universal vacuum, why only in PoE?

[TheKurtiStryke]

I just recently discovered there is an universal vacuum in PoE, this is nice and useful expecially for kubrow/kavat, so please De, what about allow kubrow/kavat to use The mod "vacuum", make us able to put that darn mod on our kavat/kubrow please, this will surely heavily increase the pickrate for kavat and kubrow.
call me lazy or whatever you want, but in a game where the main thing to do is "farming" i find really boring and annoying pick up the resources one by one.

A mod/rare resource fell in a very tigh place and you can't  physically reach it and you don't have any sentinel equippedinstead, youre using a kavat/kubrow, what are you going to do?...well, if you are using mag whit greedy pull or vauban you are lucky, but otherwise?

[lightdragon64]

Actually the vacuum is in all gamemodes, all be it, the thing is only 3m. walk around slowly and you'll notice it.

[Shiichibukai]

What? They had universal vacuum already for awhile now across all sentinels already, everyones been wanting it for kubrow/kavat. You JUST now realized that? oO

[Diarmut]

It shipped with POE, it is not only enabled in POE. All warframes, regardless of location, now have a passive 3m vacuum. The reasoning behind, what I believe it to be, not putting Vacuum on pets is to balance out the utility of sentinels versus the supposed "damage" or "survivability" that pets provide.

[brawler58]

To be honest, it doesn't feel like 3m at all..

[Mixota]

Universal vacuum would be.. universal, what we have is vacuum for sentinels only (sorry, marking words a bit know this comes off a bit S#&$ty, so sorry for that part not my intention), and the reason we dont have univac.... reasons? Ive heard the argument that we would only use cats if we had univac but frankly with the introduction of sacrifice that became invalid, i would never swap out 16 freaking revives per mission with primed regen for a decent buff.

I personally used to go for the argument that it might be spaghetti code (very poorly written code) leftover from the early days so that it was impractical for the devs to actually do it, but that also became invalid with the 3m univac we have now.

So what remains is... either devs not understanding their own game and community at a level that is horrifying or just sheer malice, either case is sorta sad.

[Lion]

1 minute ago, Shichibukai88 said:

What? They had universal vacuum already for awhile now across all sentinels already, everyones been wanting it for kubrow/kavat. You JUST now realized that? oO

If the vacuum requires sentinels (nevermind the fact that companions can't use the mod) then it wouldn't be universal now would it?

 

u·ni·ver·sal

ˌyo͞onəˈvərsəl/

adjective

 

1.

of, affecting, or done by all people or things in the world or in a particular group; applicable to all cases.

"universal adult suffrage"

synonyms:

general, ubiquitous, comprehensive, common, omnipresent, all-inclusive, all-embracing, across-the-board; More

noun

2.

a person or thing having universal effect, currency, or application, in particular.

[Ceryk]

4 minutes ago, Shichibukai88 said:

What? They had universal vacuum already for awhile now across all sentinels already, everyones been wanting it for kubrow/kavat. You JUST now realized that? oO

When people say Universal Vacuum, they mean a vacuum on Warframes, not companions.

[sh00chu]

Every Warframe now has a 3 meter passive vacuum, no matter where you are. Period. If 3 meters isn't enough for you, you have the option of bringing a sentinel that is equipped with the vacuum mod.

[Lion]

3 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

Every Warframe now has a 3 meter passive vacuum, no matter where you are. Period. If 3 meters isn't enough for you, you have the option of bringing a sentinel that is equipped with the vacuum mod.

You'd be in the minority if this is how you truely feel.

I don't understand why UniVac is so complicated or gamebreaking a concept to some people. Even if DE simply let Kavats and Kubrows use Vacuum, 90% of these threads would go away, I guarantee it.

[TheKurtiStryke]

14 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

Every Warframe now has a 3 meter passive vacuum, no matter where you are. Period. If 3 meters isn't enough for you, you have the option of bringing a sentinel that is equipped with the vacuum mod.

whait wha.. every..frame now has a passive vacum?...ohhhhhh....i almost never used kavat7kubrow just for that(no vacuum).. yeah, i can finally use them without the frustation of "pick up 1 by 1".......buuut i think i  have to "craft"  new kubrow and kavat cuz the last time i went out for a walk with them,  was a veeery long  ago, now they're probably dead,not even the stasis could have saved them lol.

Edited November 8, 2017 by TheKurtiStryke

[Hypernaut1]

6 minutes ago, Aveu said:

 Even if DE simply let Kavats and Kubrows use Vacuum, 90% of these threads would go away, I guarantee it.

That's a horrible justification for changes.

[Lion]

3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That's a horrible justification for changes.

It doesn't need justification though? It's literally a problem that doesn't need to be one. Universal Vacuum doesn't hurt anyone. 

[Hypernaut1]

7 minutes ago, Aveu said:

It doesn't need justification though? It's literally a problem that doesn't need to be one. Universal Vacuum doesn't hurt anyone. 

Yeah it does. Then I can't feel superior for discovering that I don't need it.

Joking aside, making a choice to forgo a favorite like vacuum and realizing that you don't need it for your playstyle is a valuable and satisfying choice for some players. Conversely, choosing to stay exclusive to sentinels because of vacuum is also a valuable choice.

I think maybe the devs want to keep it as a choice. You don't take away choice to improve a game, especially one as non essential as vacuum. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Bao]

Universal Vacuum will always be a controversial topic, whether it's implemented fully or not. Yes, it would extremely useful to have it on Warframes, but that would invalidate the usefulness of sentinels (one freezes enemies, one hides you when enemies get close, most attack, and it would F*** up Carrier who converts unused ammo to ammo you can use.) It would also mean that Kavats and Kubrows are superior in every other way to sentinels, who bring more to the fight than just "minor CC/ammo", because of their ability to fight, to survive, and to provide the player with more use than sentinels. Then all sentinels and companions would need to be reworked to compensate for the universal vacuum (i.e. buffs are weaker, pets do less damage, sentinels need to have their abilities reworked, etc). Then there are new players who would be like "why would I even want a sentinel to do this if I just kill everything? and they only do a little bit of stuff that isn't really useful." People would just level sentinels out of sheer spite and mastery rank instead of using them for what they are. Same goes for pets.

 

Against it you get the current situation we have now - everyone complaining about no universal vacuum.

[sh00chu]

10 minutes ago, Aveu said:

You'd be in the minority if this is how you truely feel.

I don't understand why UniVac is so complicated or gamebreaking a concept to some people. Even if DE simply let Kavats and Kubrows use Vacuum, 90% of these threads would go away, I guarantee it.

If it means I'm in the minority I am totally cool with it. I am adamantly against univac as a mechanic. I get that this is a fast paced shooter/looter, but when it gets to the point where people beg for universal vacuum because 'muh lootz', and bypass every single locker in every single mission, I think it's time to pump the brakes a bit and slow players down. There is literally no tangible reward for completing missions faster outside of being able to hop back into another so you can mindlessly speed through it all over again. There is no real endgame in Warframe. It is all about the journey, as there really is no goal. If all you are doing is speeding through that journey, you are basically missing out on 99% of the game. A mechanic like universal vacuum does nothing but increase that speed, hurtling you even faster toward an empty space where actual endgame content would be.

 

[(XBOX)Deputy Facepain]

Smeeta's provide a charm buff that gives 2x resource pickups. it can double itself for about 90 seconds for x4 pickups, and then there is a chance for about 30 seconds of x8 pick ups. It's rare, but it can happen. With a booster active that's, x4-x8-x16 pick ups. Having universal vacuum would be a bit much while running a smeeta. You wouldn't really have to pay attention to which buff is currently active to cash in on crazy resource pick ups. 

Pets can provide build synergies that sentinels can't, and vice versa. Trade-offs are pretty much a staple to Warframe's gameplay. 3 meters of universal vacuum is already here, the trade-off of pet vs sentinel means less. Seems a bit greedy to need anything more. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by (XB1)Jarheadius

[Lion]

30 minutes ago, sh00chu said:

If it means I'm in the minority I am totally cool with it. I am adamantly against univac as a mechanic. I get that this is a fast paced shooter/looter, but when it gets to the point where people beg for universal vacuum because 'muh lootz', and bypass every single locker in every single mission, I think it's time to pump the brakes a bit and slow players down. There is literally no tangible reward for completing missions faster outside of being able to hop back into another so you can mindlessly speed through it all over again. There is no real endgame in Warframe. It is all about the journey, as there really is no goal. If all you are doing is speeding through that journey, you are basically missing out on 99% of the game. A mechanic like universal vacuum does nothing but increase that speed, hurtling you even faster toward an empty space where actual endgame content would be.

 

This is mathematically false. Player 1 has vacuum, gets X Resources in 10 minutes. Player 2 has no vacuum, gets X resources in 20 minutes. By that math, Player 1 can get twice as many resources as Player 2 in the same amount of time. THAT is your unarguable reward (can't say tangible though, as nothing in this game is).

Resource farming isn't supposed to be a 'journey.' Likewise, are you really on any kind of worthwhile journey if you're devoting most of your time looking for resources individually? Wouldn't it be better if you could focus on your journey and have resource gathering be an afterthought?

Endgame is what YOU make it. For me, it's hopping into a survival and seeing how ridiculously far I can the levels get into. sometimes two hundred, even three hundred. For others, the endgame is fashionframe, trading, clans, etc. But I do not consider resource farming as endgame, and I certainly do not consider it a journey.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Aveu

[Valiant]

1 hour ago, Shichibukai88 said:

What? They had universal vacuum already for awhile now across all sentinels already, everyones been wanting it for kubrow/kavat. You JUST now realized that? oO

I imagine a majority of people likely didn't notice it because they probably had vacuum equipped on their Sentinel's already.

Wouldn't really notice it otherwise as we already had something better.

Not directed towards you, but I do find it amusing how people are saying 'You didn't notice we had it already?' as if it was exceptionally obvious yet... It was only really picked up on after the dev's mentioned it in their stream. Probably were a few who did notice but I didn't see multiple threads popping up about it, which suggests the opposite.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Valiant

[sh00chu]

4 minutes ago, Aveu said:

This is mathematically false. Player 1 has vacuum, gets X Resources in 10 minutes. Player 2 has no vacuum, gets X resources in 20 minutes. By that math, Player 1 can get twice as many resources as Player 2 in the same amount of time. THAT is your unarguable reward (can't say tangible though, as nothing in this game is).

Resource farming isn't supposed to be a 'journey.' Likewise, are you really on any kind of worthwhile journey if you're devoting most of your time looking for resources individually? Wouldn't it be better if you could focus on your journey and have resource gathering be an afterthought?

Endgame is what YOU make it. For me, it's hopping into a survival and seeing how ridiculously far I can the levels get into the two, even three hundreds. For others, Endgame is fashionframe, trading, clans, etc. But I do not consider resource farming as endgame, and I certainly do not consider it a journey.

I wasn't being clear enough about the tangible reward thing. You're right, sure the resources you would obviously gain more quickly can be seen as a tangible reward. What I'm trying to get at with this point is that the resources are ultimately meaningless if their only point is to make more gear that you will then take back into the same joyless speedrunning farm. It's a forest for the trees scenario. People are so focused on chopping down all the trees that they are destroying the beautiful forest they could be exploring. 

Ultimately, I don't think I'm ever going to change anyone's mind about this, but here's the reality of the situation. Adding a universal vacuum will upset the delicate balance of the resource economy of this game. It is that very resource economy that keeps people playing the game. The easier it is for a player to acquire all the best 'stuff', the sooner they start wondering where they are supposed to use said stuff. As soon as the realization comes that it's just more of the same, only without any real tangible reward, players will grow restless and bored with the game, and eventually just stop playing. RIP Warframe. 

Saying endgame is what YOU make it is willfully ignoring the fact that this game has no OFFICIAL endgame. Nor should a game like Warframe actually have a traditional 'endgame', as that would mean that there really is an ending, and thus little reason to continue playing for the average player. Also,just randomly making up activities and challenges for yourself does not an endgame make. The whole point of a F2P online game is to keep people coming back for more. Warframe does this by having a resource economy that feeds its primary draw of crafting new and interesting gear to tackle existing content over and over so that a player can obtain the next new piece of gear. They are able to maintain this business model by making the resource gathering just difficult enough for enough players to want to spend real money to reduce that grind, so that they can continue developing new content for everyone.Adding universal vacuum would artificially speed up how fast people are able to obtain resources needed to play for free, which in turn de-incentivizes the need for people paying money to skip that gathering.

TL;DR Universal vacuum, while a nice QOL change for F2P players, is selfish and short-sighted. The only way I can see it being added without having a negative impact on the game would be to make the cost of crafting new items more expensive, effectively nullifying the benefit of univac in the first place.

 

[Shiichibukai]

1 hour ago, Aveu said:

If the vacuum requires sentinels (nevermind the fact that companions can't use the mod) then it wouldn't be universal now would it?

 

u·ni·ver·sal

ˌyo͞onəˈvərsəl/

adjective

 

1.

of, affecting, or done by all people or things in the world or in a particular group; applicable to all cases.

"universal adult suffrage"

synonyms:

general, ubiquitous, comprehensive, common, omnipresent, all-inclusive, all-embracing, across-the-board; More

noun

2.

a person or thing having universal effect, currency, or application, in particular.

Too bad thats what it is, doesnt matter what kinda meaning the word has, this IS universal vacuum as of right now.

[WindigoTG]

1 hour ago, Aveu said:

This is mathematically false. Player 1 has vacuum, gets X Resources in 10 minutes. Player 2 has no vacuum, gets X resources in 20 minutes. By that math, Player 1 can get twice as many resources as Player 2 in the same amount of time. THAT is your unarguable reward (can't say tangible though, as nothing in this game is).

Except in reality "speedrun" missions (exterminates and the like) don't have much loot to begin with, so neither player need to spend much time to pick it up. And in endless missions both players spend equal ammount of time, so there's no difference at all.

 

As a matter of fact, back in the day, when I was using a kubrow and my friend was using a carrier with vacuum, we were getting equal ammount of loot.

And more often than not I was getting more loot that him, because I was more aware of the loot around me.

[Mixota]

I mean... wut?! Speedrun mission dont have much loot to begin with? Fissures can be exterminate you know, and even if you dont speedrun, lets say youre doing a survival, unless youre scouring the ground nonstop to a degree that would make you useless to the rest of the squad youre never going to get anything near the amount of resources i am going to by just existing and having a sentinel on. With the exception of ranking them to get the MR i have never used a kavat or dog, im MR22 and have 2k hours ingame. People claiming not implementing univac is to provide players with a choice are fools, theres a reason there is literal official DE provided proof that carrier was used 98,6% of the time back when carrier was the only sentinel with vacuum even though dogs very much existed back then, the other sentinels as well.

Face it, people who are fine without vacuum are in the minority, just unfortunately the vocal minority, no univac does not provide choice, it simply forces you to use nothing but sentinels because as long as theres no univac a vast majority of the playerbase will never ever touch cats/dogs.

[Mintaro]

I just play the game and pick up loot without a need for sentinels infact i hate when you only have like 10 energy missing and it picks up the 50 orb or those sniper ammo to refill for that one bow shot.

[WindigoTG]

On 09.11.2017 at 11:17 AM, mix0ta said:

I mean... wut?! Speedrun mission dont have much loot to begin with? Fissures can be exterminate you know, and even if you dont speedrun, lets say youre doing a survival, unless youre scouring the ground nonstop to a degree that would make you useless to the rest of the squad youre never going to get anything near the amount of resources i am going to by just existing and having a sentinel on. With the exception of ranking them to get the MR i have never used a kavat or dog, im MR22 and have 2k hours ingame. People claiming not implementing univac is to provide players with a choice are fools, theres a reason there is literal official DE provided proof that carrier was used 98,6% of the time back when carrier was the only sentinel with vacuum even though dogs very much existed back then, the other sentinels as well.

Face it, people who are fine without vacuum are in the minority, just unfortunately the vocal minority, no univac does not provide choice, it simply forces you to use nothing but sentinels because as long as theres no univac a vast majority of the playerbase will never ever touch cats/dogs.

You reilize that loot drops from the enemies, so to get loot you have to be where the enemies are, right? So if you can't do two things at once in one place, then I'm afraid something else, other than the need of loot, is what makes you useless to the rest of the squad.

 

And no, fissures in exterminate missions don't make any difference. Just a few more enemies, nothing more. It's not like anyone is staying to farm fissures to kingdom come. If there is someone like that, they are in even smaller minority than those who use pets.

 

Not advocating against univac, don't really care if it will ever become a thing, don't have a space for it anyways (Hek, I put it on a sentinel only because I got annoyed of having to share weapon mods and threw away an attack precept), just saying that your "math" doesn't stack with reality, that's all.

Edited November 10, 2017 by WindigoTP