So sick of trading chat, why can't we get an auction house?

[Kaminariss]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Semyazza1985 said:

scammer a person who should be banned form all traiding

Lol I am not a scammer. I have never sold anything overpriced. I merly checked how crippled is currently economy. I usually buy all the things from warframe.market. Trying to undermine a prices is simply a waste of time (because effort is bigger than the gain).

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Semyazza1985 said:

If you're a scammer don't assume others are would do the same.

Numerous people were trying to scam me by altering my price I put on warframe market. For example I posted Im selling [Fluctus stock] for 14p, then i get message:

/w blablabla Hi! I want to buy: Fluctus Stock for 10 platinum. (warframe.market)

This is what i call scamming. Always need to check what price I put before i do actuall trade because of that.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Semyazza1985 said:

You are literally want to close the "seller" market to the group which possess most assets? You are literally asking for UNDERCUTING/OVERPRICEING.

What are you talking about?! Dude. AH would only act as another distribution channel. It is NOT possible to undercut and overprice in proper implementation of AH. The only way to make price go down in AH, is to provide actual, steady supply of items. All by yourself. Which would be your loss anyways.

In simpler words, to make price goes down you would need to sell at least 3 Mirage Prime sets per day at price lower than the lowest that is currently there. What is the point of doing that anyway?

Problems you are describing now fits trade chat and warframe.market, not the real proper implementation of AH.

[(PSN)Semyazza1985]

8 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Lol I am not a scammer. I have never sold anything overpriced.

You push people to sell their goodies underprice? It's not a scamming then what it is? Lucky-buying? That's mean overprice selling will be Lucky-selling.

11 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

What are you talking about?! Dude. AH would only act as another distribution channel. It is NOT possible to undercut and overprice in proper implementation of AH. The only way to make price go down in AH, is to provide actual, steady supply of items. All by yourself. Which would be your loss anyways.

In simpler words, to make price goes down you would need to sell at least 3 Mirage Prime sets per day at price lower than the lowest that is currently there. What is the point of doing that anyway?

You know what is a "group of interest" ? ("group of interest means for me speculants")

I would need to sell at least 3 Mirage Prime sets per day at price lower than the lowest that is currently there. For one person as a individual it's pointless. But for a clan or two clans that means 1000 or 2000 players can block prices at some level for them is a piece of cake. You see the point now?

[Kaminariss]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Semyazza1985 said:

But for a clan or two clans that means 1000 or 2000 players can block prices at some level for them is a piece of cake. You see the point now?

Maybe you didn't read my posts because those were too far away but making "acutions" for prime parts would be pointless. Only rivens could actually be auctioned. Rest of the items would NEED to be "buy now".

Lets take example of Mirage Prime Set (i will call it MPS) which costs now around 60p. Market volume of 200 per day.
To even make a dent in prices you need to either SUPPLY 20 MPS or DEMAND 20 MPS per day. Which is roughly 10% of daily volume.

Now assuming you have 1000 of players trying to poke with 20 000 people market.

• If you decide to lower a price by 10p making it cost 50p. you need to collect ~50 sets (1/4 of daily volume) per day (that is quite big amount of work, even for 1000 players)
  Then you would need to actually supply those MPS for lower cost, by selling it to other players.
  This is your first loss, each MPS sold would have a loss of 5p for start because of tax.
  So a total of 15p net loss per MPS. And 5p net loss if your clan mate manages to buy it.
  As you cannot decline offers in AH there is no guarantee that you will get those sets back. Some random guy can be faster than your clan mates.
  Not to mention you both lose daily trade limit by doing so.
  So there is no gain in those kind of actions, only losses, and enormous ones. Both time and money.
• If you decide to raise a price by 10p making it cost 70p, you need to buy out every MPS that gets posted below 70p. Again, it will be probably around ~50 sets per day.
  That will cost you 3000-3450 platinum per day
  Now if you decide to resell it for 70p you will pay 7p in taxes. So quick calculations - only sets bought below 63p would make you any profit.
  Asuming the best possible option, you buy out for 60p, that will be a net gain of 3p per MPS
  Asuming you manage to sell them all for 70p (which won't happen) you will gain 150p per day
  For the amount of work and money invested its laughable profit.

It is not impossible, but it is also perfectly possible using TC or W.M. However once you shift the price of any item you will also shift the supply and demand curve. Meaning if you make things cheaper there will be more people willing to buy it. If you make things more expensive, the less people will be willing to buy it.

In either of those ways you will lose either time or money, but because time IS money, you will ultimately loose money.

And we get back to where we started. In the end, everything will be regulated by supply and demand curve.

[HC217]

No to AH, every time this comes up. Just no. there's a million examples of why AH is a flat-out bad idea, go read those other boards if you want. also, inb4 thread close

[Kaminariss]

18 minutes ago, HC217 said:

there's a million examples of why AH is a flat-out bad idea, go read those other boards if you want.

Yes there are few cases of which makes AH bad idea but economy is not a valid reason. Thats all am I saying this whole time.

[Loswaith]

13 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

Auction houses aren't some new innovation.  They've been around since the inception of mmos.  What you don't want to accept is that not having an auction house was one of "those restrictions".  One of the ways DE limited abuse.

MMOs have been around much longer than they have had Trading posts/Auction house systems.  Their predecessors, MUDs (Multi-user Dungeons) mostly didn't have them either.
Ultima Online was the first, it didnt have an auction house, Everquest was another early game that also didn't have one either, and used a chat system just like warframe does (even isolated to specific regions).  You know what? both added auction houses to the games many years after, because it meant people would play the game not sit around not playing the game (the entire point of the game is to play it).
 

Restrictions that stop people playing the game, are bad restrictions.  Just like immunity phases on bosses are bad because it stops the game-play and people just have to wait for that bit to pass.  It wasn't an intentional restriction at all (if it was DE wouldn't have bothered to add the filters, reducing that restriction), despite what you seem to think.

 

13 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

I've never had issues trading with the current system.

That is exactly like me saying "I never had issues getting Ivara or Equinox". It doesn't make Ivara or Equinox simple to get just because I got them easily, any more than you saying "you never had issues with trading" meaning there are no issues at all with trading, despite hearing daily of people having issues with trading.
It is not just about you or what you want, it is about evolving the game and making it better product on the whole (something DE hasn't yet failed to achieve).  

Edited March 2, 2018 by Loswaith

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

31 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

MMOs have been around much longer than they have had Trading posts/Auction house systems.  Their predecessors, MUDs (Multi-user Dungeons) mostly didn't have them either.
Ultima Online was the first, it didnt have an auction house, Everquest was another early game that also didn't have one either, and used a chat system just like warframe does (even isolated to specific regions).  You know what? both added auction houses to the games many years after, because it meant people would play the game not sit around not playing the game (the entire point of the game is to play it).
 

Restrictions that stop people playing the game, are bad restrictions. 

This! All this! Trading is a secondary feature of the game, not a primary! If I wanted to play a trading game, I would go and play a game that is meant for that! We play Warframe to shoot people, not waste our precious time trading!

[qscgg]

don't even need to be an auction house... just give us vendor system like other MMORPG. 

[TheRealDestian]

2 hours ago, HC217 said:

also, inb4 thread close

Thread has been open since Saturday and is on page 12 now. Dream on...

[--RV--Draconian]

7 часов назад, Loswaith сказал:

MMOs have been around much longer than they have had Trading posts/Auction house systems.  Their predecessors, MUDs (Multi-user Dungeons) mostly didn't have them either.
Ultima Online was the first, it didnt have an auction house, Everquest was another early game that also didn't have one either, and used a chat system just like warframe does (even isolated to specific regions).  You know what? both added auction houses to the games many years after, because it meant people would play the game not sit around not playing the game (the entire point of the game is to play it).
 

Restrictions that stop people playing the game, are bad restrictions.  Just like immunity phases on bosses are bad because it stops the game-play and people just have to wait for that bit to pass.  It wasn't an intentional restriction at all (if it was DE wouldn't have bothered to add the filters, reducing that restriction), despite what you seem to think.

One of the most sensible comments in this thread.

The amount of not playing happening because you just wait for people to respond to your WTS (or WTB) is staggering. You can't start a mission, because it might just take too long for you to complete it, and the person might not want to wait. So you just end up being a business runner, waiting for people to show up to buy your stuff. Some people definitely like it this aspect, but i think most don't.

[PatternistSlave]

9 hours ago, Loswaith said:

mostly didn't

So some did.  So they've been around since the inception of mmos like I said.

9 hours ago, Loswaith said:

because it meant people would play the game not sit around not playing the game

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/d3/topic/20042656713

Post 3.  "Because it ruined the game, hackers used it to generate money and many of us where using the auction house more than the game."

[Urabask]

11 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

I never said I am not guilty but with AH I just wouldn't been able to do it. Thats is the reason why humanity switched from markets in town square to auction websites like ebay. It makes trading more fair. Ripple effect is marginal and because there are thousands of other sellers there is literally no way to control market by few rich people.

If it comes to economy, dedicated AH is superior to trade chat/3rd party website in every possible way. Perhaps you have in mind some ret*rded implementation of AH you saw in other games? Because I am talking about AH similar to WoW. This is one of the best implementation I have ever seen:

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Formulas:Auction_House#Fees

https://www.networkworld.com/article/2207996/software/real-legal-issues-with-virtual-currencies.html

Since plat is made available on a pre-paid basis for later use (and they even have gift cards in retail stores) it's subject to federal and state laws concerning gift certificates.  This means that in some states you cannot charge fees related to using platinum.  

[Loswaith]

39 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

So some did.  So they've been around since the inception of mmos like I said.

Feel free to go ahead and name a few that did so, I used 'mostly did', simply because I never played every single one in existence.  Not one of those I did play had them.
You are also ignoring the fact that the very first MMOs didn't have them yet added them anyway.

 

39 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Post 3.  "Because it ruined the game, hackers used it to generate money and many of us where using the auction house more than the game."

So some random player posting on a forum is your "proof".  We can all likely find posts on the internet saying things that are contrary to actual proven facts as well.

Show an official post of Blizzard saying that and then it becomes more than just hearsay.   Try this official one instead

Edited March 2, 2018 by Loswaith

[PatternistSlave]

55 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

Feel free to go ahead and name a few that did so, I used 'mostly did', simply because I never played every single one in existence.  Not one of those I did play had them.
You are also ignoring the fact that the very first MMOs didn't have them yet added them anyway.

 

Been a while, but LORDS I think it was called?  At any rate you're splitting hairs here.  The very first mmos had them.  So they're not some new innovation.  Which was the point.

57 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

Show an official post of Blizzard saying that and then it becomes more than just hearsay.

"While buying epic loot in the auction houses might be more convenient, it doesn't feel anywhere near as heroic..."  Isn't saying that?

[Fallen_Echo]

9 hours ago, qscgg said:

don't even need to be an auction house... just give us vendor system like other MMORPG. 

You mean the ones where i put down a somekind of billboard or seller npc where i sell my stuff for a set price then i go on to do whatever i want to do?

That would be good but im more on the side of a trade chat update. Instead of spamming wtb and wts you could create your shop at a corpus npc and it would auto repeat itself on the trade chat for a small fee. If someone likes what they see they enter the shop and see a virtual place where everything is displayed for buying. You choose what you want and the next time the owner comes online he chooses to accept your offer or not.

[CandyManCriminal]

11 hours ago, qscgg said:

don't even need to be an auction house... just give us vendor system like other MMORPG. 

as long as i dont have to idle there like most of those vendor systems
the other problem is sure you could plop a shop at a relay, or maybe cetus, but its going to have limited exposure because of the occupancy cap 

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, CandyManCriminal said:

as long as i dont have to idle there like most of those vendor systems
the other problem is sure you could plop a shop at a relay, or maybe cetus, but its going to have limited exposure because of the occupancy cap 

Still better than having to spam messages in your ship for hours just to get a simple item.

[(PSN)Semyazza1985]

Situation A:

13 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Now assuming you have 1000 of players trying to poke with 20 000 people market.

• If you decide to lower a price by 10p making it cost 50p. you need to collect ~50 sets (1/4 of daily volume) per day (that is quite big amount of work, even for 1000 players)
  Then you would need to actually supply those MPS for lower cost, by selling it to other players.
  This is your first loss, each MPS sold would have a loss of 5p for start because of tax.
  So a total of 15p net loss per MPS. And 5p net loss if your clan mate manages to buy it.
  As you cannot decline offers in AH there is no guarantee that you will get those sets back. Some random guy can be faster than your clan mates.
  Not to mention you both lose daily trade limit by doing so.
  So there is no gain in those kind of actions, only losses, and enormous ones. Both time and money.
• If you decide to raise a price by 10p making it cost 70p, you need to buy out every MPS that gets posted below 70p. Again, it will be probably around ~50 sets per day.
  That will cost you 3000-3450 platinum per day
  Now if you decide to resell it for 70p you will pay 7p in taxes. So quick calculations - only sets bought below 63p would make you any profit.
  Asuming the best possible option, you buy out for 60p, that will be a net gain of 3p per MPS
  Asuming you manage to sell them all for 70p (which won't happen) you will gain 150p per day
  For the amount of work and money invested its laughable profit.

For the amount of work and money invested its laughable profit. 

Personally, I think you're right. Do you have 100 percent confidence that nobody will do it? - No. Someone may well think that his time, his efforts and the money spent by him will bring him future benefits. Go here:
http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-ethereum-ripple-cryptocurrency-prices-fall-on-january-16-2018-1?IR=T
You see, someone has made the effort to raise the price and he succeeded.
How it ended for the rest of the bitcoin "players". They lost 30% during the night.

Situation B

15 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

I do not even have [Mirage Prime Set] to sell, nobody can tell If I have it or not. In fact lets assume I just want to buy it. Other sellers will take a bait and will lower their prices. It works, I got few primes for lower price this way.

How does this differ from situation A? It's just that you think that your efforts and time spent on lowering the price have given you the desired goal - a lower purchase price. But are you sure? How many times have you said that you can value my time? Remember, someone will evaluate your time and behave like you from situation A, that it is a funny gain or maybe even a loss.

Everything depends on the point of view.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

15 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

In proper AH no players except seller and buyer could see transaction log.

How many times you said that everything should have "Buy now" button except rivens. 

You can literally flood the market with a constant rotation of 50 of the same items (sell - resell) in a closed group of people. Tell me how many combinations will be with 50 items and 1000 people. An external observer will only see the price, on the shopping list of the given item, their number and how quickly they disappear. The effect will be that an external observer (a real buyer) would require other sellers to reduce the price of the item. You say that our tax will save: you can calculate how much of this tax I will pay if MPS costs not 50 platinum but 10 platinum? (extremely low price - I exaggerated it just to make it easier for you to see it).

How the current TC is better than automated "buy now button" locked AH?

1. 2 minute cooldown in spaming even if 1000 players spam with "WTB MPS 10 plat" it's easy to fillter (maybe some improvent need but still works). AH wall is flooded with price tags.
2. If you want to convince THE MARKET that something should cost more or cost less, you have to repeat it to each individual. If you want to cheat someone, you have to devote your time and effort to each person individually. Self-protection of TC.
3. If you Spam WTB or WTS and don't respond. Do not think that you are affecting the market. You interact with the units. (See point 2). If you convince, for example, buyer or buyers, that XXXXXX should cost them 50 platinum (because you spam it) and that they should demand 50 plat from other sellers. They hit a wall called "Try to buy XXXXXX from him/Kaminariss" they will return to buy it from you after some time
4. AH put THE PRICE TAG on everthing. PRICE, which depends mostly (Kaminariss here I will agree with you) on the suply-demand curve. Do you know what TC has besides the price? This thing is called V A L U E. If you do not know the difference between price and value. Look here. If you are still trying to monetize the value to become a price - you are a soulless machine with no feelings. (You are just another Corpus machine to me!)

THE ENDING:

• I have especially exaggerated some things. To point out that something negative can exist in the Auction House.
• I have never said that the Auction House is 100% Evil Corp. You want to use price comparison sites, auction houses - please do it. But leave TC as it is. (Maybe small improvements).
• Stop to monetize the value. Value is not a price. How would you feel if I took your beloved dog and gave you another dog for the same price? After all, the price is correct? (Yes, once again, I am exaggerating something)
• No, I'm not trying to protect the market from people like Kaminariss. I try to protect the market from people like me - cold-blood-INTJ-personality-type-analysts.

 

CONCLUSION:

1. Support DE DEVS :)
2. Play WARFRAME.
3. Have fun.

 

 

Have a nice weekend :)

[CandyManCriminal]

12 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Still better than having to spam messages in your ship for hours just to get a simple item.

i'd rather not replace one problem with another
we need a solution with less problems

[Kaminariss]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Semyazza1985 said:

Do you have 100 percent confidence that nobody will do it?

Its not that they DO it, they would need to be DOING it for like a month. You cant change market price permanently if you just do it once or twice.

 

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Semyazza1985 said:

You see, someone has made the effort to raise the price and he succeeded.

First you cannot compare bitcoin market where every possible statistic is open to everone, second it was still a temporary change. Check how bitcoin charts looks for 1 year period and 5 year period.

 

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Semyazza1985 said:

But are you sure? How many times have you said that you can value my time? Remember, someone will evaluate your time and behave like you from situation A, that it is a funny gain or maybe even a loss.

Well, if you look closely at my posts I said that already:

18 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Trying to undermine a prices is simply a waste of time (because effort is bigger than the gain).

So to summarize:

• Shifting prices is usually not worth the gain, it is usually a loss if you consider time = money
• Process would need to be repeated for specific period of time
• Requires a massive amount of money or time
• Is related to item market volume (the more popular item the more time/money you need to invest)

26 minutes ago, (PS4)Semyazza1985 said:

on the shopping list of the given item, their number and how quickly they disappear.

Wrong. If you plan to keep items in that group of 1000 players you would need to buy them after maximum of 1 minute after putting offer. That means:

• If you buy it too fast, no external observer as you call it will even see it.
• If you let it on for too long someone outside the group will buy it.

Considering how fast I sold Hydroid Prime sets It is safe to say if you put MPS for 50p they will dissapear faster than 20 seconds. If you dont believe me make a little experiment. Put yourself online in warframe.market (it is closer to AH than TC), put any popular item for minus 10p of the lowest price, and see how fast people will whisper to you.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)Semyazza1985 said:

you can calculate how much of this tax I will pay if MPS costs not 50 platinum but 10 platinum? (extremely low price - I exaggerated it just to make it easier for you to see it).

If you put MPS for 10p, you will have a maximum of 3 seconds to buy it. Anyone who will see such price will click buy now. And BAM! item is gone.

32 minutes ago, (PS4)Semyazza1985 said:

Do you know what TC has besides the price? This thing is called V A L U E.

What a rubbish. This is not exclusive for TC. It exists also on W.M and AH. Same as in real world.

None of the points you listed for TC is pro. Most of them are cons. Archaic model of trading that is long gone because it had so many flaws you can't image.

On the other hand [Trade] channel still exists in wow and it is used for goods that cannot be sold on AH or for trading LARGE quantities of common resources.

34 minutes ago, (PS4)Semyazza1985 said:

Stop to monetize the value. Value is not a price.

The fact that someone wants to sell something means value = price tag he put on it. If I have one Maiming Strike Im not gonna sell it because it has value greater than market price. If I had 3 maimings I could sell 2 because those 2 holds exact the same value as market price.

 

Now some more calculations:

1000 players vs 20 000 market users.

Asumming their average MR16.
MPS market price 60p, 200 daily volume.
Group of 1000 players wants to shift price to 50.

It is NOT SAFE to assume they would be able to keep buying their own goods of AH.
Each transactions costs them 5p and 2 trades (1 sell + 1 buy)
They can make (1000/2) * MR transactions per day = 8000 transactions within closed group.
Each day at least 50 (1/4 of market volume) transactions are needed.

So minimum of 50 and maximum of 8000. That is 250-40000p lost per day in taxes.
In a month you lose incredible amount of hours spent on AH and a MINIMUM of 7500plat just to shift market price of a SINGLE item by 10p.

The fact that you cannot back off in AH makes it invulnerable to tactics like spamming trade chat and ignoring buyers.

[GlaikitMayflies]

14 hours ago, qscgg said:

don't even need to be an auction house... just give us vendor system like other MMORPG. 

This, we don't even need an auction house, just a basic trading system. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by toxicpanda

[(PSN)Semyazza1985]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Semyazza1985 said:

• No, I'm not trying to protect the market from people like Kaminariss. I try to protect the market from people like me - cold-blood-INTJ-personality-type-analysts.

 

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

So to summarize:

• Shifting prices is usually not worth the gain, it is usually a loss if you consider time = money
• Process would need to be repeated for specific period of time
• Requires a massive amount of money or time
• Is related to item market volume (the more popular item the more time/money you need to invest)

Spoiler

I will reveal how Evil I am (or how bad I could be)
If my goal was to involve you in the consideration of Auction Houses - I won, you lost.
If my goal was to get you away from playing Warframe and telling me why the auction house market is better - I won, you lost.
If Fenwyn's goal was to create a fast with as many answers as possible, and I help him - we won, you lost.
Maybe they are stupid assumptions, but until you know what the real goal of the game is. You do not even know how much you lost.

Bonus: How experienced TC users defend themselves against Scamming / Defend their price

Spoiler

 

Guy want to buy [Augur secrets] 

 

Screet shoot is from today. One hour ago. Nothing is fake. Belive or not.

Edited March 2, 2018 by (PS4)Semyazza1985

[thalion987]

Maybe a little of topic, but please let us trade in our own ships and maybe even on missions. In the majority of trades it happens that you have to wait for 10 minutes or you just dont get an anwser when trading. when using market ofc.

[(PSN)Semyazza1985]

3 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

The fact that someone wants to sell something means value = price tag he put on it. If I have one Maiming Strike Im not gonna sell it because it has value greater than market price. If I had 3 maimings I could sell 2 because those 2 holds exact the same value as market price.

Mr Price Tag I have something for you :)
 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

You are awere what I am going to say right now? In a game like in a real world we are living the is more than one currency. 

So your assumption that : If I had 3 maimings I could sell 2 because those 2 holds exact the same value as market price. It is only partially true. 

You have not understand that there is more than one currency in the game. Not just platinum. We have Rhino (ium), Ash (ium), Maiming (ium), etc. You can not just tag everything with platinum because you're just limited to it.
You must learn that the world has many variables in the same way as it has many constants.
Do not assume that everyone has the same restrictions as you have.

 

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by (PS4)Semyazza1985

[Kaminariss]

Ok if you wanna play examples lets go

1. Someone approaches you and tell you that he will give you 1 milion USD for licking his shoes in front of camera, would you do it? Honestly.
2. Would I sell my WoW account for the exact amount that I see its value? (gold, items, achievements, time spent etc)
3. Would you be willing to be someone else friend for a lots of money? Like meeting once a week, talking sometimes, chatting sometimes?

Now tell me what you would do and what do you think most people would do in those examples?

My answers encrypted: 131116116 (will decrypt them when you answer)