The only challenge in Warframe is how fast you can cheese through missions. Why newbies leave

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

1 hour ago, theraot said:

So, you say the game is too easy, but it takes too long to get to the end-game

That is the core problem, yes.

I don't know the solution, but the balance doesn't feel right, right now. In my first 200 hours I was constantly thinking about this, every day on the verge of quitting. Actually, I restarted an MR13 character to cosplay a sniper, because I needed some challenge in the endless grind (I have 73% aim accuracy now, which is pretty hard to upheld).

I don't think many player stays if they don't have a strong inclination towards grinding. (And as I heard, Monster Hunter has a more challenging-engaging combat, so will Anthem, and that may shrink the Warframe playerbase.) So it's not just a personal issue I think, it's an issue with this possibly awesome game. 

As to your sour remark: A feedback is not productive if it doesn't mirror the feelings of the player as well. Anthem will be a serious problem for Warframe, I'm a good example for that. That's why I say such things, not to chat about Anthem. I would dare to say I represent the average Warframe player: who equally wants combat and grind. 

And to be real: DE is the developer, not me. I can see, experience the problem, can voice it the best I can, but DE needs to fix it. They have to come up with ideas, not me. Because it's such a core systematic issue, it's probable it can't even be fixed, I don't know. 

"Well, difficulty should not come from worse controls." - No, I'm saying that difficulty + stellar controls could make a stellar gameplay, and compared to that Warframe is meh. Mass Effect has similar complexity, but the combat is way better, arguably. I know it's a different kind of game, hold your horses people!, but the combat of Warframe could very well be more engaging nonetheless. 

My best experiences with the game are coming from sticky situations where I had to actually utilize close control parkour movements, in the Arena for example with way stronger enemies than me. In almost any other mission the real challenge is whether you have the gear and modding already, with which you can cheese.

Just think about how versatile and awesome the combat system is and how minimally we use it! Yeah Conclave is for that, but it's far removed from the progression and the combat is stripped down. Maybe one or two arena games on every planet would be neat. 

Edited February 17, 2018 by (PS4)Snypomaniac

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

49 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

No. You made something up. You lied. It remains a lie until you post a source.
As long as you don't post a source, your whole post is wrong and should be closed by mods.

It is common sense though. Here's one simple example: Go look at achievement ratings or trophies. 

On PS4, only 70% of people who played even got the Rank 2 with any Warframe achievement, and most trophies have below a 10% acquisition rate.

Logic dictates that the vast majority of people who have tried the game don't stick around. This is very common with free to play games.

If you want to get specific, we can probably prove various other statistics, like "how many people stick around that manage to get through at least The Second Dream?" Etc, but it's by no means a mystery most accounts have seen minimal playtime.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

After 500 hours I can say the single biggest flaw of the gameplay itself, is that mostly it's highly cheesable, and as such not challenging enough to not convert the whole game into a huge grindfest, with some fashionframe on top. 

By 500 hours you should have realized the game is a farming/collecting game.  People put thousands of hours in because they like to collect stuff while brainlessly and expediently killing hordes of enemies.  

 

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

12 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

By 500 hours you should have realized the game is a farming/collecting game.  People put thousands of hours in because they like to collect stuff while brainlessly and expediently killing hordes of enemies.  

 

Oh no you realize it after 50. 

[theraot]

hace 1 hora, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

2 thousand active users

That sounds more like the amount of people who watch the dev streams. Which is a fraction of the active players. Not everybody knows them, and there are those who do but streams are not at a convenient time for them.

hace 1 hora, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

Monster Hunter has a more challenging-engaging combat, so will Anthem

Well, it really hurts the player base, Warframe will adapt. DE is not likely to abandon or stop updating warframe.

hace 1 hora, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

As to your sour remark: A feedback is not productive if it doesn't mirror the feelings of the player as well.

Did I say that? No, I didn't. I consider feedback is productive when it has useful suggestions (productive: that produces something, it is not just complaining or ranting). And I made a point about the personality of the players, and that not every game is for everybody... however, it good for a game to have a balance of various player types. Sorry, if that got mixed up.

hace 1 hora, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

And to be real: DE is the developer, not me. I can see, experience the problem, can voice it the best I can, but DE needs to fix it. They have to come up with ideas, not me. Because it's such a core systematic issue, it's probable it can't even be fixed, I don't know. 

I dot know either.

I think, for the grind, some patience is needed. At least when crafting something that takes 48 hours. That is the nature of the beast. That is there, precisely to make sure you do not burn through the content too fast... because you end up with all done and nothing to do, then you leave. Perhaps Waframes ask you to be a bit more patient than you are. It is ok, if it is not for you, it is not for you.

Edit: it is also there to make you stay with your current gear a little longer. Because if you can just change to whatever gear - for example if you had all the warframes from the start - then only a fraction of people would take time to play with each one.

It is true that it is not our responsibility to come up with solutions, and that DE does not have to do what we say (and often don't do it).

Yet, I like to come up with ideas. And if by doing so I help to make a game I enjoy better, why not? Why are you posting here in the forums? For me, at least, if I do not like something, I do not consider it worth it to bother to give feedback. I need to like it enough to think it is worth to see it improve. So, I think you like Warframe despite the problems.

DE can take some suggestions, they listen, even if they do something completely different at the end. Warframe had in the past changes that were received very negatively. There were some instances of lot of players leaving the game. In fact, I stopped playing at least twice, and ended up coming back. They improve.

 

hace 1 hora, (PS4)Snypomaniac dijo:

My best experiences with the game are coming from sticky situations where I had to actually utilize close control parkour movements, in the Arena for example with way stronger enemies than me. In almost any other mission the real challenge is whether you have the gear and modding already, with which you can cheese.

Just think about how versatile and awesome the combat system is and how minimally we use it! Yeah Conclave is like that, but it's far removed from the progression and the combat is stripped down. Maybe one or two arena games in every planet would be neat. 

We have two Arenas: Sedna's Rathuum (Grineer) and Neptune's Index (Corpus). Having more Arenas for the same factions would be redundant, perhaps there is a way to make Arenas for Infested, Orokin and Sentient... I don't know.

Perhaps the long awaited and after years still upcoming rework of dark sectors can help scratch that itch.

---

I think there is a bit of sunk cost fallacy for old player here. After you have expended days farming, grinding, crafting, modding, and fashion framing...you do not want to lose your account in a puff. We humans appreciate what takes effort, and time is cheap shortcut for that.

Edited February 17, 2018 by theraot

[Kyotosora]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

2 mil registered / 2 thousand active users situation

Steam store -> Stats -> Warframe: 68,255 players playing right now.

Not sure where you ripped that 2k number from but it's way off, unless if you take the plat hungry masses who "watch" their twitch streams.

[theraot]

@Kyotosora and that is only steam, I for one, do not play on steam. Edit: I mean, I play on PC, but not on steam. There are also console players to consider.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2018 by theraot

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

On 2018. 02. 17. at 5:33 PM, Kyotosora said:

Steam store -> Stats -> Warframe: 68,255 players playing right now.

Not sure where you ripped that 2k number from but it's way off, unless if you take the plat hungry masses who "watch" their twitch streams.

Then it said 20k, yeah I thought so. Funny because I think it was Brozime's video, I can't find it. Probably not his if it's that off. Maybe another youtuber. 

Nevermind, I delete that remark. Though 2 mill / 70k still could make the argument... Dunno.

Edited February 19, 2018 by (PS4)Snypomaniac

[Kyotosora]

@theraot

Ah I completely forgot you can play off steam on pc! I wish we could also check the console stats, or even better just see it somewhere here how many are playing right now.

[Kyotosora]

@(PS4)Snypomaniac

That's completely understandable, I personally take anything said in youtube for example with caution unless if solid proof is stated and linked. And I didn't mean my comment as an snide stab at you at all, more in a way of showing how you can check steam's own user count.

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

8 minutes ago, Kyotosora said:

@(PS4)Snypomaniac

That's completely understandable, I personally take anything said in youtube for example with caution unless if solid proof is stated and linked. And I didn't mean my comment as an snide stab at you at all, more in a way of showing how you can check steam's own user count.

I don't have steam :)

It was correct actually, because last year it was around 20-30k on steam (30 as of october). So it may have been Brozime. :)

[Kyotosora]

@(PS4)Snypomaniac

Technically you don't have to own steam account to check it as you can view the steam's store etc in browser, but it's really annoying to say the least if you have never used it! And yes we were at those numbers during October of 2016 and again 2017, but after PoE came we hit +100k one point, now it has stayed at or near 60k mark most of the time now.

Here's also an nifty and compact site to view Warframe's player count in steam: http://steamcharts.com/app/230410

Edited February 17, 2018 by Kyotosora

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

1 hour ago, theraot said:

I think, for the grind, some patience is needed. At least when crafting something that takes 48 hours.

That is actually something I love about Warframe, the well-earned rewards, the delayed satisfaction. That system is magnificent. 

What I want is not the grindfest to disappear, at all. I would make the XP grind more grindy to be true. Grind is goood. 

And I can see the point that the cheesy gameplay can be good as well, sometimes after a long day of work it's relaxing to just do easy-cheesy warframe missions. The problem is, you have to grind too much this way if you want to progress. After a while easy-cheesy becomes annoyingly so. 

So: grind is good, but cheesy grind all the time is not so much.

A middle road would be I think, to make more content of the challenging type, with better rewards (multiplied with the added time), not just on higher MR levels. Arenas, index are not good, because the fun element is restricted with energy. 

There could be an option for public missions saying "Squad at approximately the same level". As you said it has drawbacks as well, but there is always a guy in public missions who AoEs the sh*t out of everything - and all the noobs are like his Kubrows picking up the loot... I was raging many times in my first hundred hours: "What's the freakin point...?"

But: that's not the solution as well, because that would slow down the grind. Right now the best strategy for noobs is to be such a Kubrow. Isn't it said? 

Edited February 17, 2018 by (PS4)Snypomaniac

[Misgenesis]

Game's easy and the forums are full of people pushing for changes that make it even easier. I wish i could go back at least 15 updates to remind myself why it was harder back then. Now abundant energy plays a part at least.

[UltraLYT]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

[snip]

You can basically run through every alert, every planet node without a single breeze of challenge. Except when you solo it, which is more tedious than challenging.

[snip]

I have over 2k hours, I have all frames and more than half of my weapons optimized, I think in fact you can solo through every planet node, even most sorties (yesterday I just solo'd Lephantis assassination with the superior elemental resistance modifier), without a single breeze of challenge, and a lot of times faster.

In this situation, solo is actually less hassle, e.g. no need to carry, avoid rude random people, etc. 

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

9 minutes ago, modalmojo said:

I have over 2k hours, I have all frames and more than half of my weapons optimized, I think in fact you can solo through every planet node, even most sorties (yesterday I just solo'd Lephantis assassination with the superior elemental resistance modifier), without a single breeze of challenge, and a lot of times faster.

In this situation, solo is actually less hassle, e.g. no need to carry, avoid rude random people, etc. 

Many times it's true. With Limbo you can cheese probably 2/3 of the missions. I can cc stasis many sortie missions solo. 

I like that the PoE bounties are slower, properly staged. (Though it takes 2x1,5 minutes to get in and get out, which is annoying dead time.) It reminds of ME:Andromeda planets, with the bases and patrols, even the combat a bit. Soloing / duoing PoE is actually very fun, because having 4 squadmates doesn't really fasten it: it has timers, you have to go to places etc. You can't cheese that much, because enemies come in waves, and you always have to deal with them, you can't ran pass them. 

Hm, actually, PoE has a pretty good well-staged combat now that I think about it. 

[UltraLYT]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Snypomaniac said:

Many times it's true. With Limbo you can cheese probably 2/3 of the missions. I can cc stasis many sortie missions solo. 

I like that the PoE bounties are slower, properly staged. (Though it takes 2x1,5 minutes to get in and get out, which is annoying dead time.) It reminds of ME:Andromeda planets, with the bases and patrols, even the combat a bit. Soloing / duoing PoE is actually very fun, because having 4 squadmates doesn't really fasten it: it has timers, you have to go to places etc. You can't cheese that much, because enemies come in waves, and you always have to deal with them, you can't ran pass them. 

Hm, actually, PoE has a pretty good well-staged combat now that I think about it. 

Right, with Limbo you can just stand there doing nothing (solo not to annoy others) in all sortie mobile defense, just change the size of his bubble for different factions and sometimes just take down the nullifer, that's it.

I agree PoE is pretty fun, and it is DE's focus now, so it should get better and better.

[LuinCeltchar]

If Warframe had bullet sponge enemies I'd have never bothered to download it. The game might need some actual matchmaking to group players of similar strength loadouts, but I don't want to spend twice as long playing the same missions.

[LuinCeltchar]

double post

Edited February 17, 2018 by LuinCeltchar

[BlackCoMerc]

7 hours ago, Raniu said:

The game's still in beta.

And yeah, the game is easy and offers hardly any challenge. No one's saying that 'the game is hard now'. Quite the opposite :P

No, the game is NOT still in Beta. 

They removed ALL indicators of Beta. From Steam. From their own website. From their EULA.

A year or more later, when they began seeing criticism from gaming media, they put the Beta claim back. But ONLY in their EULA. Nowhere on their own site does it claim Warframe is in Beta. Nowhere on the Steam Store page are you informed of this. And the game is NOT in Early Access. 

Sorry. You dont get to remove your Beta status, add a cash shop and then go BACK INTO Beta once you get hit with much deserved criticism.

[Andele3025]

There are tons of reasons why players who would actually play the game for more than a week quit, be it meh keybind options, screenshake which cant be turned off by turning off screenshake, FoV under 90, weird and inconsistent usage of RAM when it comes to PoE/cetus loading gates dying while loading resulting in endless stuck while other times it loads just fine in 5-20 seconds, tutorials and mechanics hidden in codex tabs you have no indication to actually check, numerous resource traps, up to recently death of pets, etc. But cheese/ability to overpower enemies that are not sortie or above by a few orders of magnitude (and stuff like e.g. non-existant pvp) art not one of em.

[(PSN)WhattamattaU]

alerts - get in get it done move on to the next one

planet missions - get in get it done move on

old quest - are we done yet

newer cinematic quests, nost being mostly if not all together solo - enjoy the story or blast through it (esp being on console we have most likely seen the qst already)

syndicate missions - get in, finish get out move on

sorties - cheese wins

 

for anything you want to take you time on run solo

for anything you need help with and just want it done run public

for everything else use recruiting chat      seems to be a foreign concept to to many players

if you do run public and plan on taking your time or loking to get something done.. ie simaris target, syndicate medalians etc... learn to use party chat and not the voice chat. many either have it turned off or are in a psn chat just so we dont have to listen to the adhd kids that shouldn't be playin the game anyway, so we wont hear you most likely. and even if you do you'll either be ignored or get help... most likely depending on the mission type... ignored

 

 

[LuckyCharm]

Okay so i have every frame and almost every mod at my disposal now along with a ton of formad weapons. I dont feel challenged. But i had a friend who started and quit because going through the star map got crazy hard without proper modding and no clue which elements were good to kill what. 

On one hand we've worked super hard on our collections to become powerful. On the other hand the content hasn't kept up. We gain more power and enemy difficulty barely increases. Later enemys dont gain new weapons or new tactics or new skills. They just do the same old thing they did in the beginning. This just leaves the gameplay rather one sided as we asscend to godhood while our challenge just disappears as we get stronger. First step to improving the challenge is to improve the ai. Second set is a round of nerfs to our energy regen etc but shhh try fix the ai first

[ikkabotz]

On 2/17/2018 at 6:39 AM, WhiteMarker said:

No. You made something up. You lied. It remains a lie until you post a source.
As long as you don't post a source, your whole post is wrong and should be closed by mods.

Getting really sick of this stuff, this isn't a murder trial or something. .people are far too obsessed with this "post facts or it doesn't exist" on forums lately. .it's not hard to understand a person's opinion on all this instead of just waiving their opinion with the easily found holes in their "argument". .personally I don't need an entire novella of facts and statistics to understand an opinion like OP's here and if I had issue with something it's not hard to search for it myself.

Yeah, maybe they make a stretch here and there. .so what. .if it was something vitally important to their point SURE, get some around it. Otherwise, quit using something implicit in somebody's opinion or finding some off shoot tangent  of irrelevant lack of facts and riding it out just to prove them "wrong".

@(*()$ nerds and their +4 stamina belts, "Trogdor landed on volcoc in millennia 256, not 253". So burned out with kids applying critical thinking 101 from their college course on the most basic stuff. OP is talking about how easy the game is ultimately, quit slowing things down over some minute oversight and see the bigger picture for hell's sake, getting tired of reading all this S#&$.

Edited February 19, 2018 by komoriblues

[(PSN)Snypomaniac]

Well, we could come up with a mission type, where cheesing is impossible, combat is engaging and challenging. Let's get productive!

Guidelines: 

- Combat is challenging not because of combat restrictions like in arenas or in conclave. The combat is fully utilized!

- Combat is challenging not simply because the enemies are tougher. Sorties are easily cheesable as well.

- Combat is challenging not because there is a gimmicky objective is added (like Defection or Hijack, uuhh).

- Possibly on PoE, because DE seems to be fixated on it. And the "open world" area gives place to a more versatile combat than corridors and rooms.

 

AI seems to be the key, but... to be true, other games have an easy task, because enemies can get behind cover. It's not that they have better AI. The problem of Conclave is that the opponents have the same AI and combat versatility, so the combat falls flat (for me). 

Warframe could utilize more serious barriers in this missions, which would trigger a more strategic Tenno approach. Nullifier and eximus bubbles need to be tougher (or: you have to kill their soldiers to get to them). Only in these missions of course. 

Enemy phantoms would be awesome! I remember when I opened the first bridges on planets, fighting the warframe phantoms, thinking "wow I will have to learn the parkour really well!!" It was an awesome prospect, and a relieve, that it's not just about endless grind, there is engaging smart jumpy combat as well. - And then I hit Radial Blind.

Warframe is an ever developing game right...? A live service? Why couldn't some DE programmers assume the role of the enemy AI, I mean check out how we play and try to cheese, and as a response come up with new strategies etc. next week? Not exactly making "fixes", but actually evolving the AI? I always thought this would be the most awesome thing in a game. - Okay that's a far fetched idea, haha. :)