Can we get a reworked moderation system?

[KirukaChan]

41 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Please find where anyone has bashed on a dev.

And I don't mean the posts where people have expressed concern over one person's behaviour, I mean go to the forum guidelines and using the example provided there, and find any instance of legitimate dev bashing.

After that, please find where people have been toxic.

I think RDeschain82's concern was not the current state of the thread, but what it could become. Which, yeah, it could happen. The folks partaking so far seem pretty chill, though.

[(PSN)abbacephas]

I've been giving this some thought and I've had an idea. Instead of reworking chat moderation, why not just nip this in the bud at the source: either a) entirely remove Region chat or b) repurpose it to be "Players-helping-Players" chat. That way, players have a place where they can ask (and receive) help, without it being drowned out with other nonsense. Relays can remain as hubs where players can meet up to chat and the chat moderation can remain as is. Quite frankly, I see no reason to change it.

Many have decried the severity of being suspended, or the fact that they don't know why they've been suspended, or for how long they've been suspended. The only (potentially) legitimate complaint would be the duration, though one shouldn't feel like they should be owed it. When disciplining children, parents don't always provide full disclosure of how long a particular punishment will last.

As for the reason why you were suspended, why not think about what you were saying prior to the suspension. That is probably the reason WHY you got suspended. Now, there are many who will say, "Well, this game is rated M for Mature, so I shouldn't be filtered from expressing blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda..." Yes, the game is rated M for Mature, but what does that mean? It implies, in my mind at least, that the individuals playing possess a certain level of maturity indicative of an intelligent, civil adult. Is everyone playing this game 18+? Obviously not. As such, chat should be monitored, and suspensions handed out, for inappropriate behaviour and comments. Excuses like, "Well, I didn't know." or "But I was joking!" or "Well, everyone else is doing it!" is something I expect to hear from 5 year olds, not intelligent people who hold themselves accountable for their actions (or in this case, their words).

I've had conversations with people that have pointed out that some good has come out of Region. While that is certainly encouraging, it seems (to me at least) that the bad far outweighs the good. Keeping friendly chatter restricted to the relays (and, in the process, maybe recruiting more Mods to help deal with the ever increasing load of players) may be the best way to curb the sudden influx of "I've been banned from chat..." threads that has been inundating the forum as of late. 

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, KirukaChan said:

I think RDeschain82's concern was not the current state of the thread, but what it could become. Which, yeah, it could happen. The folks partaking so far seem pretty chill, though.

That is understandable however, if you scroll through the previous pages, this isn't the first time they've claimed this.  

It's rather frustrating to try conversing with someone who will suddenly claim "dev bashing!1!! Tocixty!! Inb4 lock!" Just because they either can't come up with a response or are frustrated with you and are using lame scare tactics.

 

[_Vortus_]

2 hours ago, KirukaChan said:

The opposition to the opening post is pretty much saying "The ToS is a thing, and DE can do what they want," and while I don't deny those facts (I don't think anyone really is), to me this isn't about what DE can and can't do from a legal or a moral standpoint. To me, it's about customer relations and sweet, sweet grofit.

At more than one job, I had it drilled into my head that even if the customer is wrong, or even if the customer is being rude, I still had to do my best to be professional and not act in a condescending manner toward them not because they legitimately deserve the respect, but for the sake of damage control. This thread (and the thread linked on the first page of this one) is a good example of how what can start as a one-on-one interaction between an employee and a customer can be noticed by other customers, and affect many peoples' perception of the company as a result. It's a ripple effect.

It's far more preferable to do business in such a manner as to minimize the number of dissenters, and within that group, to maximize the number of dissenters that make themselves look like clowns.

  Reveal hidden contents

(Also, have I mentioned that I am in no way affiliated with the Corpus nor am I a Corpus sympathizer? Because I'm not.)

 

Thing is, the number of players receiving chat bans and not being happy about it, while occasionally vocal, is also a minutely small fraction of the player base.   And if we are using the customer reference, and you have an obnoxious customer bothering the rest of the customers, you escort them to the door.    If the obnoxious customer repeats the action, you stop them from coming back.    Cleaning up the bad element allows for the much larger majority of rule abiding players to continue to play without being bothered.    So it is indeed about that sweet sweet grofit.   The bot and moderators are doing a solid job.

If players want to have an unregulated conversation, don't use the game chat, use something else.

 

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

Is there a "MOTD" text for Region that reads something in the line of "If you were banned, you most likely have done something or use words that violated rules. 1st time offenders are ban for 24h and repeating offenders will be metted more severely."? 

A simple message like this will provide enough info and warning. It doesn't take up much effort to add. Make it appears every hour like the "you've been playing for over an hour, please take a break".

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

11 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

I think RDeschain82's concern was not the current state of the thread, but what it could become. Which, yeah, it could happen. The folks partaking so far seem pretty chill, though.

 

7 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

That is understandable however, if you scroll through the previous pages, this isn't the first time they've claimed this.  

It's rather frustrating to try conversing with someone who will suddenly claim "dev bashing!1!! Tocixty!! Inb4 lock!" Just because they either can't come up with a response or are frustrated with you and are using lame scare tactics.

 

Kirkuka gets me. Mags my point is that I don't believe there is a conversation that can fix the chat issue. And although the conversation has been some what civil it can eventually only go down one road. 

Edit: a few pages back there are posters calling moderation unprofessional and childish. So /shrug. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[KirukaChan]

33 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

Thing is, the number of players receiving chat bans and not being happy about it, while occasionally vocal, is also a minutely small fraction of the player base.   And if we are using the customer reference, and you have an obnoxious customer bothering the rest of the customers, you escort them to the door.    If the obnoxious customer repeats the action, you stop them from coming back.    Cleaning up the bad element allows for the much larger majority of rule abiding players to continue to play without being bothered.    So it is indeed about that sweet sweet grofit.   The bot and moderators are doing a solid job.

If players want to have an unregulated conversation, don't use the game chat, use something else.

 

Escorting them to the door is usually not the first step in that situation, though. Often times, a simple "You're bothering the other customers, can you not do that?" will be sufficient to get them behaving civilly and continuing to spend their money. The warning points system on this forum is a good example of that; only the most severe of rule infractions skip straight to a final warning or a ban.

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

 

Kirkuka gets me. Mags my point is that I don't believe there is a conversation that can fix the chat issue. And although the conversation has been some what civil it can eventually only go down one road. 

Anything can turn toxic, on any subject.  We're all aware of the potential for that and 90% of the participants have done an amazing job and maintaining civil and productive discourse. 

I just don't see the point in randomly throwing that out though.  It's a lot like telling someone not to cross the street when they have the walk sign, just because someone may run a red light.

"Don't talk about this, it could turn into devbashing!!!"

It's pointless and distracting when we're 6 pages in and it still hasn't happened, nor had any sign of happening. 

[Oreades]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)A_SimpleName said:

Is there a "MOTD" text for Region that reads something in the line of "If you were banned, you most likely have done something or use words that violated rules. 1st time offenders are ban for 24h and repeating offenders will be metted more severely."? 

A simple message like this will provide enough info and warning. It doesn't take up much effort to add. Make it appears every hour like the "you've been playing for over an hour, please take a break".

I don't think a MOTD would work because I think if you are blanket chat banned the game just pushes a "Failed to connect to chat server" error.

If they added different conditional errors like "Chat privileges suspended" that would be far more clear but I'm not sure if the chat server is actually sending anything back to the game itself as much as it is just denying that client from logging in. It might be possible to cobble something together if the game fails to connect to the chat server if they had the game attempt to determine if the reason for the failure. 

For example if your client failed to connect but the game was able to determine that the chat server was indeed up then it might be reasonable for the game to assume that the user had been banned from chat and convey a corresponding chat error message? Of course a setup like that might cause some panic down the line if ever there was a general error with the chat server but it was "active" and you could have a bunch of people needlessly worried that their chat privileges had been suspended. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Oreades

[_Vortus_]

2 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

Escorting them to the door is usually not the first step in that situation, though. Often times, a simple "You're bothering the other customers, can you not do that?" will be sufficient to get them behaving civilly and continuing to spend their money. The warning points system on this forum is a good example of that; only the most severe of rule infractions skip straight to a final warning or a ban.

Guess it would depend on the offense, but you are right on that.   A short (less than a week) chat ban, to me is the warning.  Some time off from the game is being escorted out.  Not being  allowed in is for the third strike.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

3 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Anything can turn toxic, on any subject.  We're all aware of the potential for that and 90% of the participants have done an amazing job and maintaining civil and productive discourse. 

I just don't see the point in randomly throwing that out though.  It's a lot like telling someone not to cross the street when they have the walk sign, just because someone may run a red light.

"Don't talk about this, it could turn into devbashing!!!"

It's pointless and distracting when we're 6 pages in and it still hasn't happened, nor had any sign of happening. 

I won't off topic post any longer. 

 And I'll ask the mod to delete my posts. 

17 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Just because they either can't come up with a response or are frustrated with you and are using lame scare tactics.

I apologize for being "lame", and I'll see myself out. 

Good day. 

[KirukaChan]

34 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

Guess it would depend on the offense, but you are right on that.   A short (less than a week) chat ban, to me is the warning.  Some time off from the game is being escorted out.  Not being  allowed in is for the third strike.

I'm pretty fond of the way the forum does it, though (for a single warning point for a minor infraction), in which a person is barred from posting until they have acknowledged (and hopefully read) the circumstances behind the warning point. A similar set up for chat would be cool and probably save a ton of grief on both sides. Imagine how much smaller Support's backlog would be.

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, KirukaChan said:

I'm pretty fond of the way the forum does it, though (for a single warning point for a minor infraction), in which a person is barred from posting until they have acknowledged (and hopefully read) the circumstances behind the warning point. A similar set up for chat would be cool and probably save a ton of grief on both sides. Imagine how much smaller Support's backlog would be.

Maybe the information can be sent to them via in game email, with a button they have to push to accept and acknowledge. 

[KirukaChan]

34 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Maybe the information can be sent to them via in game email, with a button they have to push to accept and acknowledge. 

Sounds good to me.

[Andele3025]

4 hours ago, Sibernetika said:

Maybe the thing that everyone is missing here is please list the stuff we can't say... And give us a reason and time for our chat ban... How are we supposed to be follow DEs personal set of rules if they aren't being transparent with them.. Its basically a sign that says this is a minefield but not stating where the mines is

Im repeating myself, but again, why is even that required? There is a chat filter, it should take care of any no-no words on its own!

[MagPrime]

7 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Im repeating myself, but again, why is even that required? There is a chat filter, it should take care of any no-no words on its own!

Notlamprays post goes over the legal aspect of warframe moderation.  A chat filter may not meet the minimum requirements that DE has to legally uphold.

[KirukaChan]

41 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

Im repeating myself, but again, why is even that required? There is a chat filter, it should take care of any no-no words on its own!

I'm way too pessimistic to believe that that has any chance at all of becoming reality in today's day and age.

[DeMonkey]

10 hours ago, Trvldl said:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/901647-suspended-from-chat-for-replying-to-someone-who-insulted-me/?do=findComment&comment=9348893

Here is one more from 2 weeks ago.

Okay? Thanks I guess. Not sure what else to add, already stated I feel they've gone too far and that I agree with everyone that we need more explanation.

This conversation gets us nowhere though if we completely demonise Glen and make him the centre of our problems, hence why I argued.

Unprofessionalism to one person, vigourous application of company standards to another. That's something that will just go around in circles all day.

[Andele3025]

59 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Notlamprays post goes over the legal aspect of warframe moderation.  A chat filter may not meet the minimum requirements that DE has to legally uphold.

If you mean the link to the Business Corporations Act, i cant find ANYTHING that relates to the the canadian human rights act that is tied to propaganda or incitement (instead of protection of property, rights, etc). Tho i am assuming Canada isnt playing so loose with its definitions that it would make the USA strict. However DE is trading on the international market, not locally, so either way WTO regulations apply, not Canadian ones. I would love to see a additional clarification if it is it in form of a "PS/BTW" just in case of a official response tho.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Andele3025

[MagPrime]

23 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

If you mean the link to the Business Corporations Act, i cant find ANYTHING that relates to the the canadian human rights act that is tied to propaganda or incitement (instead of protection of property, rights, etc). Tho i am assuming Canada isnt playing so loose with its definitions that it would make the USA strict. However DE is trading on the international market, not locally, so either way WTO regulations apply, not Canadian ones. I would love to see a additional clarification if it is it in form of a "PS/BTW" just in case of a official response tho.

No, I mean the part about Bill C16.

[Andele3025]

23 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

No, I mean the part about Bill C16.

But... Canadian human rights act and thus its amendments do not reference at any point responsibilities of non-human entities towards customers acting in public nor corporate spaces, it specifically outlines (in sections like 12-15 which with limitations are already borderline authoritarian when it comes to individual human rights/could be interpreted to mean anything, which is very funny) that its about employees of non-human entities or representative groups. I doubt anyone would be as... lax and naive to go along with the idea that every customer of DE represents DE (especially since we explicitly dont have intellectual property rights to anything related to warframe, just property of the account and plat).

Whatever, as said I really hope someone from DE posts and goes into detail on the current state of affairs.

[artemisfortune]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

I really hope someone from DE posts and goes into detail on the current state of affairs.

I also wish this. Transparency about the situation is one of the best things a company can do.

[KIREEK]

15 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

No it does not. Only moderators do that and only if they feel like it.

For example go up and try to use less common insult in the chat, you wont even notice you got kicked because theres no message, texts just stop to appear.

No reason is required

Also sometimes moderators talk to the player directly to stop the behavior, but this is something they don't need to do, reason backs them up so you can't do anything.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

4 hours ago, (PS4)abbacephas said:

As for the reason why you were suspended, why not think about what you were saying prior to the suspension. That is probably the reason WHY you got suspended. Now, there are many who will say, "Well, this game is rated M for Mature, so I shouldn't be filtered from expressing blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda..." Yes, the game is rated M for Mature, but what does that mean? It implies, in my mind at least, that the individuals playing possess a certain level of maturity indicative of an intelligent, civil adult. Is everyone playing this game 18+? Obviously not. As such, chat should be monitored, and suspensions handed out, for inappropriate behaviour and comments. Excuses like, "Well, I didn't know." or "But I was joking!" or "Well, everyone else is doing it!" is something I expect to hear from 5 year olds, not intelligent people who hold themselves accountable for their actions (or in this case, their words).

I did not know about the 'Trap' meme/'insult' until I saw someone complaining on the forums about being banned for using it, which prompted me to look it up. If I had used the word 'trap' in region chat before then, even just talking about how annoying Arc Traps are or how I kept getting killed by a Laser Trap, I would have most likely gotten banned, with no indication of why I was banned or what I could do to prevent it. I would have been discussing in-game mechanics, on an in-game chat system, and been punished for an out-of-game reason. This is why we want clarity of causality for these chat bans.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

But... Canadian human rights act and thus its amendments do not reference at any point responsibilities of non-human entities towards customers acting in public nor corporate spaces, it specifically outlines (in sections like 12-15 which with limitations are already borderline authoritarian when it comes to individual human rights/could be interpreted to mean anything, which is very funny) that its about employees of non-human entities or representative groups. I doubt anyone would be as... lax and naive to go along with the idea that every customer of DE represents DE (especially since we explicitly dont have intellectual property rights to anything related to warframe, just property of the account and plat).

In the Warframe ToS, DE claims ownership of everything posted in-game and on the forums. This means they could be sued for anything a person posts unless they take swift action against it. Also, C16 states that individual employees can be held responsible for anything in the company unless they actively oppose it.

Edited January 12, 2018 by -AoN-CanoLathra-