Octavia and Ivara Trivialize the Game

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

9 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Costs way too much time in order to be effective in any case. Furthermore, Stinging Thorn opens enemies to finishers by default in one combo.

While i agree that wukong is super cheap since he cannot die unless you forget to recast defy every 5 minutes, nerfing defy would only put him into the very trash tier. He would need a full-on rework.

Oh i'm not arguing for a nerf.  Just pointing out to the person I quoted that wukong could also use covert lethality.

[Naqel]

6 hours ago, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

Upvote for you. Efficiency to completing the mission you embark on in this game is my greatest desire nowadays and conversely my interest in playing the game goes down as I get more efficient.

That's because going the Dynasty Warriors route has robbed the players of the ability to endure hardships.

Combat in warframe stops being exciting the moment you learn about bullet jump in the tutorial, and there's only so long that one-shot killing enemies that are several levels below you can provide entertainment.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

You don't need anything in this game? 

I wasn't arguing that Wukong doesn't cheese the game, but that Octavia in particular cheeses it more and by a far greater magnitude. Who cares if a frame can't die no matter how much it's shot, Octavia cannot be shot. Who cares if Wukong can kill level 150 enemies, Octavia can kill level 9,999 enemies. I'm not saying Wukong isn't overpowered in some aspects, just that Octavia is overpowered in virtually all aspects.

And furthermore, she requires absolutely no input from the player aside from occasional recasts and crouching.

You've misinterpreted my argument entirely.

Trivializing is usually used in reference to something you gain from doing said method in an easy fashion.  Since there are no scaling rewards that removes the physical/tangible gains.  Which leaves bragging rights for those who do endurance runs as a kind of competitive thing.  To which I already mentioned in my post here (not @ed you) that if you were going to discredit someones achievement based on their loadout that you're not a reasonable person (again in the general sense not specifically you.)

Beyond that there are several frames in the game who can "trivialize" the game in some aspects.  So if there really isn't anything to gain and it's not a thing mutually exclusive to a few frames why bring it up?  Octavia might not be directly shot at.  But she can still be shot/hurt.  auras and aoe attacks are a thing.  Octavia still can't cheese everything.  No frame can.  Again why bring it up?  Wukong can as well with cloud walk spam and a dagger with covert.  or stinging thorn stance.  Which means anyone technically can kill 9,999 enemies.

Casting and crouching is still more input from the player compared to a lot of the old press 4 to win abilities of the past before DE went on a rework spree.

I don't see an argument.  I see a personal distaste against a frame.  Which is fine.  I just don't see the point of going and making a deal out of it when it basically doesn't matter at all in any meaningful or impactful sense.

[DatDarkOne]

This topic contains enough salt to season banquets of food.  

While Ivara can do Survivals easily, she does have a problem defending kuva siphons solo.  While I don't know how Octavia does in Kuva, I do know that she's incredibly boring to play.  

[DeMonkey]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I don't see an argument.  I see a personal distaste against a frame.  Which is fine.  I just don't see the point of going and making a deal out of it when it basically doesn't matter at all in any meaningful or impactful sense.

I didn't? Someone queried why the OP wasn't complaining about Nidus and Wukong being undying so I explained that they don't trivialise content anywhere near as much as Octavia does.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

I didn't? Someone queried why the OP wasn't complaining about Nidus and Wukong being undying so I explained that they don't trivialise content anywhere near as much as Octavia does.

Then the fault is mine for assuming that you were on OP's side.  apologies.

[Music4Therapy]

The single most popular gamemode in the game is survival. These 2 frames trivialize said game mode and most others. A sponsored stream going for a record run placed a limit on themselves of "no ivara or octavia" because they also felt those frame make even rooms full of level 9000+ enemies trivial.

A sponsored team didn't choose frames because they didn't want to show everyone watching just how dumb this game can be if you pick Octavia, throw out a ball, then spam ctrl. Or pick Ivara and bring CL. They decided no one on planet Earth would want to watch either of those frames in a 10 hr survival run, and I agree.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

52 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

The single most popular gamemode in the game is survival. These 2 frames trivialize said game mode and most others. A sponsored stream going for a record run placed a limit on themselves of "no ivara or octavia" because they also felt those frame make even rooms full of level 9000+ enemies trivial.

A sponsored team didn't choose frames because they didn't want to show everyone watching just how dumb this game can be if you pick Octavia, throw out a ball, then spam ctrl. Or pick Ivara and bring CL. They decided no one on planet Earth would want to watch either of those frames in a 10 hr survival run, and I agree.

Popularity of a mode means nothing.  it's still not trivializing the game as a whole.

Entertainment factor while noted is again irrelevant.

Anyone who actually plays this game in at least a semi serious fashion knows just how silly/easy the game can be with tons of things in the game.  It's not like they're hiding some great secret.

[DatDarkOne]

I have a question for you OP.  What is your suggestion for resolving this supposedly issue?  

Please remember that Ivara has pretty much the most balanced and fair invisibility abilities in the game.  One with that is completely dependant on her energy.  With only two methods of gaining energy while it's active.  She also needs CL to kill those enemies at extremely high levels.  

I'm not really concerned about Octavia because I just don't like playing her.  

 

edit: I guess after this you will probably recommend Frost gets banned in defense missions next.  

Edited April 15, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[Bobtm]

Overall the core of this problem is caused almost entirely by Invisibility.  In that there's nothing that properly exists as a counter to it.

And this problem caused by invisibility can be fairly quickly and readily fixed by doing something that DE specifically said they were going to do on more than one occasion and then never did;

• Give each faction a way to route out Invisible players.

There have been a few times that this has been brought up.  One such occasion spoke on giving the Grineer's own crazy cat lady a way to detect and possibly even mark those players.  Allowing other enemies to potentially target those players through their invisibility.

It'll be a bit tough for some folks to cope at first without a doubt.  But it's one of these kinds of changes that simply needs to be addressed in a "rip the bandaid off" style.  The Corpus rollerblader units already could suit this role well but they're so insanely rare of an enemy unit overall.  They also do need a few minor improvements, mainly a visual cue added to their audio cue, so folks can better understand their range.

The Leech Ospreys can even be adapted to this, have their little drone attachments just full-stop ignore any form of Invisibility.  Then, when attached, have their leeching effect drop that player's Duration stat so that they either lose their buffs faster (Octavia/Loki/Ash) or increases their energy drain rate (Ivara).  As well as dropping the player's efficiency stat temporarily too.

The Grineer animal handling units are an obvious option to have these kinds of anti-Invis traits for their own faction.  I sort of almost like the idea of letting Infested Maggots or similar units do this for the Infested faction.  Sniffing out and finding any hidden entities for their flesh to consume.

If an Invisible player has a foil to watch out for, it makes that player pay more attention and punishes them if they fail to acknowledge, react to, and counter that foe.  The other side of this coin is ensuring that this foil can be countered if the Invisible player is attentive and capable.  A design that creates a reason for engagement and allows a player to be powerful if they are engaged in play.

[DatDarkOne]

8 minutes ago, Bobtm said:

And this problem caused by invisibility can be fairly quickly and readily fixed by doing something that DE specifically said they were going to do on more than one occasion and then never did;

• Give each faction a way to route out Invisible players.

 

I have no problems with this idea.  I've even said in the past a few times that this very thing should have been done.  

Something to note: Infested kinda already have something like this in place to counter invisibility.  The poison osprey have a tendency to fart their clouds without being fully alerted. 

Edited April 15, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[Vanrythzx]

does anyone realise that people who are doing those very long runs, are also equipped to the teeth? how long did they grind for the stuff they have, until they could go this far? they put no effort in the game right? just bought the frame and gogo, right? this thread is pointless. 

[Vanrythzx]

dbl post somehow

Edited April 15, 2018 by Vanrythzx

[sixmille]

The problem is that realistically, the devs can't directly nerf stealth for pure public relations reasons. Imagine the drama if you tell people they can't just AFK and watch youtube while the game plays itself... On the other hand, they could totally have enemies with true sight abilities making stealth less of a "click 2 sit and relax". Stealth should be situational not a universal solution to any challenge, i agree, but a "nerf" has to be subtle to be accepted.

Edited April 15, 2018 by sixmille

[Music4Therapy]

4 hours ago, Bobtm said:

Overall the core of this problem is caused almost entirely by Invisibility.  In that there's nothing that properly exists as a counter to it.

And this problem caused by invisibility can be fairly quickly and readily fixed by doing something that DE specifically said they were going to do on more than one occasion and then never did;

• Give each faction a way to route out Invisible players.

This whole post is gold.

 

4 hours ago, Vanrythzx said:

does anyone realise that people who are doing those very long runs, are also equipped to the teeth? how long did they grind for the stuff they have, until they could go this far? they put no effort in the game right? just bought the frame and gogo, right? this thread is pointless. 

Have you done a run like that yourself?  Because I have. Many times. Its the niche I fall into in Warframe. Many players did so in the tower days as well. You don't need to be geared to the teeth. People have been doing these kinds of runs for years, before riven mods or acolyte mods even existed. You know what removes any and all sense of accomplishment from the game? When a bunch of people that clearly have zero experience doing these longer runs think some dude going 8+hrs solo in a mission is normal.

I remember when someone going 60 minutes in a survival or that many waves in Defense/Interception/etc... was considered to be "difficult" lol.

5 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Popularity of a mode means nothing.  it's still not trivializing the game as a whole.

Entertainment factor while noted is again irrelevant.

Anyone who actually plays this game in at least a semi serious fashion knows just how silly/easy the game can be with tons of things in the game.  It's not like they're hiding some great secret.

Yet they wonder why the average person that plays Warframe only sticks around for 70hrs. There's no sense of accomplishment you get from this game because it's broken with ease. Even players hosting an event sponsored by DE have to handicap themselves by not choosing Ivara or Octavia in there missions are tell people several times throughout the stream "if you guys go to break the record don't do it by cheesing it with Ivara or Octavia"

Then making fun of the current survival record of an Ivara that solo'd for 14 hours.

There is zero sense of accomplishment to be had in this game and that should be seen as an issue by the dev team.

 

4 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I have a question for you OP.  What is your suggestion for resolving this supposedly issue?  

Please remember that Ivara has pretty much the most balanced and fair invisibility abilities in the game.  One with that is completely dependant on her energy.  With only two methods of gaining energy while it's active.  She also needs CL to kill those enemies at extremely high levels.  

I'm not really concerned about Octavia because I just don't like playing her.  

 

edit: I guess after this you will probably recommend Frost gets banned in defense missions next.

Either one of 2 things:

1) I'd make all stealth units have the same movement restrictions as Ivara and remove Ivara's ability to steal Life Support. Loki and Ash may have to actually use their teleports to get around if this were the case and Ivara wouldn't be able to cheese endless missions aside from defense anymore. Octavia would receive a rework to her kit so that she no longer provided invis but gained something else in return. 

2) Still take stealth from Octavia and give her something else in return (she plays loud music, wtf is she even a stealth frame), but give all enemies "detection radiuses"... FE being within 5m of a Lancer would result in you dropping stealth and your stealth being placed on a short CD similar to Radial Blind from Excal.

Similar to Bobtm's suggestion above.

And I don't think Frost is anywhere close to OP, the only time I felt that way about Frost was when his bubble used to be duration based. Volt's is duration based but has the weakness of not providing 360 degrees of cover and over the top protection. I did think release Gara was an issue, and that they nerfed her too hard. Her walls should have an invincibility period like Frost's globe.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Music4Therapy

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, Music4Therapy said:

1) I'd make all stealth units have the same movement restrictions as Ivara and remove Ivara's ability to steal Life Support. Loki and Ash may have to actually use their teleports to get around if this were the case and Ivara wouldn't be able to cheese endless missions aside from defense anymore. 

Why am I not surprised that you completely missed the reasons she's able to go so long in Survivals.  Her stealing life support isn't even needed to still be one of the top two in Survivals.  

I recommend that you do more research on something before you demand changes.  I say this because your response either ignores things or shows lack of understanding on why something works.  

[(XBOX)Artakka]

3 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

You know what removes any and all sense of accomplishment from the game? When a bunch of people that clearly have zero experience doing these longer runs think some dude going 8+hrs solo in a mission is normal.

I remember when someone going 60 minutes in a survival or that many waves in Defense/Interception/etc... was considered to be "difficult" lol.

Yet they wonder why the average person that plays Warframe only sticks around for 70hrs. There's no sense of accomplishment you get from this game because it's broken with ease. Even players hosting an event sponsored by DE have to handicap themselves by not choosing Ivara or Octavia in there missions are tell people several times throughout the stream "if you guys go to break the record don't do it by cheesing it with Ivara or Octavia"

Then making fun of the current survival record of an Ivara that solo'd for 14 hours.

There is zero sense of accomplishment to be had in this game

You say that new players think going 8+ hours solo In a survival is normal, but I'd like to see them try. Also, did you ever consider that maybe the sense of accomplishment from this game is actually GETTING to the point to where you can do an 8+ hour solo? In a game like warframe, your "sense of accomplishment" comes from getting the best gear (aka gear you think suits you best) slapping on your hard earned mods (which you need to do these long survivals, and new players won't have them), and then going to town. It's funny you say Octavia and Ivara trivialize the game, but I see rhinos and Lokis more than I do them. And that's even in high level missions. Besides, you're supposed to feel powerful. This isn't destiny, where you spend 20 minutes in each mission, this is warframe, a game that allows you to become as powerful as YOU allow yourself to be.

[NinthAria]

Why are we trying to balance the game around 8-hour survival runs exactly?

[Music4Therapy]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

Why am I not surprised that you completely missed the reasons she's able to go so long in Survivals.  Her stealing life support isn't even needed to still be one of the top two in Survivals.  

I recommend that you do more research on something before you demand changes.  I say this because your response either ignores things or shows lack of understanding on why something works.  

No, you are the one that doesn't understand. The fact that she is able to avoid enemies via the combined use of stealth and CC whilst being able to 1 shot enemies with CL while producing extra Life Capsules similar to Nekros IS the reason why she goes for so long. I've done these missions *many* times. 10 hour survivals. 110 wave defenses. 40k cryo runs. I've tested so much within this game. And when people go to do a mission Ivara and Octavia are ALWAYS mentioned as frames we should bring due to how incredible of a utility stealth is not to mention the ability to make extra loot drop such as Energy for Excavators or Life Capsules for Life Support.

[Music4Therapy]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)Young Boy HT said:

You say that new players think going 8+ hours solo In a survival is normal, but I'd like to see them try. Also, did you ever consider that maybe the sense of accomplishment from this game is actually GETTING to the point to where you can do an 8+ hour solo? In a game like warframe, your "sense of accomplishment" comes from getting the best gear (aka gear you think suits you best) slapping on your hard earned mods (which you need to do these long survivals, and new players won't have them), and then going to town. It's funny you say Octavia and Ivara trivialize the game, but I see rhinos and Lokis more than I do them. And that's even in high level missions. Besides, you're supposed to feel powerful. This isn't destiny, where you spend 20 minutes in each mission, this is warframe, a game that allows you to become as powerful as YOU allow yourself to be.

No matter how well geared you are you aren't going 8+hrs solo in a survival without either 1: 1) A way to produce extra life support, 2) A way to prevent yourself from being hit/touched, 3) A way to kill enemies ad nauseum incredibly fast to maintain a high KPS (kills per second) to keep up life support. Normally you need a squad to meet these requirements. 

Stealth fills requirement number 2. Ivara can use CL to quickly dispose of any enemy of any level, Octavia produces a ball which draws all fire from enemies in the area and returns it back to them making her excellent in defense/survival/etc.. and thus giving her a massive, scaling aoe. Ivara also produces extra Life Support and can stealth Objectives.

They are both capable of being a whole squad by themselves. It's the reason why you don't see any other frames pulling off these kinds of accomplishments.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Music4Therapy

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

No, you are the one that doesn't understand. The fact that she is able to avoid enemies via the combined use of stealth and CC whilst being able to 1 shot enemies with CL while producing extra Life Capsules similar to Nekros IS the reason why she goes for so long. I've done these missions *many* times. 10 hour survivals. 110 wave defenses. 40k cryo runs. I've tested so much within this game. And when people go to do a mission Ivara and Octavia are ALWAYS mentioned as frames we should bring due to how incredible of a utility stealth is not to mention the ability to make extra loot drop such as Energy for Excavators or Life Capsules for Life Support.

All that and you still didn't address what i said in either of my posts.  

BobTm is the only one who came up with a suggestion that's worthwhile.  A suggestion that I myself have been saying for over a year now.

So far your suggestion is to remove an aspect of one of her powers and then nerf the hell out of two other frames that aren't even connected to long survivals.  Removal of Prowl's steal won't stop jack shyte.  I know because I don't depend on the steals from Prowl at all.  Haven't depended on it in the two years of playing almost nothing but Ivara. 

The only way you will be able to stop Ivara from being one of the two top survival frames would be to nerf no less than two of her abilities.  The Stealing already got a nerf and it hasn't changed her solo ability in the slightest.  

[Dark_RRiderr]

Invisibility fixing all problems, sure thats why i would take Loki for Hijack missions (hint, i dont...) or why he is the best choice defending an Objective alone just with stealth (Yeah you can use your decoy but on higher levels how long does that laste if all enemys fire at it and you need to recast over and over again until your energy is down or forget to recast stealth or whatever. Or protecting the defectors with making them beeing the only targets if you are stealthed... (yeah decoy, again on higher level wont work to long)

Maybe, to fix the stealth "issue" they can make enemys should somewhere on random directions, if they dont use silencers they could aim anywhere near the last sound of a gunshot of the stealthed tenno (just not TO accurate, but that there is a chance of beeing hit, which with more and more hits results in your invisibility not making you invul anymore)

Dont get me wrong, i LOVE stealthy gameplay and beeing invisible and all, fits my style of striking down from the shadows if noone expects it.

Still cant hurt adding a little bit of challange there with enemys not acting like they didnt knew there was someone invisible that just shot down there comrade. Some people might remember AVP games? (Alien vs Predator) If you were invisible as Predator sometimes the enemys go crazy just shooting around in all directions and often even hit you with it. Something alike that wont hurt. (Just wont see any corpus MOAs act out of panic, would be more logical for Grineer acting like this, maybe even some corpus crewman or other non MOA like units) In Kuva Fortress there are usually so many Grineer that if all of them just spray and pray inside a corridor where they suspect an invisible unit/tenno then this should help already to search for cover yourself if you are using stealth.

Scaling.... mh, what if the enemys would be scaling about acting more clever? Like the method mentioned above against stealthed units becoming more and more an option for enemys beeing closer to level 100 and above. Maybe they could make them scale in other ways as well. Like the higher they are in level the more often they use cover stay behind it and use suppression fire against high damage dealer enemys / tennos. They could also start to be using more grenades behind cover, like beeing behind wall and only throwing the grenade out so they dont get hit. That plus having a very small chance (which gets higher and higher if they are above level 100) of some single enemys just ignoring your tricks of decoy, mallet ect and everything else you can use to make them shoot a different target instead of you. Think that would be far more effecktive raising the difficulty then just making them do more damage and having more health and armor alone.

[Music4Therapy]

18 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

All that and you still didn't address what i said in either of my posts.  

BobTm is the only one who came up with a suggestion that's worthwhile.  A suggestion that I myself have been saying for over a year now.

So far your suggestion is to remove an aspect of one of her powers and then nerf the hell out of two other frames that aren't even connected to long survivals.  Removal of Prowl's steal won't stop jack shyte.  I know because I don't depend on the steals from Prowl at all.  Haven't depended on it in the two years of playing almost nothing but Ivara. 

The only way you will be able to stop Ivara from being one of the two top survival frames would be to nerf no less than two of her abilities.  The Stealing already got a nerf and it hasn't changed her solo ability in the slightest.  

Then perhaps look at the 2nd suggestion I made which would give all enemies varying detection radiuses.

And no, her stealing was nerfed enough. It takes just over 1 second to steal and item, easy to do so following a Sleep Arrow, and has a 100% chance of success. Even Nekros's desecrate has only a 54% chance of success.

Anyone with a keyboard/controller is capable of doing 565 waves of defense and/or 14 hours of survival, or anything else, with Ivara. Enemy spawns start spazzing out around ~8hrs into a run. Sometimes earlier, sometimes later. Which is why the extra loot drops are near necessary to progress

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Music4Therapy

[DatDarkOne]

10 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

It takes just over 1 second to steal and item, easy to do so following a Sleep Arrow, and has a 100% chance of success.

The speed of the steal is dependent on Duration stat while the steal chance is on power strength.  Depending on the build, you aren't guaranteed anything or the speed.  

10 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Enemy spawns start spazzing out around ~8hrs into a run. Sometimes earlier, sometimes later. Which is why the extra loot drops are near necessary to progress

And then how is Octavia getting around that issue if extra drops are a must have.  

10 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Then perhaps look at the 2nd suggestion I made which would give all enemies varying detection radiuses.

Uhhh, NO.  That suggestion would make Invisibility not an ability at all.  BobTM's  suggestion is much better because it gives Stealth players something to look out for if they want to not alert the map.  Same way we already have to with Combas on corpus maps. 

 

Edit:  Just admit that you really made this topic out of spite, and we can all have a good laugh.  

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[Music4Therapy]

6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

And then how is Octavia getting around that issue if extra drops are a must have.  

She doesn't. That's why Ivara can go 14hrs and Octavia's highest recorded run is 8. As soon as the spawns start to bug out her KPS drops and she is forced to leave. Still, 8hrs is a remarkable accomplishment. You thinking their kits are not overloaded deserves a laugh.

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Music4Therapy