Riven Mod Capacity

[FifthWrath]

With all these recent and massive weapon upgrades/rework , isn't it time to increase riven mod capacity? I myself want a riven or two for every weapon i own, and i mean all weapons literally.

Please consider Increasing Riven mod capacity, or at least make an option to make a riven Account Bound and wont be tradable if you guys (DE) wont increase it anymore than 90 slots.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

haha they could scale the plat cost of additional slots... 91-93 cost 60p, 94-96 90p, and since they don't like linear scaling, 97-99 180p, 100-102 360p....up to ONE MEEELLION plat for that 500th slot.

 

 

13 minutes ago, FifthWrath said:

Account Bound and wont be tradable

what is this to achieve - remove the temptation to buy them from others?

[Kalvorax]

the reason they CANT make it higher right now is due to lack of server space...rivens take up a rather large amount of data due to all their rng.

[BiancaRoughfin]

They might in some future update increase the limit above 90 but then, again additional slots will have to be purchased.

14 minutes ago, FifthWrath said:

Please consider Increasing Riven mod capacity, or at least make an option to make a riven Account Bound and wont be tradable if you guys (DE) wont increase it anymore than 90 slots.

You know this would ruin the Riven market right?

[Urabask]

2 minutes ago, Kalvorax said:

the reason they CANT make it higher right now is due to lack of server space...rivens take up a rather large amount of data due to all their rng.

Why on Earth would an item with two to four random stats take up a significant amount of server space?  Other MMOs seem to be able to handle this just fine so DE would've had to make a real mess to achieve that.

[Kalvorax]

Just now, Urabask said:

Why on Earth would an item with two to four random stats take up a significant amount of server space?  Other MMOs seem to be able to handle this just fine so DE would've had to make a real mess to achieve that.

its more due to HOW rivens are than anything...we have a rather large amount of weapons....that can have a giant number of combinations of the 3-4 slots....databases are not simple things to manage...particularly with all the data that warframe has to manage PER account.

[(XBOX)ultimategamerjr]

20 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

You know this would ruin the Riven market right?

The riven market is broken anyways, I would be fine with it.

 

But, I still don't think they should be untradable, they should just have set values to remove some RNG. This would also free up a lot of server space.

[theraot]

hace 34 minutos, Kalvorax dijo:

the reason they CANT make it higher right now is due to lack of server space...rivens take up a rather large amount of data due to all their rng.

That was their argument. And I have to agree that there must be some limit, because limitless is just a lie. And I also agree that they have to put a price on slots and that...

However, let us compare 1 Riven with 1 Weapon slot.

How much additional information does DE have to store per Weapon slot?

Well, first and foremost, which weapon it is you have there. That is also true for the Riven, they have to store for what weapon it is.

Second, they need to store what mods the Weapon has (in all of its 3 build configurations A, B and C). That is similar to how you have to store stats a Riven.

And finally, they have to store the cosmetic configurations (colors, skin, accessories). There is no counterpart on the Riven.

---
 

Alright, that is a superficial argument. Let us see it in more detail.

The Weapon does not store the Mod data, just a reference. You might argue that the system just stores what mod, of what level, and how many you have... however, the fact conflicts between weapons and sentinel weapons exists is evidence that they do store individual mods.

Ok, so, the weapon only have to say "mod ###" instead of storing the mod data. How many mods can one have? A two byte integer should be enough to count mods, but not duplicates... however - at my best estimations based on my account - 3 bytes should work. Yet, they probably use a regular 32 bits (4 bytes) integer.

Which weapon you have in the slot is probably another 4 bytes.

Thus, you have 4 bytes for the weapon. Plus the weapon has 8 mod slots, on 3 configurations, for a total of 24 mods, or 96 bytes. 4 bytes (weapon) + 96 bytes (mods) = 100 bytes total.

And then some due to cosmetic configurations.

---

Alright, now a Riven. A Riven has up to 4 stats (each stat is stat type and value), the roll count, and the current rank, the max rank, and the polarity.

Let us be generous and pretend each one stat value is 64 bits (a double, which is overkill), and that everything else is 32 bits.

We have: {4 stats * (stat type = 32 bits, value = 64 bits) + roll count = 32 bits + current rank = 32 bits + max rank = 32 bits + polarity = 32 bits} = 815 bits (64 bytes).

You can throw in, 16 bytes more for picking pictures if that is a thing. For a total of 80 bytes.

---

Sorry, a Weapon slot takes more storage capacity than Rivens.

And Riven slot cost 15 plat. While two Weapon slots cost 12 plat.

Riven slots are overpriced.

[Eljureo]

13 minutes ago, theraot said:

That was their argument. And I have to agree that there must be some limit, because limitless is just a lie. And I also agree that they have to put a price on slots and that...

However, let us compare 1 Riven with 1 Weapon slot.

How much additional information does DE have to store per Weapon slot?

Well, first and foremost, which weapon it is you have there. That is also true for the Riven, they have to store for what weapon it is.

Second, they need to store what mods the Weapon has (in all of its 3 build configurations A, B and C). That is similar to how you have to store stats a Riven.

And finally, they have to store the cosmetic configurations (colors, skin, accessories). There is no counterpart on the Riven.

---
 

Alright, that is a superficial argument. Let us see it in more detail.

The Weapon does not store the Mod data, just a reference. You might argue that the system just stores what mod, of what level, and how many you have... however, the fact conflicts between weapons and sentinel weapons exists is evidence that they do store individual mods.

Ok, so, the weapon only have to say "mod ###" instead of storing the mod data. How many mods can one have? A two byte integer should be enough to count mods, but not duplicates... however - at my best estimations based on my account - 3 bytes should work. Yet, they probably use a regular 32 bits (4 bytes) integer.

Which weapon you have in the slot is probably another 4 bytes.

Thus, you have 4 bytes for the weapon. Plus the weapon has 8 mod slots, on 3 configurations, for a total of 24 mods, or 96 bytes. 4 bytes (weapon) + 96 bytes (mods) = 100 bytes total.

And then some due to cosmetic configurations.

---

Alright, now a Riven. A Riven has up to 4 stats (each stat is stat type and value), the roll count, and the current rank, the max rank, and the polarity.

Let us be generous and pretend each one stat value is 64 bits (a double, which is overkill), and that everything else is 32 bits.

We have: {4 stats * (stat type = 32 bits, value = 64 bits) + roll count = 32 bits + current rank = 32 bits + max rank = 32 bits + polarity = 32 bits} = 815 bits (64 bytes).

You can throw in, 16 bytes more for picking pictures if that is a thing. For a total of 80 bytes.

---

Sorry, a Weapon slot takes more storage capacity than Rivens.

And Riven slot cost 15 plat. While two Weapon slots cost 12 plat.

Riven slots are overpriced.

My man!

But hey, i wish there was a decent way to sell poor rivens.

I wish we had report how much space each player holds in DB and howmuch space a riven consumes. Maybe riven have a poor object design.

[theraot]

I do realize I might have overlook a few things.

The riven needs to store whatever or not is is veiled, and if it is veiled, we need to know for what weapon type it is, what is the challenge, and challenge progress (if that is a thing).

Those probably can be single bytes, but let us make each 4 bytes, cool? Ok, that brings the total to 100 bytes.

In fact, if the engine allows, I would use a single bit (or byte, if that is not possible) for veiled/unveiled, and then interpret the rest of the data differently based on that. Which would keep the total storage down.

Wanna throw in 8 bytes more to pick the name of the mod? I won't expect that to be a thing (as far as I can tell, the name is picked from the stat types), I am reaching here... 108 bytes.

I will remind the reader that 100 bytes for the weapon slot does not take into account the cosmetics. And even if the riven took slightly more than a weapon slot... it does not take more than two weapon slots.

Riven slots are overpriced.

[FAZZWARFRAME]

my guess (just a guess):

weapon slots are additional entries in the DB which they probably hashed out into multiple tables, as long as the indexing is done right the fetch should probably be speedy.  Rivens are stored as document orientated structures like JSON that lengthens the size of a record, the performance is inversely exponential to the length of a record it needs to parse.

[Eirshy]

The reason there's a slot limit has nothing to do with db storage. The reason is entirely because they sell more slots at 3 for 60p.
It's money for them to restrict it.

 

Also.... As someone who actually does DB management for a living... Schema probably looks like:

[inventoryID] INT , [playerID] INT --these two columns together are the PK; both reference other tables
, [weaponID] INT --references another table
, [polarityID] INT --references another table
, [challengeID] INT --references another table
, [challengeProgress] INT, isUnveiled BIT
, [mr] INT , [rank] INT
, [effect1Roll] DOUBLE , [effect1ID] INT --references another table
, [effect2Roll] DOUBLE , [effect2ID] INT --references another table
, [effect3Roll] DOUBLE , [effect3ID] INT --references another table
, [effect4Roll] DOUBLE , [effect4ID] INT --references another table

All together looking at 80 bytes per riven in the riven table, +16 bytes in a separate inventory table, +12-16 extra bytes in indexs on the inventory table, +8 extra bytes for the PK index, likely +4 more for an index on just playerID.
So 120-124 bytes per riven just in data.

Oh and those "roll" columns are not the percentage on the screen. They're the value you multiply with the rank, disposition, and effect multiplier to get what shows up on screen. Reason is so disposition and effect multipliers can be changed on the fly without having to touch the (obviously massive) rivens table.

You could drop a few things down to TINYINT or SMALLINT but there's a lot of processing that will just upscale those to full INT anyways, and they may end up stored as full INTs for alignment purposes anyways.

Edited February 23, 2018 by TheBlueJelly
missed one TINYINT, forgot index costs, dropped weaponType since ID needs unpacking anyways, added PID index

[theraot]

@TheBlueJelly You are assuming it is a relational database, that might not be the case.

For the record, I was not going for an optimal implementation, to play the argument that the storage is large.

[Eirshy]

17 minutes ago, theraot said:

@TheBlueJelly You are assuming it is a relational database, that might not be the case.

For the record, I was not going for an optimal implementation, to play the argument that the storage is large.

I have very little experience with non-relational dbs currently, but wouldn't those run into major scaleability problems from how the inventory system in this game works? Like, being able to have multiple copies of the same thing is a major pain in non-relational systems by my understanding. Like, the primary reason to go nosql is for access speed at the cost of space, and this is a game where a lot of the high-performance data can be cached on the client's machine and/or made near-instant to fetch via correctly-chosen indexen... so you'd be paying a penalty for a gain you don't really get to experience.

Edited February 23, 2018 by TheBlueJelly

[(PSN)creativedsign]

Well it will only benefit ppl who turn this game into ecommerce thing. I still didn't buy a single riven mod space, and have enough to cover all my fav weapons... And for Zenith and Pyrana double rivens. I dont think we need extra space. 

[theraot]

@TheBlueJelly Yes, a space for speed trade off is usually the case when going from relational to document-oriented.

I do no know what Warframe uses, and do not claim to know... they might as well be using a relational database.

I could argue that they might benefit from an hybrid solution, however, if they do or not is all speculation. The truth is that I do not know what they do.

[XeLLoOoOo]

more riven capacity would be better, 90 is too low for so much weapons. 

[XeLLoOoOo]

On 23.02.2018 at 8:33 PM, TheBlueJelly said:

The reason there's a slot limit has nothing to do with db storage. The reason is entirely because they sell more slots at 3 for 60p.
It's money for them to restrict it.

 

Also.... As someone who actually does DB management for a living... Schema probably looks like:

[inventoryID] INT , [playerID] INT --these two columns together are the PK; both reference other tables
, [weaponID] INT --references another table
, [polarityID] INT --references another table
, [challengeID] INT --references another table
, [challengeProgress] INT, isUnveiled BIT
, [mr] INT , [rank] INT
, [effect1Roll] DOUBLE , [effect1ID] INT --references another table
, [effect2Roll] DOUBLE , [effect2ID] INT --references another table
, [effect3Roll] DOUBLE , [effect3ID] INT --references another table
, [effect4Roll] DOUBLE , [effect4ID] INT --references another table

All together looking at 80 bytes per riven in the riven table, +16 bytes in a separate inventory table, +12-16 extra bytes in indexs on the inventory table, +8 extra bytes for the PK index, likely +4 more for an index on just playerID.
So 120-124 bytes per riven just in data.

Oh and those "roll" columns are not the percentage on the screen. They're the value you multiply with the rank, disposition, and effect multiplier to get what shows up on screen. Reason is so disposition and effect multipliers can be changed on the fly without having to touch the (obviously massive) rivens table.

You could drop a few things down to TINYINT or SMALLINT but there's a lot of processing that will just upscale those to full INT anyways, and they may end up stored as full INTs for alignment purposes anyways.

so why you are telling about dbs, how many bytes or bla bla bla. its not our problem, we dont want to create terminal or develope a game. We are players, we are telling our problem. We need more riven capacity. We have too many weapons, so i need so many riven capacity. Thanks for useless information.

[BrazilianJoe]

Need more riven capacity.

[Eirshy]

14 hours ago, XeLLoOoOo said:

so why you are telling about dbs, how many bytes or bla bla bla. its not our problem, we dont want to create terminal or develope a game. We are players, we are telling our problem. We need more riven capacity. We have too many weapons, so i need so many riven capacity. Thanks for useless information.

Someone mentioned memory cost being why it's restricted, I was merely providing an actual memory cost per riven explanation. Assuming they're stored in a relational style, It's about 2KB per 16 rivens. I also showed my work.

As for your problem, might I repeat the first sentence of that post you quoted but clearly didn't read?

Quote

The reason there's a slot limit has nothing to do with db storage. The reason is entirely because they sell more slots at 3 for 60p.
It's money for them to restrict it.

"If you want more riven slots, buy them. 3 for 60p" - DE, probably.

2-3 veiled rivens will get you the 60p you need to get 3 more slots. Alternatively, go fissure or vault fishing. Think a few Drift mods from Lua are still worth something, and if you can bag an Augur Secrets from a bounty 4, that's at around 60-80p last I checked. Oh and arcane hunting from the Eidolons can net you some decent plat, especially if an Energize drops. Another option would be to pick up Primed mods from Baro when he's around and then sell them a couple of months later.

Or, you can be the one to get your wallet out and help DE keep the lights on, instead of only helping to keep inflation down.

Edited February 26, 2018 by TheBlueJelly

[Skaleek]

On 2/22/2018 at 9:52 AM, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

haha they could scale the plat cost of additional slots... 91-93 cost 60p, 94-96 90p, and since they don't like linear scaling, 97-99 180p, 100-102 360p....up to ONE MEEELLION plat for that 500th slot.

Plz no.

[Mr.SpookSpook]

Also, how about REDUCING the PRICE of RIVEN MOD SLOTS?

I just got to the point when I had to dissolve some rivens to make space for new ones, as slots cost 60p /3 slots, which is an atrociously high price. It is a total ripoff. 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Mr.SpookSpook

[XeLLoOoOo]

On 26.02.2018 at 7:39 PM, TheBlueJelly said:

Someone mentioned memory cost being why it's restricted, I was merely providing an actual memory cost per riven explanation. Assuming they're stored in a relational style, It's about 2KB per 16 rivens. I also showed my work.

As for your problem, might I repeat the first sentence of that post you quoted but clearly didn't read?

"If you want more riven slots, buy them. 3 for 60p" - DE, probably.

2-3 veiled rivens will get you the 60p you need to get 3 more slots. Alternatively, go fissure or vault fishing. Think a few Drift mods from Lua are still worth something, and if you can bag an Augur Secrets from a bounty 4, that's at around 60-80p last I checked. Oh and arcane hunting from the Eidolons can net you some decent plat, especially if an Energize drops. Another option would be to pick up Primed mods from Baro when he's around and then sell them a couple of months later.

Or, you can be the one to get your wallet out and help DE keep the lights on, instead of only helping to keep inflation down.

Thanks for trading tips. Actually nice information for beginers!

I have got 90 riven slot capacity. So im talking about it. 90 slot capacity really isnt enough for me, and i think and i know from around me many people thinking same. This is our issue. 

Edited February 28, 2018 by XeLLoOoOo

[Ether-Prime]

On 2018-02-23 at 1:53 PM, (PS4)creativedsign said:

Well it will only benefit ppl who turn this game into ecommerce thing. I still didn't buy a single riven mod space, and have enough to cover all my fav weapons... And for Zenith and Pyrana double rivens. I dont think we need extra space. 

That's fine. Nobody is twisting your arm. Some of us would pay for more riven slots. I'm not a riven trader, but I use all 90 of my riven spots. Each riven is on a weapon on a saved build. Each build gets some use. I would certainly buy more if I could.

[(PSN)creativedsign]

1 hour ago, Ether-Prime said:

That's fine. Nobody is twisting your arm. Some of us would pay for more riven slots. I'm not a riven trader, but I use all 90 of my riven spots. Each riven is on a weapon on a saved build. Each build gets some use. I would certainly buy more if I could.

There is no way u use all 90 rivens or 90 different weapons. If u use all 90 riven slots - u r a WF trader. Its as simple as that.