Umbra is bad design.

[artemisfortune]

4 minutes ago, CupcakesMoo said:

From which source?

Think about it like this: On ship if they had just allowed Excal Prime's cosmetics to be used on Excal Umbra, at most you'd see a void key glued to an Excal helmet with a flowing scarf every once in awhile. This appeases the founders who want to show off they have Excal Prime for whatever reason. This wouldn't change the exclusivity of Excal Prime nor would it change what Umbra represents for the rest of the community, even if I don't agree with how Umbra was released. The only people who would be upset right now are the people who already hold backwards grudges over Founders for being Founders. That's like being upset at someone for buying a grill at a lower price than you did because they got it while it was on sale and you didn't.

edit: 

-snip-

case in point. Here's a fine example of someone who already holds a grudge against founders. Had they allowed Excal Prime's cosmetics on ship then it wouldn't have really done anything more to people like this.

Edited June 23, 2018 by Pent_

[NightBlitz]

while im not adverse to making any future Umbras have greater variance from the normal/prime versions, in excal's case it best for him to be the way he is. if you change them too much they might as well make a new frame, not a variant,  after all

[Marvelous_A]

7 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

I don't argue with the logic, but I do think a lot of the backlash could have been lessened had they just allowed prime cosmetics to be added to Umbral frames.

DE put themselves in sticky situation again the moment they decided to take away the prime passive from Umbra and said "Umbra is not prime". The best way is to leave it an unspoken prime and allow cosmetic interchange, which will make sense coz they're both primes. Now if DE allow prime cosmetic on a non-prime Umbra they will again get a lot of backlash from community. The best way will be giving the prime passive back and allow prime cosmetic interchange for now.

Edited June 23, 2018 by Marvelous_A

[CupcakesMoo]

5 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

Think about it like this: On ship if they had just allowed Excal Prime's cosmetics to be used on Excal Umbra, at most you'd see a void key glued to an Excal helmet with a flowing scarf every once in awhile. This appeases the founders who want to show off they have Excal Prime for whatever reason. This wouldn't change the exclusivity of Excal Prime nor would it change what Umbra represents for the rest of the community, even if I don't agree with how Umbra was released. The only people who would be upset right now are the people who already hold backwards grudges over Founders for being Founders. That's like being upset at someone for buying a grill at a lower price than you did because they got it while it was on sale and you didn't.

Yes it would lessen whats happening. But the occurance of these threads shows a problem from long ago that never got fixed. I would agree that it cant just be about umbra. 

As someone was so quick to point out I came in just recently. I did not care about founders and then somehow ended up throwing rocks into an established fight cloud. 

Edited June 23, 2018 by CupcakesMoo

[Voltage]

3 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

DE put themselves in sticky situation again the moment they decided to take away the prime passive from Umbra and said "Umbra is not prime". The best way is to leave it an unspoken prime and allow cosmetic interchange, which will make sense coz they're both primes. Now if DE allow prime cosmetic on a non-prime Umbra they will again get a lot of backlash from community. The best way will be giving the prime passive back and allow prime cosmetic interchange for now.

Where has it been stated that Umbra cannot use Prime cosmetics? More importantly, why do people believe Umbras being "non-prime" put it at the same level as normal Excalibur? This issue is easily solvable and people are using their imagination to try and counter such a universally positive change. Umbra is not a Prime, it is an Umbra. Umbras do not get Prime passives. Umbras should have access to Prime cosmetics for the betterment of the Warframe player base. The Death Orb passive is irrelevant to this discussion. Umbra is meant to be special. We should treat him as such and allow this new variant to wield the cosmetic of Prime Warframes.

Edited June 23, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[Lion]

9 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

edit: 

case in point. Here's a fine example of someone who already holds a grudge against founders. Had they allowed Excal Prime's cosmetics on ship then it wouldn't have really done anything more to people like this.

I don't hold any grudge against founders. I'm thankful for you guys who helped keep the game alive in the beginning.

I am however, tired of seeing threads like:

These are popping up daily and it's tiresome.

Edited June 23, 2018 by Blade

[artemisfortune]

2 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

DE put themselves in sticky situation again the moment they decided to take away the prime passive from Umbra and said "Umbra is not prime". The best way is to leave it an unspoken prime and allow cosmetic interchange, which will make sense coz they're both primes. Now if DE allow prime cosmetic on a non-prime Umbra they will again get a lot of backlash from community. The best way will be giving the prime passive back and allow prime cosmetic interchange for now.

I mean I would have been fine with keeping the passive too because it's next to worthless. I was even puzzled on why they removed it. My theory is that Umbra took Excal Prime's codebase and they edited it to fit what they needed but I can't prove that, it's just conjecture. And I agree, just give the passive back and allow all Umbral Frames to use prime cosmetics and have the prime passive. I mean hell, he looks more prime than Excal Prime does.

[Marvelous_A]

2 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Where has it been stated that Umbra cannot use Prime cosmetics? More importantly, why do people believe Umbras being "non-prime" put it at the same level as normal Excalibur? This issue is easily solvable and people are using their imagination to try and counter such a universally positive change. Umbra is not a Prime, it is an Umbra. Umbras do not get Prime passives. Umbras should have access to Prime cosmetics for the betterment of the Warframe player base.

I like your logic, but community doesn't talk logic. Why don't just give community a next to nothing benefit and give founders what they want too so that both sides are happy? I don't see how is it doing any harm to anyone.

Edited June 23, 2018 by Marvelous_A

[artemisfortune]

1 minute ago, Blade said:

I don't hold any grudge against founders. I'm thankful for you guys who helped keep the game alive in yhe beginning.

I am however, tired of seeing threads like:

These are popping up daily and it's tiresome.

I do agree that his reasoning is pretty lame.

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, Blade said:

I don't hold any grudge against founders. I'm thankful for you guys who helped keep the game alive in yhe beginning.

I am however, tired of seeing threads like:

These are popping up daily and it's tiresome.

 

Both this OP and that OP have different issues with Umbra. This one is that it provides nothing new and because it sets a bad standard for future Umbra frames, that one is just distaste with how he compares to Excalibur Prime because of the fact they're a Founder. You entered the thread with preconceived ideas on the OP.

[Voltage]

10 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

I like your logic, but community doesn't talk logic. Why don't just give community a next to nothing benefit and give founders what they want too so that both sides are happy?

The community should talk logic with their personal opinion, not with emotions and outrage. In this current moment, non-Founders would not recieve anything from this change. However, this paves the way for vast improvements to customization of appearances for Umbra Warframes. Stop thinking there are two sides. There should be no sides. Everyone here is a Warframe player. Whether you started in 2013 or last week, you are equally valuable to this game. As such, Digital Extremes should release improvements that benefit everyone, not just a single group of players. The issue here is lack of collaboration on inherently positive changes to the game. The idea of allowing Umbra Warframe variants to wield Prime cosmetics is universally positive.

Edited June 23, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[Lion]

1 minute ago, LazerSkink said:

 

Both this OP and that OP have different issues with Umbra. This one is that it provides nothing new and because it sets a bad standard for future Umbra frames, that one is just distaste with how he compares to Excalibur Prime because of the fact they're a Founder. You entered the thread with preconceived ideas on the OP.

That's fair. I didn't really read the post - mostly just read the title and checked the OP's profile and drew a conclusion based on that alone.

[LSG501]

1... What did you expect, it's called excalibur, not a new frame...

2... Most non founders would love to grind for a prime excalibur... oh wait we can't so not sure your reasoning for this one, we all pretty much assume there will be farming for later umbra frames, even though most of us like the fact we didn't need to level it...

3... The frame is not powercreep... the stats are the same for umbra as they are for prime excal.  The mods could be seen as power creep but they can be used on any frame at present if you can make the space for them. 

4... it's excalibur, if they make it so different so as not to be the same just because it's umbra then it's not technically excalibur anymore.

5... In all honesty that just sounds like a salty founder.  Why does it matter how it got given out, EVERYONE got it the exact same way and it was a refreshing change to all the grind in the game.

Edited June 23, 2018 by LSG501

[----Legacy----]

13 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

There is nothing wrong with using an exclusive package to fund a project. It was very smart in my opinion and it helped shape what we have today. What you call desperate is what I call brilliant. You are assuming that removing the founders package with some smaller adjustments would net the same result of 5 years of development. I disagree on that heavily. Many players have contributed to the success of this game and it all started with Founders and the first platinum purchases.

Steve himself said how bad he feels for everytime he is asked for founder gear and has to say "no", he also showed regret over the handling of founder gear and recognized that it was really shortsighted offering like a once in a lifetime deal, decision that was born only because they were in a really desperate moment where even toigh warframe was slowly growing,  they still didn't expect it to last longer than 18 months. Given the amount of issues created by this pack, i would say that it's handling has been far from "brilliant", otherwise threads like this one, toxic founders speaking from high horses, non-founders hating founders just because of reasons, and the huge split in the community between haves and have-nots (with their defenders) wouldn't even exist.

 

[Marvelous_A]

1 minute ago, --Q--Voltage said:

In this current moment, non-Founders would not recieve anything from this change. However, this paves the way for vast improvements to customization of appearances for Umbra Warframes. Stop thinking there are two sides. There should be no sides. Everyone here is a Warframe player. Whether you started in 2013 or last week, you are equally valuable to this game. As such, Digital Extremes should release improvements that benefit everyone, not just a single group of players. The issue here is lack of collaboration on inherently positive changes to the game.

Good reasoning but all these are going to drain if what they do will lead to only more backlash from majority of community. Actually it's more likely that DE leaves everything as it currently is coz only backlash will come at this moment for whatever change they make. Most players don't care about future Umbras given we hardly have a silhouette of how they will remotely be.

[artemisfortune]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

1... What did you expect, it's called excalibur, not a new frame...

2... Most non founders would love to grind for a prime excalibur... oh wait we can't so not sure your reasoning for this one, we all pretty much assume there will be farming for later umbra frames, even though most of us like the fact we didn't need to level it...

3... The frame is not powercreep... the stats are the same for umbra as prime.  The mods could be seen as power creep but and they can be used on any frame at present if you can make the space for them. 

4... it's excalibur, if they make it so different so as not to be the same just because it's umbra then it's not technically excalibur anymore.

5... In all honesty that just sounds like a salty founder.  Why does it matter how it got given out, EVERYONE got it the exact same way and it was a refreshing change to all the grind in the game.

Here we go again. Ready friends?

1. We expect what DE said, new systems and gameplay revolving around Umbra, even points where they said "Umbra won't be a copy of the frame."

2. As a vet, the only thing his long awaited update gave me to do was an hour long, underwhelming quest, that's where our disdain for that comes from.

3. It's still powercreep no matter how you spin it. Excal Prime was given a pity buff that exacerbated the problem. It's still powercreep.

4. It could still be a sword based frame without being a carbon copy. Imagine the possibilities we could have had. Imagine if instead of just what we got, his third ability allowed you to swap between exalted sword types. Like onehanded, nikana, two handed, and rapier, and if slash dash altered slightly based on which one you had, his 4 being a moveset based on what weapon type and his two open to interpretation. Or maybe have a skill tree that alters his abilities. There were options they had they they neglected for no conceivable reason other than either lack of creativity, fear of community backlash which they got anyway, or maybe just plain laziness. Who knows at this point?

5. Because there was no thrill in working for it. It's the same principle on earning something vs being given something. If you earn it it's usually all the more sweeter than if it's just handed to you.

[Voltage]

12 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Steve himself said how bad he feels for everytime he is asked for founder gear and has to say "no", he also showed regret over the handling of founder gear and recognized that it was really shortsighted offering like a once in a lifetime deal, decision that was born only because they were in a really desperate moment where even toigh warframe was slowly growing,  they still didn't expect it to last longer than 18 months. Given the amount of issues created by this pack, i would say that it's handling has been far from "brilliant", otherwise threads like this one, toxic founders speaking from high horses, non-founders hating founders just because of reasons, and the huge split in the community between haves and have-nots (with their defenders) wouldn't even exist.

Regretful decisions aren't always the wrong decisions. Toxicity is not exclusive to Founders. This is what I pointed at earlier. People, including yourself, are categorizing others: Non-Founder vs Founder. Just say this: "Many Warframe players of different backgrounds are being disrespectful and toxic towards others over various haves and have-nots".

11 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Good reasoning but all these are going to drain if what they do will lead to only more backlash from majority of community. Actually it's more likely that DE leaves everything as it currently is coz only backlash will come at this moment for whatever change they make. Most players don't care about future Umbras given we hardly have a silhouette of how they will remotely be.

I think you are wrong about that. People are giving up and jumping at each others throats instead of grouping together with a common goal. This is why we don't have universal vacuum. We meet Digital Extremes with disrespect and hostility and then expect universally positive changes. That is not how it works. I believe Digital Extremes would consider this decision if players step back and contribute as a collective party.

Edited June 23, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[LSG501]

12 minutes ago, Pent_ said:

Here we go again. Ready friends?

1. We expect what DE said, new systems and gameplay revolving around Umbra, even points where they said "Umbra won't be a copy of the frame." 

2. As a vet, the only thing his long awaited update gave me to do was an hour long, underwhelming quest, that's where our disdain for that comes from.

3. It's still powercreep no matter how you spin it. Excal Prime was given a pity buff that exacerbated the problem. It's still powercreep. 

4. It could still be a sword based frame without being a carbon copy. Imagine the possibilities we could have had. Imagine if instead of just what we got, his third ability allowed you to swap between exalted sword types. Like onehanded, nikana, two handed, and rapier, and if slash dash altered slightly based on which one you had, his 4 being a moveset based on what weapon type and his two open to interpretation. Or maybe have a skill tree that alters his abilities. There were options they had they they neglected for no conceivable reason other than either lack of creativity, fear of community backlash which they got anyway, or maybe just plain laziness. Who knows at this point?

5. Because there was no thrill in working for it. It's the same principle on earning something vs being given something. If you earn it it's usually all the more sweeter than if it's just handed to you.

1.. We have tennocon coming up and DE have said they have stuff to tell us they want to keep secret in recent devstreams.  We already know the new mods introduce sentient resistance or bonus damage so maybe wait until after tennocon before saying that there's nothing new being introduced.

2.. I never said the quest was any good, I thought it was incredibly long winded and could have been done in half the time if not less.

3.. But people are saying excal umbra is the powercreep when it is not, put your prime mods (ignoring polarities) on instead of umbral mods and it would be no different to excal prime in terms of performance (ignoring spectre, which some see as a downside)

4.. The frame was made back when chinaframe was released (2015), it's not a new model, it's one they had sitting in storage.  Of course they could have done bigger changes but some people are already screaming powercreep with what we have now...

5.. Actually I see it differently, I see umbra being fully levelled (and all the xp etc) as a 'gift' from DE for sticking with them during the wait for umbra, it's been a long time coming after all.  They could easily have made it something we need to farm, they could have made it something we could only get from buying it, but DE decided to make it a quest reward instead.   DE also knew we'd have a lot of 'grind' from having to add forma to excal umbra and to all our exalted weapons so saving us one level up session was appreciated, at least by me. 

Oh and that first line of your reply.... you do realise that is kind of backing up what some non founders are saying about founder 'attitudes' towards non founders.

Edited June 23, 2018 by LSG501

[----Legacy----]

5 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Regretful decisions aren't always the wrong decisions.

When you're at the head of a company and a decision you regret keeps giving you trouble year after year, and the moment you try to fix it all you get is even more drama instead (because all of these treads are just that, a venezuelan or mexican drama at this point) then you start questioning yourself if that decision was the right one.

Did it work? Sure! But it also left a huge scar that seems not to heal despite how much the community grows.

12 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Toxicity is not exclusive to Founders

I'm sure toxicity comes from both sides, and I'm also sure of both sides having players who avoid being toxic as much as they can. My previous post addressed both, toxic founders and non-founders who hate (and get toxic towards founders) just because of reasons.

 

17 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Just say this: "Many Warframe players of different backgrounds are being disrespectful and toxic towards others over various haves and have-nots".

Don't tell me how to live.

[(PSN)vl_Monarch_lv]

2 hours ago, UrielColtan said:

Power creep? Its just a prime with worse  prime mods under the Umbra theme, that suck in general without the whole set and have an inconvenient polarity that can only be used for those mods to boot, and you can't even forma to get the polarity back if you change your mind. 

 

The best thing about an Umbra is that they behave like a specter when you leave them.

This.

Such upgrade.

Much stronk.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Seriously, Moderators/DE, this is becoming astounding... Time and time again in a matter of days I've seen this thread (many titles, many posters, same thread) at least 6 times over the  last 4 days... And 3 by the same poster, which I don't know if he was banned, but definitely should. Please start handing out bans, be it founders or non founders, to every poster who tries to ignite this fire every time. 

It's been discussed, with or without sympathy, several times and this adds 0 value to the community. I see an influx of new toxic players, as I see old players being toxic while saying "I miss the old community days". I like all my fellow Tenno, I love DE, and honestly all these threads do is creating a wall between all of us, specially between founders and non founders. I only say this because I've seen this happen before; This'l get locked and another will show up in a matter of hours. It's sickening...

[(XBOX)PredakingXYT]

2 hours ago, swodaem said:

That is a completely fallacious statement. There are many ways they could have released umbra and satisfied the majority of people.

No no no no no, you misunderstand, They DID satisfy the majority, you see, YOU, the founders who are angry, are the minority.

[Gadeon]

Oh boy these kinda threads again.

[Darkmoone1]

4 hours ago, swodaem said:

1. There is nothing new about umbra.

Its not a different excalibur, or a sidegrade, its just better.

2. Makes the value of primes worse/turns them to mastery fodder.

Why would someone grind for a prime only to have an umbra be much better? Sure all umbra is not out yet, but when they do start coming out why not just take the free easy to get umbra?

3. Its powercreep in the bad way. 

Its just creating a stronger version of another item.

4. Umbra had tons of potential that got wasted.

So mamy different ideas floating around and now they are just upgrades with a new look.

5. You are essentially given a better version of a prime for doing nothing. 

Here take this upgrade for your warframe. Don't worry about playing the game for rewards that have meaning, just do a short quest and take it.

1.Passive, Umbra polarities, and additional property on his 2. The intent was to give Umbra distinctive aspects while still making him Excalibur. No matter the changes, big or small, he does have new aspects for a Warframe. 

2. For now, the only thing it can be compared to in the first place is the other versions of Excalibur.How can you can compare it to other warframes all together, with their own stats and ability kits? And if you didn't mean that, then this is about Excalibur Prime, meaning this is a founder issue. 

And if it is,well the stats are the same, but here is what you're missing on Excal Prime: 

Umbra Polarities 

Sentient Passive 

Radial Howl

Is this really something to complain about? 

3. But how is it powercreep if there's nothing new about Umbra? Thinking.... 

4. This is subjective, but I'd like to think that if I wanted to play 

5. No, this is wrong and you know this. Players not in our position have to basically run through the star map, while completing almost every other quest in the game (Including the cinematic ones), all the while upgrading to be strong enough to complete the quest and reliably kill sentients with either the operator or frames. I'd say that's plenty of playing the game.

Keep in mind there are a lot of players who love playing Excalibur, but aren't Founders. So they had no upgraded version of a frame that is essentially the poster child of the game. 

Your thoughts contradict themselves. You believe nothing is new about the frame, but complain it's powercreep. Yet you say potential was wasted, but we already know any upgraded version of a warframe is minor changes at best. Honestly, what are you really mad about? 

It's honestly a broken record at this point. Is this the third thread (That hasn't been locked yet, expecting to soon) made about this?

Edited June 23, 2018 by Darkmoone1

[HoboKnoght]

4 hours ago, swodaem said:

This topic is not to discuss the dissatisfaction some founders have with prime not being the best anymore, its about the bad design that is a blatant copy and paste with better stats that is umbra. That design has to go. If frost prime is just a copy and paste with better stats/mods ill be upset too.

De said umbra would be different.

I mean... when u think about it, primes are just blatant copy pastes of warframes with better stats and a few added abilities + glitter. I dont see how is that a valid argument.
Added defense and offense against sentients is pretty different than what we had until now. Not only against sentients, "Tau" in general