Why Chroma will never be tanky again: (UPDATED TO CONTAIN THE BEST BALANCING IDEAS IN THE FIRST POST)

[Zorah.Magdaros]

Just now, DeadlyCreation said:

have fun :D dont forget the estoc!

Uuuh nice, destreza my baby come to papa <3

[Walkampf]

vor 45 Minuten schrieb DeadlyCreation:

return it to the old formula or make chromas base armor around 800-1000. (<- there thats your number)

Took the time an ran the numbers through the clac,

so, 800 Armor.

+968 From Steelfiber

+Vexarmor at 200% strength (1848 *7 = 12936 Armor)

Damage reduction = Armor / (Armor + 300) = 12936 / ( 12936 + 300) = ~0,977 (This value is rounded down)

So we are looking at a Reduction of 97,7, before any CC, or other damage reducing effects.

So we are looking a ~32.173eHP.

Take for example my previous advise of using a melee weapon, the Vaykor Sydon, whuch has a 85% damage reduction,

then we are looking at ~214.486eHP, again, rounded down.

And this is only with Vitality, Steelfiber and 200% powerstrenght while using only Vexarmor, namely pressing 1 Button and then holding another for 25 seconds.

Oh, yeah, sound balanced to me.... O_o

Edited February 13, 2018 by Walkampf

[(PSN)Rasmus_ep88]

17 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Took the time an ran the numbers through the clac,

so, 800 Armor.

+968 From Steelfiber

+Vexarmor at 200% strength (1848 *7 = 12936 Armor)

Damage reduction = Armor / (Armor + 300) = 12936 / ( 12936 + 300) = ~0,977 (This value is rounded down)

So we are looking at a Reduction of 97,7, before any CC, or other damage reducing effects.

So we are looking a ~32.173eHP.

Take for example my previous advise of using a melee weapon, the Vaykor Sydon, whuch has a 85% damage reduction,

then we are looking at ~214.486eHP, again, rounded down.

And this is only with Vitality, Steelfiber and 200% powerstrenght while using only Vexarmor, namely pressing 1 Button and then holding another for 25 seconds.

Oh, yeah, sound balanced to me.... O_o

You are doing the math wrong. Vex armor does not multiply the bonus from steel fiber.

Chromas new eHP with 800 armor, max steel fiber and vitality and 200% power strength would be 16,2 K - with 1000 armor it is 20,5 k

 

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb Walkampf:

Took the time an ran the numbers through the clac,

so, 800 Armor.

+968 From Steelfiber

+Vexarmor at 200% strength (1848 *7 = 12936 Armor)

Damage reduction = Armor / (Armor + 300) = 12936 / ( 12936 + 300) = ~0,977 (This value is rounded down)

So we are looking at a Reduction of 97,7, before any CC, or other damage reducing effects.

So we are looking a ~32.173eHP.

Take for example my previous advise of using a melee weapon, the Vaykor Sydon, whuch has a 85% damage reduction,

then we are looking at ~214.486eHP, again, rounded down.

And this is only with Vitality, Steelfiber and 200% powerstrenght while using only Vexarmor, namely pressing 1 Button and then holding another for 25 seconds.

Oh, yeah, sound balanced to me.... O_o

dude before you try something get your facts together - u literally used the old formula.

new formula: 800*7+800*1,1=6480 armor

armor= 6480/(6480+300)= 0,956 -so round about 95% dmg reduction. aka 16,7k ehp

and with the current values:

350*7+1,1*7=2835 -> 7k ehp

armor= 0,90 - so 90% dmg reduction

ca. 10k EHP difference....

 

you literally argued all the time without even knowing the correct formula.. holy....

Edited February 13, 2018 by DeadlyCreation

[Walkampf]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb DeadlyCreation:

return it to the old formula or make chromas base armor around 800-1000. (<- there thats your number)

This is what you wanted, right?

I asked you, what do you want for Chroma to be functional.

This is what you said.

I did the math on what you said in order to show you, how incredible gluttonous you are!

This is why i quoted you.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Walkampf

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Walkampf:

This is what you wanted, right?

I asked you, what do you want for Chroma to be functional.

This is what you said.

I did the math on what you said in order to show you, how incredible gluttonous you are!

This is why i quoted you.

do you know the difference between "and" and "or"?

[(PSN)PhantomReapers]

This walk guy is a clown

[Dragazer]

1 hour ago, Walkampf said:

Took the time an ran the numbers through the clac,

so, 800 Armor.

+968 From Steelfiber

+Vexarmor at 200% strength (1848 *7 = 12936 Armor)

Damage reduction = Armor / (Armor + 300) = 12936 / ( 12936 + 300) = ~0,977 (This value is rounded down)

So we are looking at a Reduction of 97,7, before any CC, or other damage reducing effects.

So we are looking a ~32.173eHP.

Take for example my previous advise of using a melee weapon, the Vaykor Sydon, whuch has a 85% damage reduction,

then we are looking at ~214.486eHP, again, rounded down.

And this is only with Vitality, Steelfiber and 200% powerstrenght while using only Vexarmor, namely pressing 1 Button and then holding another for 25 seconds.

Oh, yeah, sound balanced to me.... O_o

Just LOL at you count blocking in ehp values when it is only limited to the front and it limits usage of your abilities and other weapons.

Just take your L and leave already man your arguments make no sense, and when someone proves it wrong you are just going to either ignore or insult them like you have been doing for past posts in this thread 

[IceColdHawk]

@DeadlyCreation Don't waste your time and energy on him man. If all he can do is avoid proofs and arguments while belittling and insulting you as well as telling you what you need to do for HIM, might as well let him stand in a corner (ignore) until he opens his eyes and gets real.

[Dragazer]

2 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Took the time an ran the numbers through the clac,

so, 800 Armor.

+968 From Steelfiber

+Vexarmor at 200% strength (1848 *7 = 12936 Armor)

Damage reduction = Armor / (Armor + 300) = 12936 / ( 12936 + 300) = ~0,977 (This value is rounded down)

So we are looking at a Reduction of 97,7, before any CC, or other damage reducing effects.

So we are looking a ~32.173eHP.

Take for example my previous advise of using a melee weapon, the Vaykor Sydon, whuch has a 85% damage reduction,

then we are looking at ~214.486eHP, again, rounded down.

And this is only with Vitality, Steelfiber and 200% powerstrenght while using only Vexarmor, namely pressing 1 Button and then holding another for 25 seconds.

Oh, yeah, sound balanced to me.... O_o

Yes and wukong has infinite ehp with just rage and pressing 1 button, your point?

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb IceColdHawk:

@DeadlyCreation Don't waste your time and energy on him man. If all he can do is avoid proofs and arguments while belittling and insulting you as well as telling you what you need to do for HIM, might as well let him stand in a corner (ignore) until he opens his eyes and gets real.

yeah i know but at the same time i dont want this threat to vanish. i want it to stay relevant so DE sees what impact these changes had. all are welcome to leave some suggestion and i can add them to the first post to summerise or collected ideas.

[(PSN)Rasmus_ep88]

My biggest issue with Chroma is the lack of synergy between the abilities and gameplay, ie spectral scream means you cant use weapons.

These are my thoughts on Chroma rework:

Passive: A new real passive with some benefit. Im not quite sure what, maybe an innate chance to resist status (25-40%)?

Ability 1: Elemental aligment. Tap to cycle between the 4 elements. Hold to cast, with same bonuses as current elemental ward. Make it a longer radius and duration compared to current elemental ward.

Ability 2: Vex armor. Well... what to say. Maybe make Scorn a separate damage reduction buff apllied before damage is mitigated by armor (damage * (1-vex) * (1-damage reduction from armor)). Could start at base 40/45% after 400 shield loss, and scale up to 80/90% with somewhere around 200% power strength.
Maybe allies should only receive 50% of the buff?
Fury I dont know, maybe buff the percentage a bit of the current version.

Ability 3: Spectral scream. Make it a cast and not a channel, with a bigger effect/power than the current version (which is useless at higher lvls). 

Ability 4: Effigy. Make the effigy able to follow you around. Not sure what else to change about it, maybe others have better idea.

I think the above would make Chroma more well rounded, and make using all 4 of his abilities fun and worth while.

Edited February 13, 2018 by (PS4)Rasmus_ep88

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Rasmus_ep88:

My biggest issue with Chroma is the lack of synergy between the abilities and gameplay, ie spectral scream means you cant use weapons.

These are my thoughts on Chroma rework:

Passive: A new real passive with some benefit. Im not quite sure what, maybe an innate chance to resist status (25-40%)?

Ability 1: Elemental aligment. Tap to cycle between the 4 elements. Hold to cast, with same bonuses as current elemental ward. Make it a longer radius and duration compared to current elemental ward.

Ability 2: Vex armor. Well... what to say. Maybe make Scorn a separate damage reduction buff apllied before damage is mitigated by armor (damage * (1-vex) * (1-damage reduction from armor)). Could start at base 40/45% after 400 shield loss, and scale up to 80/90% with somewhere around 200% power strength.
Maybe allies should only receive 50% of the buff?
Fury I dont know, maybe buff the percentage a bit of the current version.

Ability 3: Spectral scream. Make it a cast and not a channel, with a bigger effect/power than the current version (which is useless at higher lvls). 

Ability 4: Effigy. Make the effigy able to follow you around. Not sure what else to change about it, maybe others have better idea.

I think the above would make Chroma more well rounded, and make using all 4 of his abilities fun and worth while.

i like the idea of rotating through the elements. for effigy/vex armor: maybe vex armor buff chroma alone again (with a bit stronger buff than right now) but when effigy is casted it halves the buff (making it maybe similar to know) but creates a buffing aura around it for teammates. so you could place effigy on a defense spot and teammates could get the buff.

also an idea to move around freely. make it so after you run out the auras range the buffs decays slowly. so after a while you return the the aura and replenish it. ( similar to octavias buffs).

what do you think?

[(PSN)Rasmus_ep88]

19 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

i like the idea of rotating through the elements. for effigy/vex armor: maybe vex armor buff chroma alone again (with a bit stronger buff than right now) but when effigy is casted it halves the buff (making it maybe similar to know) but creates a buffing aura around it for teammates. so you could place effigy on a defense spot and teammates could get the buff.

also an idea to move around freely. make it so after you run out the auras range the buffs decays slowly. so after a while you return the the aura and replenish it. ( similar to octavias buffs).

what do you think?

Good idea, would also create more synergy between the abilities, ie. effigy spreading out Vex

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Rasmus_ep88:

Good idea, would also create more synergy between the abilities, ie. effigy spreading out Vex

also - i am thinking, if chromas vex armor stays the buffing ability. would could make him tanky again. since overall i like vexarmor but maybe using the 4 would help him further.

maybe his 4 could be a dmg reduction being something from fairy tales - where the dragon armor is being stronger the more blood it touches/foes were killed. maybe this could be a scaling dmg reduction that drains energy over time but the reduction increases the more enemies chroma slays. or maybe not base it of kills. maybe just hp he drains. like equinox. so if you kill an enemy with alot of hp his reduction would gain more than killing a lv1 moa

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Give.

me.

a.

number.

 

It's not strictly about a number. The type of mitigation plays a heavy role.

Nidus with 40k eHP could take more general abuse without using his CC than Chroma at 80k eHP could because of how Armor interacts with damage type modifiers. If Chroma happen to catch a Bleed proc the comparison was easily over but even then Puncture and Toxic damage will hurt an armor based frame far more than one who gets their mitigation from a buff such as Nidus', Trinity, Nekros or Mesa.

I made a rework idea on Vex earlier this week. In these examples I give Chroma a flat 50% DR as a Vex buff to Chroma in addition to the new armor formula that's shared. His actual eHP is ~50k which is less than pre-nerf Chroma but he will have more reliable durability over the old Chroma. Not to mention more Ward viability.

It also adds more active use of Vex rather than this boring press X every Y seconds crap DE did which doesn't fit his theme in the slightest.

Spectral Scream and Effigy are also in dire need of improvement but I figure what's the point if Chroma doesn't work well in the first place.

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

The reason they nerfed chroma is incredibly stupid...”we don’t want our teralysts one shotted.” Well DE clearly didn’t take the weapons into consideration. (using the same chroma build) I STILL one shot limbs with my lanka (has a riven). So DE you don’t want your eidolon insta gibbed? Give our old chroma back and make it so eidolons take finate damage or fix your scaling. They even said that the broken scaling wasn’t a problem UNTIL eidolons.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Mr.Snipersmiley

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb Xzorn:

 

It's not strictly about a number. The type of mitigation plays a heavy role.

Nidus with 40k eHP could take more general abuse without using his CC than Chroma at 80k eHP could because of how Armor interacts with damage type modifiers. If Chroma happen to catch a Bleed proc the comparison was easily over but even then Puncture and Toxic damage will hurt an armor based frame far more than one who gets their mitigation from a buff such as Nidus', Trinity, Nekros or Mesa.

I made a rework idea on Vex earlier this week. In these examples I give Chroma a flat 50% DR as a Vex buff to Chroma in addition to the new armor formula that's shared. His actual eHP is ~50k which is less than pre-nerf Chroma but he will have more reliable durability over the old Chroma. Not to mention more Ward viability.

It also adds more active use of Vex rather than this boring press X every Y seconds crap DE did which doesn't fit his theme in the slightest.

Spectral Scream and Effigy are also in dire need of improvement but I figure what's the point if Chroma doesn't work well in the first place.

another idea i got is to make chroma scale like octavia. remove the buff cap - ramove the recastability. as a result chroma could scale at higher levels but every ca.50 seconds his buff runs out and you have to be carefull not to be killed while you build up a new buff. just the same as octavia.

as a result chroma would not be stupidly overpower up to level 100 because they dmg enemies make are not high enough to get his buff going crazy like before the nerf. still if you go extreme endurance runs you can easily do it.

and since we all agree that chroma should change elements on the fly maybe a passive like this could work in favor of passive team protection: "chroma taunts enemies within a 20m radius"

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Mr.Snipersmiley:

The reason they nerfed chroma is incredibly stupid...”we don’t want our teralysts one shotted.” Well DE clearly didn’t take the weapons into consideration. (using the same chroma build) I STILL one shot limbs with my lanka (has a riven). So DE you don’t want your eidolon insta gibbed? Give our old chroma back and make it so eidolons take finate damage or fix your scaling. They even said that the broken scaling wasn’t a problem UNTIL eidolons.

yes and the dmg overkill that chroma provided was simply a bug. why not fix the bug and leave the old formula? the dmg would normalize itself but chroma would have kept his tankyness.

but anyway since chroma is screwed atm we can only hope that DE finally puts some thoughts into a rework and does no throw half baked ideas at our faces

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

DE needs to hire players who ACTUALLY play the game and know how it works, if DE did this they’d be able to get appropriate feedback and build off of that instead of people complaining about “not getting kills” or “It’s too boring” not to mention DE committed genocide to a small group of people at the removal of raids (Warframe Raid School Bus). I predict raids aren’t going to come back ever unless DE gets their S#&amp;&#036; together

[(PSN)Crixus044]

8 hours ago, Eljureo said:

What are you guys on about? My Chroma, ice element, regular tank build, strength, armor, duration, vitality is unkillable in regular content.

And I can now recast vex armor... 700% armor, how is that not tanky? Damage buff is still noticable and now permanent.

Then you're playing in low levels. Play to 60 min mark in Mot and tell me how tanky chroma is. Plus it's not how he performs in current content, it's how he stacks up to the others. I remember back in 2015 when level 40 was the highest content we played and a 1 hour survival to level 100 was an accomplishment. Then we got more powerful gear, so DE raised the levels to match. We're still getting more powerful gear, so the levels will soon match. We got 9899 levels of enemies that only few like myself have seen. So what works now will be garbage in the future if it doesn't compare to a standard. Considering that chroma is the weakest tank currently, i'd say this is enough evidence to show that he's below the standard.

 

8 hours ago, Walkampf said:

 

Stop weaseling around the answer.

Those examples only show, that there is sombody else who maybe, under specific conditions can take even more damage.

How much % damage reduction do you want him to have don't rely on others.

What % do you want?

Come on, big boy.

You were offended, when i called you a glutton. Proof me wrong, tell me what it takes for you to make Chroma tanky enough.

Proof me, that you don't think, that Chroma has to be the best, but tell me, where he has to be, to be funtional!

What i want is not a DR number. I want an armor mechanic. I need 230k EHp with my 324% PS build no arcanes included. Simply giving me that DR enough to get me to that EHp with the current mechanics will not help how it affects the builds or gameplay. The simplest and most obvious way to get back to that is just reverse the Scorn change. 

8 hours ago, Walkampf said:

Compared to Wukong, sure, wukong is more resilient, however, he cannot buff his damage as the same time.

Compared to Valkyr, sure, she can tun invincable, but looses access to any equpied weapon.

Compared to Rhino, sure, ignore that his energycosts are massivly higher when you have to recast Ironskin roughly every 7 sekonds, when under full fire, compared to Chromas 25 seconds.

Wukong has to effectively recast his ability. His staff and ability to create finishers kills the idea that he has no damage. In energy draining situations especially infested and magnetic enemies, he's paper.

You say that valkyr losing her weapons is a bad thing, yet you advertise Guardian Derision, which is eternal blocking with melee. It's contradictory. You can only pick heads or tails, you cannot pick both.

[Jigoogly]

For the love of all that is good DE please give chroma his tankiness back! Just revert it back to how it was where it scaled off mods. Fine with the damage nerf but holy crap hes now the wet noodle of tanks.

[UltraLYT]

11 hours ago, Eljureo said:

What are you guys on about? My Chroma, ice element, regular tank build, strength, armor, duration, vitality is unkillable in regular content.

And I can now recast vex armor... 700% armor, how is that not tanky? Damage buff is still noticable and now permanent.

What are you talking about?  My Wukong can survive all star chart missions, excluded sorties, without using any abilities.

[EinheriarJudith]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Then you're playing in low levels. Play to 60 min mark in Mot and tell me how tanky chroma is.

no. this i heavily disagree with. Nothing in the game should be balanced around a point when balanced is thrown out of the window due to broken scaling. go to 1hr on mot at your own risk but dont tell people that he should be able to do it when @1hr mark people are cheesing with stealth, perma or near perma CC to survive. chroma is relevant for all start chart still. DE still has the issue that they dont know what they want the game to be and endless is clear proof of this. they use the name endless but what it really is, is ENDURANCE.

Edited February 13, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[(PSN)Crixus044]

14 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

no. this i heavily disagree with. Nothing in the game should be balanced around a point when balanced is thrown out of the window due to broken scaling. go to 1hr on mot at your own risk but dont tell people that he should be able to do it when @1hr mark people are cheesing with stealth, perma or near perma CC to survive. chroma is relevant for all start chart still. DE still has the issue that they dont know what they want the game to be and endless is clear proof of this. they use the name endless but what it really is, is ENDURANCE.

I hate to break it to ya, but 1 hour is far from endurance. Now if i were to talk about how chroma is weak because my valkyr can tank level 1000s, then you have footing, but 1 hour in an Mot is merely level 140. This is the same as a t3 sortie without all the modifers, so it's actually easier. This tells me that you really are not familiar with these missions. Perma cc, stealth, etc. are not mandatory for those levels, only if you're trying to play casually believe me on that. Star chart is not what the game should be balanced on. I can give you a long lecture, but I'd rather something like stay in PM while this thread stays on topic.

Nidus, trinity, and even mesa cruise on these levels. Chroma would fall.

Edited February 13, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044