Updating Banshee, Mesa, Titania and Trinity's abilities to one-handed & upper-body casting animation mechanics

[Thundervision]

As far as I know, the majority of warframes can cast their abilities on the move or not cancelling certain actions such as shooting and reloading, in other words those are one-handed actions and upper body animations.

For example, the ones I remember:

1. Ash: Shuriken, Smoke Screen
2. Chroma: Vex Armour
3. Ember: Fireball
4. Excalibur: Radial Blind
5. Frost: Freeze
6. Gara: Shattered Lash (non-charged)
7. Harrow (a very good example of both): Condemn ^{one-handed animation}, Thurible ^{upper body animation}
8. Hydroid: Tempest Barrage
9. Limbo: Banish
10. Loki: Decoy
11. Mag: Pull, Magnetize, Polarize
12. Nekros: Soul Punch
13. Nidus: Larva
14. Nova: AMD, Worm Hole
15. Nyx: Psyshic Bolts
16. Oberon: Smite
17. Octavia: I believe all 4 abilites allow to move, even though some of them interrupt other actions
18. Saryn: Spores, Molt, Toxic Lash
19. Vauban: all 4 abilities allow you to move when casting
20. Volt: Shock, Speed (though it would be weird otherwise)
21. Zephyr: Tail Wind (somewhat)

So there are 21/34 warframes have abilities that don't lock them in place on casts. And it's not like it was determined by balance or something, one of the recent changes in this case was Mag-related (U20.6.1):

Quote

Mag Changes

Pull, Magnetize, and Polarize can now be cast while in motion - their animations now only take place on the upper body. 

Then there are also warframes like Atlas, Excalibur, Valkyr and Rhino with their abilities letting them charge into enemies -- even though you have little to no control during animation, those still give you some mobility.

 

Now, however, there are warframes whose abilities not only make you stop but also require you to be on the ground. I'll list the ones I still have problems with

• Banshee:

Sonic Boom -- sure it can be casted mid-air, or when sliding, or jumping. However, ironically, it can't be casted when simply running. Not a big deal when dealing with low and mid-levels, but becomes very problematic at high level. That second of casting basically makes you face tank damage before CC-ing the enemies in front of you (and Sonic Boom doesn't bypass obstacles). Would be good if you could cast it on the move, even if it interrupts weapon-related actions.

Giving it an upper-body treatment would be a good change.

Sonar -- I'm completely fine with. For effects it and augment provide (Damage buff, minimap marks, multiple sonars) getting animation locked for a second is a fair trade-off since you don't need cast in on target or directly affecting enemies at all.

Silence -- fine as it is. The only weak side is not being able to re-cast it while it's on.

• Mesa

Oh, how many turret jokes were made regarding her Peacemaker ability. Ironically, the same can be said about all her abilities. All 4 make you stop for a time of cast, but at least Shatter Shield and Shooting Gallery immediatelly give you protection and CC on cast.

Ballistic Battery (BB) -- not sure I'm the only one, but the fact that casting it makes you stop is a major "nope" to me in the middle of the battle. I do use it, but I use it very occasionally and mostly for fun. Because why would I stop to cast it to accumulate the damage from killing for a one-time one-target (multiple if PT mod is on the weapon) while also being shot at while I can just use Peacemaker to give myself the breathing room? SImply allowing Mesa to move while casting BB will give this ability much more usage as well as making ability & gunplay more fluid.

Additionaly, it would be good if BB worked the similar way upcoming Mend & Maim augment does: cast it -- accumulate damage up to 100% -- cast it again and % of add. damage will either decay over time of ability's duration or on successful shots.

Peacemaker -- I'd be down for being able to move at the expense of energy similar to Ivara's Prowl: «Prowl drains 1 point of energy per second while stationary and drains 3 energy per second while walking», or rapidly increasing the reticle while lowering damage when moving & shooting. 20-25% movement speed penalty would probably work, too. Being locked in one position while murdering stuff in fast paced missions is just wrong and also contradicts all those Homer's bird talks and fight's engagement.

• Titania

Using abilities in Razorwing mode doesn't interrupt your movements, while doing so on foot does. It's really not that kind of synergy you would want to rely on to use abilities:

Cast Silence to being able to cast Sonic Boom (safely);

Cast Shatter Shield to keep yourself safe while casting Ballistic Battery;

Cast Link/Blessing to protect yourself while casting Well of Life or Energy Vampire;

Cast Razorwing to cast other abilities with less risk (and mobility in Razorwing isn't great at all to begin with)

etc.

Spellbind -- in none-Razorwing mode, it takes about a second to cast it while also interrupting all actions. Can be pretty bad if you get caught off-guard by arrived enemies and multiple Lv.25-30 enemies can kill her while she's casting. Giving it a one-handed action treatment would really help to increase her survivability outside Razorwing mode.

Tribute -- is OK-ish, I think. You know when and what enemies to use it on to gain or maintain buffs. Between Spellbind and Lantern it's the least ability that needs to be looked at.

Lantern -- oh boy! It has everything that can kill you while giving you the impression you're safe to cast: it interrupts movement and other actions, it takes a moment to start working after successful cast and, most importantly, it takes (according to wikia) 1.3s to cast the ability. Doesn't seem right.

It really needs a feature to being able to move when casting, Titania isn't a tank by any means and it's more a CC power than an offensive one. I'm coming to such suggestions from the point of keeping the balance while also keeping the pace, but I fail to see how much of balance this one represent compared to abilities like Radial Blind, Vex Armor, Polarize, Magnetize, Larva.

• Trinity

Well of Life (WoL) -- lies in the shadow of Blessing's effect and mobility. Probably outperformed by any kind of Health consumables or melee mods. As if it weren't enough, WoL also requires to be on the ground and makes you stop in order to cast... aaand it also has 1s delay between casts. I know that when I cast Blessing it restores HP to 100% for everyone within my affinity range while also granting 75% DR and I can do that mid-air. But when I have to use WoL I know that:

a) I'll have to find a target,

b) I have to be standing on the ground,

c) I will be vulnerable for the duration of casting animation, even when it comes to Link and Blessing being active.

While it doesn't change the matter of how useful WoL is, but this is another ability which, I think, needs to be considered "one-handed action".

Energy Vampire -- personally, I'm fine with it as it is. It gives more than enough energy and with Energy Leech it also restores Shields up to Overshields while the only trade-off and requirement it has is standing on the ground in order to cast it. edit: and the enemy, of course.

Link -- the only irritating things with this one are: not being able to cast mid-air and/or not being able to cast it on the move. Changing any of these would help with mobility when things getting hot.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Thundervision

[BasKy]

What Ballistic Battery needs is to charge passively (and slower or it would probably be too strong). And I do not want a mobile Peacemaker. It is already a strong ability, it's not really energy consuming for the power it gives, and you want it to move too? Besides if people call her a turret, what do you think it will happen if she can move too. You being vulnerable is Peacemaker's tradeoff.

Sound Quake could also be castable on air (only the animation, the effect of the ability starts when you touch the ground).

And I also agree with what you say about Well of Life. It's heavily outperformed by Blessing because the latter restores both health, shield, and gives damage immunity instantly without the other players needing to shoot a target. Not even the energy cost encourages me of using Well of Life, because I have Energy Vampire. Energy is not a problem with Trinity. I think remaking this ability would be better, because one handed animation won't be enough for people to use it.

Edited January 22, 2018 by BasKy

[AlphaPHENIX]

il y a 38 minutes, Thundervision a dit :

Peacemaker -- I'd be down for being able to move at the expense of energy

I am just going to leave this right here http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Mesa's_Waltz

...touch only if you dare, but no more.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

As far as Sonic Boom goes, I feel like if they convert it to a one handed cast - something I've been advocating for god knows how long - they should also rig the animation from the Profit trailer for it instead of the hand, since it'd look much better under both running and stationary circumstances compared to the 'talk to the hand' thing.

Spoiler

 

Also, I'd say now that we have Operators 2.0, it could be a good time to silence the people that kept demanding for SQ to be mobile by allowing the player to go into Operator mode while it's active. Other frames can do that as well while they're using abilities that don't require interaction, it's only consistent to allow Banshee to do it, too. It'd solve the issue of "lack of agency" without having to spend any time on reworking an ability that is fine from the ground up.

Edited January 22, 2018 by AuroraSonicBoom

[Thundervision]

27 minutes ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

I am just going to leave this right here http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Mesa's_Waltz

...touch only if you dare, but no more.

No, absolutely big no.

Not only it will be the worst band-aid mod, there was also the one in the PvE augments pool which I hope won't make it into the game. (Not unless we get both PvP and PvE augs with the latter one not being tied to "making her walk").

Why?

Because when you can/could bug this out without any kind of mods:

I can't, unfortunately(?), come up with any justification for an augment which just allows her to walk in PM while offering zero-% of nothing else, or any trade-off.

[AlphaPHENIX]

il y a 3 minutes, Thundervision a dit :

No, absolutely big no.

Not only it will be the worst band-aid mod, there was also the one in the PvE augments pool which I hope won't make it into the game. (Not unless we get both PvP and PvE augs with the latter one not being tied to "making her walk").

Why?

Because when you can/could bug this out without any kind of mods:

-double snip- 

I can't, unfortunately(?), come up with any justification for an augment which just allows her to walk in PM while offering zero-% of nothing else, or any trade-off.

So Assimilate (granted with a lot of nerfs after release) is ok, but this isn't?

Also it's a roll with an energy cost, not a bug that let's you slowly take a few steps as if you had two Hobbled Dragon Keys equipped...if you are gona try to counter argument, at least do it right.

ALSO it just fits Mesa's gunslinger style and is definitely one of the few augments that should be usable in the Exilus slot. I mean nobody is complainging about Valkyr's Hysterical Assault, right?

[peterc3]

1 hour ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

So Assimilate (granted with a lot of nerfs after release) is ok, but this isn't?

Also it's a roll with an energy cost, not a bug that let's you slowly take a few steps as if you had two Hobbled Dragon Keys equipped...if you are gona try to counter argument, at least do it right.

ALSO it just fits Mesa's gunslinger style and is definitely one of the few augments that should be usable in the Exilus slot. I mean nobody is complainging about Valkyr's Hysterical Assault, right?

This seems like an excellent Augment for Exilus use. Adds nothing for damage technically, but ups your mobility.

[Thundervision]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

So Assimilate (granted with a lot of nerfs after release) is ok, but this isn't?

You're comparing a really powerful offensive ability that scales off the weapon mods to an awful defensive one, that's not fair, mate.

Absorb is a Magnetic-based ability (it already sucks by default) which can't absorb magnetic damage (10% is laughable) and can't be considered offensive even against the Corpus. In additional for every 1000 damage you absorb you pay with extra energy (which is similar to channeling block at high level). And what's with the Assimilate... right, it lets you to move at walking pace at the cost of disabled parkour elements and halved range while still having an energy drain. And it also changes ability from a defensive role to a tanky one, to me this sounds like what all the augments should do in the first place.

As for the Peacemaker:

I admit that writing 'no trade-off' was pretty poor. But by this time I consider it pretty insulting to release such simple augment 2 years later with nothing else to offer. That's why I am so against it.

1 hour ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

Also it's a roll with an energy cost, not a bug that let's you slowly take a few steps as if you had two Hobbled Dragon Keys equipped...if you are gona try to counter argument, at least do it right.

Well...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/63b0uo/tcn_indev_page_tracking_all_things_currently_in/dfspyed/

Quote

Mesa - Peacemaker - Allows her to move at walking pace.

> said poll ended on May, 2016.

As for the Waltz:

5en/roll won't even be noticeable given that Peacemaker itself has 15en/s drain, because those who mod Mesa for negative or 100% eff won't probably even use this augment in the first place, and to those who have up to 90% eff on Mesa it won't make a difference. Roll also gives you, what... 75% or 80% DR? With SS's 95% DR on the top.

Spoiler

Isn't Hysterical Assault affected by Range which is a 'no-no' stat to go with on Hysteria? I'm pretty sure a good part of DC goes mad (including me) when cheap, lazy or straight buff augment ideas get implemented leaving good ideas behind. There was Hysteria augment that would summon feral kavats, sadly, I don't remember if HA was the first place or wild Kavats. Just saying, you can see how 'genius' some ideas can be.

My only and only complaint about Peacemaker 'possible' augment is the bandaid-esque nature of such augment that offers nothing but an ability to move which could've been a feature of basic ability in the first place. Like I said: Not unless we get both PvP and PvE augs with the latter one not being tied to "making her walk". Between something unique and being able to move in ulti, I'll pick the former one.

Besides, if they make Waltz usable in PvE I doubt it will be considere Exilus mod, IIRC, Swing Line doesn't fit it.

And a quick reminder:this thread has nothing to do with the augments at all. Not even close. Please.

[AlphaPHENIX]

il y a 30 minutes, Thundervision a dit :

And a quick reminder:this thread has nothing to do with the augments at all. Not even close. Please.

True, but...

Il y a 4 heures, Thundervision a dit :

Peacemaker -- I'd be down for being able to move at the expense of energy similar to Ivara's Prowl: «Prowl drains 1 point of energy per second while stationary and drains 3 energy per second while walking», or rapidly increasing the reticle while lowering damage when moving & shooting. 20-25% movement speed penalty would probably work, too. Being locked in one position while murdering stuff in fast paced missions is just wrong and also contradicts all those Homer's bird talks and fight's engagement.

I only gave the info that we already sort of had something similiar...Conclave exclusive may it be, though honestly it shouldn't.

Révélation

 

il y a 34 minutes, Thundervision a dit :

I admit that writing 'no trade-off' was pretty poor. But by this time I consider it pretty insulting to release such simple augment 2 years later with nothing else to offer. That's why I am so against it.

I agree that's it's little, but techincally it would only be hotfix that let's you also use it in PvE. Also from what I could roughly gather with the wiki, it was released somehwere around 2016 (possibly April of that year) and Mesa was released near the end of November, 2014...So the distance is more or less over 1 year.

il y a 41 minutes, Thundervision a dit :

As for the Waltz:

5en/roll won't even be noticeable given that Peacemaker itself has 15en/s drain, because those who mod Mesa for negative or 100% eff won't probably even use this augment in the first place, and to those who have up to 90% eff on Mesa it won't make a difference. Roll also gives you, what... 75% or 80% DR? With SS's 95% DR on the top.

A mod only usable in Conclave...would of course be balanced for Conclave. A slight number change that will only take effect in PvE shouldn't be too difficult to do.

il y a 46 minutes, Thundervision a dit :

Isn't Hysterical Assault affected by Range which is a 'no-no' stat to go with on Hysteria?

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Hysterical_Assault Isn't the deffault range of 30m (max rank) plenty?

il y a 49 minutes, Thundervision a dit :

...Exilus mod, IIRC, Swing Line doesn't fit it.

And I never understood why not either.

il y a 50 minutes, Thundervision a dit :

I admit that writing 'no trade-off' was pretty poor. But by this time I consider it pretty insulting to release such simple augment 2 years later with nothing else to offer. That's why I am so against it.

I feel ya, but stupid stuff like these just happen sometimes.

 

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Hell yes! Gimmie a slow walk like assimilate or a roll like the PvP augment. 

Stick it in my exilus! gimmie gimmie gimmie!!

And yes a passive 1 or a one handed animation. 

Also areal peacemaker animation, tired of the stiff like a board!

Edited January 23, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Andele3025]

11 hours ago, Thundervision said:

No, absolutely big no.

Not only it will be the worst band-aid mod, there was also the one in the PvE augments pool which I hope won't make it into the game. (Not unless we get both PvP and PvE augs with the latter one not being tied to "making her walk")

Id love to see dodge roll in Peacemaker at the cost of 25~5 energy (depending on time since last dodge/to keep it as a defensive thing) be a base thing, Then give her a augment that will allow her to do it for free and cause her to shoot a few base damage rounds of her Regulators when she normally dodges while aiming (which would contribute to the starting damage multiplier next time peacemaker is used).

[AlphaPHENIX]

Il y a 19 heures, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 a dit :

Hell yes! Gimmie a slow walk like assimilate or a roll like the PvE augment. 

PvP*

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

PvP*

Yeah

Edited January 23, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

PvP*

Ty