Warframe armor standards

[Flustershy]

Lets get straight to the point shall we.

2 Years ago at the start of 2016 i started to take note of all the armor values of new frames, the reason why i did this is because its time for DE to increase armor of all the warframes that have under 100 armor prime or not, if you take look at all the warframes released in past 2 years, Inaros,nidus,octavia, harrow, gara, and khora have over 100 armor, the only frame from past 2 years that doesn't have 100 armor is Titania, while still frames like Nekros, Nyx, banshee, and zephyr roll with 15-65 armor.

So DE clearly has raised the average base armor levels so that all new frames most likely have 100 or more armor, so why haven't frames with less than 100 armor gotten simple armor buffs, and i think its wrong that players have to wait for a frame rework or a prime version to come by and fix this issue (nekros and nyx primes both have 65 armor still)

But i want to make it clear that i'm not saying that every frame should have Valkyr tiers of armor, but what i do want is that older low armor frames will be buffed since all the new frames have 2-3 times the armor when compared to them.

So if DE could spend the time to buff older frames rather than just ignoring them by giving all the new frames higher armor levels so people cant complain about their armor values would be much appreciated, especially when its a change so easy to do it doesn't need weeks of play testing to see if it breaks the game nor countless hours and vast amount time and resources from the devs themselves.

 

Or... you know armor and shields 2.0  that could work aswell ??? 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Flustershy
Bad phrasing.

[Flustershy]

Also i do want to state here that, even if the warframes with low armor levels have means to avoid damage, getting 1 or 2 shotted past level 40 is not fun, and actively drives players away from those frames. especially in corpus missions where nullifiers or those roller skate men are around.

[Raspberry]

Although I like your direction in thinking, this change would do absolutely nothing in the grand scope of things. I think you've noticed, too, since you speak of getting 1-shotted even at pre-sortie levels. The entire concept of end-game difficulty needs a thorough second look, since currently, end-game is balanced around an average 4-man squad against lvl 100 enemies. Solo is extremely unbalanced, and a good squad can trivialize content even beyond lvl 300.

[Flustershy]

2 minutes ago, Raspberri said:

Although I like your direction in thinking, this change would do absolutely nothing in the grand scope of things. I think you've noticed, too, since you speak of getting 1-shotted even at pre-sortie levels. The entire concept of end-game difficulty needs a thorough second look, since currently, end-game is balanced around an average 4-man squad against lvl 100 enemies. Solo is extremely unbalanced, and a good squad can trivialize content even beyond lvl 300.

You are right, but mostly i want this change is because the low armor levels are really bad in certain situations where having 150 armor would save you, for example, the big explosive barrels in kuva fortress deal 1650 damage, if you have 65 armor, while it suddenly does something around 500 to 125 armor frames...

Other thing where the low armor values are really critical are against tusk predators (the sword guys on plains) their weapons deal high slash damage making them more dangerous than lets say their lvl 35 bombards or heavy gunners they can do around 800 damage to health around lvl 35, which is ridiculous when you have a unit that somehow does more damage than those everbroken napalms (plz fix napalm projectiles DE) .

So yeah in grand scheme of things the change wouldn't do much, but i still feel like that those frames are getting the cold shoulder really.

[Mokkun108]

I mentioned it somewhat earlier in hydroid feedback that more recent warframe reworks always get substantial armor boosts. Oberon, hydroid recieved double armor buffs with rework and than prime variants. It feels unfair, yes. But in the end, armor or not you'll get one shot. Slash and toxin will just ignore armor entirely, valkyr and chroma melt too. Nekros doesn't need armor due to health conversion.

[Flustershy]

On 28.1.2018 at 9:23 PM, Mokkun108 said:

 Nekros doesn't need armor due to health conversion.

That's pretty shallow way of thinking really, just because a mod exist to fix a problem it shouldn't be almost mandatory mod for one frame and pretty much trash tier for other frames, also after you have your hp/ shield mods, power str range durations and efficiency / maybe some mobility mods, you might have room for 1 mod, and health conversion definitely is not the number 1 mod you could choose.

Also, Nekros didn't get armor boosts neither with his rework or his prime access, Nyx hasn't been reworked and she only got that +50 armor boosts with prime access and so did banshee but 65 armor isn't groundbreaking even though it is 4x the armor they used to have, and we shall see what happens to zephyrs armor values on her rework and prime access.

 

+ my post wasn't about frame getting one shotted it was about the fact that DE has basically raised the average minimum armor to be somewhere between 125-150 for all the new frames, yet not buffing existing frames with with low armor value and not dependable survival skills themselfs.

 Nyx ulti is clunky even with the augment which just slows down the pace when you need to ulti every 10 seconds, zephyrs shield is rng if you live or not if explosives are present.

 Nekros has a spook ability which has max number of enemies affected so you are forced to use high STR builds if you want use that reliably to protect yourself, and his ulti spawns distractions that can die to thin air when fighting against corpus units.

Meanwhile Nidus and Inaros are HP and regen gods, with high damage scaling well into lvl 100+ high armor values + stuns and healing abilities, octavia can turn invisible and has Large AoE dmg and a lure to take away enemy fire, titania has CC for days and a way to reduce her hitbox 1/10 of the original size + free fly.

The problem isn't when and what one shots you, its the fact that DE Gives new frames better armor and skills so they are more end game viable from the launch so they don't need to rework them, and when they do ''rework'' frame half the time they botch it up, Nekros rework achieved 2 things, 1 less button pressing 2 better functionality to one of the worst ults ingame which was nice but it didn't do anything to help him to be lifted from the ''only used by 1% players outside of loot runs'' 

So yeah sorry for all this rant, my point is that DE is reworking frames, by simply looking at their used data, i mean nova has one of the best ults in game, but people don't play her for her Teleports or other abilities, she could also use a rework but she ain't getting none because her usage rates are high, frost is the same thing, hes used almost 99% for his number 3 and nothing else, frost got a rework, which is the same as with nekros, neat features, but didn't do anything to fix him so he would be picked for something else than snowglobe.

And yes i am aware there are people who play these frames outside of ulti spam and frost on defense but that is a minority of what most of the people use those frames for.

So in short, many of the older frames need complete overhauls not simple reworks which make the frames abilities to work bit better in synergy ( and making the community cry about them apparently)

 

But i will say that it would be hard just to rehaul 50% of the games frames like that, so what DE can do is to at least start bringing the survivability of older frame on par with the never ones so they just might be used a tad bit more when they don't start fail at pre sortie levels. 

Man this was too long of a response...

[o.0-]

I would also take the time to craft separate Health types for Warframes, so new Armor, Shields and base Health, with the idea being that Warframes are so exotic compared to the Grineer, Corpus and even Corrupted, that they have their own alloy blends that respond differently when damaged.

What I was then thinking is that Warframes could have no weaknesses or resistances to damage types. So get hit by a Supra, it would not deal the 50% extra damage to Armor/Health on hit, as it does now, for example (as we currently have Ferrite), or for example a Sobek able to deal 50% extra Impact damage on Shields.

Then with this setup, could certainly reevaluate and adjust Armor values on Warframes, as that also works with how Damage Reduction is calculated.

 

[Eirshy]

On 1/27/2018 at 3:13 PM, Flustershy said:

[...] Titania [...] have over 100 armor.

Titania has 65 armor.

[(PSN)AtomicEyekon]

Im Personally I'm in love with 700 armor from valkyr we're not going to discuss her Nerf to Hysteria this is not the place for it. Side note though kind of pointless tho I don't use her after that incident.

[Eljureo]

The real issue is getting one shotted in the first place.

All scaling is borked, anything over 200-300 and every frame that gets hit is oneshotted.

Result is we play in a way to defeat getting shot in the first place. Pretty much your frame has some kind immunity or it is not viable for endgame.

Even ice chroma with epic armor levels feels fragile at 200.

The answer is not to treat the symptom with stacking more armor on all frames. That just pushes the problem from lvl 60 to 80.

[Kayll]

Meanwhile my poor Trinity Prime is sitting in the back with a mere 15 armor,hoping a Hyekka didn't sneak behind her. 

[Flustershy]

On 30.1.2018 at 3:03 AM, TheBlueJelly said:

Titania has 65 armor.

If you are going to quote me, do so in full sentences and not in chopped up pieces, i will now quote myself properly,  

Inaros,nidus,octavia, harrow, gara, and khora have over 100 armor, the only frame from past 2 years that doesn't have 100 armor is Titania

So like i said titania was an exception among these frames yes, also like i also said out of all 65 armor frames titania has the best survivability due to her CC abilities, lure, and a way to reduce her hitbox to 1/10 of the original size.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Flustershy

[Flustershy]

On 30.1.2018 at 1:23 PM, Kayll said:

Meanwhile my poor Trinity Prime is sitting in the back with a mere 15 armor,hoping a Hyekka didn't sneak behind her. 

I was originally planning on talking a bit about trinity, but as Steve said she is a so called ''generation 1'' frame, and when she was built she was the only frame with any sort of healing abilities, they will look into her at some point, but she at least has reliable abilities of keeping one alive that isn't intrusive and breaking the flow of the game so that's why i didn't really mention her in this post, but she indeed does roll with low armors and is mainly picked for energy vampire these days, since there are so many ways to heal now a days.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Flustershy

[Flustershy]

2 hours ago, Eljureo said:

The real issue is getting one shotted in the first place.

All scaling is borked, anything over 200-300 and every frame that gets hit is oneshotted.

Result is we play in a way to defeat getting shot in the first place. Pretty much your frame has some kind immunity or it is not viable for endgame.

Even ice chroma with epic armor levels feels fragile at 200.

The answer is not to treat the symptom with stacking more armor on all frames. That just pushes the problem from lvl 60 to 80.

The scaling is bad yes, but if you also need to look at it in the basic player perspective, i cant say this on behalf of anyone , but the highest level enemies i meet in everyday play are sortie enemies, so i don't think that balancing a frame for lvl 200-300 is a top priority since i can say (i could be wrong here) that most players do not play against lvl 200 foes in everyday play.

Also on the subject of chroma, i wouldn't be surprised if DE will ''take a look'' at him since he can pretty much 1 shot eidolon limbs (which is not DE wants with the eidolon combat btw)

Also on the subject on getting one shotted could at least be resolved into 2 or 3 shotted with shield gating, but DE doesn't like shields as we have seen trough trash tier ''shield mods'' like retribution.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

2 hours ago, Kayll said:

Meanwhile my poor Trinity Prime is sitting in the back with a mere 15 armor,hoping a Hyekka didn't sneak behind her. 

 

51 minutes ago, Flustershy said:

I was originally planning on talking a bit about trinity, but as Steve said she is a so called ''generation 1'' frame, and when she was built she was the only frame with any sort of healing abilities, they will look into her at some point, but she at least has reliable ways of keeping one alive that isn't intrusive and breaking the flow of the game so that's why i didn't really mention her in this post, but she indeed does roll with low armors and is mainly picked for energy vampire these days, since there are so many ways to heal now a days.

You might want to consider some frame aren't using Armor as damage reduction/ defense mechanic.

 

Trinity blessing will do 50% damage reduction at 100% strength, equal to 300 armor

A Trinity with link activated will have 75% damage reduction, that is equivalent to 900 armor
Blessing on Link will add a further 12.5% (50% of remaining 25%)

That is overall 87.5% damage reduction, that would roughly be in the range of 1600 armor.
 

Now the base armor on Trinity is 15, because you won't be using an Armor mod on Trinity

As she is also capable of healing HP and Shield, not to mention the damage reduction
will also apply to shield.

You have Energy Vampire to fund your own defense mechanism, so keeping Link and Blessing buff active 
for the whole duration of the mission is easy.

That out-perform Valkyr with Armor mod.

The only danger is nulifiers which is a danger to everyone
using buff as defense.

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Ada_Wong_SG

[Eirshy]

3 hours ago, Flustershy said:

So like i said titania was an exception among these frames yes, also like i also said out of all 65 armor frames titania has the best survivability due to her CC abilities, lure, and a way to reduce her hitbox to 1/10 of the original size.

And yes i could have phrased it better...

Only reason I even bothered posting was because a skim read (since the direction you were going was predictable) saw a factual error. You shouldn't ever claim one thing then walk it back immediately after in the same sentence. Proofread your posts, jesus.

 

The CC is slow cast (1s for Spellbind and Tribute, 1.3s for Lantern) and highly dependent on power range (which is generally dumped in Razorwing), the size shrink is also somewhere between 1/3 and 1/5, not 1/10. Amusingly, the wiki says 1/2.

What makes her survivable is that she can stay farther away from the battlefield, Razorwing has a passive +50% evasion (the actual mechanical implementation of the smaller hitbox, since AI weapon spread is dependent on target), and Dust's 50% acc penalty aura.

XCOM point blank miss memes are what keeps her alive.

Edited January 30, 2018 by TheBlueJelly

[Kayll]

@Ada_Wong_SG
Sorry,my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously I was just joking.(mostly)
Trinity's armor is only a problem if people are forcing you to use EV, that's why I just don't play it anymore.
 

[Sean.bdfc]

10 hours ago, Flustershy said:

If you are going to quote me, do so in full sentences and not in chopped up pieces, i will now quote myself properly,  

 

So like i said titania was an exception among these frames yes, also like i also said out of all 65 armor frames titania has the best survivability due to her CC abilities, lure, and a way to reduce her hitbox to 1/10 of the original size.

And yes i could have phrased it better...

Your original post actually claims that Titania has over 100 armor, and in your next breath over she does not. You should edit the awkwardness of how that part reads.

I don't know what the point is for raising the base armor of older and fragile frames. The only effect it will have is raising the bottom line survivability for some of the frames you highlighted, and that's it. I'm going to admit that armor standardization is a nice thing to have, but it's more important for DE on a design level to allow fragile frames to have abilities or augments that effectively mitigate incoming damage for themselves and the team. The only frame in the list you highlighted that deserves a buff would be Banshee against ospreys, which cannot be knocked back from Sound Quake.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

4 hours ago, Kayll said:

@Ada_Wong_SG
Sorry,my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously I was just joking.(mostly)
Trinity's armor is only a problem if people are forcing you to use EV, that's why I just don't play it anymore.
 

Actually EV build is the worst build to be in, your damage reduction mechanism is totally trashed.
You will certainly need Vampire Leech for the overshield since energy overflow is too common, 
And constantly spamming blessing to heal up.

But with recent update and energizing dash, I rather throw a Trinity spectre that auto EV the whole time 
effectively 2 trinity on the squad will make energy nearly endless.

 

Edited January 31, 2018 by Ada_Wong_SG

[Biddion]

On 1/31/2018 at 8:15 AM, Kayll said:

@Ada_Wong_SG
Sorry,my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously I was just joking.(mostly)
Trinity's armor is only a problem if people are forcing you to use EV, that's why I just don't play it anymore.
 

I never understood the need for low duration EV outside of raids. EV still works. All the energy is distributed when the enemy is killed. It's range, even at 100% is decent. I prefer to have all my abilities usable.

[Neightrix]

Increasing armor doesn't shift the defensive meta at all. Some enemies and traps like Corpus Tech, Corrupted Crewman, and Mutalist Moa puddles have a damage bonus against warframe health and ignore a percentage of their armor value. It would be better to remove these bonuses so that armor's damage reduction for warframes is consistent, and make slash and toxin damage over time statuses not bypass warframe shields. Capture targets are like this, so why not warframes? That would be a big step in making shields more legitimate to build for.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Neightrix