Can we get a reworked moderation system?

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

1 minute ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

Playing devil's advocate here, one man's "hate speech" is another man's "political inclination". That being said, this is a video game. There should be no room to discuss politics, religion, sexual orientation or anything not related to the game within the game. That is what online fora, discord servers and Twitter/Facebook/[Insert social media of preference here] are for. If we can't act like adults, then perhaps it's necessary for someone (or some people) to do so.

While this may be the case, the punishment for doing this the first time should be a slap on the wrists and an admonition to not do it again. Right now, anyone who does this is accused of being 'toxic' and then treated as a 'lesser' player, even if it was a heat-of-the-moment thing or an honest mistake.

I am all for proper punishment of repeat offenders. That's the whole idea behind the 'Warning Points' system here one the forums; if you keep mouthing off, you get banned, but if you shape up and be respectful, the points expire and everything is OK. I myself have gotten warning points in the past, at which point I just stopped posting for a while and cooled off, then started up again when the points disappeared. I haven't gotten one in a while, and that is because I don't say everything that comes into my head.

In fact, if we are going to be honest, all of us have had some form of 'toxic' thought in the past. We're just smart enough to not say it. Some people aren't quite smart enough to do that the first time, so we need to help them learn, not have a zero-tolerance policy and castigate them for saying something they shouldn't have.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

2 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

 I'm talking suicidal ideation and other highly traumatic topics.

I'd like to focus on this for a sec, if I may, Maggie. As you rightly point out, this sort of discussion has absolutely no place in Region. I don't think a person should get banned for it, but people who bring up these topics should immediately be referred to specialists. Or, at the very least, a conversation between that person and another one who is sincerely concerned should be carried out in "DM". While you may have seen some positive outcomes (thankfully), I (and this may be very cynical of me) do not think that is the norm, as people hidden behind anonymity can be incredibly cruel. It would be best that these sorts of topics not be broached at all. 

[MagPrime]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

I'd like to focus on this for a sec, if I may, Maggie. As you rightly point out, this sort of discussion has absolutely no place in Region. I don't think a person should get banned for it, but people who bring up these topics should immediately be referred to specialists. Or, at the very least, a conversation between that person and another one who is sincerely concerned should be carried out in "DM". While you may have seen some positive outcomes (thankfully), I (and this may be very cynical of me) do not think that is the norm, as people hidden behind anonymity can be incredibly cruel. It would be best that these sorts of topics not be broached at all. 

I'm gonna PM you for a bit more in depthness, but... idk.  It's not always as easy as "talk to a specialist"

Since I feel I've derailed the topic, yet again, I'd like to apologize.  To bring it back on topic, I believe that DE posting the chat rules publicly would save hundreds of people a lot of time, as well as open the door to better moderation options. 

[(PSN)abbacephas]

4 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

While this may be the case, the punishment for doing this the first time should be a slap on the wrists and an admonition to not do it again. Right now, anyone who does this is accused of being 'toxic' and then treated as a 'lesser' player, even if it was a heat-of-the-moment thing or an honest mistake.

I am all for proper punishment of repeat offenders. That's the whole idea behind the 'Warning Points' system here one the forums; if you keep mouthing off, you get banned, but if you shape up and be respectful, the points expire and everything is OK. I myself have gotten warning points in the past, at which point I just stopped posting for a while and cooled off, then started up again when the points disappeared. I haven't gotten one in a while, and that is because I don't say everything that comes into my head.

In fact, if we are going to be honest, all of us have had some form of 'toxic' thought in the past. We're just smart enough to not say it. Some people aren't quite smart enough to do that the first time, so we need to help them learn, not have a zero-tolerance policy and castigate them for saying something they shouldn't have.

I do understand what you're saying. Again, I may have gotten overly cynical with time, but to me, a chat suspension is, in essence "a slap on the wrists and an admonition to not do it again". Some may feel that the duration can be excessive, but, in the end, it is temporary. Would knowing the duration of your suspension be a nice addition? Sure. 

As for it being an "honest" mistake, again, this may be the cynic in me talking, but I don't believe in such a thing.

[KirukaChan]

39 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

To bring it back on topic, I believe that DE posting the chat rules publicly would save hundreds of people a lot of time, as well as open the door to better moderation options. 

This would definitely do some good.

[MagPrime]

13 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

This would definitely do some good.

Honestly, and this is the sadist talking, if DE posted the rules they could then continue with the harsh moderation.  They gave warning, people did it anyway, bam, Glen swoops in and does what he does best.  

/shrug

[(XBOX)Julbot1]

I fail to see how simply informing an offender of the duration of their ban could be seen as something that shouldn't be done. It seem like a basic thing that every system should have. I also agree that chat "strikes" should be used rather than outright bans off the bat. It lets them know that they're on thin ice and should cool it before they get silenced. It also leads to more accurate banning since those who really didn't want to offend can back off before the ban hammer lands, and those that persist anyways get rightfully banned.

[Spectre-8]

So don't get banned lol .

[MagPrime]

8 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:

So don't get banned lol .

Reading the topic before responding is generally suggested.

[artemisfortune]

24 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:

So don't get banned lol .

Never once been chatbanned.

[notlamprey]

I rarely post here these days, for reasons I'll hopefully be able to outline without too much rambling, but this particular thread is more interesting than most.

      I don't believe DE's rules for in-game and on-forums moderations are sufficiently clear or delimited. I think they leave too much room for abuse by way of convenient dialectical interpretations. I limit my presence in open game chat channels, and on these forums, mostly because I don't trust that I can avoid falling afoul of these rules or their interpreters.

     As stated above, I don't agree with the way the rules are written. I also acknowledge DE's legal right to enforce the rules of its choosing in its own private space. I no longer hold out any significant hope of changing DE's mind when it comes to the way their rules are written and interpreted, so the best path for me seems to be one of non-involvement.

     If we wanted to get technical, even the mere act of disagreeing with the rules "as currently written" could be interpreted as warranting the deactivation of our game accounts. I do have enough trust in DE to at least take the risk of registering my polite disagreement.

     The rest of this post will go into two spoilered sections, one discussing DE's legal obligations and the other discussing the psychological value of clear rules.

Legal bits:

Spoiler

DE has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. This means that they are bound by law to pursue profit for the benefit of shareholding entities and individuals. Strictly speaking, this duty isn't of a "legal" nature, but it ties into DE's obligation to abide by Ontario Provincial law. If the business doesn't abide by the law, it will be subject to financial penalty and might then be found in violation of its fiduciary responsibility. ^{law is fun!}

For the really curious and motivated, you can do your own reading straight from the law athttps://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90b16

Now, Ontario Provincial law contains some very vague and not-particularly-well-written documents like the notorious Bill C16. Laws of this type are the for-profit organization's kryptonite, because they are - wait for it - highly open to interpretation! That means these organizations must take every imaginable precaution in the drafting and execution of their own policies, to avoid being held liable according to these laws. DE is simply doing the rational thing and building the broadest, most punitive policies its customers can possibly tolerate. This isn't done out of malice, although some people within the company may be accused of acting out their own questionable motives, but the original purpose is to protect the company from legal trouble.

___

tl;dr - DE is forced into policy gymnastics to protect its ability to stay in business. It's not an enviable position, and I have some sympathy for them.                                 

Psychological bits:

Spoiler

Humans, more than any other living thing we know of, are subject to wide variations in behavior (personality - sometimes called temperament). We're also highly social.

In order to balance the competing needs of "cooperative activity" and "individual differences," we build rule systems to prevent things from getting too chaotic. These rule systems work best when the rules are defined as clearly as possible, because variation in personality means variation in perception.

My idea of "reasonable" might not be the same as yours. As an example of a rule that is too broad to be workable, let's take "The Golden Rule."

                                                    "Treat others as you would like to be treated."

Already, we can see the problem. Your idea of "how you would like to be treated" might completely fail to match mine, because humans are (almost) endlessly variable. That's a good thing, because these variations give us the best chance of surviving unknown future dangers. It does also mean that we function best in groups when the rules are clearly defined and reliably executed, to minimize differential impact upon our different temperaments.

One interesting and very important point that has already been brought up in this thread: DE do not apply their rules with scrupulous consistency. I actually think this mitigates some of the problems caused by the way these rules are written, but it leads to others.

As an example, I'm considering a problem often talked about in prior days - the appearance of preferential treatment.

As has often been observed, some groups of people suffer inordinately from DE's application of its policies. Others seem to suffer little, or perhaps not at all. It's commonly felt that newer players, and the less well-informed, feel the brunt of "rules and practice." It's also commonly felt that the Guides of the Lotus, many in-game Chat Moderators, community Forum Moderators, and certain other unaffiliated normal Members are rarely (if ever) impacted negatively by "rules and practice."

___

tl;dr - DE's policies (as written) and their execution of those policies are not, in my opinion, sufficiently aligned with the psychological requirements of "keeping people happy and healthy over long time periods." They aren't defined clearly enough for my liking, and they aren't applied consistently enough to avoid the pervasive belief that DE is highly preferential in its handling of situations. I sincerely believe they do their best, but they're clearly fighting an uphill battle.

Edit: I don't think I was clear enough in stating that I would be in favor of DE reassessing the way it handles moderation.

Edited January 12, 2018 by notlamprey

[ManniManniManni]

@Pent_, thank you for making this thread.

You've taken a lot of frustrations I felt with DE and put it in a very civil manner.

I'll refrain from commenting too specifically, since they might threaten me with another ban, so I apologize for the somewhat off-topic nature of this post, but thank you.

***

Variation is a key aspect of long-term survival. Alienating those with differing opinions may not have adverse effects today, or even tomorrow, but...enjoy some quotes from the 1995 masterpiece, Ghost in the Shell (aka Mobile Armored Riot Police)

"If we all reacted in the same way, we'd be predictable, and there's always more than one way to view a situation." - Major Motoko Kusanagi

(Referring to the variation in her squad)

"A single virus can wipe out an entire system." - The Puppet Master

(Referring to the necessity of variation in DNA)

[Spectre-8]

2 hours ago, Pent_ said:

Never once been chatbanned.

So what is this all about then ?

[MagPrime]

3 minutes ago, Spectre-8 said:

So what is this all about then ?

 

7 hours ago, Pent_ said:

This game has some of the worst I've seen, and I used to play Fallen Earth. There is no indication of how long you've been banned or why. We have tons of users seeing this, coming to the forums, and staff will ban them for longer just for asking the question. It's unacceptable. It clutters the forums, and it's just common courtesy. How do you expect anyone to learn from their mistakes if you don't even tell them what their mistake was? Instead when they ask you ban them longer? Seriously?

A bad script shouldn't run the majority of your chat moderation, and emotion shouldn't get in the way when handling offenders. DE has done both.

At most at least tell users why they were banned and for how long.

And stop banning people who get hit by chargeback bans or who unknowingly trade with a player who got plat from a third party seller. It's very anti-consumer. Of all the problems Warframe has, this one needs to be changed the most.

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

5 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

A bad script shouldn't run the majority of your chat moderation, and emotion shouldn't get in the way when handling offenders. DE has done both. Non issue

At most at least tell users why they were banned and for how long. Non issue

Rule of thumb:

Don't talk about things that don't pertain to Warframe. Or risk catching the ban hammer. Its quite simple and I apologize if that sounds cynical or cold hearted.

And stop banning people who get hit by chargeback bans or who unknowingly trade with a player who got plat from a third party seller. It's very anti-consumer. Of all the problems Warframe has, this one needs to be changed the most.

IMO This ^ is the only thing that concerns myself. And should be fixed ASAP.

 

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

 

...I didn't post that?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

10 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

...I didn't post that?

Ok. For pent not you. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(PSN)abbacephas]

18 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

...I didn't post that?

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

I wasn't expecting that.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

5 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

I wasn't expecting that.

Nobody ever does.

E2A: And if the fluffy pillows don't work, we'll bring out THE COMFY CHAIR!

Edited January 12, 2018 by (PS4)abbacephas

[artemisfortune]

45 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

Ok. For pent not you. 

Why are those non issues?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Just now, Pent_ said:

Why are those non issues?

Because bottom line the chat issues are largely self inflicted. You disagree?

[artemisfortune]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

Because bottom line the chat issues are largely self inflicted. You disagree?

Define self inflicted. You mean that people bring it on themselves? You could argue that if the guidelines were in clear view and easily accessible. But the guidelines aren't. You could also argue that repeat offenders get what they deserve, but I'm sure plenty don't even know why they were banned because sometimes the bot doesn't tell you. They just wait until the ban runs out, which is a guessing game, and if anything are discouraged from using the chat at all. All because they made what they perceived as a harmless joke.

You don't sentence someone to 5 years of prison for stealing a stick of gum.

Similarly, we shouldn't outright ban someone for one mistake. Granted this goes case by case based on severity, but that's why I'm suggesting the moderation system be redone.

[MagPrime]

38 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

Because bottom line the chat issues are largely self inflicted. You disagree?

The glaring flaw with this statement is that it implies people know the rules before hand. Because in order to self inflict damage, or anything negative, you have to know it's there and still make the choice to do it.

Since DE doesn't make it's chat rules clear and accessible, people don't know what is or isn't out of bounds until they take the leap and post it.  And even then, the rules still aren't clear after their ban has been lifted, they simply know "Don't say this one thing" but they don't know any others, because no one is telling them.

Edited January 12, 2018 by MagPrime

[Arkstorm]

9 hours ago, Pent_ said:

This game has some of the worst I've seen, and I used to play Fallen Earth. There is no indication of how long you've been banned or why. We have tons of users seeing this, coming to the forums, and staff will ban them for longer just for asking the question. It's unacceptable. It clutters the forums, and it's just common courtesy. How do you expect anyone to learn from their mistakes if you don't even tell them what their mistake was? Instead when they ask you ban them longer? Seriously?

A bad script shouldn't run the majority of your chat moderation, and emotion shouldn't get in the way when handling offenders. DE has done both.

At most at least tell users why they were banned and for how long.

And stop banning people who get hit by chargeback bans or who unknowingly trade with a player who got plat from a third party seller. It's very anti-consumer. Of all the problems Warframe has, this one needs to be changed the most.

I've been banned by DE back in Oct. 2015  by 30 years but as I submit my ticket... Took 4 days to uplift ban and just gave me  a 3 month trade ban cuz of... Reasons~ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯