Atlas is bad

[StanleyStanson]

This post is kinda outdated despite being only a day old, it has a number of my salty first impressions that i admit were a bit rough and narrow minded, i wrote "An Apology (Sort Of)" to be a bit more open minded and up to date.

I've played with Atlas since about the time of his launch into the game, I've loved him even though he tended to struggle with higher level content, but nonetheless i was able to take him through 40 minutes of mot solo (post star-chart rework) without invisibility cheese. I loved to play atlas and hes my 3rd most played frame. That being said this new rubble mechanic sucks. Petrify is way too expensive, the health and armor gain (nerfed to 50 from 75?) is way too low, and the armor drain is way too fast. All in all its my least favorite mechanic, that coming from a guy with Limbo as his most played character and Equinox 4th. Now the small community of Atlas fans have mostly all proposed the same rework for Atlas, almost entirely consisting of in-game assets already available. synergies between his 1 (hereby called Land Slide) and his 2 (hereby called Tectonics), and his 1 Land Slide and his 4 (hereby called Rumblers), the options I'm going to propose do consist of more than that, but they will also cover them more in-depth.

1. Get rid of Rubble, its expensive to upkeep and underwhelming.

2. Synergize Land Slide and Tectonics. When you punch your rock wall, cause a shotgun blast that destroys the wall and deals damage based on the amount of health the wall had left (could potentially use a combination of the Drakgoon shot fx and the current rubble design).

3. Increase the knockdown power of his Tectonics rolling ball, simple as that.

4. Synergize Land Slide and Rumblers.  In Conclave Atlas has an augment for his 4 that allows him to wear his Rumblers as armor and absorb a set amount of damage (500). The synergy would be that if he were to punch one of his Rumblers (or Titanic Rumbler) you would wear them as armor, taking either a damage resistance based on their health, or their health as a kind of iron skin, to balance you could potentially force Atlas into a walking pace similar to Nyx's Assimilate augment (of course you could use the visual fx of Atlas's Conclave augment).

5. Bring Petrify back, or at least make it toggle again, i would personally like it to be an AOE around Atlas but i fear that might make it too powerful.

6. When combined, the walking speed decrease of Petrify and the walking speed decrease of the Rumbler armor, could either root atlas in place (maybe allowing him to move with landslide?) or make him move at a snails pace.

With this i believe it gives Atlas the options he needs, does he need to kill the group before him or steamroll (ba-dum tss) through them with his tectonics. Does he need to tank a lot of damage or keep up with his team?

Edit: I'm liking a lot of the comments I'm getting and just want to say that I'm not against the rubble mechanic, it would just need to be drastically improved with a higher armor cap, longer duration, and being easier to pick up, benefiting from at least the 3m player vac; and honestly i don't feel like its worth it.

Edit x2: Just so everyone knows, armor is just completely borked. Yes rubble gets up to 1500 bonus armor, but with a maxed Steel Fiber, that only equates to +14% damage reduction, that's not worth it to me especially for the price of Petrifys old utility.

Edit x3 (what are we going to do with all these edits?): i just figured out the main reason i dislike the current rework, it essentially turned atlas into Nidus. Nidus's biggest problem is that he has un-engaging gameplay focused on casting his 2, and then 1 until his 2 resets. the new gameplay of Atlas revolves around pressing 3, and then either killing everything with his 1 for the best effect, or by any other means. While i do like to play Nidus from time to time, its not good for Atlas; Nidus has low armor compared to Atlas so he benefits far more from the armor gained from having stacks than what Atlas gains, on top of said stacks being much easier to acquire and to maintain (don't walk inside of nullifier bubbles). The rubble mechanic promotes poor and unfun gameplay for a number of less rewards given to another frame that has the same issues.

Edited February 13, 2018 by StanleyStanson

[Ragnarok160]

have we had enough time yet to duduce if atlas is super bad or just regular bad again?

[StanleyStanson]

1 minute ago, Ragnarok160 said:

have we had enough time yet to duduce if atlas is super bad or just regular bad again?

i do think it will take a bit more time, but honestly i'm skeptical unless they substantially buff the entire rubble mechanic, from the buff, its duration, to the acquisition itself.

[Fishyflakes]

Yeah I agree on a bunch things.

1 is still the only thing you should be using; 3 costs too much energy, 2 is still useless, 4 is still useless.

To be more clear: why use any of his other abilities when his punch damage just wipes the floor with any enemy except Nox?

AND IT MAKES HIM INVINCIBLE WHILE USING IT????
WHY 75 energy CC WHY RUBBLE???

Edited February 11, 2018 by Fishyflakes

[ChatNinja]

How about this. The amount of rubble you get scales off of enemy health and armor when killed while petrified then to make his 1 scale better make it get a buff off how much rubble he has. Of course also make it so it doesn't drain as fast. Feel like these kind of changes are what he needs

[StanleyStanson]

1 minute ago, ChatNinja said:

How about this. The amount of rubble you get scales off of enemy health and armor when killed while petrified then to make his 1 scale better make it get a buff off how much rubble he has. Of course also make it so it doesn't drain as fast. Feel like these kind of changes are what he needs

considering how insane enemy armor scaling is (mostly grineer but meh) it just seems too much effort to save a poor mechanic.

[ChatNinja]

5 minutes ago, StanleyStanson said:

considering how insane enemy armor scaling is (mostly grineer but meh) it just seems too much effort to save a poor mechanic.

Why say something needs to be fixed then say its too much effort? I also love Atlas so I want him to be as end game viable as possible no matter the effort

[YUNoJump]

My main problems with him at the moment are 1. that the rubble has zero vacuum range, so you have to scurry around the floor picking it up directly, and 2. that Petrify costs 75 energy for a small-ish cone attack that might hit more than 5 enemies in very limited circumstances. These both feel like they're gonna be patched into line pretty soon though.

The other thing is that single-cast Petrify feels pretty clunky; I think that old Petrify (with added instant freeze) is probably still fine for his kit now. Yes its nonstop powerful stun output, but you move slower and can't defend yourself at range. 

[StanleyStanson]

1 minute ago, ChatNinja said:

Why say something needs to be fixed then say its too much effort? I also love Atlas so I want him to be as end game viable as possible no matter the effort

I never said rubble needs to be fixed, I said that it needed to be removed. Its the first bullet point in my post. I did reply in a comment about what would need to happen if they wanted to keep it but that wasn't the point of me making this post

[PakkiTheDog]

I only have 3 problems with Atlas in his current stage.

1. Energy consumption is very high. Even with 175% of efficiency i quickly run out of energy when i'm trying to upkeep the 1,5k armor buff. So basically energizing his 3rd ability with his first. Rage helps a bit tho. Other than that i love how petrify works now, the insane range and instant CC.

2. Even with an 1,5k armor increase he still isn't that tanky. I also have vitality and steel charge equipped. But ok, i can look past this one if:

3. The time before ruble armor reduction is to little. After 3 seconds the armor starts to decrease very fast. Maybe make it so the duration mods affects the degradation speed or time before degradation?

 

However i still wouldn't mind some changes or replacements for his 2nd and maybe even 4th ability.

Edited February 11, 2018 by PakkiTheDog

[xattuu]

atlas is 100% better now than he was before.  the Rubble mechanic is a bit wonky, ill admit, but how is it a nerf? its a new mechanic and he gets to keep his old passive. nothing with his kit was nerfed. they only made buffs.  and his new petrify is way better b/c you can instantly freeze everyone infront of you.  I did have to change my build a bit but overall petrify is hugely improved from being one of the slowest and most boring abilities in the game.:]

[StanleyStanson]

18 minutes ago, xattuu said:

atlas is 100% better now than he was before.  the Rubble mechanic is a bit wonky, ill admit, but how is it a nerf? its a new mechanic and he gets to keep his old passive. nothing with his kit was nerfed. they only made buffs.  and his new petrify is way better b/c you can instantly freeze everyone infront of you.  I did have to change my build a bit but overall petrify is hugely improved from being one of the slowest and most boring abilities in the game.:]

His petrify is totally different now and i don't think its for the best personally. Old petrify was a decent cc, certainly not the best by any standards, but it got the job done. New petrify is just too expensive for its short range and long cast time as well as the lackluster rubble mechanic just makes him un-fun to play. His synergies do nothing, his rock wall ball still does no damage, I've never had my rumblers actually die outside of nullifier bubbles. The rubble mechanic, if it were to stay for whatever reason, would need large boosts to its numbers to be anywhere close to effective.

Edit: its un-fun to play because its a constant losing battle to keep the stacks up, for little reward (about 14% damage resistance difference with a maxed steel fiber)

Edited February 12, 2018 by StanleyStanson

[Syln]

Rubble armor buff shouldn't decrease over time but only after a certain amount of damage has been taken.

I actually like the "new" petrify.

As for tectonics i always thought that its augment should be innate and the boulder the result of a synergize with landslide where damage = landslide damage + remaining tectonics health (or at least enhance the length and width of this so called "wall")

As for Rumbler ... i just don't like them, summoning two AI and assuming they'll do something more or less usefull isn't really what i want from my fourth skill, maybe add them a few script lines that make them lanslide and petrify when you do it

 

[StanleyStanson]

2 minutes ago, Syln said:

Rubble armor buff shouldn't decrease over time but only after a certain amount of damage has been taken.

I actually like the "new" petrify.

As for tectonics i always thought that its augment should be innate and the boulder the result of a synergize with landslide where damage = landslide damage + remaining tectonics health (or at least enhance the length and width of this so called "wall")

As for Rumbler ... i just don't like them, summoning two AI and assuming they'll do something more or less usefull isn't really what i want from my fourth skill, maybe add them a few script lines that make them lanslide and petrify when you do it

 

i like most of your ideas (obv we have differing opinions on petrify but thats fine), i always saw rumblers as just something else for the enemies to shoot at with their insane health and decent duration

[Nendos]

if the enemies are petrified and can not move and attack, then it does not need extra armor, there is no synergy with this idea.

[Kaiath64]

hace 4 minutos, Nendos dijo:

if the enemies are petrified and can not move and attack, then it does not need extra armor, there is no synergy with this idea.

Because you can't petrify an entire room full of enemies, some of them will be petrified and the others will attack... This synergy is a bit forced, i won't deny that, but there is a synergy.

[StanleyStanson]

9 minutes ago, Nendos said:

if the enemies are petrified and can not move and attack, then it does not need extra armor, there is no synergy with this idea.

if you run out of energy by trying to petrifying enemies, you have no extra armor because the stacks decay so quickly, no synergy with that idea either

[ThorienKELL]

Atlas has been just reworked, and pretty successfully I believe, so major changes in mechanics won't happen that soon. About your other points:

Get rid of Rubble - I would rather say tweak it up a bit. 1st thing - much slower decay or decay with damage received (essentially stoneskin)

Synergize Land Slide and Tectonics. - Punching wall for shotgun hit. Not a bad idea but bit complex and unless damage would scale from primary weapon mods would probably be too weak and would scale poorly. 

Synergize Land Slide and Rumblers. So stoneskin. Good idea, atlas is not squishy but it dies way too quickly for a big brute he is. So you choose, more HP or aggro minions. Yep, I can see that working. 

Bring Petrify back Dear God no. What have you been smoking man? New petrify is phenomenal. Old petrify was top contestant for worse skill in game. Natural talent, good range and "say cheese". Pacify enemies and smash them with fists. Quite fun and powerful combo. Only thing I would change - swap place of 2 and 3. 1/2 combo would felt much more natural. 

walking speed decrease - What a horrible idea :) No, no and again - no. You could be a bit slower while wearing rumblers I guess if you wanna "roleplay" it properly but no more then 10-15%. But I don't think there's need for that. 

Edited February 12, 2018 by ThorienKELL

[Mak_Gohae]

so what im getting here is that because you cant keep the buff at max all the time it sucks?

[StanleyStanson]

22 minutes ago, ThorienKELL said:

Atlas has been just reworked, and pretty successfully I believe, so major changes in mechanics won't happen that soon. About your other points:

Get rid of Rubble - I would rather say tweak it up a bit. st thing - slower decay or decay with damage received (essentially stoneskin)

 Synergize Land Slide and Tectonics. - Punching wall for shotgun hit. Not a bad idea but bit complex and unless damage would scale from primary weapon mods would probably be too weak and would scale poorly. 

Synergize Land Slide and Rumblers. So stoneskin. Good idea, atlas is not squishy but it dies way too quickly for a big brute he is. 

Bring Petrify back Dear God no. What have you been smoking man? New petrify is phenomenal. Old petrify was top contestant for worse skill in game. Natural talent, good range and "say cheese" 

walking speed decrease - What a horrible idea :) No, no and again - no. 

honestly i see where youre coming from on a lot of these points, but just my thought on them.

land slide + tectonics. - i dont see any real point to it scaling off of primary mods considering youre punching the wall, maybe a percentage of the punch strenth + (since x could get kinda crazy) remaining wall health

land slide + rumblers - it would give him an easier to maintain variation of rubble using already existing assets and much more effective

petrify - believe it or not it did have a use being a decent cc with a low energy cost, if your weapons werent dealing fantastic damage or you were just being demolished by damage from a small army huddled together you could force them all to "dance" and inevitably turn to stone, which you didnt have to do since there would be plenty of time to deal with them while stunned from the cast

the walk speed decrease is an option, its not something youre gonna use all the time but it would be your penalty for being almost unkillable while active.

and finally on to rubble, probably the best idea i could see for it is to turn into basically a collectible iron skin for atlas, have it decrease at a reasonable rate over time and more on taking damage, but negating actual damage to your health or shields, but obviously you wouldn't have both rubble and the rumbler armor as mechanics in the game at the same time

Edited February 12, 2018 by StanleyStanson

[StanleyStanson]

7 minutes ago, Mak_Gohae said:

so what im getting here is that because you cant keep the buff at max all the time it sucks?

not at all, its just its 1. too hard to keep up, 2. decreases too quickly and 3. it doesn't do enough. like in my edit x2, 1500 only gives +14% damage reduction compared to 0 rubble stacks assuming you have a full steel fiber

Edited February 12, 2018 by StanleyStanson

[WARLOCKE]

I hate to be the bringer of bad news but more often than not once a rework is live, it is live. Sometimes you see positive changes to the rework in the future but it is best to accept what we have now. DE does not have the man power to give every frame the re-work it needs. Atlas, being a low popularity frame like Hydroid will probably not see any significant tuning post rework. TIme would be better spend figuring out how to make the best of what we got. Some would say my attitude is defeatist or anti DE. But I find it simply to be realistic when taking into account what has happened before. Look at poor Hydroid now, sure he is better than his pre-work, but hes eternally tied to his puddle. Sadly I see the same with Atlas being tied to his rubble mechanic.

[trst]

I've had success with a rage+max efficiency/range build on him, Petrify to Landslide spam. But I've not taken him past around lv50 yet so I can't say much for that.

 

I am a bit disappointed with the rubble system though, there is almost zero feedback when you heal off of it (no sound/visual effects) and that they're not even affected by innate vacuum is annoying (plus they're the same color as the ground in most tile sets).

[Darkmoone1]

Only thing that sucks right now is the upkeep for Rubble. If it decayed slower and had a higher cap, I'd be all of it. Also not sure why Tectonics (Specifically the boulder) isn't being touched. Easily the weakest aspect of him.

Other than that, these changes for Atlas are putting him in the right direction. Just needs one last tweak or two.

[(XBOX)Nerf Gengu]

The way I see it, DE just finds frames that people seem to enjoy and are like, "to hell with that".