[22.20.5] Spores Revisited Feedback MEGATHREAD

[DjKaplis]

Post Scriptum.

 

Please add "dislike" function for posts on forums as there seems to be quite many toxic people around or some people who probably haven't properly tested or don't know enough about many things in game.

Currently our only way to express a different opinion is to engage in long text-wall discussions that most of the time make no sense. And many sensible players don't feel like wasting a lot of their time by doing so.

[Reclaimer2448]

@[DE]Danielle@[DE]Pablo
 

Although I was hoping more would change, the latest rework to her Spores and Miasma does make me happy that I am seeing progress to more enjoyable spore use. I'd like to give my input on these changes as well as suggest more ideas for future changes. If this is formatted in an annoying fashion, I apologize in advance: I don't forums much.

Spores Input

• Spores decay change: I don't have any positive or negative feelings or comments on this change; I am simply confused by it. I saw many other posts mentioning the decay rate being too high (which I personally disagree with), so I would think this change would be intended to lower the decay rate, but isn't Spores decaying by 10%/sec in 2 increments every second effectively the same as Spores decaying 10%/sec fluidly?
• Spores staying on enemies as they are corrupted: This fix was quite satisfying, and it is very much appreciated. No longer will I be constantly frustrated with disappearing spores as I farm out my relics.
• Spores guaranteed to spread when killing enemies with sickness: This sounded super effective to me, and I was quite surprised to find that I still yield the same results in Elite Onslaught when utilizing this tactic. It's something that I feel should have been here since the removal of Spores spreading on it's kills, and I am glad to see it added.
• Spores guaranteed to spread on death of whom it's cast upon: I'm definitely glad this is here as it makes initial spread easier, but I still wish Spores just spread when it killed people in general. I know you've probably heard that many times by now and it's probably annoying at this point, but let me share why I loved that so much. In the days of early Saryn 3.0 and all that of Saryn 2.0, there was something so joyous we could do. Something I can't be alone in doing, which I always called the death wave. I would cast spores on a weak enemy, and if need be, smack it to help the initial spread. Then, just watch as a chain reaction of deaths flows across a line or cluster of foes before me, numbers of affinity filling the edges of the screen. It put a smile on my face every time. It was nice in higher levels too, but not really a death wave.

Miasma Input

• Increased duration and lowered damage: A logical buff to me, very clear to see how it's supposed to help Spores spread. It does seem to spread them very effectively.
• Lowered energy cost: I like not having to spend as much energy and even spawning in non-Onslaught missions with enough energy to use Miasma (I have low efficiency), but most of the time this doesn't really change anything for me. Maybe I'm just an outlier, but I don't usually have energy problems with Saryn. As long as I take enough damage and kill Parasitic Eximus fast enough, I'm all good.

Armor Buff: It's not really noticeable for me, but as armor buffs tend to, I'm sure it's helping me more than I realize.

Damage types: Since I'm seeing people comment on corrosive procs being worse for spores and wanting viral procs back, I'd like to mention that I personally prefer corrosive procs as they are more permanent and viral procs on Miasma always seemed like a great idea to me.

General: Despite the changes that were made, Saryn somehow doesn't really feel that different since the Spore rework before this one, with the exception of Spores not effecting people being corrupted.

Ideas for Spores if spread on Spore kill can come back: Do any combination of the following (even if it's all of them, because it's still worth it):

• Have spores spread at half radius on spore kill or reduce base spread radius to 75% of it's current and have spores spread 100% of that 75% radius on spore kill
• Reduce the growth of damage
• Increase decay
• Apply a unique duration. I shared this idea earlier, but in case that post was missed, it went as follows (with added sidenotes I thought of after I made that post): Instead of a duration on each spore, do a duration across all the spores much like the damage is across all the spores. I think a good duration is probably somewhere from 50%-75% of the duration of Spores seen in Saryn 2.0. Duration is reset every time Spores is recast, or spores are spread. Perhaps it could even be taken a step further and the spores have to infect someone who previously wasn't infected to reset the duration. Once the duration hits zero, Spores begins to decay and damage growth halts. Spores still damage and proc enemies as it decays. Or maybe they shouldn't, and they just sit there temporarily dormant? Once the Saryn recasts Spores or spreads the spores on someone, the duration is reset, resuming damage growth and halting decay.
• Reduce the base proc rate (probably to a minimum of 30% instead of 50%)

Spores damage growth: I know this wasn't changed in this last update to Saryn, but the cap of growth being when 10 enemies are infected feels a bit sad to me. I think if the growth rate is halved and the cap removed, it would greater reward infecting many hosts. Although this does mean someone could theoretically infect 100 foes, it would be highly unlikely as infecting more and more enemies becomes exponentially difficult. It has always made me sad to look at my Spores gauge, see "39 infected enemies," and remember that only 10 of them are actually contributing to damage growth.

 

I hope at least part of this was helpful in someway, and if any of this seems unclear or my ideas present other problems, I would gladly clarify and/or try to come up with said problems. I very much want Saryn's spores to be able to work with spread on Spore kill as it was quite a large factor of her fun. With that in mind, I do want to say I don't find Saryn to be boring. I do still enjoy her, but I do so significantly less than I did in the past.

[SyBuhr]

6 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

Post Scriptum.

 

Please add "dislike" function for posts on forums as there seems to be quite many toxic people around or some people who probably haven't properly tested or don't know enough about many things in game.

Currently our only way to express a different opinion is to engage in long text-wall discussions that most of the time make no sense. And many sensible players don't feel like wasting a lot of their time by doing so.

I haven't actually seen a super-toxic post in this thread/discussion. Maybe I missed something along the way?

I know I write out huge paragraphs, generally explaining my thoughts and reasoning behind them.

I don't know if a "Dislike" function would help prevent "sensible players" from viewing a huge block of text, because that implies just disliking what the poster wrote based upon a subjective stance. I think a better term/function is flagging a post/reply with something along the lines of "Derailing the topic", and the like, rather than suggesting to other players that the person in quesion's opinion is highly disliked for ambiguous reasons.

I'd also be curious to see what sensible players wouldn't read the posts, and then feel like their time is wasted. Even though I've read the majority of posts here, I've only chose to quickly scroll through the others once I got the basic gist of what they were conveying, which I see no reason why other individuals could not potentially do the same.

Lastly, I am curious as to how this all relates to the Saryn Re-work in a means to constructively make Saryn better. This post seems more of a "Quality of Life" suggestions for the forums, rather than a constructive idea for a recently reworked frame.

[SyBuhr]

10 hours ago, KyrusDarkstrider said:

Can you (or anyone really) explain this? I think I came after Ember got redone. I do however find ember to be in a better state than Saryn however if she was downgraded. While Ember is an energy hog, she's manageable. Saryn is resource light, but completely unmanageable

When Ember got reworked, her World on Fire got drastically altered. The longer it was active, the more energy it drained, and the smaller the range became, with an increase in Heat damage (Spoilers: It doesn't scale very well). Originally, Ember could fore-go power strength, go for Duration and Range, get the Firequake augment, and could essentially become a great and viable Crowd-Control frame. This is why Ember is now an energy hog more-so than she was prior. There were several other changes, but they elude me right now, and I am sure someone more experienced with Ember could fill in a bit.

Saryn is also a bit more energy hungry now, as Spores do not spread when they kill (which will happen more often now, due to how the damage scales and the damage type), forcing you to either combo with Miasma (@ 75 base energy) or Toxic Lash (@ 50 base energy). Without any mods for additional energy, she has roughly 300 or so energy. For the most optimal spreads, you would cast Spore, then Miasma to guarantee spore spreads.

Before, you didn't need to do any of that during her 2.0 time frame; You could cast spore once, pop it by either killing the enemy or hitting the spores, and watch the spores slowly but surely debuff everything around with viral. Now, Spores do corrosive with a damage ramp up based on amount of enemies afflicted, not based on the enemy level, and so they will always ultimately end up killing everything too quickly, ending your spree at some point. Even with a low amount of Power Strength, it doesn't take very long for spores to begin killing enemies too quickly for me to hit them with Toxic Lash, forcing me to use Miasma, at 75 energy a use.

The design change is then, really simple to view: She went from being a debuff frame, who could dish out some good damage on the side, to becoming a pure DPS frame. I've already expressed my thoughts on that quite enough in this thread, so I'll leave it at that.

TL;DR : Ember used to be really good for crowd control with a certain augment, but then DE reworked her and it didn't turn out too well, and now it isn't worth using her for CC or damage, due to her element type being fire with no real scaling. There-fore, Saryn isn't ember'd just yet, but she could potentially become so in the future, depending on the direction Warframe (as a game) goes in the future.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

12 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

TL;DR : Ember used to be really good for crowd control with a certain augment, but then DE reworked her and it didn't turn out too well, and now it isn't worth using her for CC or damage, due to her element type being fire with no real scaling. There-fore, Saryn isn't ember'd just yet, but she could potentially become so in the future, depending on the direction Warframe (as a game) goes in the future.

You're not wrong.

My opinion though? She's basically being ember'd. Two of my favorite frames. Her ability range is being overall nerfed despite a good amount of feedback on this forum. 

From this though... once this update hits on consoles, I'll try it. But I doubt I'll like it. Saryn was the last frame keeping me in warframe because my favorite damage type is poison. If it feels bad, I can't do it. 

No more warframe until it's fixed. If it doesn't... I don't guess I'll play it anymore. 

For those who say, "quit whining and get used to it! It's not bad! Don't be lazy!" 

Lemme preface those arguments with: this is a feedback forum. 

The only thing keeping me playing warframe was saryn. No amount of new content can keep someone around if the reason they play isn't around. And those comments about being lazy? Many of my posts give a different way to use saryn that isn't lazy, but wouldn't break her. She wouldn't be tedious, and she would work fine in low level missions. 

Go find those if you're interested.

Anyway. I hope it's every bit as good as you say it is.

If not... customers pay with their feet.

And I'm no different. 

[DjKaplis]

16 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

This post seems more of a "Quality of Life" suggestions for the forums, rather than a constructive idea for a recently reworked frame.

Yes. It is a quality of life for forums and for DE to get better feedback of how much some ideas are liked / disliked. That could be quite helpful.

Sure this idea is a bit off-topic, that's why I wrote it under "post scriptum" after my feedback on Saryn.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

you might wanna go under a different thread name for that

[SyBuhr]

8 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

Yes. It is a quality of life for forums and for DE to get better feedback of how much some ideas are liked / disliked. That could be quite helpful.

Sure this idea is a bit off-topic, that's why I wrote it under "post scriptum" after my feedback on Saryn.

Why an idea is disliked isn't too helpful, however, due to there being no context on why it is exactly disliked. I could have the fix-all-solution, with one sentence that doesn't resonate with the majority of people, and it could be disliked just for that sentence. This is why people generally quote and state what they feel in response to certain other points where it may not resonate with them, where-as if you just dislike something, it doesn't offer you that. It then essentially offers an opportunity for a mass of people to dislike something based on no other merit than "I don't like what he wrote at paragraph 3, sentence 5". Where-as with the likes (which we have, but I don't personally care for, but do use from time to time), you are liking the entirety of that post, word-for-word. You don't need any further context, or verbose messages in regards to that, where-as if you dislike something stated, you should (keyword, should) always offer an alternative to what was stated.

In my opinion then, it is very rare for someone to dislike the entirety of a post word-for-word, because there is usually some middle ground that people generally reach, and at that point, disliking (and even liking it, in this regard) becomes more or less a popularity contest. It makes more sense then, to state in a reply what you think might be better than what someone else has stated, and offer constructive debate towards that. This is actually healthy when done properly (keyword, properly), and can really promote growth for the development team, the hypothetical yourself, and the hypothetical group or others. To me, it seems like a superfluous thing, but I do understand and respect your stance on the matter. I think the other Emoji-things (I have no idea what you'd call them, but they are the alternatives to "Like, Woah, Upvote" etc.) are okay because they express more of a mental state with the comment read, rather than what resonates with the majority and how it has resonated. With liking, you can essentially just leave it at that, but with disliking and down-voting, it almost begs a user to craft an alternative to keep the discussion from stagnating into oblivion. That itself, can also be a difficult thing to do, because people (myself included), can and often will take things more seriously than we ought to.

If you do feel strongly about it, I'd recommend also posting that in the Suggestions section somewhere, because it could become a reality, given that most Social-based sites and forums utilize a function of Like & Dislike.

12 hours ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

You're not wrong.

My opinion though? She's basically being ember'd. Two of my favorite frames. Her ability range is being overall nerfed despite a good amount of feedback on this forum. 

From this though... once this update hits on consoles, I'll try it. But I doubt I'll like it. Saryn was the last frame keeping me in warframe because my favorite damage type is poison. If it feels bad, I can't do it. 

No more warframe until it's fixed. If it doesn't... I don't guess I'll play it anymore. 

For those who say, "quit whining and get used to it! It's not bad! Don't be lazy!" 

Lemme preface those arguments with: this is a feedback forum. 

The only thing keeping me playing warframe was saryn. No amount of new content can keep someone around if the reason they play isn't around. And those comments about being lazy? Many of my posts give a different way to use saryn that isn't lazy, but wouldn't break her. She wouldn't be tedious, and she would work fine in low level missions. 

Go find those if you're interested.

Anyway. I hope it's every bit as good as you say it is.

If not... customers pay with their feet.

And I'm no different. 

I'll break some things down really quickly:

• She's shifted from being the Debuff frame we used to have (with viral and toxic), to a Corrosive damage frame, whose damage scales (up to a maximum of 10) with infected enemies (spore).
• She can no longer just have spores out indefinitely; They will die out eventually, even if you do optimal spreading with toxic lash.
• Low to Mid Level missions are pointless to use spores, and forces you to use Miasma for 75 energy.
• High Level missions will see extensive use of Spores, and little else.
• Allies have to shoot the spores to spread them, they do not spread when allies kill (from what I have tested and seen).
• Her spores last forever, ensuring you the kill on your target(s).

It's a massive shift in her kit, which I don't personally care for. That doesn't mean you will pick her up and not like her. If you like a lot of damage, and are okay with her being sub-par in Open-world areas, as an exchange for her becoming a DPS-only frame, you should be okay.

She relies a bit more on allies, spawns, and tiles now than she did previously. She'll either have all of the kills, or very few, and that is just dependent on yourself, the tiles, the spawns, and your team now. As a DPS frame, you'll find yourself competing against other players who also play DPS-focused frames. I've only had staggering success with her in onslaught, but I can't say I enjoyed it. To me, Saryn will always be perfect during her 2.0 time-frame, because it filled a role no other frame could.

If none of those things appeal to you, all I have to say is go in with a relatively open-mind, and give her a solid go. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[Traumtulpe]

A little update after a lot more playtime with the new Saryn: She is crazy strong and versatile. Any problems with Saryn being weak or not functioning well under any circumstances are a problem with the build.

She is different now, but the truth is: She is simply better. Play around with different builds - she plays very distinctly with different mods.

Thanks to Pablo for the rework, and sorry for the negative feedback you have gotten for your efforts.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Traumtulpe

[Acos]

Seems really balanced to me! 👍

Tested with Ignis (gas build), with a range of 235% and an efficiency of 160%. 

To be kind of fair, she is very much hyper specialized towards onslaught. Normal gameplay has lulls in combat that means her spore decay kicks in more normally which naturally curbs her endless damage growth. She can be built very tanky and still retain a super high level of DPS since spores really aren't affected by power strength very dramatically. However, since she lacks a good hard crowd control, eventually she'll get focused down and killed even going full tank mode and I find she's a lot easier to play as a glass cannon by just pairing her up with a frame who is halfway decent at CC (Nyx, Nova, Rhino, whoever.) 

Gut feeling: She seems kind of overpowered for onslaught, she's probably fine everywhere else.  

Edited June 4, 2018 by Acos

[Ikusias]

Final feedback on Saryn reworks:

NOT WORTH IT

All this mess did was polarize the playerbase, make her extremely unfriendly to the party at large in perfect conditions (ESO), give a kick in the groin to anyone that wasn't using memeing strike and molt turret and waste a ton of time and manpower fixing a frame that needed simply a numerical tweak on a single interaction between its powers to rein in her powercreep.

We got Khora as a mediocre MR fodder while all this time could have been invested on her!

New Saryn playstyle while more involved feels like a chore instead of fun, the frame itself was completely altered to the point that it's now a Saryn skin applied to a different thing.

That's not a rework, it's presenting a new frame as the old one.

Not even DE Pablo, the guy that wanted to revise her, is happy whit the results!

What were you guys thinking for hek's sake?!

Just reroll her back to her 2.0 powerset with the Qol improvements on toxic lash and molt and create a 2nd poisonous frame using the sphores and miasma of the rework and 2 new abilities, you already have done 90% of the work for a complete new frame as is, just don't insult players by insisting that's Saryn, please

Edited June 4, 2018 by Ikusias
fixed missing letters and cleande up convoluted sentences

[Acos]

NEW GUT FEELING: She's stupid easy. 

Fleeting Expertise + Zenurik gives you more than enough energy to just spam Miasma constantly at 235% range with Overextended + Stretch which keeps enemies in an eternal state of Stun as there is no such thing as CC resistance in this game. Meanwhile you just need to spore a single enemy and then Miasma spreads it indefinitely. Veeerry rarely your spore will drop off but its' very easy to get the train rolling again by just finding an enemy chocking on Miasma and sporing them before going back to Miasma spam. So long as you Miasma + Zenurik every now and again you're pretty much good to just stand in a nice quiet spot away from the prying eyes of enemy combatants and wreck the entire map. 

DE, I love you, but it feels like you don't learn anything sometimes. I don't know how you keep CREATING frames with a press 4 to win style when we've been working so hard to get away from that for the better part of 4 years now. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by Acos
more sass

[feralknights]

3 hours ago, Acos said:

Gut feeling: She seems kind of overpowered for onslaught, she's probably fine everywhere else.  

IMO Spores are a gigantic chore on most of the star chart-- the core of the game.  You have to play the "kill quickly but not too quickly!!" game to make sure they spread continuously, and as others have noted a few times over the last couple of pages, spawns and tiles can completely screw over the entire purpose of the 'scaling damage' rework.  I've tried adjusting builds, tweaking things -- it just feels like one gigantic pain in the ass until you hit content at-or-beyond Sedna level (breaking 40, etc.), and if you are playing with a team your spores either do everything or do nothing, there is just no in-between anymore.

You can still-- it was never a problem in 2.0-- solo run the top tier bounties at Cetus, but you have to make sure your Toxic Lash never ever runs out because enemies are so frequently so spread out that they're out of cast or spread range.  Enemies like Ghouls wipe debuffs and become damage/status immune when they burrow underground, so when they dive and pop again, whoops.  Imagine what Melee 3.0 is going to look like with Toxic Lash and accidental spore detonations, I'm foreseeing a lot of Spore being unintentionally burned through and put into decay way, way faster.

I know someone that is pretty close to unlocking Saryn, and I'm waiting to hear their (as a newer, lower-rank player with little-to-no top-end mods to draw from than arguably a lot of us) take on it as someone that never played Saryn 2.0.

(As a P.S., it's also really frustrating, at least to me, that they took one of the best debuff 'frames in the game, broke her kit in half, duct taped it back together backwards, and then almost immediately announce a new debuff frame.)

[Acos]

5 hours ago, feralknights said:

IMO Spores are a gigantic chore on most of the star chart-- the core of the game.

I think people at this stage are probably too focused on her spore combo as her mechanic; Against lower level enemies its' not very useful and you are much better off with a Stretch + Overextended + Fleeting Expertise and just spamming Miasma to one-shot everything. Spore does a lot of damage over time, but the vast majority of enemies on the starchart will never need that kind of power to take out, and its' very simple to just burn a 30 energy spell over and over again to stun-lock everything while it dies. Spore isn't necessary at that level of gameplay.

I want to say that around 40-50+ is when her spore game comes in, and it felt really simple to me to get it going; Just cast spore at an enemy, then cast miasma. What I am noticing about Spore is that it seems to grow in power very quickly based on the number of enemies afflicted, and then level off again. At around 500-1000 its' killing enemies so quickly that its damage past that point is mostly just fluff, and so it doesn't really matter if it occasionally falls off as its very easy to get it going again if it does. Not that it falls off very often anyway; Miasma spam with Stretch + Overextended meant that it was spreading everywhere to enemies I couldn't even see and only knew existed because of the constant EXP popping up all over my screen. 

I don't personally think keeping spores up is a chore at all; it seems dead easy to me. The most difficult part is probably getting all the mods and Zenurik together, but once all of that is in place Saryn does an absolutely insane amount of damage with very little effort or gameplay involved. Like you, I was very much happy with her pre-rework where she offered a variety of scaling debuffs that were always useful, but still required her to play the game. Now she can just stand in one spot (preferably where the enemy AI is too dumb to get too) and spam Miasma + Zenurik. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by Acos

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

A debuff frame which looks so slow to function. A combination of sleep and ash's 4. Nyx's 1 across multiple enemies. And basically any movement ability plus wukong's cloud walker. A sort of infection ability like saryn's one...

 

Apparently it's the lazy cycle for DE in which they don't even look at forums or at potential warframes from youtube content creators. It's not good times

[lindenbrock]

Didnt think to post my issues here and made my own thread. Ive only read the last 2 pages of this thread, but the general consensus seems that DE #*!%ed up with 3.0, and then when they tried to fix that buggy unplayable pile of garbage they still ended up leaving bugs/issues and made her counter productive to a lot of the game modes (trying to focus on ramping up spores instead of just killing everything). 3.0 spores was stupid and im glad its gone. New spores isnt much of an improvement though for reasons already stated in the thread.

I didnt see anything about multiple saryns in a squad hindering each other by taking up the limited 3 spots for spores, which was the main point for my thread. I wont copy paste it all, but to summarize: why cant we just raise the spore cap per enemy based on the number of saryns in the squad? Instead of one saryn being useless while the other takes up all 3 spore spots on every enemy, limit each saryn to 2 spores and raise the cap to 4 spores when theres 2 in a squad so each saryn gets 2 spores per enemy. This isnt an ideal solution IMO, but i cant think of anything better to fix this mess DE left us with after they rushed to fix the broken pile of garbage she was at 3.0 release.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

2 hours ago, lindenbrock said:

Snip

At least it's thought put into the direct correlation of amount of saryn's. It's definitely worth a slot here

[DjKaplis]

On 2018-06-04 at 9:48 AM, Traumtulpe said:

A little update after a lot more playtime with the new Saryn: She is crazy strong and versatile. Any problems with Saryn being weak or not functioning well under any circumstances are a problem with the build.

She is different now, but the truth is: She is simply better. Play around with different builds - she plays very distinctly with different mods.

Thanks to Pablo for the rework, and sorry for the negative feedback you have gotten for your efforts.

I agree. And even now you see Saryn in missions more often than before rework so I would say majority of players like her better now.

[SyBuhr]

22 hours ago, Acos said:

I think people at this stage are probably too focused on her spore combo as her mechanic; Against lower level enemies its' not very useful and you are much better off with a Stretch + Overextended + Fleeting Expertise and just spamming Miasma to one-shot everything. Spore does a lot of damage over time, but the vast majority of enemies on the starchart will never need that kind of power to take out, and its' very simple to just burn a 30 energy spell over and over again to stun-lock everything while it dies. Spore isn't necessary at that level of gameplay.

I want to say that around 40-50+ is when her spore game comes in, and it felt really simple to me to get it going; Just cast spore at an enemy, then cast miasma. What I am noticing about Spore is that it seems to grow in power very quickly based on the number of enemies afflicted, and then level off again. At around 500-1000 its' killing enemies so quickly that its damage past that point is mostly just fluff, and so it doesn't really matter if it occasionally falls off as its very easy to get it going again if it does. Not that it falls off very often anyway; Miasma spam with Stretch + Overextended meant that it was spreading everywhere to enemies I couldn't even see and only knew existed because of the constant EXP popping up all over my screen. 

I don't personally think keeping spores up is a chore at all; it seems dead easy to me. The most difficult part is probably getting all the mods and Zenurik together, but once all of that is in place Saryn does an absolutely insane amount of damage with very little effort or gameplay involved. Like you, I was very much happy with her pre-rework where she offered a variety of scaling debuffs that were always useful, but still required her to play the game. Now she can just stand in one spot (preferably where the enemy AI is too dumb to get too) and spam Miasma + Zenurik. 

• People are focused on Spores, because that has become (and been) the entire focus of her kit. Miasma spreads spores, Toxic Lash spreads spores. It is the focus, design-wise. To say that people are too focused on that is practically irrelevant and a given, because that is the design.
• So fore-go her entire kit, to spam Miasma, which was supposed to be the move-away. Not even considering that, during the level-up phase, you won't have access to Miasma for a duration (albeit, it could be very short). Seems more like an over-sight design-wise more than anything, and suggesting that as a "fix" isn't really too helpful for the health of the frame. It just puts her back at her 1.0 time-frame where people spammed Miasma 24/7.
• Everyone _{(See also: Majority of People who have criticized the ability, Spores)} has already stated that spores are only good for higher end content, when you can actually somewhat keep up with the spores and have them spread reliably. 
• Spreading spores is a chore compared to before, where you didn't need to micromanage energy and counters, map spawns, and your allies.

5 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

On 2018-06-04 at 2:48 AM, Traumtulpe said:

A little update after a lot more playtime with the new Saryn: She is crazy strong and versatile. Any problems with Saryn being weak or not functioning well under any circumstances are a problem with the build.

She is different now, but the truth is: She is simply better. Play around with different builds - she plays very distinctly with different mods.

Thanks to Pablo for the rework, and sorry for the negative feedback you have gotten for your efforts.

I agree. And even now you see Saryn in missions more often than before rework so I would say majority of players like her better now.

It's awesome you all are enjoying the Update. ^{(That's serious, by the way.)}

I'd disagree on her being "better". Design-wise, I do not care for her. Yes, she is a great DPS-frame now, but I don't personally want another DPS frame when I imagine a debuff frame that could support the team. Now she is full-focused on DPS now, rather than having that as an option whilst also being able to Debuff via Viral effectively. I feel that it was a trade for one sin to another. The design premise for her 2.0 time was to step away from the spam-4 mentality, which was successful. Now, she is more focused on that after casting her Spores, as Miasma doesn't need Line-Of-Sight like Toxic Lash needs.

You are seeing a lot more Saryns, and the sad thing is that they are metaphorically choking each other out in missions. It isn't too enjoyable, to say the least. Just because there is a rise in players play-testing the new changes does not necessarily equate to the over-all enjoyment the frame offers. Objectively, she isn't good for mobile missions, Large tiles, or the open-world content, which is the direction DE is going in with the up and coming Venus World. It is great that there are a rise in players playing her, but if we take a step back, she has always been a really strong frame starting from her 2.0 time. I'd be hard-pressed to imagine someone didn't enjoy playing her during that time, because she offered a lot to the table. If you wanted every single enemy's HP halved, you could do that and support the team. If you wanted a majority of the kills, you could do that too. Now, she pretty much hogs the kills, and if you have more than one Saryn, one of them is not going to see much use other than Spam-4. She isn't as versatile as she used to be, now with her niche being removed almost entirely for favor of becoming a DPS-frame balanced solely around Onslaught (which should be clear and evident at this point). Stating that those problems stated with the frame and its abilities are purely with a build is a subjective notion at its core. Stating that she should function well under any circumstances? Take her to the plains. Her spores are meaningless unless you spam them with Miasma, the very ability DE wanted to move away from spamming during the 2.0 revision. Even with max-range spores, you will not get efficient spreads, and that is just due to how the spawns are. Stating that she is good with every single piece of content the game has to offer, when it is clear she was balanced around Onslaught is just a silly stance to take.

Lastly, negative feedback is a good thing when applied appropriately, which I think this thread has managed to do (and offer new ideas to try out). Sure, people are not optimistic about future changes (See also: Ember), but that's due to the over-arching track record. I think for the most part, people have been very constructive and concise with what changes they want Saryn to be given. I am not sure why you ^{(See: Traumtulpe)} feel the need to apologize for that, or for anyone else's basis.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

Ok.

Tried saryn on console with 7 different variations of builds. 

Notes. I took notes. And changed my playstyle. These are notes that I took while playing

   •Energy hungry. Could not cast many abilities despite having zenurik active 90% of the time(yes 90% of the time). Only functions well with max efficiency. Maybe if you have arcane energize, but I'm not lucky enough to even have the first one. 

   •no reward for spreading spores. Toxic lash gave energy back for popping spores on 2.0 saryn because she was so energy hungry. 3.0 and on she's far too energy hungry unless you have max efficiency. 

   •due to not getting energy back she can't cast as often as she would need. Technically less survivability due to not having the energy to cast regen molt. 

   ☆fix. Add energy refund on personal spore spread with toxic lash. 

   •inconsistent spread of spores. Spores NEEDS to have spread on tick death. Many times I'll be heading to an enemy and they'll die because I couldn't shoot or melee them before spores killed them(no spread). {Not entirely relevant here but enemies still spawn inside walls. Spores was on them but I couldn't cast miasma on most builds of saryn. Couldn't melee them through walls so they didn't die from anything but spores.(No spread)}

   ☆fix. Add spore spread on any death regardless of circumstances. Enemies killed by teammates do not spread spores unless they hit spores(Tested in simulacrum consistently). Change damage scaling mechanic to only apply built up damage to spores spread by saryn herself(fixes many issues that DE is worried about for some stupid reason and makes saryn consistent).

   •spores also might as well just reset entirely between infections. The decay is far too fast even modding against it. 

   ☆fix. Extend spore decay because it might as well just reset otherwise even when built for it. 

   •upon death, Saryn's spores clear from all enemies and damage is reset. This just doesn't feel good. 

   ☆fix. Keep spores active, but reset damage. This I don't mind, but omg when spores just disappear? that just feels bad.

 

Conclusion. Saryn is a close range frame designed to function on damage that is inconsistent at best and almost forces her to be in line of sight with multiples of projectile based enemies. She runs out of energy too quickly on most builds to effectively cast abilities that can heal her or stun enemies. Her abilities are inconsistent, clunky, micromanaging hell on wheels that DE refuses to accept has these problems. The issues are apparent across many different builds and playstyle for those builds effectively pigeonholing saryn into very few builds.

To me. This is a lazy revisit that only the bare minimum was done, and done badly enough that I can't stand it. 

   I gave my fixes to the majority of issues I had. there's no reason these fixes can't be implemented, and my fixes still apply the mentality of moving around so the lazy argument against these changes doesn't apply. 

Unless these issues are fixed, I can't play warframe. My favorite frame is NOT fun to play. 

These are valid points and can be addressed easily, but until then? 

Bye warframe. It was fun while it lasted. I'll keep an eye on saryn for a while but if nothing happens then it's over for that too.

GG DE. You killed a fan

Edited June 6, 2018 by (PS4)Kairu_Aname
Spelling edits

[Acos]

4 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

• People are focused on Spores, because that has become (and been) the entire focus of her kit. Miasma spreads spores, Toxic Lash spreads spores. It is the focus, design-wise. To say that people are too focused on that is practically irrelevant and a given, because that is the design.
• So fore-go her entire kit, to spam Miasma, which was supposed to be the move-away. Not even considering that, during the level-up phase, you won't have access to Miasma for a duration (albeit, it could be very short). Seems more like an over-sight design-wise more than anything, and suggesting that as a "fix" isn't really too helpful for the health of the frame. It just puts her back at her 1.0 time-frame where people spammed Miasma 24/7.
• Everyone _{(See also: Majority of People who have criticized the ability, Spores)} has already stated that spores are only good for higher end content, when you can actually somewhat keep up with the spores and have them spread reliably. 
• Spreading spores is a chore compared to before, where you didn't need to micromanage energy and counters, map spawns, and your allies.

 

You kind of come off as condescending; not sure if that is intentional. Let me clarify a few things I think you're missing about what I've said: 

When I say people are too focused on spores I mean people are too focused on having 100% spore uptime management. It isn't necessary, and Saryns design doesn't necessitate you doing this. It is, I felt, very easy to simpley cast Spore on an enemy, and then cast Miasma. Whatever your spore damage winds up being or however far it spreads it is still going to be powerful enough that it is killing the entire room map world. The damage ramps up dramatically in the beginning before evening out which means that even if the spores do drop off its a very simple Spore > Miasma process to get the murder-train rolling again. 

As for point two... I didn't propose a fix. I'm absolutely against Miasma spam. I think current Saryn is a brain-dead press 4 to win, and am very much against that as I think it is damaging for the health of the game as a whole. 

As for point three: My point is that Saryn can "work" in the low level Star Chart just fine by spamming Miasma. That doesn't mean I think that type of gameplay is good, but that she is technically viable in that she is able to contribute to killing enemies with her powers without needing to bother with her spore mechanic in lower level missions. At the same time, I am a veteran player who is more concerned with how frames work at their full potential, so I'd prefer to leave the conversation about low-level start chart progression to people who are more informed/inclined to talk about it; I don't personally spend enough time with that aspect of this game anymore to want to discuss it in depth and I'm not the right person to be having that conversation. 

Point 4: Spreading spores is stupidly easy, and its' not a big deal if they fall off because it's very easy to start them up again. This is ultimately my entire argument. Saryns entire gameplay right now is press 1, and then press 4 a whole bunch. It's stupidly powerful, it's stupidly easy, it's boring to play and its' boring to play with anyone using it. It feels like DE took everything they learned about power development over the last 5 years and just chucked it out the window. I have never been in favor of 'press 4 to win' builds and I can't figure out how they still manage to accidentally make them when they've expressed being against that style of play for so long. 

[Traumtulpe]

4 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

she is full-focused on DPS now, rather than having that as an option whilst also being able to Debuff via Viral effectively.

You can still apply viral to every single enemy constantly - just not "passively" with Spores, but instead by casting Miasma regularly. In addition you remove armor now, so you can use an aura besides Corrosive Projection.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

Energy hungry. Could not cast many abilities

You can play Saryn with 45% efficiency just fine - get Hunter Adrenalin and don't use Miasma too much. Easy. Or you roll with 130-175% efficiency and Zenurik to cast abilities to your hearts content. I'd say this is a critical user error.

Quote

Many times I'll be heading to an enemy and they'll die because I couldn't shoot or melee them before spores killed them

Spore damage is optional. When enemies have armor or live long in general, you supplement your damage with Spores - otherwise you are fine without. Try using the right tool for the right situation.

5 hours ago, SyBuhr said:

I am not sure why you feel the need to apologize for that, or for anyone else

In my opinion a lot of the complaints are unreasonable. Also a few posts were downright insulting, though this might have been on reddit. I think he deserves better.

Please recognize: Saryn cannot be buffed in any way - she is already top tier. Of course there are other reasons to dislike the rework, please feel free to share your opinion. In any case: I wouldn't bet on yet another rework.

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

Traumtulpe

 

First. 

You didn't read the bulk of the posts you're responding to. You only picked out a select few sentences that you didn't like without reading the parts that made those valid.

Here's whets I find fault with criticising my post. 

The full part of my post says 

   {Energy hungry. Could not cast many abilities despite having zenurik active 90%of the time(yes 90% of the time). Only functions well with max efficiency. Maybe if if you have arcane energize, I'm not lucky enough to have the first one.}

It mentions at least one thing you said. 

Second.

This is a feedback forum. This is not a complain about others giving constructive feedback forum. 

Third. 

To simply try to brush off my actual criticism without reading or comprehending any of it? Please Actually read it instead of nitpicking the one thing you don't like that I said. 

Fourth.

The right tool for the right job is my favorite frame and whatever I like to use with it, including abilities. Fun is a factor is this game.  This also includes the parts where I include fixes to these things I don't like in a constructive manner. 

Fifth. 

"Use miasma regularly"

And "don't use miasma too much"

Are indirect contradiction.

Try coming up with a cohesive statement before trying to correct anyone else's posts, yeah? 

Now. I'm glad you like saryn now, but I don't. It's not a perfect rework but I hope it gets there. Now. Let people have their valid opinion(I know you didn't read) and move on. 

[MasaJin]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Spore damage is optional. When enemies have armor or live long in general, you supplement your damage with Spores - otherwise you are fine without. Try using the right tool for the right situation.

i don't get why people's solution to spores now over powering everything is saying "don't use spores" what else is saryn to do 

A) molt not alot that's gonna do

B) toxic lash that only helps weapons and not everyone has good weapons or mods to make that work all the time

C) miasma spam everyone hates it but say saryn is fine cus it makes her stronger that the opposite of good feedback.

if it's bad it's bad tell DE this is a bad move dont say she's in a good place cus she can kill anything in the game any frame can do that her spam is just faster

Spores make saryn thats why this rework focused on it and nothing else cus that defines her and right now spores is bad and it makes her bad

I still love her still my favorite frame will still play her for everything cus im hopeing for a fix im hopeing for them to tell us they heard our feedback and make her in a perfect balance and not leave her in the unfinished pile with other reworks

Edited June 6, 2018 by MasaJin

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

6 minutes ago, MasaJin said:

i don't get why people's solution to spores now over powering everything is saying "don't use spores" what else is saryn to do 

   ---

I still love her still my favorite frame will still will play her for everything cus im hopeing for a fix im hopeing for them to tell us they heard our feedback and make her in a perfect balance and not leave her in the unfinished pile with other reworks

I'm glad you can still play her(for real), because I've tried her with bunches of different builds and I can't do it. I can't stand the pigeonholing into one or two styles of play with very little difference between builds at that point.