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Improving the New Player Experience


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2 minutes ago, DKCasus said:

I understand that you don't like the suggestion and that you think having inferior demo versions of weapons as loot drops would fundamentally break the game or represent some kind of sacrilege.

That's perfectly alright. I don't personally agree at all - and I don't see any kind of argument in your opposition.

But I recognise your position and thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

My issue is not with adding more mk-1 to weapons to the game, my issue is with your suggestion of adding weapon drops and random stats to weapons. This is a large topic that I frankly can't fully cover typing on my phone, but when I get home, I will plan on writing up a more in-depth rebuttal.

The core point I want to get across is this; you see things done well in other games and would like to see them in this game. My contention is that the lack of those mechanics of what makes this game great. If you enjoy those mechanics, play the games that have them. Suggestions about improving the player experience have merit, but turning this into a game it isn't would not make it better. I stopped playing borderlands because the weapons drops were terribly unfulfilling and have stayed away from both the division and destiny because that mechanic exists. In Warframe, you have to work for your power and spending time on something and learning how it works actually pays off in ways that did not exist in borderlands or its ilk. 

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9 minutes ago, Nerdonis said:

My issue is not with adding more mk-1 to weapons to the game, my issue is with your suggestion of adding weapon drops and random stats to weapons. This is a large topic that I frankly can't fully cover typing on my phone, but when I get home, I will plan on writing up a more in-depth rebuttal.

The core point I want to get across is this; you see things done well in other games and would like to see them in this game. My contention is that the lack of those mechanics of what makes this game great. If you enjoy those mechanics, play the games that have them. Suggestions about improving the player experience have merit, but turning this into a game it isn't would not make it better. I stopped playing borderlands because the weapons drops were terribly unfulfilling and have stayed away from both the division and destiny because that mechanic exists. In Warframe, you have to work for your power and spending time on something and learning how it works actually pays off in ways that did not exist in borderlands or its ilk. 

I appreciate that you disagree. I'm afraid that "this game isn't what you want it to be" doesn't represent a convincing or compelling argument against my suggestion - and I don't see it changing anything about the overall experience or core design except for the new player experience.

Obviously, if you stayed away from Division and Borderlands because you don't like the weapon drops (being one of the best parts of both games) then my suggestion isn't for you. However, I have to say I have serious doubts that's why most people stay away from those games, if that's indeed what they do.

I think most people appreciate getting new toys and stuff to play around with. I think the reason Warframe is so appealing to certain players is about the core "space ninja" gameplay and fantastic mechanics with amazing depth - and NOT the absence of a way to experiment with weapons as a new player.

But that's just me.

My suggestion doesn't take away from "having to work" for your power or spending time on the proper versions of weapons. My suggestion simply provides addiction for new players AND a guide towards proper goals rather than going in the dark.

That said, I fundamentally disagree that games should represent real work - or that it should be necessary to spend time doing boring things if there's a way around it.

Anyway, thank you for your contribution.

Edited by DKCasus
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I agree with the simulacrum idea more so than the inferior weapon drops thing. I mostly just think inferior weapons could be another confusing aspect of the game. "well, the weak version drops, so why doesn't the strong version?" is something I could see a new player wondering once they get an inferior weapon and then try to get the "real" version. Inside the simulacrum you could pick from any weapon (maybe or maybe not tied to your master rank?) and test it out against randomly spawned enemies. perhaps also for warframes and companions, but that is beyond the scope of this particular suggestion. This could help players decide what stuff they wanted to go before spending the time (or plat) required to actually obtain the stuff.

When I was still new to the game, I mostly just stuck to the weapons I could buy completed for credits because I could get them without having to wait for the 12 hour+ crafting to get done. I didn't want to grind all the materials, then wait, for something I wasn't sure was worth the wait.

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9 hours ago, DKCasus said:

*copied from my Reddit thread*

So, I will start out making it clear that I haven't played Warframe that much. Maybe 10-15 hours all in all.

I do have very significant experience with gaming in general and this genre in particular.

Think of this as a new player giving his opinion about potential issues getting into the game and how I think DE could potentially get more players to stick with it - through the rather steep learning curve. This is based on the assumption that they WANT more new players to stick with it.

I had the hardest time getting into it - but the more I read about mechanics, the more I think it could be the very best "looter shooter" out there, and I've played all the others including Borderlands, Division, Destiny, Shadow Warrior 2 and Hellgate London.

But there's one thing that really bothers me about the "flow" of progression.

It's the fact that one of the most fundamental aspects of all loot-oriented progression games (including Diablo and all the clones) - is all but non-existant.

That would be the actual loot drop itself.

While the missions are full of crafting materials and ammo, the mod drops are rare and blueprints rarer still.

The problem here is that you don't get that little "christmas present" experience that's so fun when getting into the game. You're actually expected to grind for materials and credits so you can buy and craft.

I don't mind having to work for loot and I don't mind crafting stuff. But the problem is that you have NO idea what loot you actually want.

You don't get to experiment with weapons at all - you have to buy blueprints and gather crafting materials and THEN you have to wait until you actually get to try it for yourself.

Which means you have to spend a disproportionate amount of time reading wikis or watching youtube videos trying to get a grasp of what might be the weapon for you.

Same goes for the Warframes themselves. This is the first loot-driven action/RPG where I've had to actually wait and grind before I could pick the class that I really wanted to play.

Now, I understand this is trivial for veteran players who already have access to everything they want - and know all about what weapons or Warframes fit their playstyles.

I'm talking about this from the perspective of new players who need an incentive to keep playing.

I assume we all want more players to stick with the game?

This game is already famously opaque when it comes to the lingo and the mechanics. It's nearly impenetrable to a new player in terms of the sheer amount of information constantly thrown at you.

To me, it's a HUGE detriment to my enjoyment that I don't get to find any "phat l00t" during normal play and try it out. It's one of the most important - if not THE most important - aspects of this genre and what keeps people playing when all they're doing is really just killing stuff over and over again.

If you play Path of Exile or Diablo - imagine never actually getting any loot drops. Imagine you would have to wait until you'd gathered materials and then having to buy the blueprints. After that, you had to wait before stuff was actually crafted.

Do you think the beginning stages of those games would be as satisfying?

Imagine Blizzard introducing similar mechanics to Diablo 3. Would such a change be met with praise?

In Warframe - they could simply allow inferior versions of existing weapons to drop from a loot table where the better or more expensive weapons were extremely rare. Consider them "demo" versions of the weapons without affinity gain and only Common modding (for instance).

They already have Prime versions of weapons - so why not have "Lesser" (opposite of Prime) versions as well?

So, say, a Lesser Opticor would:

Gain zero affinity and remain at lowest rank - meaning you only use it to test out the playstyle and you'd want to get a real version ASAP.
Have only limited mod capacity and no mods beyond Common mods.
Potentially have inherently inferior stats.
Take up zero weapon slots. So as to not interfere with the proper weapon progression.
Potentially offer them cheap on the market as "Demo" versions.

Keep the blueprints and crafting for all other weapons as is, so as to not change anything else about the game.

It would simply be a matter of tweaking numbers and ensuring a solid economy.

That would go a LONG way to make the progression fun without breaking the game.

Players really, really need a way to try out weapons and a way to find their favorite stuff overall without the initial grinding/crafting hurdle. Remember, this is from the perspective of a new player who does NOT understand the game or what it has in store in terms of content and gameplay. The game provides zero room for experimentation with weapons for new players just starting out - so they really don't know what to go for or why they should bother grinding mats for some strange weapon with an even stranger name.

Giving new players this inferior disposable loot should help them stay interested and addicted to the game - until such time as they start to appreciate the depth and scope of it, so they know what to invest in.

It would certainly make it much more fun to me than having to spend the first many hours waiting and grinding for stuff until you get to TRY another weapon.

Just my two cents.....

All weapons, Warframes, pets and Archwings give you MR for leveling.

The higher your MR the more you get unlocked in the game. There is never a waisted craft it's all relevant. If you don't like the thing you crafted just don't use it after its leveled to 30.

That's Warframe... trying everything is most of the fun. 

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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Raygun_X_ said:

All weapons, Warframes, pets and Archwings give you MR for leveling.

The higher your MR the more you get unlocked in the game. There is never a waisted craft it's all relevant. If you don't like the thing you crafted just don't use it after its leveled to 30.

That's Warframe... trying everything is most of the fun. 

That's cool :)

Also, utterly irrelevant to my suggestion.

But thanks for your contribution ;)

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12 hours ago, (PS4)Raygun_X_ said:

All weapons, Warframes, pets and Archwings give you MR for leveling.

The higher your MR the more you get unlocked in the game. There is never a waisted craft it's all relevant. If you don't like the thing you crafted just don't use it after its leveled to 30.

That's Warframe... trying everything is most of the fun. 

I'm not sure how that's related to what I'm asking for. I'm not saying crafting is irrelevant. I'm saying the game could be more fun and inviting to new players by not making them wait to try out weapons.

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20 hours ago, DKCasus said:

That's cool :)

Also, utterly irrelevant to my suggestion.

But thanks for your contribution ;)

Not irrelevant because you said...

Which means you have to spend a disproportionate amount of time reading wikis or watching youtube videos trying to get a grasp of what might be the weapon for you.

I said build it all and try it all because it's all MR which you need to progress.

So you don't need to read wiki or youtube anything. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for you but there you go Mr. Snarky.

 

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The thing is, a weapon performs vastly different from it's default state, to its Rank30 state, to its rank30 with a catalyst, and even more once you start adding forma.  And this is before you consider that some weapons already have base variants and advanced models, as seen with Mk-1s and special variants such as the wraith and vandal.  So in a way, your suggestion already exists defaultly in Warframe. 

Furthermore, anyone concerned at all about MR would not consider a weapon with no possible chance for MR gain, especially when a standard model would do better, and still give a gain on MR.

Finally, we already have a mechanic for random dropping stats, the Rivens.   Considered highly controversial and as a result, the majority of the community has been asking for a way to pick and keep stats instead of using rng.  Additionally, if weapons dropped as random stats, they would have to track stats to specific weapons, adding another layer of memory requirement, that stated reason that rivens have a finite number of slots.  Most players would balk if they were forced to reach a N arsenal size cap that could not be expanded.  Many suggestions at increasing riven capacity are evidence of this.

Having static weapons for trial in simulacrum or adding a tenno firing range to the relays would easily take care of weapon trials without adding too much more strain to the players or the system. 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Raygun_X_ said:

Not irrelevant because you said...

Which means you have to spend a disproportionate amount of time reading wikis or watching youtube videos trying to get a grasp of what might be the weapon for you.

I said build it all and try it all because it's all MR which you need to progress.

So you don't need to read wiki or youtube anything. I didn't think I needed to spell it out for you but there you go Mr. Snarky.

 

You're completely ignoring what my entire post was about.

New players not sticking around because they don't understand what to craft - or what the game is going to be like with all the weapons available. I'm talking about ways to introduce them to the fun and heart of the game - by using lesser (demo) versions of weapons in the beginning of the game BEFORE they give up on it - because weapon drops are FUN.

Telling them to simply stick around for hundreds of hours and craft everything is probably not the best way to convince them if the game doesn't otherwise immediately appeal to them.

My point is that weapon drops is exactly the kind of thing that a new player will appreciate and keep him wanting more.

What you're saying is like me saying to someone tasting cheese for the first time to just eat endless amounts of it because it's all so great.

Sometimes people need a little hand before they understand the appeal of something - and Warframe can be an acquired taste in that way.

Remember, this is for the good of the game and the population. Try to put yourself into the shoes of a new player not knowing anything about the game.

Obviously, if you don't care about new players or if they stick around - then you won't care about helping them see the appeal of it. That's fair enough - and we should just agree to disagree.

Edited by DKCasus
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1 hour ago, (Xbox One)RabidGoldfish J said:

The thing is, a weapon performs vastly different from it's default state, to its Rank30 state, to its rank30 with a catalyst, and even more once you start adding forma.  And this is before you consider that some weapons already have base variants and advanced models, as seen with Mk-1s and special variants such as the wraith and vandal.  So in a way, your suggestion already exists defaultly in Warframe. 

Furthermore, anyone concerned at all about MR would not consider a weapon with no possible chance for MR gain, especially when a standard model would do better, and still give a gain on MR.

Finally, we already have a mechanic for random dropping stats, the Rivens.   Considered highly controversial and as a result, the majority of the community has been asking for a way to pick and keep stats instead of using rng.  Additionally, if weapons dropped as random stats, they would have to track stats to specific weapons, adding another layer of memory requirement, that stated reason that rivens have a finite number of slots.  Most players would balk if they were forced to reach a N arsenal size cap that could not be expanded.  Many suggestions at increasing riven capacity are evidence of this.

Having static weapons for trial in simulacrum or adding a tenno firing range to the relays would easily take care of weapon trials without adding too much more strain to the players or the system. 

Again, the weapons I'm talking about are supposed to be demos as drops - and that doesn't exist in the game. They're not supposed to represent the real weapon fully and completely - or they would ruin the entire economy of the game.

But we all know that a rank 1 and a rank 30 weapon will, for the most part, yield the same type of gameplay experience for the purposes of demonstration. Meaning, a rank 1 bow will still fire arrows and "feel" like a rank 30 bow - with the primary advantages well represented even in the beginning. It doesn't need all mod combinations - just like the real weapon wouldn't represent everything about that weapon without all possible mod combinations having been tried.

I'm not asking for "random drops" just because. I'm specifically asking for tangible weapon drops because a new player would love that AND it would give them a way to experiment with playstyles simply because they found a new toy.

I know this can be hard for a veteran player to remember or understand - but getting a mod drop as a player with zero information about the game is NOT the same experience as a weapon drop would be.

Finding a new rifle or sword is something everyone can understand - and I'm willing to bet 99% of players trying Warframe out will enjoy finding something like that. That's the point - to lure them to the game without interfering with the rest of the game or the item economy.

That said, I'm not against a trial for weapon experimentation - it just won't represent the kind of gratification experience that most new players will expect from what's essentially a sophisticated looter shooter.

Edited by DKCasus
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@DKCasus More than that, imo, i would suggest going for a test area like the simulacrum. But i fully ahree with you in that the simulacrum doesn't work, particularly for a new player (when are they gonna get 50k simaris rep???). 

What I would do would be to add a subsection to Junctions. Junctions currently are a breadcrumb trail for starchart progression. What if each time that you completed a junction you got access to a "tenno arsenal" where there would be test weapons to play in a simulation arena? The Lotus could even tell you when you face the Junctions that there are hidden arsenals here where you can rediscover pieces of tech. 

Maybe you could put a bunch of guns there and have the player try them out and let them pick up the blueprint for one at the end. That would be cool. 

That way you would give new player an area where to try new stuff faster, see if they like something, and even actually build one of the things they liked after getting to play with them for a while. And it would mesh into the main player progression line, so no looking around for it in wikias etc. 

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7 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

@DKCasus More than that, imo, i would suggest going for a test area like the simulacrum. But i fully ahree with you in that the simulacrum doesn't work, particularly for a new player (when are they gonna get 50k simaris rep???). 

What I would do would be to add a subsection to Junctions. Junctions currently are a breadcrumb trail for starchart progression. What if each time that you completed a junction you got access to a "tenno arsenal" where there would be test weapons to play in a simulation arena? The Lotus could even tell you when you face the Junctions that there are hidden arsenals here where you can rediscover pieces of tech. 

Maybe you could put a bunch of guns there and have the player try them out and let them pick up the blueprint for one at the end. That would be cool. 

That way you would give new player an area where to try new stuff faster, see if they like something, and even actually build one of the things they liked after getting to play with them for a while. And it would mesh into the main player progression line, so no looking around for it in wikias etc. 

Honestly, I would be for any way to help new players understand the game and the appeal of its mechanics.

What you're suggesting would be a great addition as well.

I'm just talking from my own point of view and understanding of gamer psychology. This type of game or genre is among my favorites - and I've played pretty much all shades of them.

Warframe is very unique - it's true, but despite what some might claim - it's still essentially a looter shooter in terms of the primary appeal. As in, it's still about finding powerful or fun combinations of gear and weapons and killing stuff whilst you grow ever more bad-ass. I don't think anyone can really deny that.

It's my experience that finding weapons and loot during normal play is among THE most satisfying features of this genre - and though we DO get mod drops, that's not nearly as interesting or tangible for a new player as a weapon drop would be. Even if it's just trash demo weapons that's going to be discarded the instant the player understands the value of crafted weapons - he's not going to know that in the beginning of the game.

To a new player, it will be a cool new weapon to try out.

I don't know about you - but there's a big difference between going to a shooting gallery and trying out toys that you don't own - and then getting your very own toy to play around with all you want :)

But that's just me.

If there's some kind of principle against weapon drops - despite there already being mod and blueprint drops - then that's ok. A system like you suggest can only help new players - though I will argue my own concept is going to be more appealing for the new player - as well as being much more in line with their expectations if they've tried any of the other similar games out there.

Edited by DKCasus
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@DKCasus what i can tell you from my perspective is that back when i started playing this game in mid january 2015 what drew me in, other than the awesome art style and interesting combat system, was precisely the thing you want to subvert. I could drop universal upgrade cards, resources to build stuff, but the whole gear grind was 100% deterministic - no weapon drops mid mission and the like. 

Not saying i am right and you are wrong, mind that. It's just a different perspective. I personally think that having weapon drops in warframe, even in the form you are suggesting (which, again, aims to do a good thing), would've lessened its appeal to me. 

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9 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

@DKCasus what i can tell you from my perspective is that back when i started playing this game in mid january 2015 what drew me in, other than the awesome art style and interesting combat system, was precisely the thing you want to subvert. I could drop universal upgrade cards, resources to build stuff, but the whole gear grind was 100% deterministic - no weapon drops mid mission and the like. 

Not saying i am right and you are wrong, mind that. It's just a different perspective. I personally think that having weapon drops in warframe, even in the form you are suggesting (which, again, aims to do a good thing), would've lessened its appeal to me. 

What I'm suggesting changes exactly nothing about the deterministic system already in place. That's a fundamental misunderstanding.

The game will be exactly the same except IN ADDITION to everything it already is, there will be n00b weapon drops as a way to demonstrate the appeal of the game and meet common expectations.

If you seriously think having that ON TOP of what Warframe always was in terms of loot being deterministic and crafted when it comes to the "real value" - is going to turn new players AWAY from it rather than make it more appealing - then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

That said, I have no problem believing that there's a small segment of new players who have some kind of personal principle against cool loot - but I have to say I believe they belong to a tiny, tiny minority if they otherwise enjoy this genre.

But, to be completely honest, it really does seem like some of these reactions are more about a slightly irrational opposition to anything that even remotely resembles traditional loot drops - as if the game didn't already have that to an extent. A bit silly. I mean, mod drops are not deterministic - nor are blueprints. You still have to grind for your loot like all other games of this nature, it's just a different kind of grind. In most of these games, you grind the loot and in Warframe you grind credits, blueprints and mats. Hardly the most deterministic solution in the world.

I don't mean to offend by that statement, but that's just the gist I'm getting. Sorry about that .)

Edited by DKCasus
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Anyway, I think you all for your comments.

I made this suggestion mostly for DE to consider - if they're actually going to read it.

I have zero illusions I'm going to convince veteran players that helping new players by introducing this kind of sacrilegious change to the starter experience - is a good thing ;)

I've done my best to argue my case - and I have to say I haven't seen much in the way of compelling arguments against it, beyond just not liking weapon drops as a principle.

That's completely ok - and maybe my idea is crap and I don't know what the hell I'm talking about in terms of enticing new players. In that case, I should obviously just be ignored.

I'll let it rest now.

Have fun all!

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I understand you wanting to be able to demo Weapons and ideally : a Darvo Test area in the relay would be perfect for people to try before buying.

 

As for loot(weapon) rewards, in Warframe those are pretty much Event weapons (Complete Event prerequisite for Fully crafted and Potatoes weapon, same for Anniversary weapons coming real soon*, and Daily log-in weapons) & from Quest Rewards (Broken War, Broken Scepter, Mote Amp, etc..)

 

I see Warframe as vastly different from the Division or Destiny because Warframe wants you to wait days, weeks, even years to obtain certain gear.

In a game where the main goal is to obtain and level everything (viewing MR30 as End game) DE is asks a lot of commitment from a player to aka Beat the Game (achieve MR30).

This is not a game to complete or be highest level in a week or even a month. (Items are time locked out of that being a realistic possibility...cannot pay to obtain Multi-hundred day log in weapons)

 

 

Some Prime weapons(Dual Kamas Prime, Paris Prime, Cernos Prime..examples of Prime weapons that do not require resources) and mostly the Invasion Mission Weapons(Sheev, Vandal, Wraith) are closer to instant gratification of obtaining a weapon that only requires parts to craft and not normal resources that would have needed to be farmed.

 

You did mention opposite of Prime, but the Relics are the driving force of what we are trying to obtain. Relics are available to new and veteran players to obtain Prime goods (I do think it is a little unfair new players will now most likely get Prime rewards they cannot use due to Mastery Lock). Relics are much closer to traditional Mission farming in games like Division, DCUO, Destiny.

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I say add a shooting range to Darvo where you can test out any weapon you desire, including those above your MR and have ability to fully mod as long as your in the range (built off simuculum design).  

 

Edit - apparently I was scooped...

Edited by Educated_Beast
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Speaking from the view of someone who has put 2400+ hours into the game over the past 4 years, I'm gonna add my two cents.

1:this game has one of the worst SOLO new player experiences, I found the game nearly impossible to get into when I first downloaded it. DE(aka, the developers) know this, and have enlisted the help of the community to be the helping hand that guides newbies into the game. Me and my inner friends circle have developed  a rather extensive learning  course for new players, with entry points from having just completed the final quests, all the way to the baby level 0 first awakening from cryo sleep. I like to help newer players get their bearings, but I know 80%+ of the people I help below MR 5 will probably never make it past MR10 and permanently quit the game before then.

2: "lesser" weapons, as you called them (aka, demos), I've always found this concept rather stupid, especially for this game. A weapon is an investment of your time, and if you want to rank up, you need to invest time into EVERY weapon(/frame/sentinel/etc etc). Yes, not every weapon is going to be your play style, but the game wants you to use them and give them a try. Here's the thing though, if that's all you want them to be, that's all they will be, a time investment, it's with the forma that comes the heavy investment. Forma is an extremely valuable resource that I can't seem to keep in my inventory, I will literally blow through 10+ in a matter of 2 days because I had a new crazy build idea. As far as the demo concept itself goes, there technically is demo weapons, the MK-1s, they are there to give you an idea on how certain weapons work. Wanna learn shotguns? Here's an MK-1 strun, wanna learn auto rifles? Here's MK-1 Braton. You get the point. The MK-1s are only a credit investment, and you can easily remake back all those credits in literally less than 5 minutes per weapon.

3:loot grind. Your first problem is thinking of this as a loot game. It's not. This is a resource grinder. VERY FEW things are actually dropped as a loot, and even then, it's still a resource. You cannot get a fully built weapon to drop from an enemy, you can get a blue print. This game wants to make you feel like you EARNED something. What feels better, example A; "I just killed 10.7 million enemies and I finally got the last piece I needed for (insert thing here)" or example B; " I just took down that really hard boss and got (insert thing here)'s piece, now I just need to do it a couple more times and get the rest *4 tries later* yes! I finally got everything I need!" I don't know about you, but option B sounds better to me. I played a few of the other games listed here, like borderlands. I would sit there and grind out an area, killing the same boss umpteen billion times before he finally dropped that unglodly rare thing I so very wanted, but whats this? It has Doo Doo stats? Well crap, gotta keep going. Saving and quitting and re-jumping back into the same area to do the same exact grind that's gotten so monotonous I could do it blindfolded. This game gives you most everything you want, you just have to wait for it.

4: crafting times. The crafting times are there to be a hard wall for players, if it's good and you want it, you can wait for it, If you really need it NOW, throw a little play and you can have it now. The only crafting times I don't care for are the Warframe ones, the hard 3 days to wait on the final blueprint while it stares you down from the foundry, those I rush with platinum.most other things, eh, 12-24 hours really isn't long to wait. I can go off an do something else, or, you know, have a life outside the game, and it can be ready when I come back to it. 

5: there is something in this for everyone. This game appeals to a large crowd as a whole, and as a result, not everyone is 100% pleased, and they aren't going to be. Want to killed countless faceless hordes? Here you go. Want to kill a really hard enemy at stupid high levels? Here's the tools you need, good luck! Want to explore wild, crazy mechanics? Here's a couple frames to consider. Want lore? Here, volumes upon volumes of lore, explore to your heart's content, and here, we will even throw in few extra tools just for you lore junkies.

This has just been my 2 cents on the matter, but the main thing is, you are new, you have been in the game less than my first gaming session in warframe. It feels like you spent more time making a forum account and writing this thread than you did in game. The number one thing you need to come to terms with, is this is Warframe. This is not borderlands, this is not Diablo, this is not path of exile, and it's ESPECIALLY not destiny. If you want to play those games, play them. Leave this game alone. I've seen countless players come to Warframe because they beat other games, or said other games failed, and pick apart Warframe and say "it should have this and this and this" and by the time they are done, they essentially just have a reskinned version of the game they just came from( looking at you, destiny players). This is where it needs to stop. Let games be different from one another. Warframe doesn't want "End game", because that implies the game will end, the story will be over. They don't want that. They want this game to last forever, and frankly, so do I.

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4 hours ago, DKCasus said:

You're completely ignoring what my entire post was about.

New players not sticking around because they don't understand what to craft - or what the game is going to be like with all the weapons available. I'm talking about ways to introduce them to the fun and heart of the game - by using lesser (demo) versions of weapons in the beginning of the game BEFORE they give up on it - because weapon drops are FUN.

Telling them to simply stick around for hundreds of hours and craft everything is probably not the best way to convince them if the game doesn't otherwise immediately appeal to them.

My point is that weapon drops is exactly the kind of thing that a new player will appreciate and keep him wanting more.

What you're saying is like me saying to someone tasting cheese for the first time to just eat endless amounts of it because it's all so great.

Sometimes people need a little hand before they understand the appeal of something - and Warframe can be an acquired taste in that way.

Remember, this is for the good of the game and the population. Try to put yourself into the shoes of a new player not knowing anything about the game.

Obviously, if you don't care about new players or if they stick around - then you won't care about helping them see the appeal of it. That's fair enough - and we should just agree to disagree.

Not true I do care and in fact I have taught many friends how the game works.

The fact is the market has many starter weapons that are pre-built and only cost credits. They can be picked up anytime and don't need to drop.

Those weapons give people an idea and direction of what they would like. My MR 3 friend found that he likes shot guns over auto rifles and staff melee over 1 handed swords. Now he has a direction of first crafts.

The real thing that needs an improvemnt for new people is the mod system. How to level up mods and how capacity works.. reactors .. catalyst and things like polarities and aura and stances.

The knowledge of those things will translate to people's Warframes and weapons feeling and being more powerful and that's what people really want.

 

Edited by (PS4)Raygun_X_
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the problem i see with this idea aside from the fact that you want this game to be a game that its not. Is the simple fact of people will *@##$ "If the crappy version drops, why doesn't the good version drop too!" and then that will turn into ANOTHER thread, requesting this useless "Crap Version Of a Weapon" be removed, and the cycle will repeat. Its better to not have it, and not need it, Than to have it and not need it.

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I would do it slightly differently. Instead of demo weapons obtained from drop tables, I'd have them as dropped weapons from enemies (with a relatively low chance so it's not annoying). That would fit with immersion in many different ways: you killed someone, now take their gun; that gun wasn't built with Tenno methods, so it's not meant to handle Tenno mods - hence limited modding; that gun wasn't crafted using Tenno hands, so it doesn't give Tenno mastery.

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Took a hiatus. Been playing AC:Origins a lot. And loot in that game, is so much more satisfying than in Warframe. 

This is because it's actually loot. Weapons and shields you can use. Often immediately. 

Warframe needs a better, more enjoyable loot System. Something that fits this game, but it's needed.

My take was multiple Riven tiers. Common (1-2 buffs), Uncommon (2-3), and Rare (3-4) could drop all over the star map and landscapes. Then Legendary Tier Rivens (4+ Buffs) drop from Sorties. Also, only Legendary tier would have Unveiling. All others would be immediately useful.

This would mean a constant flow of potentially useful loot. Maybe tie certain weapon type Rivens to certain factions or enemies  (but not nodes) and this would really get people out running Missions.

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14 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Took a hiatus. Been playing AC:Origins a lot. And loot in that game, is so much more satisfying than in Warframe. 

This is because it's actually loot. Weapons and shields you can use. Often immediately. 

Warframe needs a better, more enjoyable loot System. Something that fits this game, but it's needed.

My take was multiple Riven tiers. Common (1-2 buffs), Uncommon (2-3), and Rare (3-4) could drop all over the star map and landscapes. Then Legendary Tier Rivens (4+ Buffs) drop from Sorties. Also, only Legendary tier would have Unveiling. All others would be immediately useful.

This would mean a constant flow of potentially useful loot. Maybe tie certain weapon type Rivens to certain factions or enemies  (but not nodes) and this would really get people out running Missions.

Given the storage requirements of Rivens, I very seriously doubt this is even possible, let alone advisable

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