Failure And Aborting Punishment Needs To Be Changed Into Less Hostile

[CY13ERPUNK]

-1, inb4 lock

 

 

 

 

Nothing has changed. People would still quit every mission the moment the objective is complete. Which is lame. It was a good fix when they implemented it.

 

 

Maybe your threads wouldn't be locked if you weren't spamming them...

 

 

Are ou sayin that you want to reward from Finishin, for not finishing?

 

 

The sheer amount of arrogance makes my head hurt.

 

 

Maybe if you use more italics, it'll make your point more valid.

 

 

dude the DE is still asleep its just 6am at their place try posting this after few hours so they can say no and lock the thread again

ummm ya, what they said

ppl already still abort missions if they dont get the drops they want and the host migration issues routinely kick other players for the aborter's $&*^-moves, what OP is proposing would only multiply and endorse worse behavior

IMHO there should be some kind of "goodwill" rating, you get more for completing missions successfully and lose it for aborting/failing, then the "goodwill" rating could have some kind of small multiplier on affinity/credits rewards at missions end (they could adjust the current rewards to balance around the new potential multiplier)

[KvotheTheArcane1]

-snip-

No. Arguing is good, it's what a discussion is. You don't want to stifle discussion do you (even though pave's side is silly, why should you keep items for quitting a mission, honestly)

[PsychedelicSnake]

No. Arguing is good, it's what a discussion is. You don't want to stifle discussion do you (even though pave's side is silly, why should you keep items for quitting a mission, honestly)

 

Arguing =/= Discussion

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Arguing =/= Discussion

sometimes yes, sometimes no. But asking people to stop arguing contributes literally nothing. On these forums, arguing is usually how discussions end up. And I don't feel that people are arguing so much here, maybe a little but not a lot, it's fairly one sided.

[Skywalker666]

@Skywalker666

In most cases the host would kill the boss and pick up the drop and immeadiently DC.

That would prevent anyone else from getting any of the boss loot.

That was how it screwed over the rest of the group, or those unlucky enough to not get the BP/mod/whatever that the boss dropped.

And this would happen in a majority of pug matches.

If you happened to be further away from the drops than the host was, then most of the time you just couldn't get it. So it lead to the host ruining the run for everyone else.

And I think forfeiting the rewards is a good thing in that case. You prevented 3 other people from getting the rewards, so why should you get anything either?

 

I don't understand what you mean... The host disconnecting doesn't instantly disband the party, does it?

 

 

You just dont deserve any reward for failure. Thats it. You got spoilt by games that rewarded you for being bad/dieing/failing whatever. This game is not gonna be like that. You s*** you dont get stuff. And thats good.

 

If we don't deserve any reward for failure, why not dismiss the experience we gained from a failed level as well?

 

 

Arguing =/= Discussion

 

That depends of your definition of arguing. If you mean yelling at each other, yes. If you mean exchanging arguments, no, sorry. :)

Edited August 2, 2013 by Skywalker666

[KvotheTheArcane1]

So you agree with my arguments but will still believe something else?

Wow.

Fallout 3 has FPS shooting elements, but yet, it's not considered an FPS, it's considered an RPG. the shooting is not the focus of the game, it just enhances the game, but isn't the focus. See how that works? The same goes for RPGs, a game can have RPG elements, but not be an RPG. (Aka, a leveling system doesn't make a game an RPG, or warframe is the most boring RPG game I've played.)

 

Same goes for skyrim, it has melee mechanics, but it's not a first person brawler/fighter, it's an RPG.

Edited August 2, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Mietz]

Fallout 3 has FPS shooting elements, but yet, it's not considered an FPS, it's considered an RPG. the shooting is not the focus of the game, it just enhances the game, but isn't the focus. See how that works? The same goes for RPGs, a game can have RPG elements, but not be an RPG. (Aka, a leveling system doesn't make a game an RPG, or warframe is the most boring RPG game I've played.)

 

Same goes for skyrim, it has melee mechanics, but it's not a first person brawler/fighter, it's an RPG.

 

Did you read my post where i explained the core gameplay of WF is an RPG?

The shooting in WF is not the focus of the game, completing missions is not the focus of the game, competition is not the focus of the game, score is not the focus of the game. What is the focus is the enhancement and progression of your character, like in any other RPG.

[Tsukinoki]

@Skywalker666

If the host DCs one of three things will happen

A) The party will all be kicked back to menu because of a failed host migration (which is most of the time)

B) The party will be able to continue the mission but 90% of the time all of the drops that were on the ground disappear and non of the mods that they had picked up to that point remain in their inventory.

C) The mission will restart completely with you off in your own little party of one, or the objective will become bugged and uncompletable.

A happens a lot more than B or C. But regardless of what happens it ends up with the rest of the party not getting any of the rewards for the run. The only people which got any rewards were those that quit before the host did. That made it a very bad system to be part in.

Before this change it was actually hard to find a PUG and actually complete a mission with it. With this change you can now actually finish the mission most of the time.

[Blatantfool]

 I asked the Lady Lotus about this topic. 

 

 As it turns out my earlier statement was right. This part of the game will not be removed. 

 

 However I'd bet DE would be game for suggestions to improve upon it, they are typically cool about that.

[neKroMancer]

Fallout 3 has FPS shooting elements, but yet, it's not considered an FPS, it's considered an RPG. the shooting is not the focus of the game, it just enhances the game, but isn't the focus. See how that works? The same goes for RPGs, a game can have RPG elements, but not be an RPG. (Aka, a leveling system doesn't make a game an RPG, or warframe is the most boring RPG game I've played.)

 

Same goes for skyrim, it has melee mechanics, but it's not a first person brawler/fighter, it's an RPG.

 

How many hours have you spent in Fallout shooting compared to time taken to read and answer dialogue? If we look at majority of the gameplay, FPS is definitely more prominent in term of gameplay, while RPG add the much needed narrative which somewhat drive the game forward.

 

FF series is also a mixture from the beginning. Will it be famous without turn-based combat system and, in some case, job system? No matter how interesting the story, it's not a game without interactive part added.

 

Skyrim is another example. How many hours have you spent traveling skyrim, travel the land and do quest given to you by NPC? Most of them are spent traveling and fighting, not much spent talking with other NPC. It's still described as an RPG.

 

Dishonored is usually labelled as FPS stealth game. However, despite the fact that there is no leveling system, I still see an RPG aspect added into the game through chaos system which is generate by your action through the game and affect the end of your story.

 

I think Role-playing game is about player assuming control of the character in the game and responsible for its action. How deep this aspect could be is depend on the developer. It's not just the leveling system, it's about choice and consequence of said choice. 

[Xylia]

 I asked the Lady Lotus about this topic. 

 

 As it turns out my earlier statement was right. This part of the game will not be removed. 

 

 However I'd bet DE would be game for suggestions to improve upon it, they are typically cool about that.

 

 

Good!

 

I don't want the game to reward quitters.

 

Other options like increasing rewards from some missions, tweaking boss tables, etc are all good.I just don't want people clicking "Abort" and keeping all their stuff. That's just ridiculous.

 

And for those very few times when a bug causes you to fail a mission, I'd support an automated bug report system that sends the EE.log without you having to exit the game and manually generate a ticket so that you'd have a chance of getting your rightful earnings back.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Xylia

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Did you read my post where i explained the core gameplay of WF is an RPG?

The shooting in WF is not the focus of the game, completing missions is not the focus of the game, competition is not the focus of the game, score is not the focus of the game. What is the focus is the enhancement and progression of your character, like in any other RPG.

Really? Then again, WF is the worst RPG I've yet to play. It's leveling system is shallow, and it barely has any lore. It's a TPS, not sure where you're getting the RPG bit from, other than weapons level up.

 

How many hours have you spent in Fallout shooting compared to time taken to read and answer dialogue? If we look at majority of the gameplay, FPS is definitely more prominent in term of gameplay, while RPG add the much needed narrative which somewhat drive the game forward.

And yet... you can spend a fair bit of time wandering around talking to NPCs. Most people will say FO3 is an RPG, not an FPS. FPS is simply the combat mechanic/ is a hybrid of FPS and RPG)

 

FF series is also a mixture from the beginning. Will it be famous without turn-based combat system and, in some case, job system? No matter how interesting the story, it's not a game without interactive part added.

 

Skyrim is another example. How many hours have you spent traveling skyrim, travel the land and do quest given to you by NPC? Most of them are spent traveling and fighting, not much spent talking with other NPC. It's still described as an RPG.

Right, it's an RPG because the focus of the game is on the RPG aspects, i.e. leveling, story, lore.

 

Dishonored is usually labelled as FPS stealth game. However, despite the fact that there is no leveling system, I still see an RPG aspect added into the game through chaos system which is generate by your action through the game and affect the end of your story.

It has RPG elements, i.e. minor upgrades, ability to affect your ending. WF does not.

 

I think Role-playing game is about player assuming control of the character in the game and responsible for its action. How deep this aspect could be is depend on the developer. It's not just the leveling system, it's about choice and consequence of said choice. 

Eh, just because you role play your character, doesn't mean it's a role playing game. Warframe is the worst RPG I've ever seen, if you want to call it an RPG. It barely has a leveling system, something to simply allow for increase of power of weapons/character, it doesn't have a story/moral choices. It's not an RPG, it's a TPS, with dungeon crawler elements in the sense the level is randomly generated.

Edited August 2, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Blatantfool]

Did you read my post where i explained the core gameplay of WF is an RPG?

The shooting in WF is not the focus of the game, completing missions is not the focus of the game, competition is not the focus of the game, score is not the focus of the game. What is the focus is the enhancement and progression of your character, like in any other RPG.

 

 This is absolutely dense. You just said that the only parts of the game you actually play aren't the focus of the Gameplay. That doesn't make any sense.

[Baigan]

From a design standpoint, if you risk nothing in a game, it feels quite bland, un-immersive,  and the already debatable challenge would be, well, a moot point.

[neKroMancer]

@Kvothe the arcane1

As my previous post stated, RPG isn't a game by itself but an aspect added into other genre to drive the narrative. Leveling system isn't RPG by itself and I don't call Warframe as an RPG or has any RPG aspect, yet.

My examples are actually to point out that RPG is a part of the game but not a genre by itself. You can have turn-based RPG (final fantasy tactic), action RPG (Diablo), TPS RPG (Mass Effect), FPS RPG (Metro, Rage) etc. All of which has emphasis their gameplay to their respective genre while having RPG element added into it to drive the narrative. Leveling system isn't the hallmark of RPG. Dishonored which offer pretty solid RPG element doesn't have leveling system.

As my previous post stated, how deep is the RPG aspect in the game is up to the developer. Warframe doesn't have this aspect, yet.

Edited August 2, 2013 by neKroMancer

[Eisvogel]

There's no need for more of this useless threads.....

 

Why people want to get rewarded for failing? You should get actually penalized like most games when you fail....... be glad that you aren't punished with xp loss, etc.

[Tsukinoki]

@Eisvogel

Thats my view on the thing as well.

I grew up playing games that punished by if you failed or died.

And I play rogue-likes that if you die you have to start over from scratch.

This game barely 'punishes' you for failing a mission. At most you lose what, 15 minutes of running through a map? Maybe 4 or 5 mods and some resources?

That's barely anything.

[Eisvogel]

@Eisvogel

Thats my view on the thing as well.

I grew up playing games that punished by if you failed or died.

And I play rogue-likes that if you die you have to start over from scratch.

This game barely 'punishes' you for failing a mission. At most you lose what, 15 minutes of running through a map? Maybe 4 or 5 mods and some resources?

That's barely anything.

 

Indeed..... and i know what you mean by the hardcore games..... i love indies, and that's a pretty common trait for some indies where you die and that's it...... get better and start again :D

 

And it is as you say, hardly 15 minutes.... more like 4 or 5 unless it's a defense.... and in defense you get things saved by checkpoint so.... There's already hardly any challenge or risk in the game....

[Tsukinoki]

@Eisvogel

Yep.

The only time its taken me 15 minutes is a no-minimap nightmare spy with a bonus spy mission on top of that!

Im glad they are removing the no-minimap mutator.

But I was being generous with the time I had given.

But if you fail to protect the objective, or die, or glitch, just try again and spend another 5 minutes completing the mission. Hek,you even keep your affinity you gained in the mission.

[Venarge]

If we don't deserve any reward for failure, why not dismiss the experience we gained from a failed level as well?

Well, you dont keep the experience. Only if something is leveled. But well. No idea why this is in. What does it have to do with my post?

[JHarlequin]

We will need to into account the avarage time per session / mission though:

 

- In Phantasy Star Online, one area (consisting of several maps) can last from 1-hour to more than 3-hours or even longer (varies depending on the difficulty and any other variables). Of course, you're also allowed to visit towns via self-created-town-portals ("Telepipes"), and in single players, you could save by "logging-off" and returning back later while still having the Telepipe active

 

- In Monster Hunter the time limit is 50-minutes for most of the hunts; time limit varies between mission types (E.G. Training School has 30-minutes limit for challenges). The avarage hunt time for larger missions is around 40-minutes.

One can choose to pick-up everything possible (especially map-exclusive materials not avaible at vendors or via farm) before heading to take down the target. Or they can just head striaght to target and take it down.

Back in PS2-time (and somewhat even today), there used to be a thing called

...oddly enough, seems like there wasn't much of complaining about this practice back then.

 

- Warframe mission session-leghts vary from 5-minutes to hours depending the size of the map, mission type (which determs enemy amounts) and "power-level" (more resilient enemies require more time to kill, in most of the cases). The decision of how you will completle mission will also heavily affect the time required to complete mission.

 

I cannot recall what was the avarage lenght of the missions in Mechwarrior 2 for single player campaign; it's been far too long since I spectating that game. But since it didn't allow you to keep the exp or salvage when aborting mission / returning to menu, they most likely didn't last for hours.

 

 The main thing to add about the comparisons of games between warfame and whatever is that so far, most of the comparisons that came up might feature co-op gameplay, but in a couple cases were co-op only with friends or with great effort to link with another player, or no co-op at all.  Warframe doesn't just have co-op but is supposedly focusing on team play.  Quitting out of a mission means you aren't there to provide anything for your team.  Whether you knew those people or not, you were supposed to be there.  That is what clicking on a mission means.

 

 You can be randomly matched with many people, so a major ideal of the game is based around a few simple concepts.  Work with people.  Have fun.  Don't be a $&*^.  Quitting out of missions because you got your neurodes, systems, whatever was extremely overabused, so it got changed.  There are still plenty of people that quit out of missions because they didn't get their neurodes, systems, whatever, because they think it is better to quit and restart then to just finish and restart.  The missions have been worked on to have extractions closer to bosses and whatever, and yet these people still quit out early instead of finish.

 

 In general, the current system is the minimum of what should be featured to cut back on people leaving a mission early for any reason.  If everyone dies, then the mission fails.  If people abort, then they fail.  If someone fails, then they do not get the rewards.  They had to find the nearest escape hatch while dumping what they were carrying and get out of there.

 

 There should never be a reward for exiting early by abort or by failure.  It certainly means that some players might not have an easy progression, but it is there to make sure that the game does not become mind numbingly supportive of bad play.

[Pave]

There seems to be yet another pattern shown here via these debates:

Vocally most the supporters the punishement seems not to spent anymore than 15-minutes per map, which is to be found rather suspious, considering there are maps that regardless the amount of speed players has, would take more than 15-minutes to rush through; that's of course to assume one would play on such maps ever, unless they avoiding such map on purpous.

 

Rush(-er) is the key word here.

 

Ii has been already said the debate of Rusher vs Looter is completely another topic and should be avoided here. But no matter how much it is tried to be avoid, it has be brought up at least partially.

 

It seems, that the defenders of this current punishment-system in the end just seems to have only one reason "why" it was plead for: The rushers got outrushed.

Back to several months ago, the volume of outrushed rushers simply got too high, and thus the developer-team gave in to pleads the easy way; Just punish everyone without any flexibility; everyone's guilty after all, there are no exceptions.

 

When it was said that clearing a map in warframe can take hours if they were large and populated enough, that's a fact: By avarage map do contain ~300-500 enemies to be killed (varied by the size), each taking more and more time as the power-level would rise due the also incresed damage-sponging abilities. Searching each "secret" spot does take from ~1-2-minutes each depending on the location of the spot and the amount of loot located there.

One such example for a single mission taking easily 1.5-hours was a large Grineer asteroid-mining-base during Informant-event; due the rapid deployment of Informant on the same spot, selected missions could contain more than 50 of these targets in a single run; fortunately most of the players with such fortune were actually able finish the mission without much of trouble.

 

 

Regardless of the hearsay written here, there needs to some concrete evidence to be acquired, or at least updated.

There's a simple solution for all this, how it could be proceesed, and perhaps how the punishment-system could be tuned into something much more likeable:

 

Step 1:

Revert it to back what is was and gather some actual up-to-date data for specified amount of time.

In fact, there hasn't been any word of the results told wheter this system in reality changed anything at all in the end, only hearsays; this "insta-aborting"-habbit still happens according to many hearsays. Again, arguments are heavily depending on much out-dated information. Since then, there's over 2-million new players registered, thus incresing the possibilities of variety of players and player types.

 

After all, there is a very high likelyhood that many of the players who practiced this exploit already got what they wanted, thus they didn't have any reason reason to use the exploit any longer once the punishement was put into practice.

There's no sure way to tell however, because there's nothing to reference to, aside hearsays once again; kinda hard to use the "but the charts says"-argument, when there hasn't been any charts to present with, no name an example.

 

We need actual up-to-date-data; relying on outdated-data is no way to make progress.

 

Step 2:

Apply a cooldown.

First time Aborting let's the user go off the nook, but second time nothing would be "rewarded" when aborting. A appropiate cooldown could be 1-hour; this is to take into account the avarage time spent on each mission is 15-minutes, according to "majority".

This is would allow the needed "safe" exiting from the missions if there is mechanics malfunctioning or other coding mistake happening (or any other way the mission is / becomes unbeatable), but would discourage the excessive usage of abort-button.

 

There's also the talk of looking for specific types of players to matchmake with, which would bring up yet even more variables for teh data-gathering, but that's another topic to worry about.

 

Of course, the above workable system above was already suggested around these forums from time to time before and after the punishment implementation; it just has been mentioned once again perhaps slightly more refined and up-to-date.

 

There was actions wanted against Abort-abusers; why "failures" such players who didn't exploit this system., had to suffer from same punishment then; they were for the most part actually playing the game and completing missions as hoped, right?

This is the question asked numerous times today, and it was the question asked back then too; it has just gone unanswered by the devs themselves.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Pave

[KvotheTheArcane1]

-snip-

nooooooooooooooooooope.gif, if you quit, you quit, you shouldn't get to keep any rewards you picked up along the way. Horrendous right? Being forced to finish a mission, how AWFUL.

Edited August 2, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Venarge]

nooooooooooooooooooope.gif, if you quit, you quit, you shouldn't get to keep any rewards you picked up along the way. Horrendous right? Being forced to finish a mission, how AWFUL.

Yeah. I mean. How can you expect that people get punished for failure. You devil....

[Tsukinoki]

@Pave

By saying a mission takes 5 to 15 minutes we were talking about an average run.

Not a run where you go into every nook and cranny two or three times.

Just the run of an average player playing this game.

The average player wont spend 45 minutes to an hour in a grineer asteroid sabotage mission.

And if it took that long than the 5 minute timer in nightmare missions would be impossible to do (and I have actually finished a mission like that with as few as 15 kills meaning I didn't get much extra time beyond that initial 5 minutes).

The average player finish a mission in 5 to 15 minutes at the very most.

You are describing a HIGHLY atypical and uncommon way of finishing a mssion: an extreme turtler.

The only mission which can take longer than 15 minutes is a boss mission, and that is if you aren't bringing weapons on par for what you are going up against.

So please, stop bringing up such fantastical completion times of taking 1.5 hours to clear out an asteroid mission.

The only missions which take anywhere near that long are when you want to get to the higher defense waves.

And the reason they included the failure as part of this, and not just quitters?

Do you know how easy it is to suicide then click "Abort mission" and then leave, getting all of the loot and causing a DC of the party and preventing them from getting any loot?

DE actually considered that. It was abuseable as well. So it gets the same deterrant to prevent people from abusing it.

Simple as that.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Tsukinoki