So sick of trading chat, why can't we get an auction house?

[-Temp0-]

• Цитата

  desperate new player sells god roll rivens for 20p, because they dont know

  Yeaaah that is absolutely not the case.

Everyone seem to think of new players as "cute clueless newbies that don't know better" but in reality they're the ones trying to buy expensive stuff that they don't need or frames for nothing and the ones who would tell you you're nuts if you're selling a set for more than say 100p for example and insult you to boot when you feruse to hand theem some Ember or Loki for their price. They're also the ones who would be trying to sell "GoD!1!! rivens" for 1+k plat even if in reality it's trash because they've heard that rivens are expensive so no matter the riven if they see crit big nummbers like +200 damage or +200 crit chance even if it's an absolutely trash weapon or don't benefit from those stats.

Цитата

new players cant look what actual prices is and more likely will be robbed

If you can't bother to ask around before rushing to buy, this is exclusively your problem. Again in my experience new players are the ones who will be trying to buy stuff for ridiculously low prices as the opposite of throwing their plat away like that (like syndicate mods for 5p when you cna easily sell them for 15)

Цитата

Yup, you can't go AFK even for 15 minutes.

"Even". Lmao.

Yes you can't do that, unsurprisingly, if you want da money. In 15 minutes you can buy "the thing" 10 times over, and as petty it is that someone ignored you, nothing unusual or worthy of mentioning happened. You get extra credit if you respond fast, it's only natural to get negative response if you don't respond at all.

Edited March 6, 2018 by -Temp0-

[Volinus7]

This thread makes you wonder how much resistance was made to stop the modern stock exchange/market from forming lol. 

[helioth137]

It would be nice to get a word on this from DE, a yes no maybe... 

It's something a large amount of players want and I do think it would increase sales by removing the hassle...

Let people throw their money at you :)

[ngrazer]

4 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

"Even". Lmao.

Yes you can't do that, unsurprisingly, if you want da money. In 15 minutes you can buy "the thing" 10 times over, and as petty it is that someone ignored you, nothing unusual or worthy of mentioning happened. You get extra credit if you respond fast, it's only natural to get negative response if you don't respond at all.

Well that's why I'm saying the current system, even with AH-like sites, is nowhere close to the actual AH even though many people keep on trying to prove otherwise. 

And it's only natural to get a negative response with IN-GAME trading, when you post 'WTS this Riven' in trade chat and then you don't respond in 1 minute or so to received PMs, but it's a completely different story for third-party sites where the said Riven may be up for sale for the whole past month. You can't just live in the game 24/7 for month you know. So any sane person understands that seller isn't a bot, but rather a human, and thus he can't be near the PC all the time. That's why these third-party sites also have their own PM system which a sane person can use. So no, your attempt to defend persons like that one wasn't successful.

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

 but it's a completely different story for third-party sites where the said Riven may be up for sale for the whole past month. You can't just live in the game 24/7 for month you know. 

The site has "appear online" in-game and on site and invisible modes.

If you don't respond at all while appearing online, yeah it's kinda your problem and your fault. 

Цитата

So any sane person understands that seller isn't a bot, but rather a human

And so far said person did nothing really wrong, just ignored him. Big effing deal.If you anticipate that the seller is human you should also accept that buyer is human as well.

Цитата

That's why these third-party sites also have their own PM system which a sane person can use.

Warframe.market's message system is awful and in 9 cases out of 10 you will not get any kind of response from a buyer or a seller, especially if his status is "online in-game" - he has it running on the background and will not receiver or hear a message signal until he will tab on it or open warframe.market itself.

Цитата

 Also, I will pay a couple of plat extra to deal with a seller that has a higher feedback rating. 

High rating doesn't mean anything other than 1 someone's been selling for ridiculously low prices which means he will be at the top of the seacrh anyways 2 someone asked people to rate for them after they bought something.

If anything you should be watching out for people with neagative rating like -5, - 10 - often it means they're just bots.

Edited March 6, 2018 by -Temp0-

[PatternistSlave]

6 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

This thread makes you wonder how much resistance was made to stop the modern stock exchange/market from forming lol. 

I play the game to be a space ninja, not a stock broker.

[(PSN)iPoisonedFlint]

No! 

[Volinus7]

21 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

I play the game to be a space ninja, not a stock broker.

You're just a client, DE is the broker. 

[Urabask]

9 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Gold IS your account balance and nothing else that is what makes it comparable to a gift card balance.

You can buy everthing in game (that is purchasable) for GOLD. Isn't that the same with platinum?
Platinum - in game virtual currency. Gold - in game virtual currency. Both convertable from real money.

Lets recap a bit. You said DE cannot make a tax in platinum because it is supposedly against some kind of law - which turned out to not be a true. And you even provided evidence yourself with a link to that article. Did you even read it? I bet you didn't. Because all that article says is that some countries/states have laws that transactions made using virtual currencies should have tax paid:

There isn't a single sentence that says companies cannot make trade tax themselves.

 

That is one of the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

"If electricity was beneficial for humanty, people would put much pressure on development regardless of the cost." Yet it took us quite a while.

You see, there is nothing in this world that is worth regardless of the cost. You have no idea what is the cost of development of AH, and you claim devs would just do it regardless.

Thats just stupid. Even I don't know how much of the cost it would be for DE, I only know more or less just because I happen to be a software developer. What if it took them 5 months of work? Would that still be acceptable to not see any update for 5 months? Nope. And thats the valid reason against AH (also the reason I am neutral).

Christ your reading comprehension is TERRIBLE.  Like I said the section on taxation is about goverments taxing electronic value.  This is completely different from a developer taxing it.  The taxes you're citing would be paid in real money to a government.

Gold as an account balance is not comparable because you do not directly purchase it for real money.

For a software developer you don't seem to understand how projects like that would work.  The idea that they'd have to freeze development on the rest of the game is ridiculous and you should know it.  

[Kaminariss]

3 hours ago, Urabask said:

Christ your reading comprehension is TERRIBLE.

I believe that is your problem. Lets analyze my post once more:

Quote

Because all that article says is that some countries/states have laws that transactions made using virtual currencies should have tax paid:

Which means the only tax this document mentiones is the tax that has governments wants to impose on such transactions. The next sentence clears everything:

3 hours ago, Urabask said:

There isn't a single sentence that says companies cannot make trade tax themselves.

Which means that document did not even mention once that taxing virtual currencies is forbidden.

It's not that my reading comprehension has any problems. It clearly means you do not understand what I just wrote.

3 hours ago, Urabask said:

For a software developer you don't seem to understand how projects like that would work.  The idea that they'd have to freeze development on the rest of the game is ridiculous and you should know it.  

Either freezing development for 5 months or developing slowly for over a year. As a software developer I also know that "pushing things live" year after they have been started is a really bad idea.

[Urabask]

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

I believe that is your problem. Lets analyze my post once more:

Which means the only tax this document mentiones is the tax that has governments wants to impose on such transactions. The next sentence clears everything:

Which means that document did not even mention once that taxing virtual currencies is forbidden.

It's not that my reading comprehension has any problems. It clearly means you do not understand what I just wrote.

Either freezing development for 5 months or developing slowly for over a year. As a software developer I also know that "pushing things live" year after they have been started is a really bad idea.

Because a private company cannot levy taxes.  Taxes legally speaking are imposed by governments.  You can call it a tax in the context of an in game auction house but the government sees it as a fee on an account balance.

You skimmed the article without understanding it and zeroed in on the one part of it that had the word tax in it without understanding what it even means.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Urabask

[Kaminariss]

3 hours ago, Urabask said:

sees it as a fee on an account balance.

Same fee as rushing things in foundry. Yet again i am pretty sure it is perfectly possible. Both gold and plat is a virtual currency that can be measured with real money.  

4 hours ago, Urabask said:

You skimmed the article without understanding it

You didn't even read it, and no, I read it all. And again what support what I said: There isn't a single sentence that says companies cannot make trade tax themselves.

Whatever you call it a tax, fee, you name it.

[Shockwave-]

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 12:58 AM, Kaminariss said:

And thats where the the fault of your argument lies in, you are assuming that AH will make everything cheap. Nope it wont, and that invalidates your whole argument. Making trading more accessible will not only increase a number of sellers but also a buyers. You also proved my point:

Prices are going down on their own because everything is getting more and more easy TO ACQUIRE, not to buy. And thats the result of supply and demand curve. Just because trading is easier doesn't mean you wont have to get specific relics and run missions to open them.

Also as someone who has almost anything in the game and bought some plat from DE lemmie tell you this. I spent more on weapons/warframe slots, cosmetics than on any prime i bought in game.

 

An AH will make everything really cheap there is ZERO question on that. Buying is limited mostly by how much people are willing to SPEND in real money, NOT by "effort", however the current trade chat decreases supply because it is annoying to many people. If it were easy to sell things, EVERYONE would sell EVERYTHING extra they had, which would massively increase supply. Trade chat is a barrier at the moment or else you wouldn't be asking for an AH. Prices will drop precipitously with an in game AH.

I have TONS of inventory I never even bother to sell in trade chat because it's not worth the time, if I could list all my extra mods, all my extra arcanes, all my extra whatever and have someone just buy it and it gets deposited into my plat bank... I would... so would MANY others.

[Urabask]

18 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Same fee as rushing things in foundry. Yet again i am pretty sure it is perfectly possible. Both gold and plat is a virtual currency that can be measured with real money.  

You didn't even read it, and no, I read it all. And again what support what I said: There isn't a single sentence that says companies cannot make trade tax themselves.

Whatever you call it a tax, fee, you name it.

Gold IS NOT PURCHASED WITH MONEY.  You add money to your battle.net account, buy a token, then sell it for gold.  So the auction house never applies any fees to your battle.net account and therefore it does not matter that they apply fees to your purchases made with gold.

And no you obviously did not read it because the section on gift certificate laws has the line, "Many of these state laws prohibit expiration dates and service fees.".

So no, you cannot have a trade tax because it would be a fee.  And to be clear here some states prohibit any fee on the account balance.

You.  Are.  Wrong.

Rushing an item in the foundry results in you getting an item and is a purchase.  

You can be as sure as you want to be but no developer taxes premium currency.  Auction house taxes are ALWAYS a tax on a currency you can earn via gameplay and NEVER on a currency you purchase with money.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Urabask

[Teoarrk]

If an AH was established, then I only would be okay with credits or ducats being used to trade for items, not plat. I've ridden the rollercoaster of a premium currency AH before and it only ends in the community despising the AH.

[Kaminariss]

44 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

An AH will make everything really cheap there is ZERO question on that.

That may only come from someone uneducated about economy, sorry, its not true.

45 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

If it were easy to sell things, EVERYONE would sell EVERYTHING extra they had, which would massively increase supply.

No because limit of concurrent items, trade tax and limit of trades per day would stop you from doing that.

46 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

Trade chat is a barrier at the moment or else you wouldn't be asking for an AH.

I am not asking for AH, It is practically useless for me since I have almost everything in game. And trade chat is not a barrier at all sice I used warframe.market for all my transactions.

I don't sell my things unless I acquire full set, and I am not targeting anything in particular, I simply run relics I have.

49 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

I have TONS of inventory I never even bother to sell in trade chat because it's not worth the time, if I could list all my extra mods, all my extra arcanes, all my extra whatever and have someone just buy it and it gets deposited into my plat bank... I would... so would MANY others.

And thanks for proving my point. If anything is below 10p its not worth my time to enlist it. And no, you wouldn't be able to list all your mods, arcanes, blabla because you would be able to enlist maximum of 5-10 items at the same time. It is naive to assume there won't be such limit.

 

47 minutes ago, Urabask said:

Gold IS NOT PURCHASED WITH MONEY

It is. Same as platinum, both plat and gold an be also acquired in game.

48 minutes ago, Urabask said:

You add money to your battle.net account, buy a token, then sell it for gold. 

Why do you even respond if you have no idea what are you talking about? You can buy token directly, no need to add balance to blizzard account.

51 minutes ago, Urabask said:

Rushing an item in the foundry results in you getting an item and is a purchase. 

You would get the item anyway, so it is a fee for speeding up a process.

52 minutes ago, Urabask said:

So no, you cannot have a trade tax because it would be a fee.  And to be clear here some states prohibit any fee on the account balance.

It is not a fee on some imaginary account balance, it is a fee for using a service (AH) to sell your goods. If you still don't understand, it is the same as rushing things in foundry. Basically you purchase a right to use their service to sell your goods. Premium currency is also not any gift card. It is simply a converted real currency into virtual currency. Back before you were claiming it is because it is "prepaid gift card", where did that argument go?

[TheRealDestian]

1 hour ago, Shockwave- said:

An AH will make everything really cheap there is ZERO question on that.

Warframe.market shows plenty of items already at 1 plat.

The price of these items will be driven by supply and demand, not the accessibility of purchasing them.

An AH or consignment service would open the market up to an equal number of buyers and sellers. Nothing would change and it's certain that 1p items aren't going to drop any lower.

Edited March 6, 2018 by TheRealDestian

[Aggh]

1 hour ago, Kaminariss said:

It is. Same as platinum, both plat and gold an be also acquired in game.

Point me to where blizzard directly sells gold for cash.  I'm waiting.

1 hour ago, TheRealDestian said:

Warframe.market shows plenty of items already at 1 plat.

The price of these items will be driven by supply and demand, not the accessibility of purchasing them.

An AH or consignment service would open the market up to an equal number of buyers and sellers. Nothing would change and it's certain that 1p items aren't going to drop any lower.

Buying stuff has never been hard.  You've always been able to go to trade chat and have sellers in seconds.  Selling, on the other hand is harder since it's very easy to get drowned out in trade chat.  If it weren't such a hassle, people wouldn't want an AH.  An AH will increase supply because a lot of people who haven't wanted to bother with the hassle of trying to sell stuff will suddenly be able to easily post items for sale.  Demand does not have a lot of room for growth, supply does.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Aggh

[Kaminariss]

1 hour ago, Aggh said:

Point me to where blizzard directly sells gold for cash.  I'm waiting.

Point me to where I said blizzard is directly sells gold for cash. I'm wating.

1 hour ago, Aggh said:

Buying stuff has never been hard.

Neither was selling. And lets bo honest here, nobody who was really into trading was using trade chat. Most of the rich players I know from various guilds were using warframe.market (and wftrader.com) for that because trade chat was for masochists.

2 hours ago, Urabask said:

Not really interested in a circular argument that is going nowhere due to your inability to understand English properly.

Lack of arguments made you resort to ad hominem? Well let me just remind you the moment you lost all creditability:

On 1.03.2018 at 11:58 PM, Urabask said:

And in Warframe supply is equal to slightly less than the total number of an item in the game.  Every time someone gets more than 1-2 of an item that item is immediately available for sale.

 

[Aggh]

4 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Point me to where I said blizzard is directly sells gold for cash. I'm wating.

That is the only way it could possibly relevant to the actual conversation on gift certifcate law, so if you're not making that point, why the hell do you keep bringing it up?  If it can't actually be bought directly with cash it's not affected by the law being discussed.  How have you been blathering for multiple pages on this without realizing that?

 

4 minutes ago, Kaminariss said:

Neither was selling.

That must be why people want an AH, right?  Get your head out of the sand.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Aggh

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

As I mentioned in another thread, a auction house or afk trading Post would be alright if it required plat or a membership to use

Everything besides cosmetics can be obtained in solo & for free including primeswith some time restrictions. A trade chat is freely available, a afk trading Post should required currency to be used. Lore wise someone would require upkeep to keep it up. I have more reason for this but I'll leave that to the population.

[Kaminariss]

5 minutes ago, Aggh said:

That is the only way it could possibly relevant to the actual conversation on gift certifcate law

Because it is not relevant to either of the cases, neither WoW with indirect prepaid token nor warframe with direct currency conversion can be called "gift cards" nor "gift certificates". Funny enough WoW is closer because it has indirect medium that holds value in both currencies (like a gift card), and you can "redeem wow token". Can you "redeem" buying platinum?

http://cca.hawaii.gov/blog/gift-certificate-law/

If you read it carefully you will see something along the lines: "Service fees, including service fees for dormancy or inactivity, are prohibited."

But that law is about gift cards/gift certificates, not virtual currencies in general. Can you even gift a platinum in warframe? Here is another example:

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/s-11.shtml

Now lets take a closer look at definition of "gift card" and certificate:

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/s11_chart.pdf

Quote

Generally, that it is “issued on a prepaid basis primarily for personal, family, or household purposes to a consumer in a specified amount.” Federal law creates different categories of ‘gift certificate,’ ‘store gift card,’ ‘general use prepaid card.’ 

14 minutes ago, Aggh said:

That must be why people want an AH, right?  Get your head out of the sand.

People want AH to have it even easier. Difficulty was nearly the same in buying and selling. Try to buy syndicate weapon of the trade chat, I dare you. Then try to sell it there. In both cases I lost like 30 minutes without any result.

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Evilpricetag said:

As I mentioned in another thread, a auction house or afk trading Post would be alright if it required plat or a membership to use

Of course, i said that trillions of times, trade tax. You must compensate somehow the amount of time that would have been lost if you used traditional trading system.

[Aggh]

2 hours ago, Kaminariss said:

Because it is not relevant to either of the cases, neither WoW with indirect prepaid token nor warframe with direct currency conversion can be called "gift cards" nor "gift certificates". Funny enough WoW is closer because it has indirect medium that holds value in both currencies (like a gift card), and you can "redeem wow token". Can you "redeem" buying platinum?

http://cca.hawaii.gov/blog/gift-certificate-law/

If you read it carefully you will see something along the lines: "Service fees, including service fees for dormancy or inactivity, are prohibited."

But that law is about gift cards/gift certificates, not virtual currencies in general. Can you even gift a platinum in warframe? Here is another example:

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/s-11.shtml

Now lets take a closer look at definition of "gift card" and certificate:

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/legal_guides/s11_chart.pdf

People want AH to have it even easier. Difficulty was nearly the same in buying and selling. Try to buy syndicate weapon of the trade chat, I dare you. Then try to sell it there. In both cases I lost like 30 minutes without any result.

Of course, i said that trillions of times, trade tax. You must compensate somehow the amount of time that would have been lost if you used traditional trading system.

I don't need any syndicate weapons, can get them for free from friends when I need them now.  The only time I ever bought one (vaykor hek) I got barraged with PMs within seconds.  All you have to do is switch to the right region depending on what time it is and you can WTB just about anything in minutes.

It's kind of hilarious how you are too anal to understand legal definitions.  You are obsessing over the title of the law (which has no affect on what it legally covers) when the definitions of what the law covers are much broader.  Laws do not have to be specifically written for a specific product for it to come under their purview.

Hawaii for instance specifically mentions that it can be any medium that fits the criteria. 

§481B-13 Gift certificates:

" "Gift certificate" or "certificate" includes any electronic card with a banked dollar value where the issuer has received payment for the full banked dollar value for the future purchase or delivery of goods or services, any certificate where the issuer has received payment for the full face value of the certificate for future purchases or delivery of goods or services, and any other medium that evidences the giving of consideration in exchange for the right to redeem the certificate, electronic card, or other medium for goods, food, or services of at least an equal value. "Gift certificate" or "certificate" does not include a card, certificate, or other medium that is: "

The California law says that a gift card is something "issued on a prepaid basis primarily for personal,family, or household purposes to a consumer in a specified amount."  That is a definition that platinum easily falls under.  A platinum tax on using the AH could easily be considered a service fee since would be a fee charged when spending platinum.   Do you really think so many companys would be going through so many hoops within AH implementation if this kind of thing was legally feasible?

 

[Kaminariss]

6 hours ago, Aggh said:

and any other medium that evidences the giving of consideration in exchange for the right to redeem

Well, look at this again, the bolded text. Is there any kind of medium in warframe, between cash and platinum? Or is it anyhow redeemable? No. You can't even gift platinum to other player from their shop - probably because of this law.

6 hours ago, Aggh said:

issued on a prepaid basis

We alredy got past this I think? Warframe has direct currency exchange. There is nothing 'prepaid' about buying platinum.

In fact, WoW token could be called prepaid. And you can redeem it.

[RistN]

On 25.2.2018. at 3:14 AM, Kaminariss said:

DE wants you to buy cheap from other people. Why? Because you won't be able to earn much platinum by selling things.

And you totally thrown away you're economic theory about supply and demand which you tried to explain to me by quoting me(and many others) in this topic.

If you make things cheap then value of platinum rises meaning that ones that buy platinum from DE won't be buying it so often as they do now.And lets be real about that.Ones that spend money on games will still keep doing that and ones that don't will also keep playing this game without spending a dime on it.So this new theory of youres will actually make DE and this game lose money.

BTW

Having at least 2 or 3 posts per 16 pages and bumping this topic won't give you desired results.

Majority of this community is against AH.It may seem that it will make you're trades easier on short term but on long term it will have negative influences on Warframes economy.