Can Universal Vacuum just happen already?

[Top_Kekkonen]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Again, you claim that vacuum is important just because it's vacuum. 

What exactly do you need to vacuum loot for?

Credits? Ammo? Orbs? Mods? Resources? Are people really hurting for these things during a mission? That's where my disconnect with the NEED is. You get enough of those things by ignoring the loot without vacuum.

78% picked vacuum over any other sentinel quirk/ability. That proves that most people prefer gameplay over janitorframe. It's just as simple as that. It comes down to personal opinion.

So why wouldn't you want your fellow players to have more freedom of choice. Univac will not negatively effect you. Hek! if anything you would benefit, if more people use kavats and kubrows the more DE will look at them and improve them.

[Top_Kekkonen]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Again, you claim that vacuum is important just because it's vacuum. 

What exactly do you need to vacuum loot for?

Credits? Ammo? Orbs? Mods? Resources? Are people really hurting for these things during a mission? That's where my disconnect with the NEED is. You get enough of those things by ignoring the loot without vacuum. Vacuum is helpful, but hoarding should remain a personal choice.

The fact that 78% of people used carrier only tells me that the average player just follows status quo. 

I'd rather see people educated on the fact that they don't need vacuum and other pets are indeed very valuable. For instance, Sahasa actually creates drops reliably and works great with conversion mods

So you just see vacuum users as plebeian drones with no agency. Nice dude, keep up being positive.

Everytime I have vacuum while my teammate has a kavat or kubrow, I always end up picking up much more then them. And no, I don't use ammo hungry weapons and I'm not playing Nekros when that happens.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Top_Kekkonen

[Top_Kekkonen]

37 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Again, you claim that vacuum is important just because it's vacuum. 

What exactly do you need to vacuum loot for?

Credits? Ammo? Orbs? Mods? Resources? Are people really hurting for these things during a mission? That's where my disconnect with the NEED is. You get enough of those things by ignoring the loot without vacuum. Vacuum is helpful, but hoarding should remain a personal choice.

The fact that 78% of people used carrier only tells me that the average player just follows status quo. 

I'd rather see people educated on the fact that they don't need vacuum and other pets are indeed very valuable. For instance, Sahasa actually creates drops reliably and works great with conversion mods

So you just see vacuum users as plebeians drones with no agency. Nice dude, keep up being positive.

Everytime I have vacuum while my teammate has a kavat or kubrow, I always end up picking up much more then them. And no, I don't use ammo hungry weapons and I'm not playing Nekros when that happens.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Top_Kekkonen
Moderator pls remove

[Top_Kekkonen]

37 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Again, you claim that vacuum is important just because it's vacuum. 

What exactly do you need to vacuum loot for?

Credits? Ammo? Orbs? Mods? Resources? Are people really hurting for these things during a mission? That's where my disconnect with the NEED is. You get enough of those things by ignoring the loot without vacuum. Vacuum is helpful, but hoarding should remain a personal choice.

The fact that 78% of people used carrier only tells me that the average player just follows status quo. 

I'd rather see people educated on the fact that they don't need vacuum and other pets are indeed very valuable. For instance, Sahasa actually creates drops reliably and works great with conversion mods.

So you just see vacuum users as plebeians drones with no agency. Nice dude, keep up being positive.

Everytime I have vacuum while my teammate has a kavat or kubrow, I always end up picking up much more then them. And no, I don't use ammo hungry weapons and I'm not playing Nekros when that happens.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Top_Kekkonen
Moderator pls remove

[Top_Kekkonen]

37 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Again, you claim that vacuum is important just because it's vacuum. 

What exactly do you need to vacuum loot for?

Credits? Ammo? Orbs? Mods? Resources? Are people really hurting for these things during a mission? That's where my disconnect with the NEED is. You get enough of those things by ignoring the loot without vacuum. Vacuum is helpful, but hoarding should remain a personal choice.

The fact that 78% of people used carrier only tells me that the average player just follows status quo. 

I'd rather see people educated on the fact that they don't need vacuum and other pets are indeed very valuable. For instance, Sahasa actually creates drops reliably and works great with conversion mods.

So you just see vacuum users as plebeian drones with no agency. Nice dude, keep up being positive.

Everytime I have vacuum while my teammate has a kavat or kubrow, I always end up picking up much more then them. And no, I don't use ammo hungry weapons and I'm not playing Nekros when that happens.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Top_Kekkonen
Moderator pls remove

[Crowshrink]

18 minutes ago, Top_Kekkonen said:

 

So why wouldn't you want your fellow players to have more freedom of choice.

This is what I mean! Do these people not want their fellow tenno to enjoy themselves more? Why wouldn't they want to improve the game overall?

[SilvaDreams]

1 minute ago, Crowshrink said:

This is what I mean! Do these people not want their fellow tenno to enjoy themselves more? Why wouldn't they want to improve the game overall?

I don't need vacuum to enjoy myself. I didn't even know about carrier for the longest time after coming back.

If anything a lack of vacuum teaches players better habits other than bum rushing the level.

[Top_Kekkonen]

3 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

I don't need vacuum to enjoy myself. I didn't even know about carrier for the longest time after coming back.

If anything a lack of vacuum teaches players better habits other than bum rushing the level.

"teach" I'm playing a video game, I do not need to be thought something. And how do you define "better habits"?

[Crowshrink]

11 minutes ago, SilvaDreams said:

 

If anything a lack of vacuum teaches players better habits other than bum rushing the level.

Bum rushing in a fast-paced looter-shooter, who would have thought?

[GreyEnneract]

If you don't want univac in the game then advocate to have it removed from Archwing or else you're a hypocrite 

[GreyEnneract]

40 minutes ago, Crowshrink said:

Bum rushing in a fast-paced looter-shooter, who would have thought?

Silva already lost all credibility when he thought Archwing didn't have univac and energy regen literally for years now.

[Campaigner]

2 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

Actually no parkour keeps you alive as it reduces the enemy's aim,  standing still makes you a sitting target so you can't compare them as one is merely a utility and the other is a key game play mechanic.

Way to own yourself. Universal vacuum would therefore allow for more use of this "key game play mechanic." 

[Campaigner]

2 hours ago, SilvaDreams said:

Actually no parkour keeps you alive as it reduces the enemy's aim,  standing still makes you a sitting target so you can't compare them as one is merely a utility and the other is a key game play mechanic.

Way to own yourself. Universal vacuum would therefore allow for more use of this "key game play mechanic." 

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, Top_Kekkonen said:

Everytime I have vacuum while my teammate has a kavat or kubrow, I always end up picking up much more then them. And no, I don't use ammo hungry weapons and I'm not playing Nekros when that happens.

Exactly.... So what if you got more alloy plates and random resources? Do vets really care about that stat?

While you look at that number all proud, I'm thinking I actually got something valuable out of my pet..... Like crits, a cloak when I needed it, a reliable way to proc my conversion mod, a nullifier kill, stripped armor etc. 

That resource stat at the end of the mission is the least valuable stat to me.... And I'll still have at least half of what the top earner got, and I still have tons of resources, I still can craft almost anything instantly. So what did you truly gain by picking everything up?

Even before they made it a mod, I found other sentinels more valuable than carrier. Stuns, hypnotised enemies, scans are all more valuable than vacuum.

Don't get me wrong, I have loadouts that use vacuum, but it's for specific reasons like ammo or farming a particular rare resource.

[Top_Kekkonen]

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Exactly.... So what if you got more alloy plates and random resources? Do vets really care about that stat?

While you look at that number all proud, I'm thinking I actually got something valuable out of my pet..... Like crits, a cloak when I needed it, a reliable way to proc my conversion mod, a nullifier kill, stripped armor etc. 

That resource stat at the end of the mission is the least valuable stat to me.... And I'll still have at least half of what the top earner got, and I still have tons of resources, I still can craft almost anything instantly. So what did you truly gain by picking everything up?

Even before they made it a mod, I found other sentinels more valuable than carrier. Stuns, hypnotised enemies, scans are all more valuable than vacuum.

Don't get me wrong, I have loadouts that use vacuum, but it's for specific reasons like ammo or farming a particular rare resource.

That was a typo, I meant that I picked up more. Sry bout dat

After edit: I still need resources dude. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Top_Kekkonen
Nvm, derp

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, SilvaDreams said:

I don't need vacuum to enjoy myself. I didn't even know about carrier for the longest time after coming back.

If anything a lack of vacuum teaches players better habits other than bum rushing the level.

Better habits? I enjoy playing a hack and slash destroying enemies with my weapons. I will go play runescape of Farming Simulator 2017 if I want to be walking around for my resources and mods the whole game. 

P.S: If you don't use vacuum in Eidolon fights, you are costing your team more time. Just saying.

[Top_Kekkonen]

5 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Exactly.... So what if you got more alloy plates and random resources? Do vets really care about that stat?

While you look at that number all proud, I'm thinking I actually got something valuable out of my pet..... Like crits, a cloak when I needed it, a reliable way to proc my conversion mod, a nullifier kill, stripped armor etc. 

That resource stat at the end of the mission is the least valuable stat to me.... And I'll still have at least half of what the top earner got, and I still have tons of resources, I still can craft almost anything instantly. So what did you truly gain by picking everything up?

Even before they made it a mod, I found other sentinels more valuable than carrier. Stuns, hypnotised enemies, scans are all more valuable than vacuum.

Don't get me wrong, I have loadouts that use vacuum, but it's for specific reasons like ammo or farming a particular rare resource.

So you don't value resources? I'm 99% you're in the minority of the minority. This game isn't called grindframe for nothing. You'll never have enough resources. Univac only improves the experience while farming. And 99.999% of the player base is farming 24/7 while playing.

[Hypernaut1]

3 minutes ago, Top_Kekkonen said:

That was a typo, I meant that I picked up more. Sry bout dat

After edit: I still need resources dude. 

Do you really? Ok then, well then choosing a sentinel is a choice you make to speed that along. I can assure you that if you decide to forgo vacuum, you won't be left behind at all. It'll open up your gameplay opportunities that far outweigh hording extra resources.

But if that's your style, that's ok too. But know that's it's purely your choice and not a necessity. That's all.

If they add universal vacuum tomorrow, I wouldn't care... I'm just refuting the idea that it's necessary.

[Hypernaut1]

3 minutes ago, Top_Kekkonen said:

So you don't value resources? I'm 99% you're in the minority of the minority. This game isn't called grindframe for nothing. You'll never have enough resources. Univac only improves the experience while farming. And 99.999% of the player base is farming 24/7 while playing.

Most of the grinding in this game is for the reward you get for completing a mission, rep or leveling. Not for loot that drops.

 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 hours ago, Top_Kekkonen said:

That's hilarious if true.

"What? do people need incentives to play? PREPOSTEROUS! There shall be no looting in my game."

Yup. No Vacuum on archwings at all. You think where people got the idea of using itzal to get Eidolon cores from under the textures? It used to be just to gather some energy to use abilities in AW. You think it's funny? I suffered through this xD

4 hours ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

Well, PoE restricts altitude to @50m, so anything in and around that range would be near insta-loot. I would think a max range, on PoE, to hit about 30m. Though testing would need to be done on that. Also, the speed of the Skywing univac would need to be increased to keep up with the increased travel velocity. Else we'll have a string of loot following us through the sky, lol.

As for your question, I would hazard a guess on regular AW univac to be at barely 30m itself. You need to keep in mind that while in AW mode, your model is rendered smaller than normal. Note the size of containers compared to you. The containers did not get bigger, you got smaller, so all relative distances change due to your brain recalculating for the size-ratio. Basically, DE is tricking our brains into thinking the distances are greater. Comparing to the containers, my best guess is that size was reduced to just over 50%, so your estimate of 60m is probably correct in visual, but half that in actual ie 30m.

I actually estimated the AW vacuum range only based on regular AW shrinkage. I forgot that skywing is full warframe-sized, thank you. Then, maybe 140m for normal archwing and 35m for skywing. It's the base range of itzal's own rank 4 pull..

 

[IceColdHawk]

Am 9.11.2017 um 00:48 schrieb SpinnningSideKick:

Try an experiment.

1.)Equip your fave sentinel, give it a riven, forma it and build for damage.

2.)Take it out, kill some stuff with your sentinel. Time how long it takes. 

3.)Now! Take out any companion, build for damage with no forma. Go kill some stuff and see how long it takes your companion to kill the same stuff the sentinel did. 

 

 A fairly plain jane companion completely blows away the damage and survival potential of any sentinel. There is one good reason why to take a companion over a sentinel.

I give you my experiment:

1.) Play any sentinel (preferably with 30m range attack precept) with artax.

2.) Take it out, and enjoy it's incredible usefulness in stunlocking groups of enemies, slowmotioning them and supporting condition overload builds.

3.) Realize you never want to go back to anything else.

There are more reasons than just vacuum that speak for sentinels. Even with universal vacuum, sentinels still remain incredibly good.

Am 10.11.2017 um 15:03 schrieb Hypernaut1:

You crying about not being able to enjoy the game. Just continue using a sentinel if your enjoyment is so dependent on vacuum. And you don't have to use Carrier.

Classic "Don't like it, don't play it." argument. Why improve something when there's other games to play right? Or why improve pets and make them get played more often when people are already satisfied with sentinels? I wonder if you're active on some kind of mobile phone forums and arguing/argued against smartphones for whatever reason that doesn't affect you because anything other than simply calling someone is "pure unnecessary luxury" in your eyes while you stick to your 90s nokia phone.

Seriously though. At least try to understand WHY someone has a complaint, WHY there's so many of them, read what they've got to say and then THINK about whether it's just a positive thing or a thing that could actually ruin people's experience. CAN we improve something? Is there any good reason to be AGAINST it? Also try to COMPREHEND as to why an enourmous majority used carrier most of the time. Last but not least, REALIZE what this game is centered about (Grinding (F2P)!!!)...instead of shoving everyone into the "You're crying" drawer. When so many people are of the same opinion and and raise their concerns, they don't do it for no reason. You should really think about why that is so. It's better to learn and understand things than just being "different", defending stuff and arguing with people for no good reason.

Am 10.11.2017 um 15:12 schrieb Crowshrink:

Why must I use a sentinel to enjoy myself in the game? Why are you people so against uni-vac, I honestly don't understand what you have against improving this game.

Seems to be common forum mentality here. Not everyone but many are like that. Now if you go ingame and ask most people in there, i bet the answers will be WAY different. It's just that some people are trying very hard to find even the SLIGHTEST and TINIEST reason to be against good and greatly demanded ideas just so they can "discuss" (because everyone agreeing would be boring huh..). And then they wonder why so many "discussions" end up in flames...when logic gets thrown out the window.

vor 20 Stunden schrieb Xarteros:

but a Kubrow or Kavat are basically unkillable gods, and get infinite revives regardless.

Define "unkillable god". Because dying frequently even against lvl 40 enemies is not an "unkillable god" in my book. Specifically talking about the kavats. Haven't played kubrows for a while, raksa is cool though.

vor 20 Stunden schrieb AperoBeltaTwo:

Not a single argument against vacuum takes into consideration that vacuum is already in the game and most of the playerbase use it constantly because it makes the gameplay feel and flow objectively better. Not a single argument against vacuum takes into account that animal companions are underused exactly because they lack this essential QoL. Not a single argument against vacuum counters the fact that manual pickups halt the game into a janitor simulator.

It's hard or even impossible to create a convincing counter argument against universal vacuum even more so when it can be made OPTIONAL. I don't know how to describe it accurately. Vacuum is just good. It doesn't even hurt anyone unlike nukes, trolls or unbalanced gameplay. And for me, it allows me also to collect loot between defense waves without having to stroll across the WHOLE map. You don't even have enough time for that. No wonder so many people swear by it.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb SilvaDreams:

If anything a lack of vacuum teaches players better habits other than bum rushing the level.

Excuse me but get this outta here. Teaching habits is mainly the job of the parents, not of game developers. But if you were actually a caring person as you imply to be, you would come up with better ideas. Such as preventing people from leaving in the last second for trolling reasons in order to leave other players completely alone or implementing a punish system if you choose to change the side in the last second while other players are still on the side that you were previously on. Now that's a way of teaching habits...unlike infuriating most of the community for no good reason.

Edited November 11, 2017 by IceColdHawk

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Do you really? Ok then, well then choosing a sentinel is a choice you make to speed that along. I can assure you that if you decide to forgo vacuum, you won't be left behind at all. It'll open up your gameplay opportunities that far outweigh hording extra resources.

But if that's your style, that's ok too. But know that's it's purely your choice and not a necessity. That's all.

If they add universal vacuum tomorrow, I wouldn't care... I'm just refuting the idea that it's necessary.

The argument that "it isn't necessary" can be made by anything about this game. It isn't necessary to get riven mods. It also isn't necessary to run with EV Trinity in Affinity Farms. Vacuum is 100% completely Quality of Life, and having it exlcusive to the better companions is quite hilarious.

Sentinels don't have trash AI that constantly get killed on Sedna level planets.

Sentinels can revive the player as well as give them health and shields.

Sentinels have vacuum to pick up loot in an 11.5 meter radius.

Sentinels have unique weapons that add to niche builds (Condition Overload + Artax, Sweeper CC)

Sentinels do not need the clunky stasis mechanic and decaying health that is in my opinion more of a hassle than the entirety of the Arcane Enhancements system in the foundry.

Sentinels have Ammo mutation, scanning codex entries, and other unique and useful passives that do not work off of RNG of buffs or cooldowns.

Kubrows and Kavats are so much farther down the scale, using one is actually handicapping yourself unless you need a Smeeta for Kuva/Affinity, an Adarza for Critical hits, or a Dig Doggo for solo farming...

Edited November 11, 2017 by --Q--Voltage

[AperoBeltaTwo]

4 hours ago, CaptainJLP said:

I'm scared of a Universal Retrieve more than anything. Really, Universal Vacuum is gonna cause way too much problems with pets, For Crying out loud they can't even walk through doors!

NO! PLEASE, GOD, NO! ANYTHING BUT VACUUM ON THE PETS THEMSELVES!

UV should gather loot around Warframes. Not off the pets with their insane suicidal Ai. Nobody wants that. That would just be stupid.

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Again, you claim that vacuum is important just because it's vacuum. 

What exactly do you need to vacuum loot for?

Dude, it's like you've never played Warframe. There's a ton of weapons in the game that require a lot of ammo flow, and vacuum is the best way of retrieving both ammo and energy.

 Vacuum supports a more engaging, active and bold playstyle that would be impossible if you had to manually look for ammo of the specific type or retrieve energy pickups yourself.

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Credits? Ammo? Orbs? Mods? Resources? Are people really hurting for these things during a mission? That's where my disconnect with the NEED is. You get enough of those things by ignoring the loot without vacuum. Vacuum is helpful, but hoarding should remain a personal choice.

Also, answer a simple question: If loot isn't supposed to be picked up, then why have it in the mission in the first place? Looting is a part of gameplay. Making looting system smooth and engaging is a part of Dev's job.

 The problem with manual pickups is that they poorly fit the rest of the Warframe's gameplay. Vacuum solves this problem so people naturally lean towards a better form of gameplay.

That's why sentinels are so much more popular than pets, and that's why people want UV so much.

 Vacuum fixes the looting system's inherent problems and makes the gameplay better, more smooth and focused on action.

3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The fact that 78% of people used carrier only tells me that the average player just follows status quo. 

I'd rather see people educated on the fact that they don't need vacuum and other pets are indeed very valuable. For instance, Sahasa actually creates drops reliably and works great with conversion mods

Drop this elitist bs, please. "Average player". You are an average player, just as the rest of us.

 You can't seriously think that everyone should be reeducated into your way of playing Warframe, do you?

 

Answer a simple question: What exactly manual pickups add to the gameplay?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

15 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

It's hard or even impossible to create a convincing counter argument against universal vacuum even more so when it can be made OPTIONAL. I don't know how to describe it accurately. Vacuum is just good. It doesn't even hurt anyone unlike nukes, trolls or unbalanced gameplay. And for me, it allows me also to collect loot between defense waves without having to stroll across the WHOLE map. You don't even have enough time for that. No wonder so many people swear by it.

 Vacuum simply makes the looting system feel better in general. More coherent with the rest of the gameplay mechanics and the action-oriented nature of the game in general.

 Warframe isn't the only game with Vacuum. Check out "Nier: Automata" and "Ratchet and Clank". Both games have lots of individual loot pickups that are collected in a simple, non-interruptive way by an inbuild passive vacuum-like mechanic. Vacuum is a solution to fast-paced action games with a lot of loot pickups.

 Vacuum is just a gameplay mechanic that fixes a flawed manual looting system.

[Ryim_Drykeon]

@AperoBeltaTwo  Have a coffee and sammich and relax. Arguing with those that don't (or won't) understand basic concepts of a game is too frustrating. Just let those comments fall by the wayside.

You have come up with great points and counter-points, but this thread is getting long and I feel its going to get to a point of needing moderated soon(tm).

The only downside to universal vacuum is that it would make the Vacuum mod obsolete. Which is why DE is dragging their feet on the decision. That and the possibility that adding Universal Vacuum to Warframe may make pets less used. Which is why all the pet lovers are on about this. *shrugs* Let it go and let DE make the call. They have the info, and our feedback, and they can read and see who made a point and who was just pissing in the wind.