Solving the One Hit Kill Issue

[KuraiWolf2014]

Just now, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

No you don't understand what I was saying. I'm not talking about tank frames, and I rarely tank anything in any event.  I was simply saying people have the OPTION to build warframes (NOT TANKS) that can survive a single hit up to level 100 and still have a viable frame build that is not based on face tanking.  And complementary to that was the idea of 'where do you draw the line' in terms of what we should be able to survive or how long we should go in endless style missions?

 Beyond some level, solving the OHK doesn't solve anything - all you ware doing is delaying the inevitable.  Who cares if its at level 100 or level 1000?  Or if you implement shield gating with an inviciblility timer of say .5sec - then you get shot by another enemy in that room full of enemies.  Speaking of which -if in your example room its a room full of enemies with bleed and toxin damage, its not really a OHK now is it?

What I'm saying is I don't see OHK as a problem in ANY mission currently in WF.  And I have no problem going hours in survivals/defenses/interceptions.  Sure I get the occasional love tap and keel over, but thats what revives are for.  and if i'm not revives, I have at least 8 free revives per mission.  And if all thats not enough, well its probably time for my next meal anyway and I'll extract.

 

 

One hit kills are a problem. Whether you want to admit it or not. It is a given that no game should have anything like a OHK. It is just a cheap way of making a game "difficult". I don't care what level it is at, it is not ok for an enemy to have the ability to kill you before you can even react. That is an issue with not just Warframe, but many games especially shooters. And sure, a room full of enemies is technically not a "one" shot kill rather a multiple shot kill (at least one bullet from each enemy). But the term is still valid as all these shots hit at nearly the same time. Taking into consideration latency (either network or local hardware/input lag) and you have a moment where you drop no sooner than you get confirmation that you are being shot. And not everyone has "8 free revives". It takes specific builds with specific gear to get that. Just because the game has a means to soften up the difficulty of a certain aspect. Doesn't mean everyone can use it in every build of theirs. What we are asking for is a change to allow for us to play with any build we want without needing to grab specific gear because meta tells us to. What is the point in having so much cool gear if most of it is useless? Why run a squishy frame when you can just go Rhino Prime and steamroll missions without breaking a sweat because you have health and armour out the wazoo? That is no fun. And one hit kills are no fun either. And isn't that the point of video games? To have fun. Maybe you can derive fun from smacking the ugly out of an army of enemies without a problem because you run with the ultimate "eat a hailstorm of bullets and still wreck house" build. But most of us like a challenge from playing with a specific build that focuses on things other than DR. But we want a REAL challenge, not this "I shot you first therefore I win" BS. Save that crap for Call of Duty and other generic corridor shooters filled with 12 year olds.

[KuraiWolf2014]

24 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Can you please, for the love of god stop straw man my post? 

I said, and i will repeat it with bold big letters "Some people do not use Vitality, because they discredit both it and any form DR".  Please keep on repeating on loop *but my mods*.  
 
I will not indulge any more in your crusade to misread, missrepresent  and assume what people mean when they say something. 

What the heck is your problem? I am NOT misreading anything. Have you stopped to think that maybe you are saying things wrong? Of course everyone discredits vitality and DR. Because they ARE useless when the high level enemies are able to output more damage than what these things can resist. You can only reduce damage so far. I am NOT repeating "but my mods". What I AM doing is telling it to you straight. YOUR GEAR IS NOT GOING TO REACH FULL POTENTIAL WITHOUT MODS! Is that clear enough for you? Sure, mods aren't everything. But they are a VITAL component of this game. Anyone can tell you that. Trying to say that it is totally worth it to say "screw upgrading my abilities, I am going to put DR on instead" is quite frankly dumb. What it SOUNDS like you are saying is "Vitality and DR is actually useful as it DOES prevent OHK". If that is NOT what you are trying to say, then maybe you should clarify exactly WHAT you are trying to really say. It is not my fault that you didn't state things clearly enough for someone to understand over the internet. I will say, for the last time: Damage reduction is NOT going to actually do much of ANYTHING for you when fighting high level enemies as these enemies have no real cap to how deadly they can be. Eventually, you will be fighting enemies that can and will mess you up regardless of how much DR or health you have. There is a cap to how strong YOU can get, but not for how strong the enemies can get. THAT is the very point of this whole thread.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

I don't see how OHK are even a problem. If you have a properly kitted warframe, there isn't anything sub level 100 that can OHK any frame even a squishy one. (obviously if you build some meta banshee w/300 health&shields so you can have crazy resonating quake  or other meta frame build for example, you can be one shot - but thats the gamble you made with the build in exchange for map wiping)

Over 100 whats the point? There has to be something to keep us from going on 24hour survivals.  And if its not a OHK at level 200, it'll be something at level 300, or 500, or 5000.  

As for accuracy, the majority of the times I'm killed (excluding self-kills with zarr/angstrum/lenz which is actually the most of my deaths lol) on very high level missions, the enemy that killed me wasn't even aiming at me but at a teammate behind me or I zigged when I should have zagged.

And we get so many revives - team revives, sacrifice/prime regen, arcane revives, the 3 starter revives... who cares about 1 death?

 

 

A level 100 bombard deals 1064.46227 damage with his ogris rocket. I did this using the base damage of an AT Ogris Rocket as shown in a wiki and scaling it up to level 100. This damage is not enough to wipe out a warframe in a single shot with the right mod setup, but it does only leave a nova or banshee with only 500 health if they had redirection AND vitality on, which most builds have neither. A good surviving banshee build with vitality and quick thinking on can have 1000 ehp from health and shields, then an 1800 ehp buffer from quick thinking, though this still staggers you. This means a single shot WILL kill you no matter what without quick thinking, but even then, the stagger from QT would most likely kill you too, considering bombards fire rockets at 1 pure second, while the stagger lasts 1.5 seconds, thus you WILL die. A level 100 Corrupted Bombard on MoT does 4 times this damage which will one shot every single warframe without using abilities, even valkyr prime cannot withstand the damage without ability use. A level 9999 Corrupted Bombard on MoT deals 5700247.64 damage with just the AoE from his rocket. That's the damage problem in game. Even at sortie levels, there are enemies that will OHKO you, or just by their single shot, they cause an effect that guarantees your demise not far afterwards.

Edited November 5, 2017 by (PS4)Crixus044

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

2 minutes ago, KuraiWolf2014 said:

 There is a cap to how strong YOU can get, but not for how strong the enemies can get. THAT is the very point of this whole thread.

So the whole point of this thread is you want to be able to run missions forever?  We can one shot enemies up to obscene levels (and this without covert lethality) - whats so wrong with them having a little fun once in a while? 

As for OHK not belonging in any game - um its in almost every game - from the earliest pong (you miss the ball, point over). And what would pacman be if the ghost couldn't hit him once? We have so many ways to avoid getting hit in the first place from stealth to CC we don't even need all the revives we have. And yet we have those too. 

As for my style its certainly not 

Quote

Maybe you can derive fun from smacking the ugly out of an army of enemies without a problem because you run with the ultimate "eat a hailstorm of bullets and still wreck house" build. 

I dont do tank builds (well I have a chroma and innaros if I want to). I have no suvivability mods on quite a few of my frames like equinox, volt, banshee etc and have no problem doing 3hr runs with them.

as for

Quote

And not everyone has "8 free revives". 

Its available to everyone - if they choose not to use it thats their problem.

All I'm saying is I (me - myself - and my opinion) dont think the OHK is a huge problem in WF.  I would much rather them focus on bug fixing, game economy balancing, new content etc than this.  And to make matters worse, in this thread you've mixed in shield bypassing DoT effects with OHK , and given examples of being in hordes of enemies where even if you stop the OHK, you just dead anyway.  

 

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

 A level 9999 Corrupted Bombard on MoT deals 5700247.64 damage with just the AoE from his rocket. That's the damage problem in game. Even at sortie levels, there are enemies that will OHKO you, or just by their single shot, they cause an effect that guarantees your demise not far afterwards.

So - you want to be immortal, and think its reasonable we should be able to face tank level 9999 enemies AND you want to prevent not just the OHK but also the MHK (multi hit kill).  Gotcha.

 

[BlackCoMerc]

11 minutes ago, KuraiWolf2014 said:

What the heck is your problem? I am NOT misreading anything. Have you stopped to think that maybe you are saying things wrong? Of course everyone discredits vitality and DR. Because they ARE useless when the high level enemies are able to output more damage than what these things can resist. You can only reduce damage so far. I am NOT repeating "but my mods". What I AM doing is telling it to you straight. YOUR GEAR IS NOT GOING TO REACH FULL POTENTIAL WITHOUT MODS! Is that clear enough for you? Sure, mods aren't everything. But they are a VITAL component of this game. Anyone can tell you that. Trying to say that it is totally worth it to say "screw upgrading my abilities, I am going to put DR on instead" is quite frankly dumb. What it SOUNDS like you are saying is "Vitality and DR is actually useful as it DOES prevent OHK". If that is NOT what you are trying to say, then maybe you should clarify exactly WHAT you are trying to really say. It is not my fault that you didn't state things clearly enough for someone to understand over the internet. I will say, for the last time: Damage reduction is NOT going to actually do much of ANYTHING for you when fighting high level enemies as these enemies have no real cap to how deadly they can be. Eventually, you will be fighting enemies that can and will mess you up regardless of how much DR or health you have. There is a cap to how strong YOU can get, but not for how strong the enemies can get. THAT is the very point of this whole thread.

This isn't far off. The last two sentences tell the tale.

While this began as an exercise in prevention of OHK, it has - perhaps inevitably - evolved into discussion of the lack of balance inherent in late game. And in the game in general.

Which is the reason I advocate for a cap on grunt/trash mob enemies. Crewmen and Lancers shouldn't have a lvl 50 variant. They're trash mobs.

If you cap trash mobs, then you get rid of a ton of OHK issues by eliminating the "death of a thousand cuts" OHK situation. 

This is the situation where 50 level 50 enemies all shot you with near 100% accuracy, half causing Slash procs and a third with Puncture procs. It not one hit - technically. But that technicality doesn't matter when it still only takes 0.2 seconds to happen.

This is a direct result of scaling. Cap trash mobs, and it goes away. Snipers, Lancers, butchers, Heavy Gunner, Crewmen, moa...these don't need to be high ranking, deadly enemies at high levels.

If you want deadly dangerous enemies at higher levels, you have Bombard, Nox, Red Crewmen and even Proxies. There's a reason that ARPG games have groups of squishy trash mobs late game, with some tough mini bosses mixing in. It's because, if every enemy is a mini boss...the player will just roll over and die

Warframe demonstrates this in Sorties, and in PoE, on high level missions, as the enemy ranges and lack of walls scale up deadliness in a way devs clearly did.not anticipate.

So...stop scaling trash mobs. Just start there.

 

[DatDarkOne]

12 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

given examples of being in hordes of enemies where even if you stop the OHK, you just dead anyway.  

This is where I have run into the problem on the Plains.  The seemingly unlimited range the enemies have to snipe you while having increased accuracy makes this worse at lower levels than previously experienced.  Add in that this is happening from every direction except below you.  Unless you mod for extreme range on Enemy radar, you will not any idea where that one-shot is coming from.  

In the Plains you no longer have walls or hallways to limit the number of enemies targeting you like you do in tile based missions.  As I said before, PoE shows just how much of a problem this is more so than ever before.  BlackCoMerc's suggestions make perfect since in this regard.  Currently in PoE the only way that I've found to avoid it is solo mode using Ivara.  I previously tried it with Titania and was still getting sniped while in RW mode once I got past T3 Bounty levels.  Please note that there are currently five (5) bounty levels in PoE that all scale.  

You will see once PoE update hits on consoles.  :D

[KuraiWolf2014]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

So the whole point of this thread is you want to be able to run missions forever?  We can one shot enemies up to obscene levels (and this without covert lethality) - whats so wrong with them having a little fun once in a while? 

As for OHK not belonging in any game - um its in almost every game - from the earliest pong (you miss the ball, point over). And what would pacman be if the ghost couldn't hit him once? We have so many ways to avoid getting hit in the first place from stealth to CC we don't even need all the revives we have. And yet we have those too. 

As for my style its certainly not 

I dont do tank builds (well I have a chroma and innaros if I want to). I have no suvivability mods on quite a few of my frames like equinox, volt, banshee etc and have no problem doing 3hr runs with them.

as for

Its available to everyone - if they choose not to use it thats their problem.

All I'm saying is I (me - myself - and my opinion) dont think the OHK is a huge problem in WF.  I would much rather them focus on bug fixing, game economy balancing, new content etc than this.  And to make matters worse, in this thread you've mixed in shield bypassing DoT effects with OHK , and given examples of being in hordes of enemies where even if you stop the OHK, you just dead anyway.  

 

You have got to be trolling. There is no way in hell you are going to solo 80+ survival missions without encountering OHK unless you mod for DR. What I am getting at is we shouldn't be forced to "go DR or go home" all because we want to play a high level mission. Meta is controlling this game way too much. Its like "You don't like getting murdered by hordes of ridiculous damage slinging enemies? Well too bad! Build for DR or suck it up and go play with all the MR1 noobs." That is exactly how you are coming off. As someone who doesn't care that the game has broken scaling that results in players getting stomped the moment they get into high level play. You don't experience the issue, so therefore it doesn't exist right? Wrong! Just because you don't THINK its a problem doesn't mean that it really isn't a problem. Also, sure, anyone can get the 8 revives if they want. But that doesn't mean that they SHOULD! There are technically better builds out there that DON'T have access to 8 revives. What if I want to make a build capable of clearing whole rooms with a single ability use? Does that mean that I should be forced to SPAM my room clearing ability just to survive in high level missions? No! Especially since that won't allow any room for proper strategic use of abilities. It will just result in my energy pool being used up just when I need it the most. There is more to this game than shear damage numbers. And that is exactly what this "OHK" stuff is about. We need DR to survive potential OHK attacks. But then we loose potential for anything other than DR. The more we pour into DR, the less we have for other very important things. Why can't you see this? We are not just some bunch of whiny noobs who can't adapt to the game. We are (at least I am) veteran Warframe players who have been dealing with BS since the beginning. DE has been working tirelessly to fix these very issues we are complaining about, but people like you are all like "Nah, its fine. You don't know what you are saying." which is holding back real progress.

[motorfirebox]

33 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

So - you want to be immortal, and think its reasonable we should be able to face tank level 9999 enemies AND you want to prevent not just the OHK but also the MHK (multi hit kill).  Gotcha.

 

If you can't make your point without engaging in wild hyperbole, then you may need to re-examine the point you're trying to make. Stop this clownishness.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

9 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

So - you want to be immortal, and think its reasonable we should be able to face tank level 9999 enemies AND you want to prevent not just the OHK but also the MHK (multi hit kill).  Gotcha.

 

Absolutely not. Don't try to pull the argument away from the meaning. All I'm showing is straight up numbers, the facts. Very little meaning behind it other than the correction that sortie level enemies cannot 1 hit kill you, or at least guarantee your death. I'm also showing just how far enemy damage scaling goes when it comes to the extremes your mentioning. Also, fyi, there are immortal frames. Wukong being chief among them, but a god tier rhino build with the right team synergy MIGHT be able to tank that level of damage. Also, a good team comp revolving around chroma WILL actually out-tank this level of damage.

As someone who's actually gone this far into a mission, where I would be fighting level 9999 enemies (RIP Void T4 Interception intense scaling) I can tell you that the damage scaling aspect of this game can be ignored completely, just having a good team of players with synergistic builds will do the trick. Now what does that mean for damage scaling? Does that mean damage scaling is fine? No. Because for those who don't run ultra builds, don't corner hug, or don't mash their movement buttons like a hot potato, or prefer to do solo gameplay with anyone else other than an invisible or an immortal warframe, they can barely pass level 100 without instant death, thus, I can say that damage scaling does need a cap. I think second sortie level (80) is a good point to cap damage scaling, or at least cap exponential damage scaling, and from then on, have linear damage scaling.

[BlackCoMerc]

17 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is where I have run into the problem on the Plains.  The seemingly unlimited range the enemies have to snipe you while having increased accuracy makes this worse at lower levels than previously experienced.  Add in that this is happening from every direction except below you.  Unless you mod for extreme range on Enemy radar, you will not any idea where that one-shot is coming from.  

In the Plains you no longer have walls or hallways to limit the number of enemies targeting you like you do in tile based missions.  As I said before, PoE shows just how much of a problem this is more so than ever before.  BlackCoMerc's suggestions make perfect since in this regard.  Currently in PoE the only way that I've found to avoid it is solo mode using Ivara.  I previously tried it with Titania and was still getting sniped while in RW mode once I got past T3 Bounty levels.  Please note that there are currently five (5) bounty levels in PoE that all scale.  

You will see once PoE update hits on consoles.  :D

And that Tier 5 is utter misery. Everything hits with near perfect accuracy. Half of it is lethal to nom-Rhino/Valkyr in 2 seconds, and the other stun locks you so the first half can hit.

All while Mortars are raining down from outside the "mission zones" DE borrowed from Ubisoft (which they got for cheap because their fans hate them too).

Capping Grunts makes this go away. If Sniper, Lancer, Butcher and Gunner are capped at 25-30 everywhere, and Bombard and the Tuskers and Noxes are NOT capped...then Grunts stay dangerous IN GROUPS but die quickly enough that players can focus on Mini Bosses like we should.

Also...at the risk of derailment central...if DE cap grunts, Nullifier needs to go. Give his Blue dome to Comba WITHOUT the bullet proofing. Create a Green Done and give that to Scramba so we KNOW which effect we are under AND it's radius.

With Trash Mobs capped, the whole idea is to buff Mini Bosses a bit more, because now, we can FOCUS on them. Nullifier completely invalidates this premise with the utterly binary focal shift his presence demands, specifically: 

IfNullifier = No, Priority = Mini-boss/Toughest enemy.

If Nullifier = Yes, Priority = Nullifier.

That HAS to go.

And for God sake, consider dropping Hyekka Master. I'm tired of slaughtering animals in games. But if you must keep His Royal Annoyance, with the armored tank top...CAP HIS LEVEL. The flamethrower he wields is, beyond level 40, the most dangerous anti-frame weapon in the game. To call this uninteresting is a massive understatement.

Edited November 5, 2017 by BlackCoMerc

[Ardhanarishvara]

5 hours ago, Kalvorax said:

one other thing i would like to add is the bloody Armor scaling. I'm fine with shields and health scaling as we DO have proper means to lower them easily thru status, but Armor is a complete joke with Corrossive being so useless its not even funny (Due to the NEED for High Fire Rate weapons ON TOP OF CP).

Armour scaling isn't an issue for trash mobs. They die instantly with any decent build unless they hit like level 400, even with armour scaling. It's the Hyekka Masters, Heavy Gunners, Nox, Bombards and Napalms that are over the top. But even then, there's ways to bypass armour. A lot of ways, in fact. Several of them not even being particularly difficult.

The issue is, they're mostly related to using certain abilities or melee, but people like to ignore those. Oberon's ability to strip armour? Why mention that? Just bring CP! Frost's ability to strip armour? Why mention that? Just bring CP! Fracturing Crush + Polarize? Seeking Shuriken? Fatal Teleport? Naaaaah. Who cares that Radiation has a damage bonus against Alloy Armour? Oy. Shattering Impact, a mod that directly affects base armour, with high attack speed weapons like nunchaku or burst fire melee like Sarpa that also does a tonne of slash and has innate blast procs in close range? Naaaah.

Slash procs ignore armour because they do finisher damage, and if you combine it with Viral it is a very potent combination. All Dual Swords do guaranteed slash procs on ground finishers (Twin Basolk being a notable example due to being very easy to build for blast/corrosive on EVERY SINGLE HIT), and recently a new stance was released that causes slash and impact procs no matter what Dual Swords or elements you use. Finisher states cause you to ignore armour - this can be done by Naramon Dashing through enemies, using Zakti to shoot an enemy then closing in and performing a finisher while they're staggered, or using the aerial shield throw of the new Sigma & Octantis to unbalance enemies at range. We have more options than ever to completely remove the issue of armour sitting at our fingertips and people just ignore it. It feels very much like the issue of Universal Vacuum - people are lazy. Why invest into methods to avoid or minimize armour if you can just negate it outright by bringing 3-4 Corrosive Projections? There are weapons that completely delete armour with stupid numbers of corrosive procs pretty much instantly, like Pox or Torid for example. Playstyles that do so much damage with even just a little coordination or planning that armour becomes a non-issue. And people still treat it like it's something plaguing the game instead of a challenge they're meant to overcome with the myriad tools they've been given.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Ardhanarishvara

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

And that Tier 5 is utter misery. Everything hits with near perfect accuracy. Half of it is lethal to nom-Rhino/Valkyr in 2 seconds, and the other stun licks you so the first half can hit.

All while Mortars are raining down from outside the "mission zones" DE borrowed from Ubisoft (which they got for cheap because their fans hate them too).

Tier 5 is what made me start playing in groups for those bounties.  Just because I got tired of getting all the way to the 5th stage in the Bounty only to have the damn target get overwhelmed with enemy fire from all directions at ranges greater than 100 meters.  

Now I will admit that I do find doing the T5 Bounties an interesting personal goal to complete solo.  They can also become a royal pain quite quickly and easily.  Mostly because every enemy at all ranges are lvl 100 tanks that take forever to kill while doing insane damage.  If not to me directly then to the defense target.  LOL, and that's not even including the flying enemies.  LOL

[BlackCoMerc]

7 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Armour scaling isn't an issue for trash mobs. They die instantly with any decent build unless they hit like level 400, even with armour scaling. It's the Hyekka Masters, Heavy Gunners, Nox, Bombards and Napalms that are over the top. But even then, there's ways to bypass armour. A lot of ways, in fact. Several of them not even being particularly difficult.

The issue is, they're mostly related to using certain abilities or melee, but people like to ignore those. Oberon's ability to strip armour? Why mention that? Just bring CP! Frost's ability to strip armour? Why mention that? Just bring CP! Fracturing Crush + Polarize? Seeking Shuriken? Fatal Teleport? Naaaaah. Who cares that Radiation has a damage bonus against Alloy Armour? Oy. Shattering Impact, a mod that directly affects base armour, with high attack speed weapons like nunchaku or burst fire melee like Sarpa that also does a tonne of slash and has innate blast procs in close range? Naaaah.

Slash procs ignore armour because they do finisher damage, and if you combine it with Viral it is a very potent combination. All Dual Swords do guaranteed slash procs on ground finishers (Twin Basolk being a notable example due to being very easy to build for blast/corrosive on EVERY SINGLE HIT), and recently a new stance was released that causes slash and impact procs no matter what Dual Swords or elements you use. Finisher states cause you to ignore armour - this can be done by Naramon Dashing through enemies, using Zakti to shoot an enemy then closing in and performing a finisher while they're staggered, or using the aerial shield throw of the new Sigma & Octantis to unbalance enemies at range. We have more options than ever to completely remove the issue of armour sitting at our fingertips and people just ignore it. It feels very much like the issue of Universal Vacuum - people are lazy. Why invest into methods to avoid or minimize armour if you can just negate it outright by bringing 3-4 Corrosive Projections? There are weapons that completely delete armour with stupid numbers of corrosive procs pretty much instantly, like Pox or Torid for example. Playstyles that do so much damage with even just a little coordination or planning that armour becomes a non-issue. And people still treat it like it's something plaguing the game instead of a challenge they're meant to overcome with the myriad tools they've been given.

To be fair, though...a lot of that has an RNG chance of working.

"Maybe" isn't a tactical choice.

Edit: my girl and I like 2x CP + Coaction Drift, plus Avalanche.

Edited November 5, 2017 by BlackCoMerc

[phoenix1992]

1 hour ago, KuraiWolf2014 said:

What the heck is your problem? I am NOT misreading anything. Have you stopped to think that maybe you are saying things wrong? Of course everyone discredits vitality and DR. Because they ARE useless when the high level enemies are able to output more damage than what these things can resist. You can only reduce damage so far. I am NOT repeating "but my mods". What I AM doing is telling it to you straight. YOUR GEAR IS NOT GOING TO REACH FULL POTENTIAL WITHOUT MODS! Is that clear enough for you? Sure, mods aren't everything. But they are a VITAL component of this game. Anyone can tell you that. Trying to say that it is totally worth it to say "screw upgrading my abilities, I am going to put DR on instead" is quite frankly dumb. What it SOUNDS like you are saying is "Vitality and DR is actually useful as it DOES prevent OHK". If that is NOT what you are trying to say, then maybe you should clarify exactly WHAT you are trying to really say. It is not my fault that you didn't state things clearly enough for someone to understand over the internet. I will say, for the last time: Damage reduction is NOT going to actually do much of ANYTHING for you when fighting high level enemies as these enemies have no real cap to how deadly they can be. Eventually, you will be fighting enemies that can and will mess you up regardless of how much DR or health you have. There is a cap to how strong YOU can get, but not for how strong the enemies can get. THAT is the very point of this whole thread.

My problem is that you push opinions without any context, examples and credentials for the golden truth.

"everyone will descredit DR"

Do you even know what are the forms of DR in the game?

Do you know that a Zephyr (one of the frames without the least amount of armor in game) can survive 2-3 hits from level 130 eximus corrupted bombard, without using any abilities?

People don't use DR because of several reasons :

1. Because it is co op game, and expect someone will revive them.
2. Even if no one revives them you have 4-6 revives per mission.
3. DR is not Damage prevention, so you need to use tools for sustain, something that not all frames have and tunnel vision damage dealers won't pick up for gear slot.
4. It is a type of gameplay that requires preparation, map awareness and experience.

This is not even checking on mechanics that Must be death traps.  

But sorry, my bad - I assumed that if someone wants to speak on a topic, he is well prepared for it, instead of using caps lock and putting opinions as if they are facts.

[Ardhanarishvara]

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

To be fair, though...a lot of that has an RNG chance of working.

"Maybe" isn't a tactical choice.

Absolutely none of what I listed is RNG. At all. Pox/Torid will remove armour completely within the span of 3 seconds, even from a 135 Kuva Napalm. Even work for groups and can also pair with Blast CC. Dual Blade ground finishers doing slash procs is not RNG. Carving Mantis doing slash procs is not RNG. With the changes to melee combo duration that Naramon 2.0 brings to the table, there are now dozens of weapons that can hit darn near 100% status chance very easily through use of Drifting Contact + Weeping Wounds, like Sarpa for example that hits like 95% at 3.5x combo multiplier with only toxin/cold dual stat mods, or Lesion that hits it easily by 3x with ONLY a cold dual stat. And that's only if you don't bother with using Naramon Dashes to open the enemy up to finishers in the first place. Sarpa WILL cause Blast Procs within a certain range if you use the charge attack, which doesn't even require that you specifically equip melee, the very same charge attack that can cause up to five separate procs at 3.5x multiplier of slash and whatever else you slap on. I even like to run Shattering Impact with it so it's sapping +30 base armour each time on top of the blast stunlocking. Zakti or Octantis causing finisher states is not RNG. Oberon slapping off all armour in two Reckonings is not RNG. Frost deleting all armour for a significant period of time with only one Avalanche is not RNG.

It only becomes 'maybe' if you're not familiar with the systems inherent. I don't suggest 'maybe' solutions.

[Ardhanarishvara]

12 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Do you know that a Zephyr (one of the frames without the least amount of armor in game) can survive 2-3 hits from level 130 eximus corrupted bombard, without using any abilities?

On the subject of Zephyr, I'd just like to add a fun fact: Aviator is an exilus mod and applies to shields. You're essentially giving the regenerating health type damage reduction. I've found that even up against Level 135 Kuva Napalms, as long as I'm not at the point of impact, and have full shields with Redirection, I'll survive the AoE damage with some shields to spare, although a second AoE in close range tends to finish me off. Combine that with Napalms literally not being able to score direct hits while under Turbulence and you've got a lot of protection from that as long as there aren't TWO Napalms spamming. It ends up being the slash procs from mooks that'll do you in, but you can just as easily see the screen flash and hear the slash noise when they happen, and transfer into Operator to render your 'frame invulnerable while you wait it out in the Squatzone.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, Ardhanarishvara said:

On the subject of Zephyr, I'd just like to add a fun fact: Aviator is an exilus mod and applies to shields. You're essentially giving the regenerating health type damage reduction. I've found that even up against Level 135 Kuva Napalms, as long as I'm not at the point of impact, and have full shields with Redirection, I'll survive the AoE damage with some shields to spare, although a second AoE in close range tends to finish me off. Combine that with Napalms literally not being able to score direct hits while under Turbulence and you've got a lot of protection from that as long as there aren't TWO Napalms spamming. It ends up being the slash procs from mooks that'll do you in, but you can just as easily see the screen flash and hear the slash noise when they happen, and transfer into Operator to render your 'frame invulnerable while you wait it out in the Squatzone.

Hush, don't speak of non meta frames and builds, otherwise Warframe will implode.

What is next, speaking of Sancti Magistar? 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

10 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Armour scaling isn't an issue for trash mobs. They die instantly with any decent build unless they hit like level 400, even with armour scaling. It's the Hyekka Masters, Heavy Gunners, Nox, Bombards and Napalms that are over the top. But even then, there's ways to bypass armour. A lot of ways, in fact. Several of them not even being particularly difficult.

The issue is, they're mostly related to using certain abilities or melee, but people like to ignore those. Oberon's ability to strip armour? Why mention that? Just bring CP! Frost's ability to strip armour? Why mention that? Just bring CP! Fracturing Crush + Polarize? Seeking Shuriken? Fatal Teleport? Naaaaah. Who cares that Radiation has a damage bonus against Alloy Armour? Oy. Shattering Impact, a mod that directly affects base armour, with high attack speed weapons like nunchaku or burst fire melee like Sarpa that also does a tonne of slash and has innate blast procs in close range? Naaaah.

Slash procs ignore armour because they do finisher damage, and if you combine it with Viral it is a very potent combination. All Dual Swords do guaranteed slash procs on ground finishers (Twin Basolk being a notable example due to being very easy to build for blast/corrosive on EVERY SINGLE HIT), and recently a new stance was released that causes slash and impact procs no matter what Dual Swords or elements you use. Finisher states cause you to ignore armour - this can be done by Naramon Dashing through enemies, using Zakti to shoot an enemy then closing in and performing a finisher while they're staggered, or using the aerial shield throw of the new Sigma & Octantis to unbalance enemies at range. We have more options than ever to completely remove the issue of armour sitting at our fingertips and people just ignore it. It feels very much like the issue of Universal Vacuum - people are lazy. Why invest into methods to avoid or minimize armour if you can just negate it outright by bringing 3-4 Corrosive Projections? There are weapons that completely delete armour with stupid numbers of corrosive procs pretty much instantly, like Pox or Torid for example. Playstyles that do so much damage with even just a little coordination or planning that armour becomes a non-issue. And people still treat it like it's something plaguing the game instead of a challenge they're meant to overcome with the myriad tools they've been given.

4xCP is a very specific comp that honestly feels to easy for most endurance runners. You are right that armor is not THAT big of a deal when you consider the ways we can remove it, but the fact remains that armor IS the top priority of endgame players. This by itself is the issue. It takes 58 corrosive procs to strip a level 7200 heavy gunner of her armor. Level 7200 is the enemy level you'll find after 10 hours of MoT. With a proper build, it will take 4 pox throws with the full dot effect to completely strip enemies of armor. 4!!! or 7 mutalist cernos shots, or even half a mag from the Paracyst will destroy this.

So let's go down the list of ways to ignore armor in an effective manner.

Armor Reduction: Corrosive Procs, Corrosive Projection, Hydroid Corroding Barrage, Banshee Sonic Fracture, Frost Avalanche, Mag Fracturing Crush+Polarize combo, Oberon Reckoning+Hallowed Ground, and Shattering Impact

Armor Ignore: Corrosive Damage Ignores 75% of ferrite armor. Radiation ignores 75% of alloy armor. Toxin ignores 25% of ferrite armor. Cold ignores 25% of alloy armor. Puncture ignores 50% of ferrite armor and 15% of alloy armor. Slash procs ignore 100% of armor. Finishers ignore 100% armor. Viral procs reduce health directly by 50%.

Going by this. There are hundreds of ways to bypass armor and some are extremely interesting, but as you see, other types of damage that don't have traits are at a SEVERE disadvantage, thus if there is a way to give everything a use in endgame, without ruining the enemies themselves, I think we can create a game balance that actually works.

[DatDarkOne]

41 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

But even then, there's ways to bypass armour. A lot of ways, in fact. Several of them not even being particularly difficult.

The issue is, they're mostly related to using certain abilities or melee, but people like to ignore those. Oberon's ability to strip armour? Why mention that? Just bring CP! Frost's ability to strip armour? Why mention that? Just bring CP! Fracturing Crush + Polarize? Seeking Shuriken? Fatal Teleport? Naaaaah. Who cares that Radiation has a damage bonus against Alloy Armour? Oy. Shattering Impact, a mod that directly affects base armour, with high attack speed weapons like nunchaku or burst fire melee like Sarpa that also does a tonne of slash and has innate blast procs in close range? Naaaah.

I only upvoted this because I personally think CP is overrated while also not being needed.  hehe

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Slash procs ignore 100% of armor. Finishers ignore 100% armor. Viral procs reduce health directly by 50%

Those as well or in combo with Gas are my preferred methods for ganking all enemies.  :D

Sadly, none of that helps with the scaling accuracy, damage, and range the enemies all have.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by DatDarkOne

[Ardhanarishvara]

50 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Hush, don't speak of non meta frames and builds, otherwise Warframe will implode.

What is next, speaking of Sancti Magistar? 

WELL ACTUALLY... yeah, why not? I've been thinking about it recently.

Zenurik 2.0 is actually really well suited to that. It'd be very difficult to drain energy fast enough with the Sancti Magistar to put a significant dent into what you get from Energizing Dash given the nature of hammers. It's basically a built in Life Strike, but an AoE scaling with range mods. Between Primed Reach and a good Range riven it wouldn't be particularly difficult to hit between 50m and 60m healing range. The real difficulty is overcoming the extraordinarily crap damage type that is Impact making up the majority of its damage output... at least, against armour. Corpus/Infested are kind of non-issues I find. Maybe the secret would be in Naramon Finishers, since you probably don't want to use any other weapon if you're focusing on healing output, unless hammers have some secret move that guarantees finisher states that's been hiding under my nose all this time. Then again, let's say you're pairing it with Gara, then the damage multipliers inherent to her abilities or the infinitely-scaling nature of her glass aura's damage could possibly make up for that. It's not a terrible idea, even if it's not meta.

EDIT: I started with Zenurik then leaned into Naramon. For shame.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Ardhanarishvara

[KuraiWolf2014]

6 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

My problem is that you push opinions without any context, examples and credentials for the golden truth.

"everyone will discredit DR"

Do you even know what are the forms of DR in the game?

Do you know that a Zephyr (one of the frames without the least amount of armor in game) can survive 2-3 hits from level 130 eximus corrupted bombard, without using any abilities?

People don't use DR because of several reasons :

1. Because it is co op game, and expect someone will revive them.
2. Even if no one revives them you have 4-6 revives per mission.
3. DR is not Damage prevention, so you need to use tools for sustain, something that not all frames have and tunnel vision damage dealers won't pick up for gear slot.
4. It is a type of gameplay that requires preparation, map awareness and experience.

This is not even checking on mechanics that Must be death traps.  

But sorry, my bad - I assumed that if someone wants to speak on a topic, he is well prepared for it, instead of using caps lock and putting opinions as if they are facts.

You just like being a snarky git don't you? These are not my opinions, they ARE facts. It is fact, that MOST frames and MOST builds will not survive very long in high level missions as the scaling is broken to the point where only tanks can actually survive more than 1 shot. And even then they only take like 2 shots at max. Zephyr can't survive that kind of damage without assistance, so I don't know what you are on about. I should know, as I have been running Zephyr primarily for about the past year. What BS you are spreading is the equivalent of some guy who thinks he knows everything about high level play despite relying on the same old tactic of "DR=Win". It is not all about just resisting a lot of damage. Tank or not, high DR means nothing late game when everything can grind your frame into dust faster than your computer can render how badly your butt got kicked. It takes about 16ms to render a single frame at 60fps or about 6.9, let's call it 7, to render at 144fps (the same as my monitor's refresh rate) and 33ms at 30fps. At high levels, you can take a lethal amount of damage all within the span of about 2ms if you come face to face with these "scaled into oblivion" enemies. So that means it takes longer for your PC to render the aftermath of a high level ROFLstomp than for said stomp to actually happen. Also, just because this game is co op centered, doesn't mean we should be forced to go co op. I personally like to play solo. There is nothing wrong with that is there? Shouldn't I be allowed to kick back in solo with a squishy frame and have some fun? And preparation, map awareness and experience have nothing to do with DR. It is more like damage avoidance. Avoid getting hit by using cover and movement effectively, and you will survive. Except in the situation where you are surrounded by 100% accurate enemies that do way too much damage for their rank so when you peek out of cover for even a moment, you immediately eat lead and die. The insane accuracy, combined with the BS damage, leads to more death than you can shake a stick at.

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, KuraiWolf2014 said:

Except in the situation where you are surrounded by 100% accurate enemies that do way too much damage for their rank so when you peek out of cover for even a moment, you immediately eat lead and die. The insane accuracy, combined with the BS damage, leads to more death than you can shake a stick at.

This part needed to be quoted and seen separately for emphasis.    :D

[Ardhanarishvara]

11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I only upvoted this because I personally think CP is overrated while also not being needed.  hehe

Those as well or in combo with Gas are my preferred methods for ganking all enemies.  :D

Sadly, none of that helps with the scaling accuracy, damage, and range the enemies all have.  

Some situational abilities can have a direct effect on accuracy. For example, Titania's Dust buff will reduce accuracy of all enemies within 30m by 50%, and she herself has a 50% evasion bonus that makes several shots simply... not affect her, phasing through harmlessly. I wish a future potential rework would allow for Tribute's auras to scale with ability mods. Though ultimately this doesn't really affect her ability to survive a 135 Kuva Napalm's gosh darn 10m radius aoe of death. Though simply keeping away from surfaces and moving around tends to do that fine as long as you're not in enclosed spaces. I used to run Corrosive/Blast for her Dex Pixia, and that could take down a 135KN with two magazines with some added CC but between her 1 and 3, or just using her 2 for a momentary knockdown on priority targets, I've found that to be less effective than Viral/Radation to pair with her Dex Pixia's strong affinity for slash procs. I can take down a 135KN with just one magazine and a little bit of slash proc DoT magic as long as I hit his head consistently. It's very nice.

[DatDarkOne]

15 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

For example, Titania's Dust buff will reduce accuracy of all enemies within 30m by 50%, and she herself has a 50% evasion bonus that makes several shots simply... not affect her, phasing through harmlessly.

This and 

15 minutes ago, Ardhanarishvara said:

Though simply keeping away from surfaces and moving around tends to do that fine as long as you're not in enclosed spaces.

This don't mean jack !@#$ while in the Plains.  Trust me on this.  I know this for a fact.  Titania is pretty much my second most used frame after Ivara. 

Once you get past T3 Bounty level enemies, their accuracy and range go through the roof.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by DatDarkOne
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