Can we do something about 2 or more saryns choking each other out when in the same squad?

[lindenbrock]

Having 3 spore spots per enemy and having 2 or mroe saryns compete for those limited spots is stupid. I use my saryn p in ESO because she has an eidolon lens, as does my ignis wraith, i can usually get 120k+ per 8-10 waves... except when theres another saryn. One of us always ends up choking the other out, and im generally the one doing 5% of the teams damage because the other one has max range and all spore spots are filled. So i sit there being useless and bored and not getting near as much affinity as i usually could, as my build is slightly below max range but has lots more str than most saryns ive seen so i can kill a lot faster than they can. Doesnt matter how fast my spores scale or how much damage they do if all 3 spore spots on all enemies are filled though. I can usually keep efficiency at 95%+ up to wave 10 while doing 60%+ of the teams damage just by spores alone with a rare miasma or use of toxic lash for a second to transfer spores. Other saryn builds that ive copied and tried struggle to break 1k sometimes in ESO because they scale so incredibly slow without any strength, and then they cant keep efficiency up in later stages because 1k damage against level 80+ enemies is nothing. Ive only seen one other saryn that managed to do good damage up until wave 11, and that was because they didnt put any health or shield mods on in favor of lots of duration mods to make miasma last a lot longer. Sure they could do great damage and keep it going in higher stages, but they went down at least 2 or 3 times per wave because they have no health

 

The only way i can think of to fix this would be to allow multiple saryns to each have their own "reserved" spore spots on an enemy, maybe 2 spots each when theres 2 saryns in a squad, and 1 spot each when theres 3? For example: With 2 saryns in a squad saryn A casts spores with max range and transfers 2 to every enemy in range. That saryn is capped at 2 spores per enemy even though all enemies can have 4 spores max, because those other 2 slots are reserved for saryn B should they choose to cast spores. This would let all saryns have the same amount of spores on every enemy if they wanted to, and would prevent one saryn with max range and no strength from hindering other saryns that dont have max range. DE really #*!%ed up when saryn 3.0 released, her skills were all whack and everything relating to her was broken and either didnt work or worked sometimes. Since then they made lots of changes and im glad they did, but it doesnt seem like they really thought about the changes. They released her 3.0 in a horribly broken state as a kneejerk reaction to her molt nuking becoming very popular, and then quickly changed the aspects of her abilities that players complained about, mostly the ability to recast to pop all spores (which was a horrible idea in the first place, thanks Pablo), without really thinking about multi saryn synergy. Before enemies could have 9 spores on them at once, i dont see why we have to be limited to 3 spores from any saryn now. I can get my spores up to 1k in roughly 30 seconds, imagine 9 ticks of 500 damage on every enemy on screen without any effort on my part other than taking 5 seconds to cast spores once and then toxic lash to transfer them. I agree that would be way too OP in her current state which is probably why it was lowered to 3, but why cant we up the bar a bit based on how many saryns are in the squad?

 

The only issue i see with my idea of reserved spots for each saryn would be if there are 3 saryns in a squad, meaning each is limited to only 1 spore per enemy. Honestly though, what squad ever needs 3 saryns? If its a pub match and you get unlucky and get matched with 2 other saryns, oh well. Maybe the massive saryn hype will finally die down and you wont see at least one saryn p in every mission when they start having their damage capabilities slightly restricted because of how popular she is right now. I love her and dont want her damage to be restricted like that, but its a better alternative to how restrictive multiple saryns are right now. Id rather everyone be equally handicapped than just whichever saryn doesnt manage to transfer spores before the other, or doesnt have as much range as the other. 

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by lindenbrock

[Guest]

Or you can, you know, try to focus on helping one Saryn by spending your energy on Miasma and Toxic Lash instead...

[lindenbrock]

9 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Or you can, you know, try to focus on helping one Saryn by spending your energy on Miasma and Toxic Lash instead...

My miasma lasts 6 seconds i think with my str build, sure it can pop spores if they die during those 6 seconds but thats a very limited time frame for how much energy it costs. Simaris also locks that ability if used too much so i dont use it that often. My build works fine without me ever using miasma, so even when theres another saryn i dont think to use it too often. I do usually have lash up with a 40 or 50 second duration, but my build relies on that for spore transfer. That still doesnt fix the issue of saryns choking each other out or the issue of gaining less affinity because i cant cast spores on anything. Ive played multiple instances of ESO with other saryns with more range than me and i still play as i usually would, trying to keep spores up, using lash to pop them, etc. but ive never managed to get as much focus as when im the only saryn. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by lindenbrock

[RealPandemonium]

Spore damage growth is capped at 10 enemies, and these enemies are constantly dying; the constant turnover allows for relatively even spore distribution and makes maintaining 10 infectees at a time a very manageable goal even in a squad of 4 Saryns.  Seems like people complaining about this are upset that they got fewer kills than other Saryns that had more power range.  

[rechot]

14 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Spore damage growth is capped at 10 enemies, and these enemies are constantly dying; the constant turnover allows for relatively even spore distribution and makes maintaining 10 infectees at a time a very manageable goal even in a squad of 4 Saryns.  Seems like people complaining about this are upset that they got fewer kills than other Saryns that had more power range.  

spores can have more than 10 infected targets.(most i have gotten was 43) What he is saying is since one saryn has more range there is nowhere for him to cast spores because they wont spread. if there are 2 or more saryns its likely only one of them is actually going to be using spores since the rest get overpowered.

[LSG501]

Pablo has already said no on twitter...... personally I think it needs to be fixed like the OP, at present because spore builds are going to be pretty similar it's basically who ever hits and kills a target first and the other doesn't get a look in.

[lindenbrock]

25 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Spore damage growth is capped at 10 enemies, and these enemies are constantly dying; the constant turnover allows for relatively even spore distribution and makes maintaining 10 infectees at a time a very manageable goal even in a squad of 4 Saryns.  Seems like people complaining about this are upset that they got fewer kills than other Saryns that had more power range.  

Caps at 10, but its hard to hit the cap if all 3 spore spots are taken by another saryn. Cant even infect one enemy if the other saryn already has all 3 spots. Reread my post, its not like the majority of it was complaining about this issue and suggesting ways to fix it. Oh wait...

11 minutes ago, rechot said:

because they wont spread. if there are 2 or more saryns its likely only one of them is actually going to be using spores since the rest get overpowered.

 

6 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

at present because spore builds are going to be pretty similar it's basically who ever hits and kills a target first and the other doesn't get a look in.

Exactly. Whoever casts and spreads first is the useful saryn, the other has a majority of their damage potential restricted and might as well sit there doing nothing. They can still be useful, but saryn is a god right now and whoever transfers spores first could probably carry without any help at all from the other saryn.

[kyori]

I think your best bet is to request DE to make matchmaking not to include same frame. lol

[Leqesai]

It is kind of crappy for multiple saryns to group together but other frames have trouble grouping together too.

Off hand I believe these frames to have some measure of non friendly gameplay with the same frame.

Frost, nova, titania, inaros, vauban, zephyr, limbo, nezha, nidus, khora (Not sure about this 100%).

Frost bubbles with multiple frosts isn't very helpful.

Nova slowing or speeding

Titania captivation

Inaros sand monkeys

Vauban black hole and bastille to a degree

Zephyr tornados

Limbo cataclysm and stasis

Nezha and his spears of density

Nidus with his hentai buddy

And khoras mad max move

Heck. Hydroid tentacles and puddle too

[LSG501]

25 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Frost bubbles with multiple frosts isn't very helpful.

Inaros sand monkeys 

Vauban black hole and bastille to a degree

Zephyr tornados

Limbo cataclysm and stasis

Nezha and his spears of density

Nidus with his hentai buddy

And khoras mad max move

Heck. Hydroid tentacles and puddle too

Kind of stretching it a bit with these... in most cases they're only an issue if you're trying to do it at the exact same spot, saryn is different in that it spreads out from that central spot (not that we want range being nerfed or anything).... inaros is only an issue if there is one target, which isn't very often is it. 

[lindenbrock]

33 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

It is kind of crappy for multiple saryns to group together but other frames have trouble grouping together too.

Off hand I believe these frames to have some measure of non friendly gameplay with the same frame.

I agree other frames have issues when theres multiples of them in the same group, but how often do you see even one titania in a group? Or Nezha? Or Zephyr? Some of those frames are somewhat popular, like frost and limbo and nova, but a major part of saryns gameplay is her spores. Her 3 pops them, her 4 pops them, and her 2 used to be used to transfer them before it became a pure utility because molt nuking got too popular. All of those frames dont have their whole kit tied around one ability like saryn does with her spores. Sure she can survive fine without spores, but its an integral part of every one of her abilities except her new molt.

Also, every one of those frames you listed has a duration on their abilities, so if being restricted by another player (nidus's 2 for example) you can just wait it out and immediately cast after it ends so they are now restricted and not you, or cast in a different spot so you can still be useful even though the other player is hindering you. Saryns spores are infinite now though, and with max range its hard to not have almost every enemy on screen infected. Once they are all infected, all it takes is for one to die from any means while miasma is up (which is pretty easy with 9+ seconds at like 180% duration) and spores will transfer to the few enemies that arent fully infected, if any exist. With infinite duration and almost no effort required one saryn can choke out the other for the entire wave. Saryn A can infect everything with their max range and sit there almost afk'ing while their teammates kill miasma'ed enemies to transfer their sproes for them, while saryn B actively plays, using their 3, 4, and their weapons, and will still do far less damage and be far less helpful than if both saryns could have spores on the same enemies.

Edited June 4, 2018 by lindenbrock

[lindenbrock]

9 minutes ago, lindenbrock said:

With infinite duration and almost no effort required one saryn can choke out the other for the entire wave. Saryn A can infect everything with their max range and sit there almost afk'ing while their teammates kill miasma'ed enemies to transfer their sproes for them, while saryn B actively plays, using their 3, 4, and their weapons, and will still do far less damage and be far less helpful than if both saryns could have spores on the same enemies.

Sorry to quote myself but this is what i meant when i said DE didnt think about the changes. Sure spores at 3.0 release was horrible and stupid, but they didnt think about the consequences of infinite duration when they changed it. Im not saying i want the inf duration removed or spores totally reworked again, or even saryns range nerfed, im just saying that the above scenario is entirely possible and very easy to do. DE doesnt like afk methods, or things that make farming way too easy, thus the quake banshee change, the telos boltace nerf, even the saryn molt nuke nerf. In their haste to fix a rushed and broken pile of garbage they didnt think about the consequences, and as such ended up creating a very easy almost entirely afk method. Saryn doesnt even need miasma with its short duration to transfer spores. Her 3 gets crazy duration, so in the above scenario saryn A could just max out the spore spots on all enemies on the map, cast 3, and then click once every 20 seconds instead of every 10 or so with miasma. Enemies dont even have to die with this method. Use an aoe weapon like the lenz and that will transfer even more spores as it hits more enemies, completely eliminating any hope the other saryn had of getting even a single spore out

Edited June 4, 2018 by lindenbrock

[Leqesai]

16 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Kind of stretching it a bit with these... in most cases they're only an issue if you're trying to do it at the exact same spot, saryn is different in that it spreads out from that central spot (not that we want range being nerfed or anything).... inaros is only an issue if there is one target, which isn't very often is it. 

True, but usually those frames are trying to protect something. So protecting the same thing with multiple of the same frame can be problematic.

The saryn thing is really funny because it seems very tricky to allow them to play nicely. 

Simple solution us to just let them stack spores past the 3 limit. I mean, if it kills faster spores doesn't grow as fast and spreading it is harder, right? 

The way spores works seems to directly conflict with more applications and more damage. 

 

Imagine 4 saryns all spamming spores around. Things will die so fast that they will have to really fight against one another to get their spores spreading. Lol

Edited June 4, 2018 by Leqesai

[lindenbrock]

1 minute ago, Leqesai said:

The way spores works seems to directly conflict with more applications and more damage. 

Yup. Like i said, rushed 3.0, and then rushed changes because 3.0 sucked and was completely broken. She is much better now than she was at release, but DE just fixed those issues and replaced them with new ones because they didnt take time to think it out and work on her. I wouldnt of cared if they had said something like " We realize saryn is broken right now and we are working on it, expect a fix in about a week" instead of "oh #*!% somebody hurry and put a bandaid on this, i dont care how just fix it"

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

True, but usually those frames are trying to protect something. So protecting the same thing with multiple of the same frame can be problematic.

The saryn thing is really funny because it seems very tricky to allow them to play nicely.  

Simple solution us to just let them stack spores past the 3 limit. I mean, if it kills faster spores doesn't grow as fast and spreading it is harder, right?  

The way spores works seems to directly conflict with more applications and more damage.  

This is kind of similar to something that has been raised in the main saryn thread, playing spores on saryn basically means you're at odds with the rest of your team, you don't want to kill everything quickly as you want your stacks to build up which is the complete opposite of every other person on your team who wants to kill as much as possible as fast as possible. 

It also seems when you play saryn that you end up focusing more on keeping your spores active than 'playing the game', not all of us like that. 

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

These feedback items should go in the pinned saryn feedback thread

[lindenbrock]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

These feedback items should go in the pinned saryn feedback thread

I didnt realize there was one. I only come to the forums to talk about bugs/issues, didnt think to check for a saryn sticky. Put a link to this thread in that one

[Cibyllae]

On 2018-05-31 at 5:21 PM, Cibyllae said:

https://twitter.com/PabloPoon

[RealPandemonium]

8 hours ago, rechot said:

spores can have more than 10 infected targets.(most i have gotten was 43) What he is saying is since one saryn has more range there is nowhere for him to cast spores because they wont spread. if there are 2 or more saryns its likely only one of them is actually going to be using spores since the rest get overpowered.

 

8 hours ago, lindenbrock said:

Caps at 10, but its hard to hit the cap if all 3 spore spots are taken by another saryn. Cant even infect one enemy if the other saryn already has all 3 spots. Reread my post, its not like the majority of it was complaining about this issue and suggesting ways to fix it. Oh wait...

 

Exactly. Whoever casts and spreads first is the useful saryn, the other has a majority of their damage potential restricted and might as well sit there doing nothing. They can still be useful, but saryn is a god right now and whoever transfers spores first could probably carry without any help at all from the other saryn.

I have never had this problem.  Even assuming it is a real thing, which I doubt due to the high rate of enemy turnover when spores are running, you can still press 4 and do other things besides compete for epeen.  In fact, pressing 4 will probably steal a lot of the other Saryns' kills, so mission accomplished!

[sayntfuu]

14 hours ago, kyori said:

I think your best bet is to request DE to make matchmaking not to include same frame. lol

What a horrible band-aid. Match making should not punish a player for their frame choice.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

A lot of frames have overlap issues that prevent them from working as well together with the same frame. Limbo and Nyx for example. That's just a part of the game that everyone has to deal with occasionally so you'll just have to do the best you can. The last thing DE wants to do is make it so 4 Saryns can easily stack spores together.

Because Saryn is the new reworked go-to you're just going to see it more for a while. Unless she's your main, I'd suggest not using her by default until it dies down.

Edited June 5, 2018 by (PS4)Riko_113

[DjKaplis]

You dont really get less affinity. Affinity is shared equally among team members in range.

If your spores are less effective, you can focus on toxic lash and miasma to help spread other Saryn's spores and help team kill strong priority targets.

 

Sorry, but if you expect to just cast spore and then always get most damage, you are playing her wrong. She never really was about that lazy playstyle. Not against stronger than starchart level enemies anyway.

 

I see so many MR 24+ players playing her in onslaught now yet when I see their profile stats on Saryn it usually says less than 5% usage time. Why. Seems that many people just play her because of that new added damage potential and not because she is fun to play or that they are actually interested to find out more viable builds.

 

All I can say is - she was strong and fun to play before and is even stronger and as fun to play now even if you don't do most damage from all team (by the way she was always among top in damage and kills with the right build so it doesnt happen often that you dont have most damage with her)

[Guest]

Just now, DjKaplis said:

You dont really get less affinity. Affinity is shared equally among team members in range.

Affinity is also shared to your weapon. If you focus farm with Saryn, and put the lens on Saryn, then you wish your spore is the thing doing the killing.

That's why the OP is complaining. His focus farm is getting rekt by another Spore happy Saryn.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Guest

[lindenbrock]

5 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

You dont really get less affinity. Affinity is shared equally among team members in range.

Less damage because a low str saryn has all 3 spore spots filled on most enemies means enemies die slower, meaning less enemies total died during the focus pickup's duration. Less deaths during focus pickup does equal less affinity. Unless numbers just lie and my getting 120k-130k+ normally is a fluke or something, which i doubt as ive been maxing my focus in ESO since saryns last update a few days ago and get consistent numbers every time if im the only saryn. I dont remember the exact number, i probably posted it above, but i got something like 96k in a specific run to wave 12 with another saryn that had max range and 105% str. At 96k per run i would have to do ESO at least 4 times to hit my daily cap. Why is it that when im the only saryn i can easily hit the cap every day with only 2-3 runs, getting my average 120k+ i mentioned? I even managed to hit it in one run yesterday by getting 80k on wave 3 or 4. It couldnt be that i can kill faster, thus racking up more kills in the short duration of the focus buff could it? Nah, no way.

 

5 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

If your spores are less effective, you can focus on toxic lash and miasma to help spread other Saryn's spores and help team kill strong priority targets.

Sorry, but if you expect to just cast spore and then always get most damage, you are playing her wrong. She never really was about that lazy playstyle. Not against stronger than starchart level enemies anyway.

I have constant uptime on lash and run around killing with my crit ignis wraith to transfer spores. The almost 50% extra damage lash gives it, on top of transferring spores, makes it amazing for my focus farm. I dont cast spores and sit there to let them build up and do the killing for me

Edited June 5, 2018 by lindenbrock

[(PSN)Hellhound1637]

Lol I haven't seen this problem with saryn personally. I have dropped into a match with 3 harrows though....fun times. How about when the match starts up if there are 2 or more of the same warframe it gives a prompt, and little menue to change frames or loadouts real quick.