so rhino can be a better tank than valkyr, makes sense.

[Borg1611]

I always felt they should remove the invulnerability of hysteria and give it damage reduction instead. You would't really need energy scaling over time if it's not invincibility, though it would still work better that way regardless since you could use rage while in hysteria potentially.

It never made sense to give her healing leech in a mode in which she's also invulnerable. It makes much more sense for her to actually take damage and then heal it back via her leech. /shrug

[Andaius]

12 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

I always felt they should remove the invulnerability of hysteria and give it damage reduction instead. You would't really need energy scaling over time if it's not invincibility, though it would still work better that way regardless since you could use rage while in hysteria potentially.

It never made sense to give her healing leech in a mode in which she's also invulnerable. It makes much more sense for her to actually take damage and then heal it back via her leech. /shrug

The Idea was she gets hurt, goes into a rage, where she ignores damage and recovers her HP by killing the enemies around her. IE berserker skill set.

[Kyoresh]

2 hours ago, (PS4)H3art_Th13f said:

due to it's weak damage doesn't kill the enemy

Valkyrs damage weak? Cmon...

[NezuHimeSama]

30 minutes ago, Andaius said:

The Idea was she gets hurt, goes into a rage, where she ignores damage and recovers her HP by killing the enemies around her. IE berserker skill set.

Yeah but #*!% the meta. Making it invulnerability mode makes it hard to balance. Making it high DR allows it to be more easily balanced out.

It should provide resistance to status and knockdown, similar to augmented Inaros' chargeup 4, with a high damage reduction value, such as damage / 1.5/2/3/4 affected by power str.(easy to get /8 dr, aka 87.5% dr, possible to go higher, and multiplies with armor) That way, you can still get outpaced by high damage, but you can still shrug off hits without stopping the assault, and since each hit heals, as long as you're zerking out on something, the gravy train keeps on rolling.

It was the obvious solution, and tbqh, the only reason I can think of that DE didn't do it is that it was the obvious solution, and would have more or less solved the issue for good, which might provide less data on alternative solutions that they could use going forward.

[Andaius]

8 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

Yeah but #*!% the meta. Making it invulnerability mode makes it hard to balance. Making it high DR allows it to be more easily balanced out.

It should provide resistance to status and knockdown, similar to augmented Inaros' chargeup 4, with a high damage reduction value, such as damage / 1.5/2/3/4 affected by power str.(easy to get /8 dr, aka 87.5% dr, possible to go higher, and multiplies with armor) That way, you can still get outpaced by high damage, but you can still shrug off hits without stopping the assault, and since each hit heals, as long as you're zerking out on something, the gravy train keeps on rolling.

It was the obvious solution, and tbqh, the only reason I can think of that DE didn't do it is that it was the obvious solution, and would have more or less solved the issue for good, which might provide less data on alternative solutions that they could use going forward.

This way even with something like 95% DR with the way the game is scaling enemy weapon damage can still easily 1-2 shot her. Alot of the Life stealing warcray builds only survive because rage keeps your energy pool maxed while your doing insane melee damage that even fractions of it coming back are enough to take you from .01 to 100% in one tick.  So they balanced around being invincible, but your still effected by knockdowns, and have to keep a some what tactical mind about it with the energy drain and ring o' doom if you fail to extract yourself to a "safe" zone when your out of steam.

The Invincible method lets her REALLY tank compared to other frames with just DR or shield abilities that use HP bars themselves. Because Valkyr will be tanking long after Enemy waves 1 shot Rhino's Iron skin.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Andaius

[Shaw1996]

31 minutes ago, Andaius said:

This way even with something like 95% DR with the way the game is scaling enemy weapon damage can still easily 1-2 shot her. Alot of the Life stealing warcray builds only survive because rage keeps your energy pool maxed while your doing insane melee damage that even fractions of it coming back are enough to take you from .01 to 100% in one tick.  So they balanced around being invincible, but your still effected by knockdowns, and have to keep a some what tactical mind about it with the energy drain and ring o' doom if you fail to extract yourself to a "safe" zone when your out of steam.

The Invincible method lets her REALLY tank compared to other frames with just DR or shield abilities that use HP bars themselves. Because Valkyr will be tanking long after Enemy waves 1 shot Rhino's Iron skin.

There’s also enemies like Napalms which can melt even Mesa at lvl 120+ or just one shot her with shatter shield activated. There’s still so many brokenly annoying enemies in this game it’s not even funny.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Shaw1996

[Eirshy]

Iunno, Hysteria tanking looks fine to me:

 

Plus if you run an Eternal War build with any form of good lifesteal melee (Hikudo, Healing Return, Life Strike, or Exodia Might on a Stinging Thorn stanced dagger), you're looking at easily 6-7x EHP with sustain (bonus, you're also gonna have a similarly tanky smeeta/adarza backing you up thanks to links and Pack Leader).

Also, Hysteria still has invulns, you just have to make sure you clear the radius before you deactivate it- fairly easy- and you can keep the energy cost down by toggling it regularly.

Also Also, Rhino's a tanky support, not a tank. His 2 is good, but it's not even close to god mode.

 

Now if you'd stop looking at Mot Endurance like it means literally anything compared to Sortie 3 and Kuva Flood performance...

Edited March 22, 2018 by TheBlueJelly
borked formatting, just stripped the spoiler wrapper entirely :/

[Pizzarugi]

You can always bunker down and farm arcane energizes. It can proc while in hysteria for 100 extra energy each. If you get 2 4/4s installed, you should never have to leave hysteria.

Good luck.

[Shaw1996]

8 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You can always bunker down and farm arcane energizes. It can proc while in hysteria for 100 extra energy each. If you get 2 4/4s installed, you should never have to leave hysteria.

Good luck.

Didn't know Arcane Energize can make that big of a change with Hysteria.

[KnightCole]

12 hours ago, Varacal said:

but, but, but, rhino isnt a tank

He should be....

[NezuHimeSama]

17 hours ago, Shaw1996 said:

There’s also enemies like Napalms which can melt even Mesa at lvl 120+ or just one shot her with shatter shield activated. There’s still so many brokenly annoying enemies in this game it’s not even funny.

ShatterShield doesn't protect from Napalm fire or explosions. Only projectile or hitscan weapon collision.

18 hours ago, Andaius said:

This way even with something like 95% DR with the way the game is scaling enemy weapon damage can still easily 1-2 shot her. Alot of the Life stealing warcray builds only survive because rage keeps your energy pool maxed while your doing insane melee damage that even fractions of it coming back are enough to take you from .01 to 100% in one tick.  So they balanced around being invincible, but your still effected by knockdowns, and have to keep a some what tactical mind about it with the energy drain and ring o' doom if you fail to extract yourself to a "safe" zone when your out of steam.

The Invincible method lets her REALLY tank compared to other frames with just DR or shield abilities that use HP bars themselves. Because Valkyr will be tanking long after Enemy waves 1 shot Rhino's Iron skin.

Until you're going into lv250+ enemies with 3x damage boost, the 98%+ stackable total DR is probably going to be enough that the knockdown prevention and myriad of healing options available to players these days is plenty enough to allow her to facetank everything. And hey, if you need more, bring Gara and Trinity. Dat 99.98% dr.

[Andaius]

3 hours ago, NezuHimeSama said:

ShatterShield doesn't protect from Napalm fire or explosions. Only projectile or hitscan weapon collision.

Until you're going into lv250+ enemies with 3x damage boost, the 98%+ stackable total DR is probably going to be enough that the knockdown prevention and myriad of healing options available to players these days is plenty enough to allow her to facetank everything. And hey, if you need more, bring Gara and Trinity. Dat 99.98% dr.

Not really, Depending on how much face tanking and focus a Rhino gets He can go down pretty quickly even on Level 60-80 endless runs. I've seen it personally when running my Valkyr. A Valkyr will always beat out a rhino tanking by virtue of her not having a HP defined shield but a timed based one. Where Damage stacking means nothing.

[NezuHimeSama]

Yeah, but Rhino isn't a great facetank outside of the early game anyway. This and that are unrelated.

It's the difference between 6000~24000 hp + whatever HP you have in a pool you either keep until it dies, or ditch and try to replace situationally, vs 37000+ constantly regenerating HP pool.

[Shaw1996]

Life stealing health while not taking damage when the enemies start one shotting you until you turn off the ability vs. having Constant health while at the risk of getting one shot. Valkyr only have 150 shields and 740 health so DR would really help her?

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Rhino is quoted to be the heaviest frame in game. Of course he's tankier. Valkyr may have a low grade god mode, but she also has the ability for finishers, fast melee speed, and her low grade god mode is still a high grade dps mode. No problems here buddy.

Edited March 23, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Shaw1996]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Rhino is quoted to be the heaviest frame in game. Of course he's tankier. Valkyr may have a low grade god mode, but she also has the ability for finishers, fast melee speed, and her low grade god mode is still a high grade dps mode. No problems here buddy.

Also with Hysteria, you can spin to win and use Charge attacks unlike Exalted blade which blinds the enemy when sliding and have no charge attacks. Against Sentients at lvl 125, Valkyr have no problem killing them with her 4 alone. Chromatic Excal might do more damage but the lack of IPS makes Shattering impact useless and since Armor scales so fast and the sentients adapts to your damage, his Chromatic blade can fall off big time. Valkyr don't have to sacrifice IPS for a lot of damage so she can deal with 20 Conculyst at lvl 125 no problem with just her 4 since she can strip their armor with shattering impact just like with the Eidolons (Teralyst can be solo hysteria'd too but it's not recommended).

This is a video of lvl 120s and it do work against lvl 125s.

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Shaw1996

[NezuHimeSama]

57 minutes ago, Shaw1996 said:

Life stealing health while not taking damage when the enemies start one shotting you until you turn off the ability vs. having Constant health while at the risk of getting one shot. Valkyr only have 150 shields and 740 health so DR would really help her?

I mean, I just put up the numbers. I think you underestimate the DR. Hell, you could even throw quick thinking in there, since it's DR and not direct HP.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

Uhhh, Val prime was my go to frame until I got Birb prime a few days ago.

Rhino is good and all and I like the play style but Valkyr with Eternal war and something that replinishes energy on damage combined with the melee aura and the focus schools that increase melee and elemental, I have found nothing in this game I can't solo...yet...I'm newish and don't have all the mods you veterans have so that does limit some of my high tier engagements but I can solo most survival missions for 40 odd minutes before things start to get a bit too harsh... It doesn't hurt that I have my kavat modded to heal from my damage and heals me with it's damage.... Anyway... I've kept warcry going for around 28 minutes because of eternal war.. Valkyr is the best all around brawler in the game.

But is Rhino a better tank.... I would argue... Neither character is a tank.... Because a fundamental part of being a tank is being able to actually get the enemy to ignore other players and focus on you....  Which yes there is guardian derision where and when it works... But no...  They are both mostly for wading in and out of battle. Not for being the solitary focus of the battle...

[throwaway987654321]

Can people at least acknowledge that 15 energy per second is a stupid and unfriendly energy drain for Valkyr to have? That nearly made me quit the game as a new player, because this frame that I worked so hard to get the parts for and craft (as my first non-starter frame) turned out to be utterly useless in her one decent ability, as her 1 and 3 are useless, and her 2 has very little effect without heavy modding.  She's a very weak and unfriendly frame without endgame mods for both your frame and your melee weapon, along with the catalysts and reactor required to fit them. Rhino is a much simpler and much better frame in almost all regards, except his invincibility has a limit, which can be recast ad infinitum.

[Andaius]

23 minutes ago, Dawson1917 said:

Can people at least acknowledge that 15 energy per second is a stupid and unfriendly energy drain for Valkyr to have? That nearly made me quit the game as a new player, because this frame that I worked so hard to get the parts for and craft (as my first non-starter frame) turned out to be utterly useless in her one decent ability, as her 1 and 3 are useless, and her 2 has very little effect without heavy modding.  She's a very weak and unfriendly frame without endgame mods for both your frame and your melee weapon, along with the catalysts and reactor required to fit them. Rhino is a much simpler and much better frame in almost all regards, except his invincibility has a limit, which can be recast ad infinitum.

I definitely would say that! They all can be pretty useful, atleast I use them all to good effect when I play her.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

13 hours ago, Dawson1917 said:

Can people at least acknowledge that 15 energy per second is a stupid and unfriendly energy drain for Valkyr to have? That nearly made me quit the game as a new player, because this frame that I worked so hard to get the parts for and craft (as my first non-starter frame) turned out to be utterly useless in her one decent ability, as her 1 and 3 are useless, and her 2 has very little effect without heavy modding.  She's a very weak and unfriendly frame without endgame mods for both your frame and your melee weapon, along with the catalysts and reactor required to fit them. Rhino is a much simpler and much better frame in almost all regards, except his invincibility has a limit, which can be recast ad infinitum.

I can agree 15 Energy per second seems high (as does Mesa's Peacemaker - at least DE is being consistent with Alad themed Warframes having expensive 4th ability's)

 

I disagree with Valkyr's 1 & 3 being uselss.

I build almost exclusively for both Ripline and Prolonged Paralysis (Using WarCry as a large AoE enemy slow for Defense-oriented use and Hysteria only for Troubling emergency work) 

Being in Operator mode when Hysteria runs out of energy bypasses the delayed damage* (From my testing)

MoT Axi Survival - no warcry nor Hysteria even when reviving other players back when Quick-Thinking would stagger-lock(I am Nat Talent casting Prolonged Paralysis to avoid stagger and spam casting for CC) you to death before it was toned down in Update 21.7

^ Reduced the frequency that Quick-Thinking can stagger lock a player. This is actually undoing a buf fix where Quick Thinking wasn't staggering players as often as it was intended to, but this is the new intention now!

 

 

She can be played Arcane Energize or pizza-spam perma Hysteria, Run'N'Gun with Prolonged Paralysis (Great with AoE weapons with grouped up enemies), or Eternal War melee.

Versatile frame if willing to try non-standard builds and utilize other ability's than just Ultimate.

[Shaw1996]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

I can agree 15 Energy per second seems high (as does Mesa's Peacemaker - at least DE is being consistent with Alad themed Warframes having expensive 4th ability's)

 

I disagree with Valkyr's 1 & 3 being uselss.

I build almost exclusively for both Ripline and Prolonged Paralysis (Using WarCry as a large AoE enemy slow for Defense-oriented use and Hysteria only for Troubling emergency work) 

Being in Operator mode when Hysteria runs out of energy bypasses the delayed damage* (From my testing)

MoT Axi Survival - no warcry nor Hysteria even when reviving other players back when Quick-Thinking would stagger-lock(I am Nat Talent casting Prolonged Paralysis to avoid stagger and spam casting for CC) you to death before it was toned down in Update 21.7

^ Reduced the frequency that Quick-Thinking can stagger lock a player. This is actually undoing a buf fix where Quick Thinking wasn't staggering players as often as it was intended to, but this is the new intention now!

 

 

She can be played Arcane Energize or pizza-spam perma Hysteria, Run'N'Gun with Prolonged Paralysis (Great with AoE weapons with grouped up enemies), or Eternal War melee.

Versatile frame if willing to try non-standard builds and utilize other ability's than just Ultimate.

I wish I had a team in MOT that can last for 80 mins. I gotten close by myself in Normal MOT but I used a Maiming Strike Atterax Eternal War Valkyr. I do use prolonged Paralysis when i have to complete a Riven challenge that include Finishers unless i can't be seen doin it. If I have to kill bosses, I use my Hyseria build. The slide attacks of her Talons can do pretty serious damage with the right build on her.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Shaw1996

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Am 22.3.2018 um 05:36 schrieb Andaius:

Last time I played Valkyr She's still pretty good to me. Are you just refering to the energy drain vs. one time cast of Iron skin?

How so? Her only way to stay alive outside of hysteria is while constantly channeling life strike. Inside of hysteria, you need a literall crap load of energy cheats to deal with the high drain. Also inside of hysteria, she is the only exalted melee ability frame that is NOT able to benefit from Combo, Stealth as multiplier or CO, what significantly lowers her damage output in comparance, only to gain something other frames manage better, with no death penalty to compensate for it... i mean there sure is rhino but there is also *)nekros, who is able to stay alive with orbs, health conversion that provides armor at all times, his shadows that redirect aggro and shield of shadows that adds a 90% damage reduction on top. *)defy, that makes wukong near immortal. *) Cc, what includes excals blind on top of a permanent block reduction and life steal from afar. And the list goes on.

 

It gotta be noobs complaining about something seemingly obvious cause immortality per se isn't something unique to her.

[Shaw1996]

I know this is off topic and probably a bug with laggy host but if you go into hysteria, then deactivating, you would be stuck in hysteria’s Stance but you can still use your normal melee weapon but when you want to activate Hysteria again, you would be stuck in the casting phase. If you jump off the map while you are stuck, she would switch to her primary and swing her hands like if she’s in hysteria and you still get the life steal but the enemies would be able to kill you.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Shaw1996

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 3/23/2018 at 7:02 PM, Shaw1996 said:

I wish I had a team in MOT that can last for 80 mins. I gotten close by myself in Normal MOT but I used a Maiming Strike Atterax Eternal War Valkyr. I do use prolonged Paralysis when i have to complete a Riven challenge that include Finishers unless i can't be seen doin it. If I have to kill bosses, I use my Hyseria build. The slide attacks of her Talons can do pretty serious damage with the right build on her.

I can run 80+mins solo as Valkyr, just make sure to have Enemy Sense/Enemy Radar/Vigilante Pursuit

Prolonged Paralysis doesn't allow for Finishers for Riven chellenges, unless Ground finishers are counting towards Riven challenge. (In which case, that is me learning something new)*

Normal Paralysis or just Charge attack-Hysteria works for landing finishers any & everywhere.

Prolonged Paralysis pulling enemies all together and basically costing no energy pair extremely well with Hysteria Spin attack maximizing her inherently low-range melee attacks. Making it more efficient for actually killing enemies.

If Only Paralysis(Prolonged Paralysis) would pull flying drones down 🤣

 

As Valkyr is currently she still has very high no ability in-use Effective health pool. Making her Nullifier tankybif a player does not have a weapon or Operator to cheese Nullifiers.

Her Prolonged Paralysis was better than Rhino Stomp back when Stomp could not be recast unless all affected enemies were killed.

Valkyr deserves some ability to tweaks to rasie her quality of life.

Rip-line + Melee attack results in Animation-locl Wall Attack which is not combat fluid. (Really needs a new Augment ... Current Augment lost any merit when Rip-line received combo cast mechanic. Still not sure why it is not even an Exilus eligible mod as you cannot perform 4 Free Ripline cast attacks in the air as attacking with Ripline results in an animation that drops you to the floor versus using it as mobility.)

WarCry should be able to be recast, this would allow for it be reusable as an enemy Slow. (Stomp can be recast and affects more bosses including Eidolons...I have no words for DE's measure of Balance) Eternal War should then function more like Resonance Sonar, where each Melee kill can be a smaller range Enemy Slow or AoE enemy slow equal to the amount of time added to WarCry duration.

I feel normal Paralysis should add to the Melee hit counter on Valkyr or be able to be cast mid-melee combo like Volt's Speed. To keep melee combat fluid. (Also as noted earlier should ground drones)

Currently Paralysis knockback effect only Ragdolls dead bodies and does not Knock back/Ragdoll enemies like it used to. (Used to behave like a 360° Sonic Boom)**