(XB1/PS4) Virtual Cursor Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)FernandoGo_D]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Jaztok said:

That's where you are wrong though. This wasn't change for the sake of change. They did this to unify both PC and Consoles for the sake of putting out easier and faster patches for both. Instead of coding something to PC and a different code to Consoles, it is all the same code now which makes things streamlined and easier to put out content.

Except we are in consoles eith controllers and not with #*!%ing mouses...that ui is for a #*!%ing mouse not a #*!%ing controller

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

From a code perspective, your request is for them to take a clunky system and bolt on a clean system to create an even clunkier system.

The line of thinking they probably went through was something like this (because it's so common in the development world, it's cliche):

1. Product Owner: "People want content updates faster, including a new UI, new quests and new types of activities."
2. Developers: "The current system is clunky and getting clunkier with every new piece of UI we introduce. Changing things up without moving to a unified system is just a recipe for long development times and tons of bugs."
3. Product Owner: "Okay, it's been long enough, let's build out a new UI."
4. Developer A: "Okay, I have some new UI mockups. And the players are liking the new styles."
5. Developer B: "Okay, I'll implement the new framework while you work out the visuals."
6. Developer B: "(Later) Okay, I'm done with the new framework. We can get it in before Tennocon."
7. Developer A: "Okay, I think I'm good as well. Let's target the June release."
8. Developer B: "(Later) Okay, early feedback sent me back to the drawing board on some of the UI and it's not going to be ready before Tennocon."
9. Product Owner: "Okay, what's it going to take to back out the cursor/framework changes?"
10. Tech Lead: "We'll have to throw out a bunch of stuff for Tennocon and Saryn, particle FX and such will have to wait to be re-integrated. Cert will have to be restarted. You're talking about losing months of work."
11. Product Owner: "What happens if we don't back it out?"
12. Developer B: "The cursor changes go in without the new UI. It's going to be really clunky for console users until the new UI comes out. But we might be able to get some d-pad stuff in to mitigate the problem in the short term."
13. Product Owner: "* sigh * Let's do that. Hopefully we'll wow them enough with Tennocon that they'll forgive us."
14. Developers: "Well, there goes my evenings for the next month. But, we'll get it done."
15. (Some) Players: "God, how could DE mess up this bad. Just put it back the way it was."

If it seems like I'm siding with DE on this one, it's because I've been in their shoes a bunch of times. Every eventual bad release is just the least bad thing people could think up at the time the crisis hit. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that their major rework and refactoring didn't go according to plan and it was just them overreaching rather than being bad actors. Ambition is good. This was a game that no one believed in, but their belief in themselves and their dedication made it a success. They'll get back on track. They didn't suddenly become incompetent.

So long as I can toggle off their clunky code that makes me pretend to be using a mouse when I am not, and use the one that's actually optimised for my system, I will be OK with that. 

 

At some point in that line of thinking someone should have rediscovered the concept of beta testing. Hell we both know that half of the console players would probably pay money to beta test the game in return for an exclusive glyph or colour palette for use on the main account. 

[(PSN)Jade_Panther]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Jaztok said:

If those people are getting mad at K&M users on the Ps4, they should be mad at Sony than for making the Ps4 have innate M&K already built in it. All the developers have to do is turn that function on for their games. They are getting mad at something already in the base code for the Ps4.

That very well maybe true however by DE doing what they did destroyed the ease of use just to give those who want to use a kb/m over controllers.

 The ui was perfect for consoles but by trying to turn consoles into pcs was very foolish on their part and thus some are blaming kb/m and pc users because they are feeling DE is favoring them over console/controller users.

Is it fair?, no not really but that is how many are feeling.

Returning to the old UI isn't happening as they made that clear but giving the option return alot of the lost functions will at least repair some damage to the fan base that uses consoles.

[(XBOX)Skyvernn]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Jaztok said:

That's where you are wrong though. This wasn't change for the sake of change. They did this to unify both PC and Consoles for the sake of putting out easier and faster patches for both. Instead of coding something to PC and a different code to Consoles, it is all the same code now which makes things streamlined and easier to put out content.

But at the same time I'm not. Sure unifying the code and the UI will save them for a multitude of things, but where is the input from the console players themselves, PC players stated their problems with this and in a rush before Tennocon DE has thrown this unnecessary change onto consoles. 

Even if this whole ordeal was to change the cert process the speed of cert still comes down to Microsoft/Sony and DE more than PC and console builds. 

I understand the point you're making but ultimately this update came out rushed and is merely unnecessary change 

[(PSN)DANV1KK]

Cursor feels great its just the removal of the hotkeys for arsenal the upgrade/equipt/appearance those are mandatory because we need to be able to do those quickly the trade kiosks needing to press square again is a big pain i know its to confirm selection but something else needs to be made the dragging of mods is a pain clicking and selectiong would be much better tbh thats all i can say the quick name/item click in trade chat makes things a lot faster and easier so hope this helps.

[(PSN)DrHildibrand]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Liyern said:

I'm just worried myself, if this was really to streamline everything then their intention would be so that eventually Ps4/Xb1 and PC will always be running/updating on the same Patch at the same time, right? Cause if they don't, then this seems kind of pointless. (Except for faster patch releases for the console, but if that were the case I'd much rather sacrifice some waiting time then having to deal with the current UI).

I was about to say. Consoles will never get the patches as fast as PC will because of the cert process. What this will do is increase the rate at which they can get the patches to be certified though. I guess that is a trade off they decided to make though. They would rather make some people upset but have faster times to get items to cert instead of the old way which might make some people happy but have slower cert times. There is no win-win situation here, so they picked what they thought would be more fruitful in the end.

[Airwolfen]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

They've hinted as to why before, but to elaborate:

Two systems requires more than just the two systems. It requires code to coordinate the two systems. And it requires a ton of additional QA effort. One of the core ideas was to allow people to seamlessly switch between them -- kind of like how you can in Witcher 3.

So even if you had a picker, you're not done. Now you have two entirely different sets of UI code. Some pieces of UI respond to hover, while other ones respond to click. Some have to list the shortcuts in the right spot and others don't have shortcuts at all. Elements are now variable sized based on whether or not they have to present shortcut buttons.

Control schemes aren't bolted onto the UI -- they are fundamentally part of it. And now they're either maintaining two completely different sets of UI which more than doubles the work... Or they're maintain a host of "if (console)" statements littered throughout the code (they've already stated the latter is the case).

This actually something I do for a living so I'm not just pulling this out of thin air. It's a fundamental issue in UI/UX design and implementation and it's very, very hard to get right. The new UI seems hover focused and so a virtual cursor makes a lot of sense. They're figuring out how to more seamlessly merge the two, but right now we're hitting growing pains.

They probably shouldn't have merged in the code for the new cursor framework before the new UI was fully done, but that decision was probably made months back and it's not something they can walk back without causing even more pain to the players.

Game devs are generally overworked and I would imagine DE follows the general industry trend. It's not a matter of laziness, it's a matter of time and timing. I imagine they've been working their a**es off to get ready for Tennocon.

So they can spend thousands of hours turning back the clock for no net long-term gain. Or much less time making what they have work. That's why it's not an option. It's too costly for too little gain. Better to admit the mistake and move on.

Not as a reaction but more a addition to your post

Direct link: https://twitter.com/sj_sinclair/status/1001172558094524418

That is part of the end goal to the unified controls.

Now its just time to request added features like the arsenal shortcuts.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Airwolfen
Added direct link as twitter tends to break on some browsers here.

[(XBOX)SickWicked]

After ramping up the cursor sensitivity navigating the menus feels much faster and fluid that the old UI. Using the cursor in conjunction with the right stick...   I am now zipping through menus the arsenal and the foundry much faster than I used to.

Its not perfect though... Modding doesn't feel very intuitive with the drag and drop on the controller.  Might take some getting used to but it definitely feels weird.

The other gripe I have is the fly out options in the arsenal for equip, upgrade, and customize either need to be bigger or have their button shortcuts put back.  The virtual cursor is not as precise as a mouse and it can be a little bit of a pain to hover right over the exact option you want to grab in a quick fluid motion.  This can also be said for the matchmaking options.  They are a little tight for cursor navigation as it is.  Also, on the same note can you guys make the Foundry tabs a little bigger as well.. its nice being able to to point and click on the tab I want instead of having to toggle the LB and RB buttons...  but it would be much easier if they were a hair bigger or at least spaced a little differently.

I'm overall pleased with the change.  Hope to see you guys make it better.

Edited June 6, 2018 by (XB1)SickWicked

[(PSN)MATTEOS_PHOTO]

On 2018-06-05 at 11:11 AM, [DE]Danielle said:

The Virtual Cursor is live on XB1 and PS4 in Beasts of the Sanctuary: Update 22.20.6!

To read the full dedicated Dev Workshop head on over to: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/962550-dev-workshop-upcoming-console-virtual-cursor-changes-d-pad-functionality-for-all-platforms/

[Expand spoiler below for changes]

  Reveal hidden contents

 

• Scrolling is now done using the right stick. 
  • Pretty straightforward! Move the stick up to scroll up and down to scroll down, move right for right and move left for left. 
• Moving the new virtual cursor is done by moving the left stick. 
  • The cursor can move freely around any part of the screen, you are not locked to any one menu item as you would be using the D-Pad/Left stick prior to these changes.
• Selecting items within the menus is now done primarily by using your default selection button (unless officially assigned in the UI - Captura for example). 
  • For example: Options in the Arsenal (Equip, Upgrade, Appearance, Abilities) are now all selectable by hovering your cursor over the desired tab and hitting X.
• Windows with fields where you can increase values (ex: Sentient Core redemption at Quill Onkko) will require you to hover over the desired field with your cursor and use the bumpers to increase/decrease values. 
  • The bumper icons will “activate” when you’re hovering over an area to indicate which window bumper activity will affect.
• Interacting with the Modding UI:
  • To equip a Mod select it by hovering your cursor over it and then drag it to a slot by holding down your select button.
  • Once you’re in the slot area you do not need to hold it anymore and will be able to move freely about with the Mod in hand.
  • Want to swap an already equipped Mod with one from your inventory? Drag and drop it over a Mod in your inventory! 
  • Unequipping a Mod is done by hovering over it and using the assigned button (triangle) - so nothing’s changed here!
• You will have the option to change the UI Cursor Sensitivity (speed) in the “Controls” Options to your liking.
• D-Pad interacts with the virtual cursor in the following ways: 
  • You can swap back and forth from the virtual cursor (and from keyboard/mouse inputs) using the left stick to using the D-Pad . 
    • The virtual cursor will travel with the D-Pad movement.
  • Using the D-Pad will snap your cursor to whatever button is nearest to it at that time.
  • This is also dependent on which directional button (up/down, left/right) you press. 
  • Scrolling will still be done by using your right-stick - the D-Pad will traverse over UI items but will not scroll if you motion to the edge of a menu.  

 

We will be closely monitoring your feedback/bug reports! These are some big changes, so we understand it will be quite jarring when you first get to moving around the UI. But with that said, we really do appreciate your constructive feedback so that we know where we can improve. If you are reporting a bug, provide screenshot/video where possible. 

Thank you for your time as Warframe continues to develop!

---

Known issues and notes! 

• D-Pad not working on World State Window - will be implemented in a future update!
• Can't rotate items in the Market   
• D-Pad skipping over items in menu lists - will be fixed in a future update! 
• Scrolling with the D-Pad - working to see if we can implement in a future update! 
• Missing tool-tip for load-out from Navigation screen - working on a fix! 
• Cannot interact with touch pad controls in the customize controller menu - working on a fix! 
• Several issues with the new fishing UI - working on a fix!

We do not have a mouse attached to our Consoles like PC...I can not do anything in the game anymore, Cursor makes everything take 10 times longer to build or select mods...Please take off the Cursor for Consoles...there is no need or want for a cursor on Consoles 

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So long as I can toggle off their clunky code that makes me pretend to be using a mouse when I am not, and use the one that's actually optimised for my system, I will be OK with that. 

 

At some point in that line of thinking someone should have rediscovered the concept of beta testing. Hell we both know that half of the console players would probably pay money to beta test the game in return for an exclusive glyph or colour palette for use on the main account. 

The problem is that lots of things have already been built on top of it -- and not just UI. Code is kind of like a living thing. Changes sit on top of more changes and you can go back to an earlier time, but everything after that point is lost. So it really depends on when this code was originally integrated. If it was 6 months ago, that's six months of changes lost forever.

Also it was tested. And we got the changes to the d-pad we got because of it. But at some point you run out of time and you have to move forward with what you have and mitigate the problems as best you can.

They could have delayed everything (including Saryn, FX particles, etc), but they took a calculated risk. It might not have been the right decision, but it's where we're at.

Toggling isn't going to be an option. Not unless the community decides it wants to forgo other updates for months and months. And frankly, they already get enough complaints about lack of content.

[(PSN)MATTEOS_PHOTO]

Dont give us a half baked idea, you have been doing great with the changes and the updates and this game...Please dont go backwards and ruin it for all consoles and player...if its not broke dont fit it...Now I need to see if I can add a mouse to my PS4 bc I cant do anything in my ship

[(XBOX)Skyvernn]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Jaztok said:

I was about to say. Consoles will never get the patches as fast as PC will because of the cert process. What this will do is increase the rate at which they can get the patches to be certified though. I guess that is a trade off they decided to make though. They would rather make some people upset but have faster times to get items to cert instead of the old way which might make some people happy but have slower cert times. There is no win-win situation here, so they picked what they thought would be more fruitful in the end.

By 'some people upset' the reality of that comment is much larger than some, this thread and twitter is more than a decent indicator that roughly 2/7 actually will tolerate this change. We've always been slower than PC for updates and this won't change for a long time. You only have to look at other games to see this. 

While sure you can argue that there is a no 'win-win' situation the overall outcome of this mess that's been created is that the majority would rather wait longer than being forced into a system they don't like. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by (XB1)Dova Seniorious

[(PSN)Arc1723]

It's unfortunate that I enjoyed playing warframe, and now I don't. Previously if I didn't enjoy an aspect of the game I could simply avoid it, or like mining, get a booster and grind it out of the way. This is unavoidable. Quick taps have become an exercise in frustration. A quick flip back and forth was part of the process, and now I dread even "going home" to the orbiter. The inner cynic in me genuinely doubts whatever is coming is worth learning to put up with this. And that's all it would be in my case. 

 

As a side note, it seems just a but shady making between match shuffling take longer when they make money on timed boosters. Not saying, just saying.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)FurryZenJustice said:

They've hinted as to why before, but to elaborate:

Two systems requires more than just the two systems. It requires code to coordinate the two systems. And it requires a ton of additional QA effort. One of the core ideas was to allow people to seamlessly switch between them -- kind of like how you can in Witcher 3.

So even if you had a picker, you're not done. Now you have two entirely different sets of UI code. Some pieces of UI respond to hover, while other ones respond to click. Some have to list the shortcuts in the right spot and others don't have shortcuts at all. Elements are now variable sized based on whether or not they have to present shortcut buttons.

Control schemes aren't bolted onto the UI -- they are fundamentally part of it. And now they're either maintaining two completely different sets of UI which more than doubles the work... Or they're maintain a host of "if (console)" statements littered throughout the code (they've already stated the latter is the case).

This actually something I do for a living so I'm not just pulling this out of thin air. It's a fundamental issue in UI/UX design and implementation and it's very, very hard to get right. The new UI seems hover focused and so a virtual cursor makes a lot of sense. They're figuring out how to more seamlessly merge the two, but right now we're hitting growing pains.

They probably shouldn't have merged in the code for the new cursor framework before the new UI was fully done, but that decision was probably made months back and it's not something they can walk back without causing even more pain to the players.

Game devs are generally overworked and I would imagine DE follows the general industry trend. It's not a matter of laziness, it's a matter of time and timing. I imagine they've been working their a**es off to get ready for Tennocon.

So they can spend thousands of hours turning back the clock for no net long-term gain. Or much less time making what they have work. That's why it's not an option. It's too costly for too little gain. Better to admit the mistake and move on.

So in a nutshell you're suggesting that it cannot happen because it will take a lot of work and they'd have to add stuff to the code to make it work. 

 

And you're suggesting this about the game Warframe, a game that has as its hallmark, the fact that they're constantly working on adding new things to make the game better for users? 

I dunno man, something seems off about that logic. 

 

Also, since you listed some of the things that they'd have to do, please consider if those changes would really be so terribly difficult, as half of what you said was cosmetic for what are essentially static screens, compared to, oh I don't know having multiple colour options on multiple skins with multiple attachments on mobile frameworks that move in multiple axes on multiple surfaces on multiple tilesets hopefully without anything clipping........ 

Yeah. Doesn't seem so very insurmountable any more, right? 

 

[(XBOX)Foxhearth]

I can understand why y’all trying to make the ui cross platform universal. I assume it has something to do with the reason console is always behind the pc.. but y’all got to at least add the short cuts back or make it optional I’d rather lag behind in updates then use a pc mouse keyboard system on a controller. Also side note 6 crashes since the update two from popping In Tenno form the rest with end of mission. Besides the mouse fiasco y’all did amazing with the new particle effects and lighting in the dojo! The game is beautiful.. we’re ya trying to distract us with the shinny graphics hehe.. also can’t check mission progress in a second or two anymore mid mission takes to long( before up twice A look then B twice and back in the fight) overall the update is bitter sweet and is game breaking for me..

[(PSN)DrHildibrand]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)Dova Seniorious said:

But at the same time I'm not. Sure unifying the code and the UI will save them for a multitude of things, but where is the input from the console players themselves, PC players stated their problems with this and in a rush before Tennocon DE has thrown this unnecessary change onto consoles. 

Even if this whole ordeal was to change the cert process the speed of cert still comes down to Microsoft/Sony and DE more than PC and console builds. 

I understand the point you're making but ultimately this update came out rushed and is merely unnecessary change 

I am not saying rushing it like they did was a good thing, and it should have been tested more. It would have happened eventually though. I figure they may have just said "well, we may as well put it now, and fix the issues as they come along" instead of waiting to do it for various reasons.

I know it eventually comes down to Microsoft/Sony, but they probably figured it was worth the risk in the end to do it this way.

[(PSN)Jade_Panther]

Lets face it at the end of the day they are trying to turn the PlayStation and xbox into a PC, the problem is they are not computers and what works on a pc will never work well on a console as we are seeing now.

[(PSN)FurryZenJustice]

The argument that PC and console can't have a merged interface is kind of lacking. There are plenty of games that do a good job of this and we already have mouse-centric interfaces in the game (i.e. chat, browser, and navigation). The issue isn't that consoles can't have mouse-based interfaces (Destiny has one and it's quite effective). It's that the current interface isn't good with a mouse. The proposed UI looks much more mouse friendly. And frankly the idea of being stuck with d-pad for the navigation screen is painful to think about.

[(PSN)HotdogHollow]

This cursor makes trade chat more irritating than it normally is. The amount of time it takes to find someone’s name is infuriating. It got to the point of where I closed the game and don’t plan on opening it back up until something is fixed. There was and still isn’t any need for this cursor. There was nothing wrong with how it was before. 

[(XBOX)Lycentia]

I managed to adapt pretty quickly to the changes. However that does not mean I like them. This is a console, not a PC. We do not have a mouse/keyboard option, which is where cursor UIs work best. Using a thumb stick to scroll is slow and clunky, no matter how much you boost up the speed.
That said, since you have no intention of changing it, here are a few suggestions/feedback:

When using the d-pad, the cursor should jump over, not slide. This animation just slows things down. D-pad navigation should also scroll when I go up/down the list. This is just common sense.

When bringing up some menus, among other things, have the cursor immediately jump to the the first option. The [start] menu(s), the inbox, navigation menus, when I open the special mission box, planet location mission boxes (ie. normal, alert, invasion, etc).

In the Arsenal, just let me select the main box to change my equipped frame/weapons etc. Why, why, why, did you put a separate box for this? Who thought this was a good idea? It was unnecessary. And would you at least consider putting the hotkeys back.

Please fix the bumper switch in the mod equip screen. This frequently stops working for some reason.

Change the left/right on the right stick to rotate previews, regardless of where the cursor is. You only need the up/down to scroll through the lists. This is just a real inconvenience, and makes going through items take a silly amount of time. Having to scroll to an item, then scroll over to rotate the preview, then scroll back to the the items.

 

I suppose this will just get lost in the sea here, but these are some of the most glaring problems imo.

[(PSN)Arc1723]

Addn: who dropped the ball and certified this?

[(PSN)MATTEOS_PHOTO]

Been playing since almost 2014, guess the game had to die eventually...RIP Warframe @[DE]Danielle

[(XBOX)Nepharian]

CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK: The biggest problem is the lack of button shortcuts, if you are looking for a place to start I would suggest adding the button shortcuts back in. If you want it to be unified with PC, add shortcuts there too. Keyboard shortcuts are just as efficient as controller shortcuts, and i'm sure the PC community would appreciate it. I mean, how many people use the right-click context menu to copy and paste instead of using ctrl+c, ctrl+v. The directional pad snapping to interactable sections of the interface is fine, and the use of the cursor is fine too, as long as I can simply hover over and option and then press a shortcut rather than selecting from a context menu, that's fine.

OPINION: I appreciate the INTENT behind this UI, to get us new patches sooner. Great idea! This is VERY poor execution of that idea. This is, by far, the worst UI I have ever had the misfortune of dealing with. At first I thought it was just that I wasn't used to it, but after sticking with it and giving it an honest chance I have come to the conclusion that it is strictly worse in every way. You should IMMEDIATELY put us back to the old UI system and go back to the drawing board for how you can unify the UI between console and PC.

[(PSN)DrHildibrand]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)Dova Seniorious said:

By 'some people upset' the reality of that comment is much larger than some, this thread and twitter is more than a decent indicator that roughly 2/7 actually will tolerate this change. We've always been slower than PC for updates and this won't change for a long time. You only have to look at other games to see this. 

While sure you can argue that there is a no 'win-win' situation the overall outcome of this mess that's been created is that the majority would rather wait longer than being forced into a system they don't like. 

I don't like speaking for the majority or minority when I write, so I use words like "some people" because the truth of the matter is we don't know what the actual percentage is that likes/dislikes it. Going by forums/social media is not accurate because he who screams louder doesn't always represent the true numbers of the situation. Only a pole with fair options and enough time can get close to what is majority/minority. With that being said, you have no basis that the "majority" want it back the old way because there is no concrete scientific data to back the claim. Not trying to sound rude, but it's the reality of the situation.

Either way, the decision was made, so all DE has to do now is fix the situation as best they can.

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

7 hours ago, (XB1)R3d P01nt said:

Which is why it's weird they would go ahead with the changes.  PC tenno who use controllers were already giving them negative feedback.  And, if they had ever tried it themselves, they would know how clunky and awkward it is to try to use a controller as a mouse.  This update to the UI just leaves me shaking my head.  For the vast majority of things we do in the game, the old system is simply, objectively better.  I'm sure we'll get used to the new system, but why should we have to get used to a system that is just not as good as what we were already used to?

My only hypothesis to that is that they were trying to prime us for the big UI changes.  However it seems the real reason was to reduce cert times according to Steve Sinclairs Twitter:

So there's the answer, even if its not one I'm particularly fond of.