This is a serious problem.

[Letter13]

Just now, Sitchrea said:

I would highly recommend you watch his video. While humorous, he brings to light far, far more than a few sentences worth of issues. It would also do you well to educate on what we're discussing, and why many of us are so riled up about moderator accountability.

I don't have the time to. 

The summary I got from the conversation(s) thusfar is:

"Moderators A, B, C, and D should have their permissions be revoked and get banned from the game because they did W, X, Y, and Z"

It doesn't change the fact that this should have all been submitted through the appropriate channels (put in a support ticket or a private message to DE staff) rather than start up a torch and pitchfork crusade against specific members of the community.

[Sitchrea]

Just now, rune_me said:

No. If it's private employees, the "victims" has no right at all to know. That doesn't mean a company can't inform the public, but they don't need to, and the public most certainly don't have a right to be informed.

Then you must have misinterpreted what I said earlier. DE doesn't have to be transparent about how they handle their chat moderators, but it's because of this silence/lack of transparency that these issues arise in the first place - because right now it appears as if DE doesn't hold their moderators accountable at all. I doubt this is the case, but that is how it appears because they haven't said anything beyond a Bungie-style, "we are listening" post.

[Letter13]

2 minutes ago, Sh1batata said:

Think it this way: if DE had made a better job at filtering their community representatives said video would never be made and thus no "witch hunts" started. It all boils down to DE almost-like-incompetence.

I guarantee you that it doesn't matter how well DE 'filters their community representatives', stuff like this (complaints about moderators abusing their privileges) will always happen no matter what.

The community is way too large for any decision on anything (whether it's changes to the game, or adding someone to the moderator team) to make everyone happy and content.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Letter13

[Vilemyre]

Just now, Letter13 said:

I don't have the time to. 

The summary I got from the conversation(s) thusfar is:

"Moderators A, B, C, and D should have their permissions be revoked and get banned from the game because they did W, X, Y, and Z"

It doesn't change the fact that this should have all been submitted through the appropriate channels (put in a support ticket or a private message to DE staff) rather than start up a torch and pitchfork crusade against specific members of the community.

I'm sure nobody considered messaging DE personally because multiple messages of the same issue with the same video would have likely been viewed as a witch hunt. However if you feel thats also possible then I guess contacting anyone from DE directly would be best.

[DatDarkOne]

4 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

In using your analogy, though, the situations we are bringing light to are those akin to a private security guard calling customers PoS' and idiots for not knowing a product is expired. That is worthy of reprimand, and the victims, I would think, have a right to know what's being done about it.

I hate to say it, but the victim in a case/situation like this doesn't have a right to know anything.  In a perfect world, the employer would inform them, but they are not obligated to do so.  

[NullSaint]

1 minute ago, Vilemyre said:

I'm sure nobody considered messaging DE personally because multiple messages of the same issue with the same video would have likely been viewed as a witch hunt. 

Alternatively, multiple messages with proof would have been viewed as evidence, rather than 5 people screaming about something with no documentation.

[Letter13]

1 minute ago, Vilemyre said:

I'm sure nobody considered messaging DE personally because multiple messages of the same issue with the same video would have likely been viewed as a witch hunt. However if you feel thats also possible then I guess contacting anyone from DE directly would be best.

The best avenue, if you observe a moderator abusing their privileges and violating the TOS/COC in the in-game chat or on the forums firsthand, is to report the issue to DE using a support ticket.

At this point, reporting the moderators this thread is launching a torch and pitchfork witch hunt against is probably not necessary because it's clear the issue has already been reported, likely multiple times by multiple people (and many of which might be third party reports--from users who never actually viewed firsthand the moderator doing any wrong, and are just re-stating what others have said)

Edited May 31, 2018 by Letter13

[Sitchrea]

Just now, Letter13 said:

I don't have the time to. 

The summary I got from the conversation(s) thusfar is:

"Moderators A, B, C, and D should have their permissions be revoked and get banned from the game because they did W, X, Y, and Z"

It doesn't change the fact that this should have all been submitted through the appropriate channels (put in a support ticket or a private message to DE staff) rather than start up a torch and pitchfork crusade against specific members of the community.

While true to an extent, that is watering down the severity of certain individuals' actions.

What's more is we are not calling for certain mods to have their duties revoked. What we want is a show of accountability and transparency of intent. Right now we have no way of knowing whether moderators are treated equally or not, whether DE intends to do anything about the controversy or not, or whether we can trust our moderators at all. It is because of so many instances of first-hand accounts, unprofessionalism, and outright draconian tactics that we want to know we're being heard.

Ironically, this is a similar issue that the Destiny fanbase has been going through, only over a different controversy.

[Cibyllae]

1 minute ago, DatDarkOne said:

In a perfect world, the employer would inform them, but they are not obligated to do so.  

And in the end the employer will face the consequences of not handling customer relations properly.

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, Vilemyre said:

Which hunts happen all the time with backlash. Luckily we aren't a part fo that and we don't want to be thank god.

 

Precisely. It's a sad reality, so the most we can do right now is try to reach a compromise, but with the lack of communication from DE, I fear that may never come to fruition.

[Sitchrea]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I hate to say it, but the victim in a case/situation like this doesn't have a right to know anything.  In a perfect world, the employer would inform them, but they are not obligated to do so.  

You would still agree it would be best for DE to at least talk to us, right? Regardless if they should, it would be best?

1 minute ago, NullSaint said:

Alternatively, multiple messages with proof would have been viewed as evidence, rather than 5 people screaming about something with no documentation.

^Consecutive instances of continued abuse should, I would think, be considered evidence of wrongdoing. 

[pavlo555]

4 минуты назад, Letter13 сказал:

It doesn't change the fact that this should have all been submitted through the appropriate channels (put in a support ticket or a private message to DE staff) rather than start up a torch and pitchfork crusade against specific members of the community.

Last time I was about to get banned for hydroid interception exploit, it was not my course of actions. Good to see you show up, instead of someone like *redacted* who would lock and go away, like with my support ticket.

Remember me?

[Letter13]

1 minute ago, Sitchrea said:

While true to an extent, that is watering down the severity of certain individuals' actions.

What's more is we are not calling for certain mods to have their duties revoked. What we want is a show of accountability and transparency of intent. Right now we have no way of knowing whether moderators are treated equally or not, whether DE intends to do anything about the controversy or not, or whether we can trust our moderators at all. It is because of so many instances of first-hand accounts, unprofessionalism, and outright draconian tactics that we want to know we're being heard.

Ironically, this is a similar issue that the Destiny fanbase has been going through, only over a different controversy.

I'm of the mind that the whole situation could be reduced to a very efficient set of sentences and/or list without watering down anything. Using an hour long video is not good evidence. A concise and to the point list or examples, sorted by who did what, is much more effective and efficient.

[Vilemyre]

4 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

The best avenue, if you observe a moderator abusing their privileges and violating the TOS/COC in the in-game chat or on the forums firsthand, is to report the issue to DE using a support ticket.

At this point, reporting the moderators this thread is launching a torch and pitchfork witch hunt against is probably a futile effort because it's clear the issue has already been reported.

That being said if any of this isn't within warframe TOS but could look awful on their PR would it be ideal to directly contact them via twitter or any source of contact? Again some but not all of this applies directly inside warframe but its related to warframe as its targetting the playerbase as a whole and DE.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Vilemyre

[EvilDarknessAlien]

The first problem region chat need fix is...

 

 

A salt emotion.

[Sitchrea]

Just now, Letter13 said:

I'm of the mind that the whole situation could be reduced to a very efficient set of sentences and/or list without watering down anything. Using an hour long video is not good evidence. A concise and to the point list or examples, sorted by who did what, is much more effective and efficient.

But that's what this video is. It's an essay presented evidence of wrongdoing. It's only an hour long because there are so many instances of wrongdoing.

 

[NullSaint]

2 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

^Consecutive instances of continued abuse should, I would think, be considered evidence of wrongdoing. 

Without evidence, those are not "instances of...abuse". They are angry people who got banned yelling about it.

Edited May 31, 2018 by NullSaint

[Letter13]

1 minute ago, Vilemyre said:

That being said if any of this isn't withing warframe TOS but could look awful on their PR would it be ideal to directly contact them via twitter or any source of contact? Again some but not all of this applies directly inside warframe but its related to warframe as its targetting the playerbase as a whole and DE.

Support ticket/Community Inbox would still be the best avenue.

[Ikusias]

1 minute ago, Nines.AI said:

The content of that video might've actually held some weight if it wasn't an hour of someone doing a "le funny haha" voice.

It really detracts from any serious point you're trying to make when I'm having to be barraged by winceworthy larping from the first minute.

 

Also I like how I skipped ahead and he was trying to defend Shadow, someone who willingly posted about the issue on pro-gamergate subreddits.

 

Then you need to rewatch the video and see how he vas being satiric,and also that the mentioned Shadow is one of the mods that he stated was risking more among the ones in the video due to racist and insulting externations... and the fact that , if he was the only one removed, it would establish a trend in which only white straight males are targeted by disciplinary measures among De "volunteers". For the record, the two moderators, one of who had until some time ago a deliberately offensive in game handle, are, from this and other material floating the net (and it wasn't the first time this informations emerged on reddit) severely opinionated against most of the warframe community demographic.

True, social media content and the like could have been faked, photoshopped or anything, but the fact that the incriminated tumblr post has been removed, that the mod in question "changed" her IG keeping the more inflammatory part, make this stink.

Still any company I have worked with in the past would have given the boot to any prospective employee or consulent with similar externations on their social media, just to avoid this kind of problems.

The wait and see approach on De side contrasts starkly with how they treated the Guide of the Lotus case, showing a clear double standard... usually with suspects like this, the involved parties are suspended and put under review until things are satisfactorily clarified, not left to their own devices, keeping at what they are doing with a chance to muddle the waters in their favour.

About Letter13: he can not and will not take a side on the issue or say anything more on the argument because, correctly, he's moderating the thread. taking a side or giving further information without his superiors say so would prejudicate his neutrality, don't badger him.

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, Cibyllae said:

And in the end the employer will face the consequences of not handling customer relations properly.

In a perfect world, maybe. In the real world, the customers would go on Facebook (or in this case the forums), write an angry post, get a couple of thousand likes, get everyone to swear they will boycott the employer, and then two weeks later, everyone will have forgotten all about it. 'Coz it's easier to talk the talk on the internet than it is to actually walk the walk in real life.

[Sitchrea]

1 minute ago, NullSaint said:

Without evidence, those are not "instance of...abuse". They are angry people who got banned yelling about it.

Did you not watch the video? This discussion is not about chat censorship. That's just a symptom of a much larger cause.

[Lord-Taco-the-Great]

47 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Not directly, no. The video has a lot of cherry picked posts/statements/chat messages, some non-relevant stuff, and a lot of speculation. Appropriate evidence would be a screenshot of a full chat log (or forum post(s)) and all interactions involved in the event that clearly shows abuse of moderation privileges. It would also have to be of these forums or the in-game chat; pictures/screenshots from external sites (read: tumblr) does not work well as evidence as they cannot be corroborated for accuracy and they are outside the scope of the Terms of Use and Code of Conduct for Warframe.

Letter, I like you man but this video clearly shows Fosinator being punished for stuff he did outside of warframe. If DE can remove Fosinator for what he's said on twitter and youtube, they can punish any other mod for social media posts. Otherwise, it's just a double standard. If what you are saying is true, Fosinator deserves his role back, even though he won't rejoin.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Lord-Taco-the-Great
Removed duplicate

[Letter13]

Just now, Sitchrea said:

But that's what this video is. It's an essay presented evidence of wrongdoing. It's only an hour long because there are so many instances of wrongdoing.

It would have still been much faster to get through were it written. Again, I'm not going to spend an hour of my time on something it should take <10 minutes to review. I don't want opinionated commentary and speculation with cherry picked screenshots.

[Lord-Taco-the-Great]

Why did that double post? Could you remove the duplicate?

edit: duplicate removed

Edited May 31, 2018 by Lord-Taco-the-Great

[Lord-Taco-the-Great]

1 minute ago, Letter13 said:

It would have still been much faster to get through were it written. Again, I'm not going to spend an hour of my time on something it should take <10 minutes to review. I don't want opinionated commentary and speculation with cherry picked screenshots.

If you'd want me to sum it up for you I can. I want you to trust me when I say this video has good points.