Slide Attack/Maiming Strike/Whip and Polearm range -- an absurd mixture of overpoweredness

[sleepychewbacca]

2 hours ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

That's not an argument, that's just yet another attempt to discredit other people's point of view, just like pretty much +90% of everything that was posted to defend this Spin-2-win spam. Dramatizing and discrediting others is the real example of what you described as "passed being constructive". 

I apologise if you feel that I am being patronising, or if I am discrediting people. What I said is simply my opinion on the issue, and more specifically in response to Buzkyl's statement. I say it's beaten to death and not constructive simply because every time a post like this is created, we get scenarios where parties are opposed to each other, and very little middle ground is made.

Doubly so, I further stand by what I said to Buzkyl where he pointed out to me, fairly so, when he said it's a dead horse issue because there may be the possibility of a problem. If you do feel the same about my responses, I would like to clarify I meant it in a specific reply to someone, and my response goes with this as well. It feels a bit out of context to have this quote of mine isolated. 

6 minutes ago, Echoa said:

he doesnt have one, hence he repeats that because he falsely believes that something loses relevance the more its discussed and simply doesnt want to do so and cant find a good point to counter the OP argument.  

I do have opinions on the matter. Maiming Strike is an easy way to clear enemies, but it pales in comparison to status builds. Moreover, it is assumable that the calls for nerfs will not end with Maiming Strike. It will go on to the next hot weapon, ad infinitum. For example, the next hot topic may be that Condition Overload should not stack with multiple status effects, and that it should be nerfed. 

However, if you disagree with me, you'd be inclined to rebut anything I say on the basis that you are emotionally invested against my position, and a satisfactory answer for you would be me recanting my position, and saying that you are right. You're entitled to your opinions, and I respect that. 

Therefore, I have very little motivation in circular discussions like this, and resort to blanket statements. Circular simply because if we engage in this debate, you will be adamant to be correct, and so will I for reasons that we feel are valid to us. Neither of us are likely to come to a compromise that will satisfy both parties. You can accuse me of dodging the question, or being pedantic, but simply, between the both of us, we are unlikely to come up with a solution that will satisfy the issue. 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

2 hours ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

So, why do you go public then if only the Mission Reward interest you? How is going solo limiting you in your selfish relic/prime hunting? Serious question. I want to know why somebody who doesn't care about others like that would have the right to say to those people to play solo if they disagree with your "gameplay"?

You're the one beating the damn horse with all this "beat down the dead horse" crap. Could you at least try to find an argument instead of just repeting the same expession over and over again? 

The rarity of something doesn't make it less broken nor acceptable to be broken. The rarity of Primed Chamber wouldn't mean make it fair if it allowed to one shot anything or room-cleaning with a spamable 20m+ AoE able to one shot level 150+, even if it's the rarest mod in the game. 

That's not an argument, that's just yet another attempt to discredit other people's point of view, just like pretty much +90% of everything that was posted to defend this Spin-2-win spam. Dramatizing and discrediting others is the real example of what you described as "passed being constructive". 

 

45 minutes ago, Echoa said:

he doesnt have one, hence he repeats that because he falsely believes that something loses relevance the more its discussed and simply doesnt want to do so and cant find a good point to counter the OP argument.  

There’s literally 3-4 topics of disgruntled players feeling disenfranchised by the melee meta in many forms of combination, build variety, synergy, coupled with Warframe ability synergy, and you want me to throw my hat in here to provide an argument that would be counterargued into another counter argument where there is no sensible agreement or resolution to the matter at hand? You’re not going to budge, certainly many players who have spoken against the op and have provided possible resolutions on the matter won’t budge, and you want me to “discuss” this matter where it’s going to brew further toxicity with my take that you’re going to ultimately disagree with? 

Nope.

Like I mentioned with my first post in this topic: There is nothing ingenious to discuss, and I’ve had enough with talking about the melee meta that a variety of people are frustrated about. Whatever solutions/resolutions people have discussed over and over again are not enough to fulfill your dissatisfaction. What am I to do? Alleviate your frustration by becoming your circular Socratic argumentative sandbag and go down the rabbit hole to find the singular truth to the matter of the melee meta?

You have to be honest with yourselves here: Creating topics and venting out your distaste for Maiming Strike, Blood Rush, Whips, Polearms, Reach mods... It’s a huge circle-jerk Intervention in practice for those against this type of meta. However, there are genuine players that enjoy this type of efficient and fast gameplay. There are methods that are more efficient than these as well. Are you going to lash out at them because they are “this class of gamer”?

This is why I’m constantly using the “dead horse” analogy. Would you like it to be a dead elephant instead? Go get your cricket bats, and swing with much vigor. Go on, vent it out.

Me, I’d rather be gaming than be stuck in this topic brewing the Witch’s cauldron. It’s an ad nauseum topic full of ad nauseum points and counter points that will never reach an end, such as the nerf horde mentality. Have fun with it.

Edited March 14, 2018 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23

[Tramadols]

I use it. With speed on volt it’s stupid how much damage it does. I to am guilty of this. In fact why use guns in this game I told myself. Hate to agree but I won’t be crying if it does get toned down it’s the most effective way of killing everything. And the most boring and kills my hand. 

[jfhsanseiIII]

On 3/13/2018 at 9:47 AM, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

It gets nerfed, something else will take its place, more threads complaining about a mechanic will be brought up on the forums.

Again, it’s an endless chain of complaining about getting something nerfed when something else can easily take its place. 

Again, you’re beating a dead horse. You might as well eat it at this point to conserve energy.

That’s how discussions on balance continue.  In fact, that’s kind of what dealing with problems in life are like all the time. A diss union on balance. Trust me ask any married person.  

I agree with the OP that anything that minimizes a threat to near zero with little to no effort isn’t very fun for everyone. Telling people to “play solo” isn’t a very thoughtful argument either.  Now if the statement were about better players or better geared players I’d have a different opinion.  The game is billed as a “coop game” though. So, having skills, mods, or weapons that defeat that seem somewhat ill conceived. 

[VortexInfinity]

if DE nerfs maiming strike and rivens, how is DE going to compensate the players that have spent lotsa plat on maiming strike and rivens. Furthurmore, on an economical perspective, nerfing maiming strike and the relevant rivens will only hurt DE plat sales. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by VortexInfinity

[rune_me]

1 hour ago, VortexInfinity said:

if DE nerfs maiming strike and rivens, how is DE going to compensate the players that have spent lotsa plat on maiming strike and rivens. Furthurmore, on an economical perspective, nerfing maiming strike and the relevant rivens will only hurt DE plat sales. 

Why would they compensate them? DE doesn't owe them anything. If you spend plat on Maiming Strike, that was your choice. In no way where you promised that it would never be altered or changed.

[CephalonBot]

On 3/13/2018 at 4:04 PM, Eureka.seveN said:

So lets ask some mag players what they think [Radio silence]

You really should actually ask for opinions before jumping to conclusions like that, I'm a Mag player and have been playing her since before Polarize got nerfed. Currently I like her more than ever since her recent changes and I'd also like to point out that people post to complain about a frames current state more than they do to express their gratitude for a frames current state.

[(PSN)ATreidezz]

13 hours ago, VortexInfinity said:

The mods rarity and price justifies its power. 

This,

Not everyone has MS, hence anyone wants it get nerfed is weird. There's not much people running around dominating/stealing every kills ingame with this mod. 

Telos boltace nerf was different, everyone can have it. Its not RARE. And there's alot of people spamming it everywhere. Hence the nerf was justifiable. 

[AcidicGhost]

8 hours ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

 

I agree with the OP that anything that minimizes a threat to near zero with little to no effort isn’t very fun for everyone.  The game is billed as a “coop game” though. So, having skills, mods, or weapons that defeat that seem somewhat ill conceived. 

So then people shouldn't be allowed to bring any of the tanking frames to low level missions? Rhino has to press two and then faces no threat from any non endless lith and meso fissure. Oberon has to press three and hang out and no one in the cell is at risk, same for trinity. Inaros just has to fit hunter adrenaline or rage and functionally cannot be killed by anything on the star chart by spamming 1. Should I not be allowed to bring my Sonar banshee because it makes everyone kill everything too fast?

I don't like playing with Limbos. Their skill package annoys me, and it inhibits my enjoyment of whatever I am doing. 

I leave matches with limbos. I don't tell them to not play, because who am I to demand someone stop doing something they enjoy just because it ticks me off?

 

[S0V3REiGN]

So people get annoyed that someone holds more power then them? If someone plays 3k plat for a riven, a maiming strike and maxes a primed reach let them have their fun, it’s quite an investment to get that power.

[rune_me]

7 minutes ago, S0V3REiGN said:

So people get annoyed that someone holds more power then them? If someone plays 3k plat for a riven, a maiming strike and maxes a primed reach let them have their fun, it’s quite an investment to get that power.

It's not about holding more power. I got annoyed by ember and WoF all the time. This was not because people had more power than me. I had ember too. I had access to the exact same frame and abilities they had. None of which changed the fact that ember annoyed me.

[Vindicus8235]

23 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

• Why is OP taking away people's fun.
• If you don't like it, leave when it's used.
• It's PvE why should we try to balance
• Aren't there other things DE should focus on?

 

All these are excuses. Repeated ad nauseam every-time the subject of nerfs are brought up, regardless of reason no matter how reasonable/unreasonable,logical/fallacious the argument may be. People always say the same story. Ignoring the problem does not make it go away.

Slide attacks aren't inherently bad, nor is a mod like maiming strike/bloodrush  or whip weapons like the atterax but in certain combination they create broken mechanics. The calculation of BR w/Maiming strike already allows any weapon to become crit viable, combine with with extended reach weapons and mods like beserker and macros and you have a recipe for spamming 10M AoE crit blenders. And that is not inline with DE's intention of player fun. Just because a player finds a mechanic 'fun' that doesn't mean it's good nor healthy for the game.

Good post.  10m is being generous to the slide attack spammers though, that's like the low end.  Decent riven and they're over 20m.  Believe max is around 24m on scoliac.  Max affinity range not including focus trees is 50m just to put into perspective.  Someone slides into a room, with a melee weapon, and aoes with 100% red crits for half of affinity range.  Simply absurd.

[NeoHEX31]

Chargeable slide attack might fix this, instead of just randomly nerfing the CD/DMG/Range.

Edited March 14, 2018 by NeoHEX31

[hooperinius]

Slide attacks are fine

Maiming is fine

I think melee range might get capped at 150% or something simply because of how high some players are managing to stack it but it's not exactly game-breaking

Honestly this sounds like a whole bunch of whining by people who are mad that someone using those items did more damage than they did, which means literally nothing anyways as you don't get rewards for topping a damage meter

[jfhsanseiIII]

10 hours ago, AcidicGhost said:

So then people shouldn't be allowed to bring any of the tanking frames to low level missions? Rhino has to press two and then faces no threat from any non endless lith and meso fissure. Oberon has to press three and hang out and no one in the cell is at risk, same for trinity. Inaros just has to fit hunter adrenaline or rage and functionally cannot be killed by anything on the star chart by spamming 1. Should I not be allowed to bring my Sonar banshee because it makes everyone kill everything too fast?

I don't like playing with Limbos. Their skill package annoys me, and it inhibits my enjoyment of whatever I am doing. 

I leave matches with limbos. I don't tell them to not play, because who am I to demand someone stop doing something they enjoy just because it ticks me off?

 

Banshees abilities improve everyone’s ability to kill on the game. It doesn’t interfere with anyone. I don’t think this point was very well thought out  

Those tanking abilities don’t inhibit your ability to play the game though.  The argument is about anything that can interefere with another players ability to interact with the game.  If you want to discuss how tanking abilities provide too much invincibility then that’s another thread.  If a player is dying in the mission that isn’t the fault of the player with a better built frame   If a player is hitting a single button and everything dies in the blink of an eye, then there’s a problem   

Limbo’s skill set has been vastly improved since it’s more trolly iteration.  I agree that more adjustments could be made, but it’s in a much better Frame than it was before.  If you hate it and don’t want to okay with it that’s okay though.   

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

[Lawmonark]

All that spinning, one would think you would get dizzy.

 

What if they made a "stumble" effect. If you spin more than.. 3-4 times, then you wobble. Similar to "cleaving Whirlwind"

Example: 

 

 

[drup33]

2 hours ago, Krhymez said:

All that spinning, one would think you would get dizzy.

 

What if they made a "stumble" effect. If you spin more than.. 3-4 times, then you wobble. Similar to "cleaving Whirlwind"

Example: 

 

 

Nah it will create more problem instead of fixing, why? Because what happen if a horde of enemy surround you while u equiping secondary or primary? Shoot it one by one? Of course u use ur melee rather than shoot them one by one and get killed, and slide attack deals more damage than quick attack, well of course in low level mission they will died instantly but what about high level mission? If they make stumble effect, people will lose momentum and then got killed trying to get away from enemy horde

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

9 hours ago, Vindicus8235 said:

Good post.  10m is being generous to the slide attack spammers though, that's like the low end.  Decent riven and they're over 20m.  Believe max is around 24m on scoliac.  Max affinity range not including focus trees is 50m just to put into perspective.  Someone slides into a room, with a melee weapon, and aoes with 100% red crits for half of affinity range.  Simply absurd.

You are so fixated on this aren’t you. Even when people have openly pointed out Maiming Strike users are rare since;

1. Not everyone likws constantly spamming slide attacks.

2. MS is a rare mod that comes only every once in a while.

You also blatantly ignore other people pointing out to you that there are far more effective methods at killing large swarms of enemies in both melee and firearm weapons. Your definition of “simply absurd” can be used to justify a nerf to basically everything thats half decent at killing enemies.

Either call for a nerf for all things that fit under your category of OP, or don’t say anything at all. Cherry picking this particular mod/build only makes it look like you are not invested in actual “balance” and just want one thing you don’t particularly like gone, even if that thing is out classed or can be grouped in with a number of others.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

16 hours ago, rune_me said:

I got annoyed by ember and WoF all the time. This was not because people had more power than me. I had ember too.

I don’t think thats what he meant. He was most likely referring to the fact that Ember has more power than other people in the squad who are not Embers in the fact she kills everything before anyone else can, not that you don’t physically have the frame itself.

I hated WoF users personally. Thats why I left whenever one joined my squad or when I joined a squad that already had one. That method has worked out for me so far. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[(XBOX)Madinogi]

ok its clear many of you in the camp of "nerf MS" are being very shallow minded in this discussion especially you OP. you people care more about looking through your small view port and refuse to see the bigger picture. 

 

so many have already pointed out. once MS gets nerfed its only going be replaced by something just as potent if not more. thus repeating the cycle until every weapon/mod/warframe is a shadow of its former self and can barely take on lvl 40 enemies. not to mention so many of you seem to forget. their are other mods in the game besides Maiming Strike and Blood rush. just throwing on MS+BR isnt going allow you to all of a sudden begin one hit killing everything you come in contact with in the game. I.E sortie level enemies. you need other damage enhancing mods in order to pull that stuff off. and most likely including a riven mod which is complete RNG in all aspects since you not only need to get the mod to drop for that weapon, but also you need to roll the right stats on it which could take any where from 1 roll (unlikely) damn well into the 100's if not more rolls. thats ALOT of kuva being wasted just to get the right stats on ONE weapon. 

i just bought MS and BR and threw em on my atterax. and just right off the bat im not one shotting anything above lvl 25 with the slide. and certainly not room clearing as many of you seem to suggest. thats because i need more then just those 2 mods on it. which honestly throws out your entire arguments for nerfing the mod. because you have need other stuff you have to go out and get and level up in order to accomplish that. you guys are pretty much punishing players for going so far as to min max their builds to accomplish this kind of thing. devaluing all their time and effort just because you dont like how they play. thats REALLY petty. 

 

and me and others have already told you. if you dont like how others play. you are free to leave and go run the missions solo or with like minded friends. you are not forced into public games (unless DE removed your 3 other lobby settings forcing you into Pubs. but thats a DE problem not a player problem) theres a widely accepted rule in games with PUG features. "Anything and Everything goes" if you join a public match and they are not playing the way YOU want them to. it is not you're right to dictate to them how they should play. you can ask them nicely if they can stop. but they are not required to oblige you. to think they are is just you being insensitive and rather childish. if you dont like how someone plays you are free to leave and start up a solo or private session. 

this mentality is widely accepted among the playerbase but doesnt seem to be accepted by you. 

 

so in the midst of all this. i ask why is it ok for you dictate how other people should play when you yourself hit that join button on a public lobby knowing full well you are running the risk of getting teamed up with people who play a certain way you do not like. all of this is a YOU problem. because you dont like how others play. doesnt mean they need to be punished for it. that is selfish and childish thinking. 

 

for me its absolutely Ludicrous that things are getting nerfed in a bloody PvE game. 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

On 13/03/2018 at 10:12 PM, Buzkyl said:

• Why is OP taking away people's fun.
• If you don't like it, leave when it's used.
• It's PvE why should we try to balance
• Aren't there other things DE should focus on?

 

All these are excuses.

No, they are genuine points. Some nerfs are completely and utterly unnecessary and are just there because someone actually does want to ruin someones else fun, like that one person who keeps posting "Nerf the shotgun weapon class" threads. And those people always use the backwards “People are disagreeing with me, which proves I am right” logic, which is what the OP is using.

The bottom line is, this is a PVE focused game and yet we see more people crying for nerfs on here than in games that have more prominent PVP. So yes it is a little ridiculous how many people think that they can call for a nerf on the grounds of "I want my personal needs met."

If the thing in questions is actively proven to be more of a detriment to the community and the game itself like the Synoid Gammacor, a weapon which broke the game and basically made every other weapon choice redundant, then that is proper grounds for a nerf. However, a Maiming Strike build is not a problem. Not many people use it. It requires a specific weapon type to be most effective and it also requires a mod that is quite rare and will cost you a bundle on the market. The so called "elephant in the room" the OP is referring to, is an elephant only he and a tiny amount of others (including you) can see. Everyone else just sees empty space.

On 13/03/2018 at 10:12 PM, Buzkyl said:

Ignoring the problem does not make it go away.

It's not a problem. Only you and the OP think it's a problem. If it was such a big issue, you'd see the forums flooded with threads about it every single day on a constant basis, like how the Destiny community spammed their subreddit with the Remove Eververse threads. < That right there is a real issue. 

On 14/03/2018 at 5:00 AM, Midrib said:

The slippery slope, "If maiming gets nerfed DE is going to go after our Equinox & Octavia or maybe even go after our Lenz & Zarr."

Yes. It is a very slippery slope that the OP is putting forward. If good range and getting kills is what annoys him, then by Earth logic he should be hating on all these things as well. Nerf any ranged weapons, Nerf AOE frames. Nerf anything that is capable of taking out at least three enemies in one go. What's the point in going after this one thing that is quite frankly out-classed by quite a few other builds like Status or Hunter Munitions? It's because he does not care about balance. He only cares about having his vision of "the perfect public squad" realised. One without Maiming Strike specifically.

He more than likely has a preferred method of doing things that someone else might consider irritating, as do we all.

Also, there have been a lot of sound arguments against the OP, which include these points.

Edited March 15, 2018 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[(PSN)RankRancid]

Don't stress it man, when I was a newb I also always wanted things to be nerfed. 

[(PSN)RankRancid]

On 14/03/2018 at 9:47 AM, rune_me said:

Why would they compensate them? DE doesn't owe them anything. If you spend plat on Maiming Strike, that was your choice. In no way where you promised that it would never be altered or changed.

Why do they already compensate with formas when they nerf weapons? I don't have an answer but maybe they like having a player base?

[rune_me]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)RankRancid said:

Why do they already compensate with formas when they nerf weapons? I don't have an answer but maybe they like having a player base?

There's a world of difference between giving players a couple of formas when they decided to change almost every single primary weapon in the game, and then compensate someones platinum expenses because they change a single mod.

If you think DE is going to return players platinum, I think you're going to be disappointed.