Khora's whip

[AreeSoothsayer]

After watching the devstream about the changed to weapons like Valkyr's hysteria I notice they didn't mention Khora's whip. It's not active all the time with energy drain but it uses melee mods like they do. Anyone know if they will do the same for her Whip like they do for the... eh built in weapons on a few of the warframes?

[Acersecomic]

Khora's whip is not an exhalted weapon. Just like Atlas's fists it's only an ability that benefits from melee mods.

[Koldraxon-732]

Exalted weapons are ones such as Valkyr's Exalted Claws, Excalibur's Exalted Blade, Ivara's Artemis bow, and Mesa's dual pistols.

Non-Exalted ability-weapons like Chroma's Spectral Scream, Excalibur's other abilities, Nidus' 1, Volt's 1, Gara's 1, and so on, while they do borrow from weapon mods, they are not 4s, and are not in use to the extent or potential Exalted weapons are. What DE's doing is ensuring people have more ways to fight back for when they can't get energy for their Exalted weapon due to energy leeching units.

[LightningsVengance]

24 minutes ago, Acersecomic said:

Atlas's fists

One puuuuuuuuuuuuuuUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[DreamsmithJane]

One can hope. It's also worth asking whether such abilities will be rebalanced when the melee combo system changes. Whipclaw gains a lot of damage from the combo multiplier, currently.

16 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

Khora's whip is not an exhalted weapon. Just like Atlas's fists it's only an ability that benefits from melee mods.

But that's the entire point. The whole reason for giving "abilities that benefit from mods" their own arsenal slot and mod loadout is to avoid forcing the frame in question to be used together with specific weapons (or, in Khora's case, a specific companion), just for the associated mods. For what reason would Atlas not also be allowed to mod his ability? Just because it's not channeled?

16 hours ago, Koldraxon-732 said:

Non-Exalted ability-weapons like Chroma's Spectral Scream, Excalibur's other abilities, Nidus' 1, Volt's 1, Gara's 1, and so on, while they do borrow from weapon mods, they are not 4s, and are not in use to the extent or potential Exalted weapons are.

Chroma, Nidus, and Volt do not borrow weapon mods for their abilities. Atlas, Excalibur, Gara, and Khora's 1 abilities do. They "are not 4s"? So what? Neither is Venari. Why should it matter which button you press to activate the ability? Have you played those frames? Khora's whip and Atlas' punch are used just as much as Exalted Blade.

 

[AreeSoothsayer]

I do hope they see this and give us the option to do so. I would love to have seperate mod setups for my melee, which I main, and Khora's whip. I use Boltace, a 10% crit weapon. Whipclaw is 25% crit. I currently use a status build for my melee while the whipclaw would heavilty benefit from a critical build. 

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

In all likelihood they pulled the exulted whip because they were sick of hearing crybabies tantrum about the freaking meta.... Which other than make the game less enjoyable for legit players, the nerf has done nothing to stop exploiters. Great on you there...

Odds are ultimately the whip will come back and be as you describe it. Mostly because her four is trash... Not Limbo levels of trash prime, but still trash.

[Acersecomic]

18 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

 For what reason would Atlas not also be allowed to mod his ability? Just because it's not channeled?

 

That's the current reasoning, yes. It's not a whole weapon in itself yet. Btw, should we mod Ember's Fireball as well? And other such abilities or do we discriminate against them?

Channeled frame weapons are exhalted weapons.  That's it. They get modded. Other's are just abilities that benefit from mods for the sake of scaling.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Acersecomic

[AreeSoothsayer]

4 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

That's the current reasoning, yes. It's not a whole weapon in itself yet. Btw, should we mod Ember's Fireball as well? And other such abilities or do we discriminate against them?

Channeled frame weapons are exhalted weapons.  That's it. They get modded. Other's are just abilities that benefit from mods for the sake of scaling.

A fireball... Only fireball I know you can hold in your hand is the candy. I can hold a whip in my hand.

[Acersecomic]

16 minutes ago, AreeSoothsayer said:

A fireball... Only fireball I know you can hold in your hand is the candy. I can hold a whip in my hand.

Both are single-cast weapons/abilities with a small AoE 😛 My point is  that there has to be a discernable thing about it. If it was an exhalted whip then yes, but it's not. It is not a separate weapon, it's an ability. Therefore it scales off of mods but doesn't demand a unique mod station because why?!?!? It's just a single cast spamable ability, not a channeled ability.

[AreeSoothsayer]

Any ability using mods that are not warframe mods but primary, secondary, or melee mods should be included.

[DreamsmithJane]

9 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

That's the current reasoning, yes. It's not a whole weapon in itself yet. Btw, should we mod Ember's Fireball as well? And other such abilities or do we discriminate against them?

Channeled frame weapons are exhalted weapons.  That's it. They get modded. Other's are just abilities that benefit from mods for the sake of scaling.

5 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

Both are single-cast weapons/abilities with a small AoE 😛 My point is  that there has to be a discernable thing about it. If it was an exhalted whip then yes, but it's not. It is not a separate weapon, it's an ability. Therefore it scales off of mods but doesn't demand a unique mod station because why?!?!? It's just a single cast spamable ability, not a channeled ability.

No, that's not "reasoning". There's no reasoning involved in that assertion. The entire reason that exalted abilities are getting an arsenal slot in the first place is that they can be modded, not because they're channeled. There is no actual reason for moddable single-cast abilities not to receive the same treatment as channeled ones. The only real questions are whether there is room in the arsenal for both Venari and Whipclaw to be added, and whether this change to weapon-type abilities is worth the extra forma cost and build complexity.

Ember's Fireball does not inherit mods and doesn't involve a physical weapon which could conceivably be modded in the same way as other weapons in the arsenal, so it doesn't need a slot for modding. I'm trying not to be annoyed that you would even make such a dishonest argument, since they are obviously not the same thing. Other abilities benefit from weapon mods because they're used like weapons, not just for scaling. Virulence scales, and so does Maim (a channeled ability), but neither of them gets an arsenal slot, because they don't use weapon mods.

Channeled or single cast doesn't matter. It's the mods. The mods are the "discernible thing". The purpose of this change would be to uncouple abilities from weapons, so players aren't forced to mod their weapons in a sub-optimal way in order to maximize their abilities, nor vice versa, nor to equip weapons that are compatible with the same mods as their abilities. That concept applies equally to Exalted Blade, Artemis Bow, Peacemaker, and Whipclaw. It's to get rid of "stat sticks", and if you think Atlas, Gara, and Khora don't have that problem just as much as exalted weapon users, you're mistaken.

[Acersecomic]

2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

EDIT: lots of stuff, reffer to post above :EDIT

Any exhalted weapons that do not channel?

[DreamsmithJane]

26 minutes ago, Acersecomic said:

Any exhalted weapons that do not channel?

Are you ever going to stop asking loaded, misleading, rhetorical questions? I said what I had to say.

[Acersecomic]

8 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Are you ever going to stop asking loaded, misleading, rhetorical questions? I said what I had to say.

And it doesn't make you any more in the right or wrong. It is very simple, even Steve Wonder can see it. Exhalted weapons are channeled frame weapons as their 4th ability, summoning a special weapon.

A whip is just a castable ability like Fireball and other offensive 1st ability cast abilities. Reason it scales off of melee mods is because it's a weapon, and not just a power cast, however it is not a channeled ability like Exalted Sword and such.

Everything is as clear as day.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Acersecomic

[FreeWilliam]

On 2018-06-05 at 7:36 PM, LightningsVengance said:

One puuuuuuuuuuuuuuUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

TWO Punch (and never three unless it's a dropship)

I dislike when my playthings leave right when I'm having fun. I'd kill for a mod that turns the third punch into a variant of Valkyr's Prolonged Paralysis but we punch the ground so hard everything falls into the valley.

[DreamsmithJane]

12 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

Exhalted weapons are channeled frame weapons as their 4th ability, summoning a special weapon.

Okay, fine, I'll answer. There is only one exalted weapon. That is Exalted Blade. Everything else is extrapolated from that based on similarity. It's not even an official designation, but just a term used for convenience. You are arguing that game mechanics should be designed based on arbitrary semantics, rather than any practical concerns. That doesn't make any sense. The reason I got snippy about your rhetorical question is that it implies I haven't considered what counts as an exalted weapon, but the truth is that it doesn't matter. The same applies to your question about Ember's Fireball; it implies whatever standards are applied to it should also be applied to every single-cast offensive ability, even though it is obviously not the same thing. No, I would not argue that Fireball needs its own mod space, but again, it doesn't matter. You keep asking these questions with obvious answers, as if the answers will somehow support your argument, but they don't. This unwillingness to say what you mean implies that you expect reason to guide everyone else to your point of view, but that's not going to happen, because you haven't presented a reasonable point of view.

The designation of "exalted weapon" and whether something is single-cast or channeled are not relevant factors in determining what should get its own mods. The fact that something benefits from mods is. There is no reason for providing channeled/"exalted" weapon abilities with their own mod space that doesn't also apply to single-cast abilities with weapon mod scaling.

12 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

A whip is just a castable ability like Fireball and other offensive 1st ability cast abilities. Reason it scales off of melee mods is because it's a weapon, and not just a power cast, however it is not a channeled ability like Exalted Sword and such.

Everything is as clear as day.

Yes, that's what I said: Whipclaw is single-cast, but it's a weapon. And the reason it should be allowed its own mod space is because it scales with mods like other weapons, while the reverse is the reason Fireball doesn't need one.

Everything is clear as day. We agree on the facts, but you're pushing a conclusion that contradicts those facts entirely, and you act like I'm the one being unreasonable. What am I supposed to do with that?

[Acersecomic]

Whatever floats your boat. You're the one getting annoyined and argumentative while I'm here at peace and happy.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

I would not be opposed to seeing Khora’s kit changed slightly. 

• “Venari” is her Power 1. Nothing changes here, neither the cost to summon her if she dies in battle.
• Power 2 remains the same. Maybe offering another instance of propagation when Whipclaw is used on it (for a total of 3 at max rank).
• Power 3 is Strangledome. No real change to this ability.
• Power 4 is Whipclaw as an Exalted weapon ability. A new whip stance made for Whipclaw is embedded to it.

Give her the pseudo Excalibur treatment when he got Exalted Blade and Super Jump was removed. Just a sorting of Khora’s kit with some Powers shifted around. I feel that this would definitely give her the boost she needs.

Edited June 9, 2018 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23