[Poll] Universal Vacuum

[MGG0001]

The major of players seem to want universal vacuum. They find it more useful than what the other companions bring. DE should just buff the warframe ability to vacuum.  With universal vacuum players will feel that bringing other pets is not costing them pick ups. This game is more about personal choice than it is about difficulty. Universal vac supports personal choice.

If you don't like universal vac DE can add a toggle.

[(PSN)Lowk721]

2 hours ago, MGG0001 said:

With universal vacuum players will feel that bringing other pets is not costing them pick ups.

The toggle is the sentinels.

And are people really that reliant on vaccum? I've stopped using it for a while and the only difference I've noticed is it takes me 2-3 more seconds more of added movement.

[Hypernaut1]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

 

 

The toggle is the sentinels.

And are people really that reliant on vaccum? I've stopped using it for a while and the only difference I've noticed is it takes me 2-3 more seconds more of added movement.

not even. I can completely ignore drops and still come away with more than half of what vacuum users get. And i still never run out of resources.

i truly dont understand why people think its that important. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[TheRealDestian]

If 100% of my time spent playing Warframe was solo, sure, I wouldn't need vacuum at all because I'm creating 99% of all of the drops so odds are I know what they are and where they are.

But Warframe is a multiplayer game, and as such you can expect to frequently have teammates who charge ahead, AoEing the crap out of everything, leaving you with no idea when something important may have dropped somewhere along the way and it's simply hidden under a piece of geometry or something along those lines (it does happen). Plus, the "extra movement" to pick up items without vacuum puts you even further behind those teammates.

Really, most of the progression in this game is based around collecting drops. The item that makes it easier to more reliably collect drops is insanely valuable for that reason alone. Over time, the amount of items you're going to miss because you don't have vacuum is going to add up to substantial amount.

Furthermore, lack of universal vacuum, for me at least, means my kubrow will stay forever in stasis because I'm NEVER going to take it out over a sentinel, meaning I'm sure as hell not spending any plat on that pupper...

[(PSN)Lowk721]

5 hours ago, TheRealDestian said:

Furthermore, lack of universal vacuum, for me at least, means my kubrow will stay forever in stasis because I'm NEVER going to take it out over a sentinel, meaning I'm sure as hell not spending any plat on that pupper...

Now with vaccum or all of them have some sort of default fetch mode when no enemies around I could understand. They could make it like a midway between the warframe vac and the sentinel.

They keep the design choice of sentinel are still king of suck. while all the other pets can get some usage for those who just must have vac errwhere.

[CursedPriest]

Universal vaccum for every frame that can be turned off and on in option menu. In my eyes win/win situation.

[MGG0001]

21 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

not even. I can completely ignore drops and still come away with more than half of what vacuum users get. And i still never run out of resources.

i truly dont understand why people think its that important. 

If it isn't important to you, why do you care whether people have it or not? I don't understand why people are against a feature that will benefit everyone. Adding a toggle for players to turn it off and on would be the way to go.

DE would sell more stasis tank slots which benefits them.

13 hours ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

Now with vaccum or all of them have some sort of default fetch mode when no enemies around I could understand. They could make it like a midway between the warframe vac and the sentinel.

They keep the design choice of sentinel are still king of suck. while all the other pets can get some usage for those who just must have vac errwhere.

With univac DE could focus on giving each companion a more unique personality. Not lumping sentinels in a group, kubrows in a group, etc.

Companions could be more like a fashion accessory, where the player decides what benefits the pet brings to the game.

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by MGG0001
spelling

[Hypernaut1]

18 minutes ago, MGG0001 said:

 

 

 

If it isn't important to you, why do you care whether people have it or not? I don't understand why people are against a feature that will benefit everyone. Adding a toggle for players to turn it off and on would be the way to go.

DE would sell more stasis tank slots which benefits them.

im against the hyperbole of it being NEEDED. it won't hurt me if its added.

I'm also against the forums spreading misinformation to newbies, because i was there at one time and had the forums scare me away from trying Kubrows. Then i decided to make one anyway and realized 1. they aren't expensive to maintain, 2. my Huras was actually better for me in helping me solo the star chart

Edited February 22, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[PrivateRiem]

Warframes already have a free 3 meter vacuum.

[TheRealDestian]

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

im against the hyperbole of it being NEEDED. it won't hurt me if its added.

Well, nothing is "needed" in this game, which is actually the beauty of it.

The key reason I find the way vacuum was implemented to be strange is that vacuum is asking the player to make a tactical decision (trading off more reliable resource acquisition) but in doing so never knowing the consequences of that tradeoff.

You could be missing blueprints and mods (especially when another player is charging ahead and AoEing everything) and you'll never know. However, unlike the tradeoff of utility and damage that comes with choosing between a pet or sentinel, this is not a quantifiable decision: the end of each mission doesn't feature a list of all of the loot on the ground that you missed or anything like that, so the tradeoff is not at all apparent.

It's normal when balancing a game for players to 100% know how their decisions will affect them because they can test out the results for themselves. In this case, although they can technically measure the aggregate differences in their rate of resource gain with a ton of math and time, there's no feedback mechanic to inform them when they just finished a mission and walked past an item they would've very much liked to collect, had they known it was there.

Again, it's just an odd thing to balance around, especially when everything else is directly quantifiable...

[Hypernaut1]

Just now, TheRealDestian said:

Well, nothing is "needed" in this game, which is actually the beauty of it.

The key reason I find the way vacuum was implemented to be strange is that vacuum is asking the player to make a tactical decision (trading off more reliable resource acquisition) but in doing so never knowing the consequences of that tradeoff.

You could be missing blueprints and mods (especially when another player is charging ahead and AoEing everything) and you'll never know. However, unlike the tradeoff of utility and damage that comes with choosing between a pet or sentinel, this is not a quantifiable decision: the end of each mission doesn't feature a list of all of the loot on the ground that you missed or anything like that, so the tradeoff is not at all apparent.

It's normal when balancing a game for players to 100% know how their decisions will affect them because they can test out the results for themselves. In this case, although they can technically measure the aggregate differences in their rate of resource gain with a ton of math and time, there's no feedback mechanic to inform them when they just finished a mission and walked past an item they would've very much liked to collect, had they known it was there.

Again, it's just an odd thing to balance around, especially when everything else is directly quantifiable...

Do you consider opening every locker and breaking every container a necessity? There's tons of loot you miss in those too.

Tell me... What are these blueprints and mods I could be missing? Most of them have shining beacons, that I could easily find. Anything valuable is rare, so you can't claim it's constantly interrupting gameplay to grab a rare mod. If I'm hunting for a mod, then yes, I'll use vacuum. But that's rare in Warframe. It's situational. Warframe isn't like Diablo. Drops become trivial fast. It's always the same mods.

[TheRealDestian]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Do you consider opening every locker and breaking every container a necessity? There's tons of loot you miss in those too.

Tell me... What are these blueprints and mods I could be missing? Most of them have shining beacons, that I could easily find. Anything valuable is rare, so you can't claim it's constantly interrupting gameplay to grab a rare mod. If I'm hunting for a mod, then yes, I'll use vacuum. But that's rare in Warframe. It's situational. Warframe isn't like Diablo. Drops become trivial fast. It's always the same mods.

1. Enemies, as a rule, drop the best loot.

2. I've seen mods fall off of catwalks and onto places where I pick them up with vacuum but wouldn't have otherwise. I've also been pleasantly surprised when I picked up mods I didn't even know where there.

Again, it's a strange thing to balance around because it cannot be quantified, unlike every other choice which has a tangible tradeoff.

It's also utility that has the least affect on combat of any mod in the game that I've yet seen. Every other mod offers an immediate and tangible benefit that helps you either do more damage, carry more ammo, survive more damage, etc. Vacuum's only "combat utility" is not having to move a bit of extra distance to pick up items which, if you're smart and don't worry about picking up items until you're not in danger, doesn't directly affect combat at all.

I mean, I've only played for ~60 hours now, but I've not seen a mod with any less influence on combat than vacuum...

Edited February 23, 2018 by TheRealDestian

[(PSN)Lowk721]

7 hours ago, MGG0001 said:

With univac DE could focus on giving each companion a more unique personality. Not lumping sentinels in a group, kubrows in a group, etc.

Companions could be more like a fashion accessory, where the player decides what benefits the pet brings to the game.

3

What you suggesting is taking away uniqueness from one class. As well as getting rid of intentional designs and lore elements. It's like the equivalent of asking why not let any frame use any four powers and reduce the frames to skins. Or wanting weapons looks to just be skins and have everything capable of doing what another thing does.

Companions aren't fashion accessories. They are specific weapons for certain jobs just like mods or weapons. And just like those things they want you to choose what's best for a certain job.

There's asking for a creator to add or improve and then there's asking the creator to forget whatever design choice they were making or made even after they already compromised and make things the way you want. 

17 hours ago, CursedPriest said:

Universal vaccum for every frame that can be turned off and on in option menu. In my eyes win/win situation.

People keep suggesting this like anybody, given the choice, would turn off a bonus with no negative repercussions. All you'd end up is the opposite of threads like this with people complaining how it's an unneeded addition and a waste of resources and time that could've been spent elsewhere doing (insert whatever long-awaited content of other more wanted fix here). Or something like that. I'd expect the words like entitled, easy mode, noob, maybe a few vets would be included somewhere. Someone is always going to not like the changes or lack of changes made and complain.

And regarding repercussions.There's likely to be some. Warframe doesn't just change and leave everything else alone. Maybe sentinels get a buff to better compete with pets and warframes that now have one of the things that made them more desirable. Based on history, it's highly likely, something would get nerfed because let's face it; nerfs are an inevitability of wide changes. Especially if you're introducing the exact same sized vacuum on not just the warframe but the pets that will travel away from you to where the resources are dropping.  

2 hours ago, TheRealDestian said:

1. Enemies, as a rule, drop the best loot.

2. I've seen mods fall off of catwalks and onto places where I pick them up with vacuum but wouldn't have otherwise. I've also been pleasantly surprised when I picked up mods I didn't even know where there.

I'd tell you that you're wrong but every time I get the good stuff from lockers it's like I've found a glitch and the matrix and the game decides it wants to crash. 

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by (PS4)Lowk721

[Borg1611]

It should be universal on the Warframe of at least the existing sentinel sized vacuum if not larger (not the useless unnoticeable crap they threw in silently). Not an exilus mod and certainly not a regular mod. Not an aura. Just universal baseline feature.

A lot of games with looting now have an AoE looting effect because players don't enjoy wasting their time cleaning up the floors after they kill stuff. That's not interesting or enjoyable. The sound and pop-up alert when we pick up something rare is where we get the actual "oh I got something useful" response, not from walking over it. I would never want to go back in time and play WoW without AoE loot and that has a lot fewer things to pick up (unless you were aoeing an instance or something). If Marvel Heroes hadn't died, I wouldn't want to get rid of their loot vacuum feature (granted a very different kind of system that converted unwanted items into pet XP, but still an AoE looting effect). As much as I hate D3 design in general, one good thing about greater rifts was that all the loot dropped in one spot at the very end so you didn't have to pick things up as you went. They also had AoE gem looting and automatic gold pickup. 

In a game like Path of Exile, you have to manually pick up everything and manage your inventory. That makes more sense in that game because the individual items you're picking up result in different kinds of currency when you vendor them, or you may want different things for crafting purposes. Most crap is left on the ground and it would be nice if we could just auto vacuum it up, convert it to currency and have it deposited in our stash rather than ignoring it (and using loot filters so we never see it)... but they like to do things the old fashioned way. Oh well, they're not space ninjas with advanced technology. There's a time and a place for picky looting, none of the reasons you'd want that exist in Warframe. We just kill stuff and see what we got at the end of the mission or in a pop-up in-mission if it was special. There's no reason to interrupt the flow of the game or combat to make us go pick stuff up. It just doesn't add anything of value to the game and never has and never will. 

People claiming it's a crutch or that there's not that big of a difference in gameplay are also out of their minds. I would have quit this game a long time ago if I didn't have vacuum. I've leveled non-sentinel pets. The difference is massive and extremely noticeable. Manual no-vacuum looting of resources or ammo or mods is terrible and a waste of time. Both looting and ammo management are terrible in this game without vacuum. If you have loot radar you can see all the things on the ground that you are missing without vacuum. Granted each individual thing is often low value on its own, but it all adds up over time.

While I also find points about orbs to be ridiculous 99% of the time, if leaving energy orbs on the ground is really that important to people, add some options as to what you vacuum up and what you don't.

I'd also never want to have to put a vacuum mod on a kavat. They are already out of mod space for the things they already have. 

TLDR: Warframe baseline univac of at least 12m >>>>>>>>>>>> all pet mods > sentinel only

[Biddion]

Good things come to those who wait. The ones who want universal vacuum just want everything handed to them. I rarely used sentinels in the 2 years I have played, and there are very few resources I absolutely had to farm for. The problem isn't the lack of universal vacuum. The problem most people have with resources it that they stick to a handful of nodes to level quickly, missing out on other resources from planets they do not visit often. I do not support universal vacuum.

[Kayll]

22 minutes ago, Biddion said:

Good things come to those who wait. The ones who want universal vacuum just want everything handed to them. I rarely used sentinels in the 2 years I have played, and there are very few resources I absolutely had to farm for. The problem isn't the lack of universal vacuum. The problem most people have with resources it that they stick to a handful of nodes to level quickly, missing out on other resources from planets they do not visit often. I do not support universal vacuum.

I wouldn't say univac people want everything handed to them, they probably want to play the game Warframe and not item pickup simulator.
There's really no reason not to have it, running around picking up your resources is pointless busywork.

Also what kind of reason is that? Univac isn't going to give them Ceres resources when they are on Pluto..

Edited February 23, 2018 by Kayll

[(PSN)Lowk721]

3 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

A lot of games with looting now have an AoE looting effect because players don't enjoy wasting their time cleaning up the floors after they kill stuff.

And in some games theey occasionally make it as an obtainable upgrade via item or ability. Especially when it comes to something over a wide area. In Warframe that would be Sentinels. There's even a trope about it
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerUpMagnet

2 hours ago, Kayll said:

I wouldn't say univac people want everything handed to them, they probably want to play the game Warframe and not item pickup simulator.
There's really no reason not to have it, running around picking up your resources is pointless busywork.

You don't have to. That's why they included something that allows you to vacuum things. And then compromised twice giving it to all the sentinels and a small one to Warframes. I could say the same of other games where they make me waste points or time to get that orb or ring or whatever collector so I don't miss that one thing just dangling a few feet away from me.

 

 

 

Your arguments are about something already in the game. That's accessible. That also does additional stuff. 
And I stress the warning. This is warframe. Where every buff there is a nerfing and vice versa. Even for the small stuff. It could be something minor or incidentally something worse or nothing at all. All I'm saying is, It happens when DE tries to fix things. People rarely take that into account when going I want this or I don't want that or that's no fun. Remember how people complained about Ember anti-funess before they tweaked her abilities.

Think of compromises instead of going I don't like this I want this and only this. Especially when one of the developers actually outright explained why he wanted it a certain way and made it so. 

[Ethorin]

here's an idea, split the Companion Slot, make a Sentinel slot and a Pet slot and then everyone is happy, all the people who insist Univac is a terrible idea still don't have Univac, all the people who want to be able to use pets at least some times(raises hand) but also really feel like vacuum makes the entire game better(raises hand) can have vacuum AND pet(which is the whole point for me) and all the people who just want univac are in the same place as they always will be because DE really really REALLY doesn't want univac.

[TheRealDestian]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said:

And regarding repercussions.There's likely to be some. Warframe doesn't just change and leave everything else alone. Maybe sentinels get a buff to better compete with pets and warframes that now have one of the things that made them more desirable. Based on history, it's highly likely, something would get nerfed because let's face it; nerfs are an inevitability of wide changes. Especially if you're introducing the exact same sized vacuum on not just the warframe but the pets that will travel away from you to where the resources are dropping.

Thing is, vacuum is a mod that asks players to spend points meant for combat on a feature that's purely for convenience. If vacuum had some passive effect on combat as well, it'd be a different story (like enemies hit by items being pulled to you take damage or something), but it doesn't.

AFAIK, vacuum is the only quality of life mod in the game which is why it's such an outlier and one that most players feel should be a default option from the start.

If vacuum had been a baseline feature from the beginning of the game, no one would bat an eye. AoE looting (especially in a game like this) is considered standard. Hell, if you miss a loot item in Destiny 2 and you leave the level, the game MAILS it to you, FFS. Vacuum is still not the hand-holding that people seem to think.

If vacuum wasn't a mod, no one would think to turn it into a mod any more than they would the ability to see objective markers, see your teammates through walls or their current HP/shield, or timers on objectives.

Again, it's the only mod in the game (AFAIK) that asks players to spend points meant for combat on convenience instead.

Either make vacuum a baseline feature or add dozens of convenience mods to the game to be consistent.

Edited February 23, 2018 by TheRealDestian

[vvhorus]

Change the Vacuum mod from "Sentinels" to "Companions." Problem solved...

[FashionFrame]

The constant back and forth on vacuum is honestly getting pretty annoying, but that's just my opinion. But there's this magical thing called "Play style" where people play the game the way THEY want. Want something more for universal vacuum? Make it an option. There, now people that whine about it can choose if they want it or not. Done. End of story.

[Ethorin]

1 hour ago, TheRealDestian said:

AFAIK, vacuum is the only quality of life mod in the game which is why it's such an outlier and one that most players feel should be a default option from the start.

there's actually a WHOLE BUNCH of QoL mods, there's ones that zoom you in more, ones that zoom you in less, ones that increase aim glide/wall latch time, one that ups time on hacking, etc.

 

Other than Vacuum the only ones that get used are fire rate/reload speed mods which are iffy on the QoL/Buff line. Some people occasionally use zoom mods on Snipers but you won't find any actual builds being showed with them on.

[TheRealDestian]

1 hour ago, Ethorin said:

there's actually a WHOLE BUNCH of QoL mods, there's ones that zoom you in more, ones that zoom you in less, ones that increase aim glide/wall latch time, one that ups time on hacking, etc.

 

Other than Vacuum the only ones that get used are fire rate/reload speed mods which are iffy on the QoL/Buff line. Some people occasionally use zoom mods on Snipers but you won't find any actual builds being showed with them on.

Those aren't QoL mods because they have a direct impact on actual combat (or if they are, EVERY mod is a QoL mod). I'm referring exclusively to mods that don't in some way influence your potency in combat, either by making you deal more damage, carry more ammo, take less damage, etc.

Among that list, I can only find vacuum and loot radar. Everything else makes us more effective in combat in some way, shape, or form. Picking up loot or knowing where loot is don't affect my ability to kill or survive, yet I must spend points that could instead be dedicated to combat potency for these conveniences.

That's why I feel loot-related mods like these should either be universally applied or they should add more QoL mods to balance it out. The current ratio of QoL to combat potency mods is INSANELY lopsided in favor of combat. If QoL is going to be so much of a balancing factor that we need to trade away combat potency to acquire it, they should expand QoL's mod list in general.

Edited February 23, 2018 by TheRealDestian

[(XBOX)mickeyjuiceman]

On 2/22/2018 at 11:14 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

i truly dont understand why people think its that important. 

I truly don't believe this statement at all.

[TheRealDestian]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)mickeyjuiceman said:

I truly don't believe this statement at all.

Yeah, all vacuum does is save players from having to go a few steps out of their way to pick up loot, which isn't at all challenging or engaging, just annoying.

"Annoying" isn't one of the verbs game designers are all about using when it comes to crafting their experiences...