Uncounterable Scrambus: How DE "Balances" Our Overpowered Warframes

[TKDancer]

On 2/14/2018 at 8:02 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

competent enemy sometimes

an invisible aura that turns off powers isnt competence

[Marthrym]

6 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

Why I only took a small part? Because singling it out makes it so I can give a more focused response instead of posting the entire quote. Giving the same reaction, and then people easily misunderstanding what I'm reacting to. I mean to me that just seems like it would create less confusing and have been doing so on these forums for years. :/

In this case I was simply adding a small correction as shooting off the helmet is actually quite the unknown little fact.

You want a reaction on the rest?

My stance is simple. These units make a very specific 'boing' like sound with every pulse of their helmets. this sound cue is important as it warns you of this unit. Not once have I been surprised to suddenly see a scrambus as I KNOW its there.

Now it is up to the player to REACT to this. If you are in a tight spot get ready to dodge roll or take out your melee weapon (so you can block / channel block). both of these options have build in damage reduction that can easily save you in these situations. Not using those and blaming that on the unit that removed your defensive skill, is imo (sorry for the pun) unskillful play.

You didn't correct anything, or make anything clearer. Again, I specifically stated that whether you kill or neutralize the target, the premise remains the same : here the game offers no counterplay that doesn't strongarm players into situations where the one and only option is to expose yourself and shoot the damn thing while it and all its buddies do the same. Quote mining is a dangerous and disinginuous practice. You completely left out the part of my post that addressed your own before you even typed it. Why?

Whether the enemy emits a "boing" sound or not is irrelevant here. Partly because in the heat of battle the sheer sound overload tends to completely mute audio cues like this one, but more importantly because the issue is not about KNOWING that the enemy is here, but knowing it being there changes NOTHING to the situation, because the tile design has a tendency to leave the players with no other choice but to put themselves within the aura's AOE, and within enemy LoS and range. Now that doesn't mean that always happen of course, but when it does, player agency is removed. Our ability to make choices is reduced to not having any choice. That's the issue this type of mechanics represents. Challenge and difficulty don't matter here, because quite frankly in Warframe, they are non-existant (which is okay too), thus making any idea that "skill" will change the situation quite difficult to entertain. Knowledge of the mechanics does matter a lot more in my opinion. Unfortunately Warframe never challenged me, not my skill at least. These mechanics don't offer me that challenge. They don't make me think, or adapt my playstyle or approach of the situation. Or rather they only give me the same one, leaving me the same "choice" : expose yourself and shoot the thing because your other options are taken away from you entirely.

I think the problem here is that we're talking past one another. I talk about mechanics that offer no interesting counterplay and fail to challenge me, only removing my agency over my characters, environment and toolkit. You bring arguments that are irrelevant to me because they're not a part of the equation for me. They have no impact, no effect on the situation I'm talking about. "Git Gud" is not a thing in Warframe. It never was. Because it's a Power Fantasy that offers no effective challenge, no interesting or brain racking counterplay to the mechanics used to counter our Godlike powers. Because these mechanics remove the option to use these powers entirely, instead of altering them in interesting and challenging ways. That's pretty much all the devs have been doing so far, they remove tools from our toolkit because these tools are just so powerful they make the game trivial. That's lazy, that's a cop out. I completely understand that balancing a game like Warframe can be a nightmare. It tends to be with this type of game unfortunately. But removing player agency, taking away our fun and interesting toys instead of giving other interesting and fun toys to the enemy is, in my opinion, the worst way to go. And it's pretty much the devteam's MO since day one, although I do have to mention and applaud their recent tries to change that. Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of fun, and I get that not everyone wants challenge, I know I'm not really looking for it in Warframe. Again, I like the Power Fantasy DE has offered the playerbase so far. But removing gameplay options in the hope that players who enjoy a challenge will be satisfied seems really wrong to me, you know?

Edited February 16, 2018 by Marthrym

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

having to rely on sound to locate or be warned about a certain enemy is already bad design...especially in a fast paced game like warframe where the only challenge on low to mid lvl is to be first at extraction while finishing the missions objective and i dont see this as a bad part of the grind unless u want to remove the heavy grind aspect

if u have to grind in a game to get the good stuff then u should also be able to sweep through enemies easily 

i dont get why they wont make the aura as visible as the nullifier bubble

 

 

[AcceptYourDeath]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb Marthrym:

instead of giving other interesting and fun toys to the enemy

They`ve tried! 

Napalms..... people complain about firewalls

Scorpion/Ancient...... people complain about being grabbed

Knockdowns....people complain about being knocked down

Ghouls cold proc..... people complain about being slowed down and proc`d

Commander.....people complain about being teleported

etc. etc. etc.

Remember the idea for new eximus units with weakspots, everybody complaint.

According to some the maximum enemys AI would be allowed to do is being a Lancer or Charger. Name any other unit which does something and you find people moaning how they shouldn`t do it. 

Warframe players are far too much not used to fail conditions anymore. And that`s usally a cruical part for most games.

[Airwolfen]

13 minutes ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

They`ve tried! 

Napalms..... people complain about firewalls

Scorpion/Ancient...... people complain about being grabbed

Knockdowns....people complain about being knocked down

Ghouls cold proc..... people complain about being slowed down and proc`d

Commander.....people complain about being teleported

etc. etc. etc.

Remember the idea for new eximus units with weakspots, everybody complaint.

According to some the maximum enemys AI would be allowed to do is being a Lancer or Charger. Name any other unit which does something and you find people moaning how they shouldn`t do it. 

Warframe players are far too much not used to fail conditions anymore. And that`s usally a cruical part for most games.

Pretty much. We have so many options against every single one of them (even more now with operators).

I get the whole power fantasy thing of Warframe, I enjoy this as well. But at the same time I think threats are needed. Scrambus units simply are just that bit that you need to be prepared to face at any point of the mission. That to me is just as important as blowing through the rest of the units with my shrapnel leaf blower.

[minjisku]

Move around alot to have a good sense of what enemies are around and prioritize targets. You aren't posting about corrupted healers that prevent you from killing the trash mobs. Because you know to deal with them first, and know what it's effects are. Do the same with these corpus guys and you should be fine. 

To move is to live and to stand still is to die. 

[MJ12]

4 hours ago, AcceptYourDeath said:

They`ve tried! 

Napalms..... people complain about firewalls

Scorpion/Ancient...... people complain about being grabbed

Knockdowns....people complain about being knocked down

Ghouls cold proc..... people complain about being slowed down and proc`d

Commander.....people complain about being teleported

etc. etc. etc.

Remember the idea for new eximus units with weakspots, everybody complaint.

According to some the maximum enemys AI would be allowed to do is being a Lancer or Charger. Name any other unit which does something and you find people moaning how they shouldn`t do it. 

Warframe players are far too much not used to fail conditions anymore. And that`s usally a cruical part for most games.

Besides for napalms, who people complain about because their damage output is kind of ridiculous given their projectile speed and fire rate and how they don't have an instantaneously recognizable silhouette that is different from the other Grineer units (from a distance a Napalm looks very similar to a big Lancer), notice the common thread of every one of these?

If you answered "they take away control from the player, sometimes for multiple seconds, or deny the player the ability to use entire classes of moves in their toolkit" ding ding ding you have a winner.

Warframe players want to play Warframe. They want to play Warframe, rather than watching their Warframe slowly struggle to get off its butt or get stunlocked. They want to play Warframe, not a generic third person cover shooter where the only option you have is guns and you don't want to stick your head out because you die in a second if you're out in the open.

Agency removal, which is what knockdowns, Nullifiers, Commanders, and whatnot do, is generally bad design because you want players to be willing to expose themselves to risk and demonstrate skill mastery by good counterplay to enemy actions. There is no interesting counterplay to a Nullifier. You just shoot it until it dies, because the cost of doing anything else is so ridiculous (most of the time you are heavily reliant on your buffs for survival at high level missions) that there is no interesting calculation as to what tactic should be done. Charging into the nullifier bubble is suicide, so instead the only legitimate strategy is to stay away from the bubble and shoot the nullifier bubble or its drone until it collapses. There is no interesting counterplay to a Scrambus. There is no practical way to avoid it turning off your powers, what with its massive nullification radius and lack of visual indicator, and the only way to counter it is shooting it until it dies. There is no interesting counterplay to a Commander. They switch teleport you. You stop playing the game for 2 seconds. The only solution is to shoot it. Until it dies.

See the issue here?

Like, relatively simple attack patterns aren't actually a bad thing, especially when the alternatives are agency denial. People play games to have agency, to make decisions. If you can't avoid agency denial and end up only being able to wait it out, this is bad. Furthermore, a lot of units could be adjusted. Imagine, as a random example, if the Scorpion hook worked more like J3 Golem's pull did back in the day. Instead of a slow drag across the floor, you were quickly yanked into melee range. The Scorpion now plays the same cover denial role, but you spend all the time in control.

[chainchompguy3]

4 hours ago, minjisku said:

Move around alot to have a good sense of what enemies are around and prioritize targets. You aren't posting about corrupted healers that prevent you from killing the trash mobs. Because you know to deal with them first, and know what it's effects are. Do the same with these corpus guys and you should be fine. 

A fairly bad example.

Ancient Healers / Corrupted Ancients do not put you on a timer. You have all the time you would normally have to think about what you want to do, and how to react to the new "threat".

Scrambus/Comba, Switch-teleport Comanders, and other such nuisances, however, do not allow that. Once you notice their effect (the way most people seem to know of their presence), it's already too late.

Unless you were already running, you're not going to have time to go "Oh, look! A Scrambus! I better take some evasive action to better avoid his aura". You have already been nullified, and are almost guaranteed to die.

 

And, as others have said, there's also a difference in how you can deal with the 2.

Melee, abilities, guns, and miscellaneous damage sources all work against a corrupted ancient. As long as you focus it on the ancient, it'll work.

The same cannot be said for Scrambus/nullifiers. Melee means losing buffs, abilities are nullified. Shooting from a distance is the only option in many scenarios.

 

4 hours ago, minjisku said:

To move is to live and to stand still is to die. 

Then there is the issue that Standing still means an easier time aiming, which means more headshots, needed to take down the Bullet-sponges of the higher levels.

Movement is important. You aren't even wrong. But there are circumstances where running/flipping/jumping isn't completely viable.

[Marthrym]

On 2/16/2018 at 4:42 PM, AcceptYourDeath said:

They`ve tried! 

Napalms..... people complain about firewalls

Scorpion/Ancient...... people complain about being grabbed

Knockdowns....people complain about being knocked down

Ghouls cold proc..... people complain about being slowed down and proc`d

Commander.....people complain about being teleported

etc. etc. etc.

Remember the idea for new eximus units with weakspots, everybody complaint.

According to some the maximum enemys AI would be allowed to do is being a Lancer or Charger. Name any other unit which does something and you find people moaning how they shouldn`t do it. 

Warframe players are far too much not used to fail conditions anymore. And that`s usally a cruical part for most games.

Did they?

Napalms... AOE hits through cover. That's what's been bothering some players, that's pretty much it. You have to admit that it kinda sucks when the only way to avoid the AOE is to run away.

Scorpion/Ancient... hooks have a tendency to change trajectory mid-flight and hit players mid-bullet jump or even after they use abilities that conceal them, that's pretty much the only complaint I've seen about them. Oh also they remove player control over the frame for up to several seconds, some players don't like that. Some would argue that it's the punishment for getting hit, but I understand the frustration it may cause. Mosy players don't enjoy being robbed of their control over their character.

Knockdowns... pretty much all the complaints I've seen revolve around the fact that interrupting enemies when they "cast" knockdown attacks doesn't work. More specifically, the enemy does get interrupted and stunned, and yet the knockdown attack goes through the interruption, the wind-up still continuing. It's pretty obvious with Heavies/Bombards. Sure you can stay away or jump to avoid it, but interrutpions ought to work as well as far as I'm concerned. And again, robbing players of the control they have over their characters tends to be more frustrating than anything.

Ghouls cold proc... Haven't seen complaints about them actually. Must have missed that.

Haven't seen "everybody complaint" when weakspots were proposed for Eximus units. Thanks for reminding me of that though, I was wondering where this situation was. Sad to see it's apparently been scrapped.

"According to some". Can you point me to these "some"? Because I have never seen anyone ask for enemies to only be Lancers or Chargers personally.

I don't think the issue is failstates in Warframe, but rather that the issue is failstates implementation in Warframe. I also think most "Warframe players" probably don't play Warframe only. I know I don't. I play many games, many challenging games, because of the satisfaction I get from overcoming challenges. Which is why I say I don't feel that in Warframe. Because there is no challenge. A real challenge for me is something that forces me to use every tool at my disposal extensively, to plan and execute, to find and exploit weaknesses. In Warframe, this "challenge" mostly is taking away our power, because we have so much of it, without proposing any challenge in return, just more stuff to shoot. I wish I found it challenging, believe me. Unfortunately for me I don't. I guess I'm too used to games where tactical thinking and fine motor skill are consistently put to the test in order to progress. For me Warframe is closer to rock-paper-scissors, albeit with more elements to consider. Don't get me wrong the game is pretty damn good at it, and it's overall lots of fun, but all you need in Warframe to progress is the right mods and knowledge of the game's mechanics. I've been playing this game for 5 years now and I'm still here having tons of fun, but not because I'm hooked by the challenging gameplay. This game has many, many strong points, but challenge isn't one of them as far as I'm concerned.

[Birdframe_Prime]

It's interesting how a situation brought about, and re-iterated as several times as being brought about, by poor situational awareness, seems to so greatly revolve around why there aren't enough options to mod for or otherwise prevent the bad situation that's been brought about.

I'm just thinking aloud (or in text) here, but this really does come down to the fact that you've rushed into a sticky place and are upset that the game punished you for it.

When playing solo, use your ears, use common sense, the game does warn you what enemies are spawning if you pay attention, and it gives you so many ways to deal with those enemies that it's not even funny.

There are audio cues to the enemies, they talk all the time, the Comba and Scrambus enemies in particular make a very distinct electronic noise as they move and have different voice lines to the regular enemies. If you aren't rushing through the mission with your Mesa expecting to press 4 at the first groups you see, then you'll notice them every time.

Even then, approaching the room and having your powers knocked out at the 30m range gives you plenty of time to react to that, there is no enemy in the Corpus that, even alerted, can aim a weapon at a speeding Tenno fast enough that the player cannot Dive Roll (applying 75% damage reduction and countering any attempted knock-down or stagger effects) or evade in another direction, such as upwards with a Bullet Jump.

So, to me, the choice is simple; you either approach the game with a small modicum of expectation, such as 'around this corner could be a group of enemies with a Nullifier or Null Scrambus', or you actually practice the evasive movement available to you so that getting out of that situation is possible, even in a tight corridor full of enemies that turn off your power.

If you can't do either of those, then the simple answer is 'suck it up, everyone uses a Revive some time'.