Can we get a reworked moderation system?

[artemisfortune]

This game has some of the worst I've seen, and I used to play Fallen Earth. There is no indication of how long you've been banned or why. We have tons of users seeing this, coming to the forums, and staff will ban them for longer just for asking the question. It's unacceptable. It clutters the forums, and it's just common courtesy. How do you expect anyone to learn from their mistakes if you don't even tell them what their mistake was? Instead when they ask you ban them longer? Seriously?

A bad script shouldn't run the majority of your chat moderation, and emotion shouldn't get in the way when handling offenders. DE has done both.

At most at least tell users why they were banned and for how long.

And stop banning people who get hit by chargeback bans or who unknowingly trade with a player who got plat from a third party seller. It's very anti-consumer. Of all the problems Warframe has, this one needs to be changed the most.

[Asphyxxia]

9 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

And stop banning people who get hit by chargeback bans or who unknowingly trade with a player who got plat from a third party seller. It's very anti-consumer. Of all the problems Warframe has, this one needs to be changed the most.

Support can handle problems like these. For the rest, apply common sense to broken parts for a quick fix.

[artemisfortune]

Just now, Asphyxxia said:

Support can handle problems like these. For the rest, apply common sense to broken parts for a quick fix.

And support can take weeks to respond to false bans.

[KirukaChan]

Coming from someone who works full-time and sleeps regularly, I see about 2 or 3 threads daily on this subject from tons of people. Ban length/reason being programmed into the chat bot would certainly, if nothing else, make less work for forum staff.

[(PSN)AngelShur]

18 hours ago, Pent_ said:

And support can take weeks to respond to false bans.

Eh, I don’t believe that there’s false bans honestly. People well know what they do or have done. 

About telling them for how long they’ve been banned I can see the plus in this one. But on the other hand they can reflect about what they’ve done.. I honestly agree that maybe they should get a response as to how long they’re banned.

 

Q: I was kicked/banned and I disagree with the action taken. What should I do?
A: Please send a ticket to support.warframe.com with a detailed report of what you were kicked/banned for and why you are contesting it. Keep in mind that the Chat Moderators - same goes for the Chatbots are working based on a "Mature" rating, with an eye on swear words, foul language and disruptive/negative behaviour just as much as more blatant rule violations. Their main goal is to keep the chat channels (primarily Region) respectful and as squeaky clean they can keep it. 

If you are unable to get in contact with a Chat Moderator, or are unhappy with the outcome of your conversations and wish to continue the appeal, you are welcome to submit a ticket to support for further review. Expect some delay, as the team is fairly busy.

Q: I keep getting banned from chat, what am I doing wrong? 
A: If you have repeated the same offense several times, or have continued to violate the rules, you will continue to be banned from chat either by a Chat Moderator or by the Chatbots.

Q: How long do chat bans last?
A: Depending on the severity or frequency of the violation, bans can last an hour, a day, or a week. Chat Moderators are unable to permanently suspend access to chat, so if you are unable to rejoin chat after a week, please contact support. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by (PS4)AngelShur
Added some facts to the thread.

[Gabbynaru]

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/906649-chat-ban-time-indication/?tab=comments#comment-9383756

Glen already gave an answer on most of your points.

Though, I do agree with the last point. Being banned for trading with a scammer or whatever (who you have no idea or indication they might be that) is really bad.

[artemisfortune]

4 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/906649-chat-ban-time-indication/?tab=comments#comment-9383756

Glen already gave an answer on most of your points.

Though, I do agree with the last point. Being banned for trading with a scammer or whatever (who you have no idea or indication they might be that) is really bad.

That's why I made this post.

Glen's response is not okay.

Eh, I don’t believe that there’s false bans honestly. People well know what they do or have done. 

So every person you trade with you interview them on if they got their platinum from a third party seller? Or you ask them to sign a contract saying they aren't going to call their bank to chargeback the platinum sale and leave you with a negative balance? How exactly are you supposed to know where the platinum came from?

Edited January 11, 2018 by Pent_

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, Pent_ said:

That's why I made this post.

Glen's response is not okay.

I personally am fine with that answer. No reason to give QoL improvements to toxic players when Warframe has so many other things it could improve. Toxic players should just take it on the chin and go on with their days.They got temporarily banned. Big deal. If they know what they said, they should learn not to say it again and deal with it.

If DE considers words like trap or gay problematic, it's DE's right to police them. You're playing their game, therefore you have to respect their rules. Not impose yours.

I don't really see what the problem is, honestly. People breaking the rules then complaining about breaking the rules... Yeah, Glen is right to threaten them with a ban extension. After all, DE makes the rules, not the banned players.

[artemisfortune]

Just now, Gabbynaru said:

I personally am fine with that answer. No reason to give QoL improvements to toxic players when Warframe has so many other things it could improve. Toxic players should just take it on the chin and go on with their days.They got temporarily banned. Big deal. If they know what they said, they should learn not to say it again and deal with it.

If DE considers words like trap or gay problematic, it's DE's right to police them. You're playing their game, therefore you have to respect their rules. Not impose yours.

I don't really see what the problem is, honestly. People breaking the rules then complaining about breaking the rules... Yeah, Glen is right to threaten them with a ban extension. After all, DE makes the rules, not the banned players.

So by your logic, if someone gets arrested they shouldn't get to know what they did or how long their sentence is? I mean they just had to know what they did wrong right? Everyone has the exact same morals so everyone should know that right and wrong is completely black and white.

Not to mention there is no list of banned words or phrases that is released to the public. I can't even find any real chat rules other than "Be nice be respectful." So how exactly do you expect people to know what is and isn't allowed especially when they're getting autobanned and not told why.

[Gabbynaru]

6 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

So by your logic, if someone gets arrested they shouldn't get to know what they did or how long their sentence is? I mean they just had to know what they did wrong right? Everyone has the exact same morals so everyone should know that right and wrong is completely black and white.

Not to mention there is no list of banned words or phrases that is released to the public. I can't even find any real chat rules other than "Be nice be respectful." So how exactly do you expect people to know what is and isn't allowed especially when they're getting autobanned and not told why.

But that's an issue of transparency, not of in-game QoL improvements for toxic players.. Nowhere near what you asked. DE can (I dunno if they will) just post a list of rules and a list of banned words and be done with it. Your request fulfilled. They already are giving away internal data for drops, making a forum post with the rules shouldn't be that hard.

Implementing QoL changes for toxic players in the game however... That's not worth the effort. Never will be.

You have the right to be mad, doesn't change the fact that your request is simply over the top. A forum post should suffice. Heck, here, I'll summon @[DE]Glenhere to give him this idea. No need to cause such a fuss over a mere lack of a forum post. Yeah, DE can be more transparent. Toxic players can also be less toxic. Doesn't change the fact that neither of them are, and both are paying each other in the same coin.

[(PSN)AngelShur]

20 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

So every person you trade with you interview them on if they got their platinum from a third party seller? Or you ask them to sign a contract saying they aren't going to call their bank to chargeback the platinum sale and leave you with a negative balance? How exactly are you supposed to know where the platinum came from?

No, that’s not the case.. but for those players DE (through support) will rectify the ban. But if you happen to have a suggestion for that issue specific, please bring it on the feedback sub-forum.

[KirukaChan]

36 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

I personally am fine with that answer. No reason to give QoL improvements to toxic players when Warframe has so many other things it could improve. Toxic players should just take it on the chin and go on with their days.They got temporarily banned. Big deal. If they know what they said, they should learn not to say it again and deal with it.

If DE considers words like trap or gay problematic, it's DE's right to police them. You're playing their game, therefore you have to respect their rules. Not impose yours.

I don't really see what the problem is, honestly. People breaking the rules then complaining about breaking the rules... Yeah, Glen is right to threaten them with a ban extension. After all, DE makes the rules, not the banned players.

This is decent logic from an interpersonal standpoint, sure. But when I think about it from a business standpoint, I get confused. Sure, there are bad apples who simply refuse to change their ways no matter how many warnings they get, but there are also plenty of folks who don't know something might be considered offensive by the powers that be (especially given how that list seems to keep getting longer day after day); for example, a "slur" that started as an internet meme from the mouth of a talking goldfish of all things. One could argue "ignorance isn't an excuse", but why? The player base is the customer base. If someone is willing to accept their punishment but just wants a little more information (especially if it means preventing the issue from happening again), why not end the experience with a mutual understanding rather than just stirring the pot more?

That's how I'd do it. De-escalation leads to customer retention, which leads to more money made. On the flip side, people are more likely to talk to others about negative experiences than positive ones, and I for one want as many people as possible to speak positively of their Warframe experience so the game keeps getting more and more popular, so that DE can keep delivering awesome content.

[artemisfortune]

On 1/11/2018 at 7:48 PM, Gabbynaru said:

But that's an issue of transparency, not of in-game QoL improvements for toxic players.. Nowhere near what you asked. DE can (I dunno if they will) just post a list of rules and a list of banned words and be done with it. Your request fulfilled. They already are giving away internal data for drops, making a forum post with the rules shouldn't be that hard.

Implementing QoL changes for toxic players in the game however... That's not worth the effort. Never will be.

You have the right to be mad, doesn't change the fact that your request is simply over the top. A forum post should suffice. Heck, here, I'll summon Glen here to give him this idea. No need to cause such a fuss over a mere lack of a forum post. Yeah, DE can be more transparent. Toxic players can also be less toxic. Doesn't change the fact that neither of them are, and both are paying each other in the same coin.

This same mindset is why white supremacy has seen a rise over the years. If you don't extend your hand to seemingly "toxic" players, then you only promote toxicity by alienating them. They won't learn, they'll grow angrier at both those in charge of the system and the system itself. Contempt can only breed contempt. Adding in the most basic "here is why you were banned and here is how long you were banned" isn't over the top. The information already exist, all they have to do is give it to the user.

[(PSN)AngelShur]

“Having negative Platinum

We understand that having a negative Platinum balance isn’t always the player’s fault, but we have no way of immediately knowing if your situation is the result of a mistake, overly cautious banks/payment providers, or fraud. There are extremely rare cases where a recent purchase bounces back because it wasn’t authenticated properly by the merchant, but that is quickly remedied by checking your Steam Wallet or account balance. If the funds didn’t go through simply repurchase the package to get you out of the negatives. If you used a coupon that was consumed in the process, be sure to contact Support for further assistance.

Players have never had Platinum removed or been banned for trading fairly with a regular player that had a chargeback. Yet, if you buy from a goldfarmer, you can get banned or have those trades reversed as your Platinum was not purchased legitimately. The only safe way to acquire in-game items is through authorized sellers like warframe.com/buyplatinum or Steam, to mitigate risk of triggering the AutoBan system but also for your own safety as a consumer.

Again, every ban is reviewed by more than one person with evidence to back it up. Each one is now accompanied by a message outlining the reasons why you were banned. If you feel they are unjust, please make an appeal. This system is not set up to punish unlucky users, but to weed out the toxic players who make Warframe unfair for everyone.”

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by (PS4)AngelShur
Quoted from Adams post.

[artemisfortune]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)AngelShur said:

Having negative Platinum

We understand that having a negative Platinum balance isn’t always the player’s fault, but we have no way of immediately knowing if your situation is the result of a mistake, overly cautious banks/payment providers, or fraud. There are extremely rare cases where a recent purchase bounces back because it wasn’t authenticated properly by the merchant, but that is quickly remedied by checking your Steam Wallet or account balance. If the funds didn’t go through simply repurchase the package to get you out of the negatives. If you used a coupon that was consumed in the process, be sure to contact Support for further assistance.

Players have never had Platinum removed or been banned for trading fairly with a regular player that had a chargeback. Yet, if you buy from a goldfarmer, you can get banned or have those trades reversed as your Platinum was not purchased legitimately. The only safe way to acquire in-game items is through authorized sellers like warframe.com/buyplatinum or Steam, to mitigate risk of triggering the AutoBan system but also for your own safety as a consumer.

Again, every ban is reviewed by more than one person with evidence to back it up. Each one is now accompanied by a message outlining the reasons why you were banned. If you feel they are unjust, please make an appeal. This system is not set up to punish unlucky users, but to weed out the toxic players who make Warframe unfair for everyone.

 

I also know how PR works. People can often say "Well there is nothing we can do" and there is clearly things they can do that they don't want to do.

[Gabbynaru]

5 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

This same mindset is why white supremacy has seen a rise over the years. If you don't extend your hand to seemingly "toxic" players, then you only promote toxicity by alienating them. They won't learn, they'll grow angrier at both those in charge of the system and the system itself. Contempt can only breed contempt. Adding in the most basic "here is why you were banned and here is how long you were banned" isn't over the top. The information already exist, all they have to do is give it to the user.

Yeah, and how would a stickied forum post not help with that? You come here complaining that the forums get flooded every day with people asking for explanations, I offer you a simple solution, and you choose to ignore it for no reason. A forum post that explains the rules, the banned words and the ban durations, stickied under the Rules and Guidelines subforum sounds like more than enough to me. Not to mention is very quick and very easy to implement, doesn't take from development time, it just requires a forum moderator to take an hour and write all that down, and there we go, there's the solution to your problem.

[(PSN)AngelShur]

17 hours ago, Pent_ said:

This same mindset is why white supremacy has seen a rise over the years. If you don't extend your hand to seemingly "toxic" players, then you only promote toxicity by alienating them. They won't learn, they'll grow angrier at both those in charge of the system and the system itself. Contempt can only breed contempt. Adding in the most basic "here is why you were banned and here is how long you were banned" isn't over the top. The information already exist, all they have to do is give it to the user.

Players are already being told why they were banned... only the length is not being told as of yet unless it’s a moderator. Who knows this might change in the near future. 

I was lost at some point in your OP. I believe we reached the main point now: negative plat ban is explained above. Toxic player banning is explained above. Maybe even a suggestion is suggested above. Let’s please not bring in racial slurs. 

Thanks for your feedback!

Edited January 12, 2018 by (PS4)AngelShur

[MagPrime]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)AngelShur said:

Players are already being told why they were banned... only the length is not being told as of yet unless it’s a moderator. Who knows this might change in the near future. 

We were lost at some point in your OP. I believe we reached the main point now: negative play ban is explained above. Toxic player banning is explained above. Maybe even a suggestion is suggested above. Let’s please not bring in racial slurs. 

Thanks for your feedback!

White supremacy is not a racial slur.

[artemisfortune]

3 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Yeah, and how would a stickied forum post not help with that? You come here complaining that the forums get flooded every day with people asking for explanations, I offer you a simple solution, and you choose to ignore it for no reason. A forum post that explains the rules, the banned words and the ban durations, stickied under the Rules and Guidelines subforum sounds like more than enough to me. Not to mention is very quick and very easy to implement, doesn't take from development time, it just requires a forum moderator to take an hour and write all that down, and there we go, there's the solution to your problem.

There is also a stickied post on what does and doesn't go in general discussion, and that's worked so well. Why are you so against giving information out that already exist? Because you think they don't deserve it? How? Just because you think they might be toxic doesn't mean they aren't a person, and doesn't mean they can't learn from their mistakes, but one has to know what mistake they made to learn from it.

And again, the development time to display information that already exist in your ban information is so laughably easy that a high schooler in a java class could probably figure it out.

it's almost as easy as log("You were banned for" + reason + "for" + time);

[(PSN)AngelShur]

1 minute ago, MagPrime said:

White supremacy is not a racial slur.

It’s a thin line... Noah is that you?

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, (PS4)AngelShur said:

It’s a thin line... Noah is that you?

While I don't agree that it is, I apologize for the mini derailment.

And yes. ^.^

[KIREEK]

50 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

This game has some of the worst I've seen, and I used to play Fallen Earth. There is no indication of how long you've been banned or why. We have tons of users seeing this, coming to the forums, and staff will ban them for longer just for asking the question. It's unacceptable. It clutters the forums, and it's just common courtesy. How do you expect anyone to learn from their mistakes if you don't even tell them what their mistake was? Instead when they ask you ban them longer? Seriously?

A bad script shouldn't run the majority of your chat moderation, and emotion shouldn't get in the way when handling offenders. DE has done both.

At most at least tell users why they were banned and for how long.

Kickbot specifies the reason for kicks actually, only manual bans are different, some do state the reason and this often happens before the kick, in any case i remind you that when you start playing the game, proper conduct is expected right from the start, so trolling chat in some way will obviously be picked up by a moderator, a reason isn't required really

Quote

And stop banning people who get hit by chargeback bans or who unknowingly trade with a player who got plat from a third party seller. It's very anti-consumer. Of all the problems Warframe has, this one needs to be changed the most.

It's anti exploit since the plat or the player is removed, sometimes inocent players who purchased goodies are penalized and support can revert the automated system by removing some conntent from the account (like skin bundles), but other times it's meant to keep fraudulent players and plat out of the game, even if they have duplicate accounts and use the gifting system, they know that once they gift and the plat is removed, it's the main account that receives the ban.

The change you're requesting is the reason why other games have players with premium skins that they never actually bought.

In warframe as soon you buy fraudulent plat, plat that belongs to a stolen account because the user didn't take proper steps to protect credentials, plat that shouldn't be in the game due to a chargeback, you are automatically logged, so even if you don't chat with anyone, even if the plat remains in your account for a few weeks, support, once they find the plat suplier, all traders are affected and from them do the collateral damage appears aswell, the difference is, collateral damage can ask for some things (not all of them) to be removed, they can ask for a recreation of the item lost in a certain trade and they can return to playing the game

Takes time? yes

It's annoying? yes

Do certain players exploit this to ban newbies? yes

It's not a perfect system, but far better than an illecit cosmetics flooding the game.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Here's the problem:

Quote

1. User Content that is unlawful, libelous, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, indecent, lewd, suggestive, harassing, threatening, invasive of privacy or publicity rights, abusive, inflammatory, fraudulent or otherwise objectionable;
2. User Content that would constitute, encourage or provide instructions for a criminal offense, violate the rights of any party, or that would otherwise create liability or violate any local, state, national or international law,
3. User Content that may infringe any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other intellectual or proprietary right of any party. By posting any User Content, you represent and warrant that you have the lawful right to distribute and reproduce such User Content
4. User Content that impersonates any person or entity or otherwise misrepresents your affiliation with a person or entity;
5. Unsolicited promotions, political campaigning, advertising or solicitations;
6. Private information of any third party, including, without limitation, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses, Social Security numbers and credit card numbers;
7. Viruses, corrupted data or other harmful, disruptive or destructive files; and
8. User Content that violates the Rules of Conduct or that, in the sole judgment of DIGITAL EXTREMES, is objectionable or which restricts or inhibits any other person from using or enjoying the Interactive Areas or the Site, or which may expose Digital Extremes or its users to any harm or liability of any type.

This is the list of things you cannot post in-game or on the forums. The problem stems from the fact that a skilled enough linguist or lawyer could construe anything to be on this list. The 'trap' meme that started all of this technically violated the part about "intellectual or proprietary right of any party" due to being based off of a Star Wars quote, long before it became an issue of being "otherwise objectionable". Also, just by saying 'Star Wars' in my post, I too am violating the ToS due to what I just outlined. All of the Role-Play forum violates line 4, and most of Off-Topic violates lines 3 and/or 4. Not to mention the fact that, even if they did put out a list of words you can't use, they could still get you with line 8, because they can selectively choose what does and does not violate line 8 at their leisure, and how long a violation lasts. They could even apply things to one user/group and not to another user/group, because line 8 says that they can.

To make things even more interesting, further down in the ToS they state that anything and everything you say or post in-game or on the forums belongs to them (so no using weapon ideas you posted here in other game), but that they have no responsibility for what is found here. Excuse me, but I'm pretty sure ownership implies responsibility in most legal systems. In fact, most legal systems have protections from personal responsibilities of corporate ownership, I.E. your corpaoration is liable for things done on its property, but you aren't. This would apply here, meaning the DE as a whole is responsible for what is said on the forums and in-game, which is the reason they police it the way that they do. And yet, despite this, they try to claim in the ToS that DE has no responsibility for the forums and game chat, which then begs the question, "If they aren't the ones responsible, why aren't they the ones regulating it?".

So yeah, free speech, free thought, and free action do not exist the moment you login to the forums or the game itself.

[Gabbynaru]

2 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

There is also a stickied post on what does and doesn't go in general discussion, and that's worked so well. Why are you so against giving information out that already exist? Because you think they don't deserve it? How? Just because you think they might be toxic doesn't mean they aren't a person, and doesn't mean they can't learn from their mistakes, but one has to know what mistake they made to learn from it.

And again, the development time to display information that already exist in your ban information is so laughably easy that a high schooler in a java class could probably figure it out.

it's almost as easy as log("You were banned for" + reason + "for" + time);

...Can you explain to me why are you jumping to conclusions like this? Or why the only solution you are willing to accept is the one you throw around?

I will state once again, what I proposed is a simple and easily deployable solution. I am not against withholding information. In case you forgot your own words, DE is against giving QoL improvements to toxic players. So, I offered an alternative solution to that. Is it perfect? Probably not. As you said, people don't really read the rules. However, it's a fallback. Someone post a thread asking for a reason and a ban duration, you just link to the sticked forum post. It's a step towards transparency. Heck, it's a lot more transparent than anything we have now. So, even if DE doesn't want to implement this in the game, players would still have at least one resource to fall back to and consult. Why is such a simple concept so hard to grasp, I wonder?

[artemisfortune]

1 minute ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Here's the problem:

This is the list of things you cannot post in-game or on the forums. The problem stems from the fact that a skilled enough linguist or lawyer could construe anything to be on this list. The 'trap' meme that started all of this technically violated the part about "intellectual or proprietary right of any party" due to being based off of a Star Wars quote, long before it became an issue of being "otherwise objectionable". Also, just by saying 'Star Wars' in my post, I too am violating the ToS due to what I just outlined. All of the Role-Play forum violates line 4, and most of Off-Topic violates lines 3 and/or 4. Not to mention the fact that, even if they did put out a list of words you can't use, they could still get you with line 8, because they can selectively choose what does and does not violate line 8 at their leisure, and how long a violation lasts. They could even apply things to one user/group and not to another user/group, because line 8 says that they can.

To make things even more interesting, further down in the ToS they state that anything and everything you say or post in-game or on the forums belongs to them (so no using weapon ideas you posted here in other game), but that they have no responsibility for what is found here. Excuse me, but I'm pretty sure ownership implies responsibility in most legal systems. In fact, most legal systems have protections from personal responsibilities of corporate ownership, I.E. your corpaoration is liable for things done on its property, but you aren't. This would apply here, meaning the DE as a whole is responsible for what is said on the forums and in-game, which is the reason they police it the way that they do. And yet, despite this, they try to claim in the ToS that DE has no responsibility for the forums and game chat, which then begs the question, "If they aren't the ones responsible, why aren't they the ones regulating it?".

So yeah, free speech, free thought, and free action do not exist the moment you login to the forums or the game itself.

See, this I understand, but it still doesn't excuse being hostile to players who break rules outside of their initial punishment, or excuse not giving even the most basic information to players to help them learn from their mistakes.

So while DE can do what they want doesn't mean they should, and if they do, doesn't meant they're free of criticism or should be praised because "oh ho ho look at all the good they do." I do get what you're saying though.