Ember rework soon™?

[failedtodiet]

9 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

That doesn't tell me how Firequake was helping you; I have consistently found that it only gives the illusion of helping.  Regular WoF without Firequake is also used for CC, btw, and I refresh its range when I want its CC to reach further.  

I did tell in my previous posts on this topic, people just don't read. Regular WOF also CC, but based on chance of setting enemy on fire after the first contact and and not as reliable and visible as knockdown in chaos fights. And knock down will add 60% more damage because of Condition overload. The micro management is annoying, the inconsistent in CC range is the worse because you have to re-position yourself to CC. At about 18-20m enemy will start shooting, so what do you do with 10-15m firequake ? 

You have no solid control over your CC range. And there is always an alternative: press 2 which cost you less, give you more damage and you know exactly where your 2 skill can reach. That's why FQ doesn't help you and you don't understand. But it helped me, because of my playstyle.

That's my take on the rework: Do not press 4 to win, here spam more 2.

edit: dont' forget you still press 4 to win at low level, nothing changed.

Edited July 4, 2018 by failedtodiet

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

I'll explain. The range was nerfed and any time without cc going on, makes her more vulnerable. 

The range can be maintained by re-toggling, and you have instant access to cheaper, infinitely better, longer range CC at any time through Accelerant.  

2 hours ago, failedtodiet said:

I did tell in my previous posts on this topic, people just don't read. Regular WOF also CC, but based on chance of setting enemy on fire after the first contact and and not as reliable and visible as knockdown in chaos fights. And knock down will add 60% more damage because of Condition overload. The micro management is annoying, the inconsistent in CC range is the worse because you have to re-position yourself to CC. At about 18-20m enemy will start shooting, so what do you do with 10-15m firequake ? 

You have no solid control over your CC range. And there is always an alternative: press 2 which cost you less, give you more damage and you know exactly where your 2 skill can reach. That's why FQ doesn't help you and you don't understand. But it helped me, because of my playstyle.

That's my take on the rework: Do not press 4 to win, here spam more 2.

edit: dont' forget you still press 4 to win at low level, nothing changed.

I wasn't thinking about CO because I don't use it, but that is a useful point.

People being on fire is pretty visible IMO, but maybe not as much for you.  Subjective stuff.  

You do have solid control over your CC range; it's the 20m*powerrange of Accelerant.  Even before the WoF changes, the moment more than a handful of enemies came in range Firequake CC became unreliable; WoF can only ever be considered supplementary CC while Accelerant exists.  Your build gave you a sense of security, but it wasn't much better than it is now.  The low efficiency is really what kills it, though.  Bad builds with low efficiency are frequently a source of blame that belongs with the build but lands on the frame.  

More than half of available warframes can press4towin at low levels.  That's been irrelevant to this discussion since the beginning; DE only created toxicity by citing that as a reason for the WoF changes when it clearly wasn't.

Edited July 4, 2018 by RealPandemonium

[failedtodiet]

4 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

I wasn't thinking about CO because I don't use it, but that is a useful point.

People being on fire is pretty visible IMO, but maybe not as much for you.

You do have solid control over your CC range; it's the 20m*powerrange of Accelerant.  Even before the WoF changes, the moment more than a handful of enemies came in range Firequake CC became unreliable; WoF can only ever be considered supplementary CC while Accelerant exists.  Your build gave you a sense of security, but it wasn't much better than it is now.  The low efficiency is really what kills it, though.  Bad builds with low efficiency are frequently a source of blame that belongs with the build but lands on the frame.  

More than half the cast can press4towin at low levels.  That's been irrelevant to this discussion since the beginning; DE only created toxicity by citing that as a reason for the WoF changes when it clearly wasn't.

I see people on fire very clearly, but not the CC, they will continue to burn whether they're CCed or not. These 2 things are different. I also has slight problem with visual clutter, you may be right about the visibility but I'm not sure. 

Yes you do have control over the CC only IF you spam 2. Otherwise, no reliable CC range for you.

I'm not trying to convince you that my build is the best but i was not facing any problem that you listed out as keeping the right distance was always the solution for me. You do have your point, because if im not using firequake, i do all the thing you said, that's normal for playing Ember.

Rework removed maybe the most brainless embers and they gonna jump to the next brainless frame. Others who can think can adapt and can still do the same press4towin thing at low level. Who's really affected ? people who use ember like me. I'm not that salty because there are still loads of frame out there to use and try my best to not being toxic. But yea, we're in a loop here, i have no further point to add.

 

[ReshyShira]

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

in endless ember cannot stand in one spot, turn WoF on and just go make a pizza. even with toggling its going to come at a cost. you know who else can run across the map in an exterminate and kill enemes with a toggle power? Maimquinox. WoF can no longer kill enemies where you cant see them by just turning it on and leaving it on.

Equinox cannot go and make a pizza on defense missions, sorry if you never played the frame and thus don't know better.  Equinox requires the squad to be actively killing enemies to charge it up.  Banshee is still better at killing lower level enemies than either of them (except at like the below level 10 range).  The only thing that Equinox has over Banshee is that she scales indefinitely whilst the others fall off very quickly.

 

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Why not use any of the other frames I listed instead?

Aside from WoF becoming more expensive, what changed to affect "high level viability?"

I know watching a short youtube video is very difficult, but her CC in the form of Fire Quake has been severely diminished by 75% of it's old size due to the new mechanic, whilst not scaling anywhere near well enough to compensate for that loss in survivability.  I hardly ever seen Ember anymore except for fashion framing.

 

37 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

The range can be maintained by re-toggling, and you have instant access to cheaper, infinitely better, longer range CC at any time through Accelerant.  

I wasn't thinking about CO because I don't use it, but that is a useful point.

People being on fire is pretty visible IMO, but maybe not as much for you.  Subjective stuff.  

You do have solid control over your CC range; it's the 20m*powerrange of Accelerant.  Even before the WoF changes, the moment more than a handful of enemies came in range Firequake CC became unreliable; WoF can only ever be considered supplementary CC while Accelerant exists.  Your build gave you a sense of security, but it wasn't much better than it is now.  The low efficiency is really what kills it, though.  Bad builds with low efficiency are frequently a source of blame that belongs with the build but lands on the frame.  

More than half of available warframes can press4towin at low levels.  That's been irrelevant to this discussion since the beginning; DE only created toxicity by citing that as a reason for the WoF changes when it clearly wasn't.

Why should you need to toggle an ability, why can't it just.. work?

[(PSN)Kairu_Aname]

28 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

The range can be maintained by re-toggling, and you have instant access to cheaper, infinitely better, longer range CC at any time through Accelerant.  

That forced toggle is what hurts her when fighting high lvl enemies. It's a period of time that she doesn't have cc going. It forces you to turn it off to gain the range back or lose energy. 

That "off" time is what hurts high lvl survivability. A lot of this discussion would be alleviated if they changed it back to a duration ability with a one time cost. 

It forces the playstyle that people desperately want others to have(I mean that because look at this thread. People telling others to play differently vehemently). The press 4 and pay attention to it playstyle. But it also takes away from other types of builds. 

Yeah. I've explained my reasoning. I'm done here

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, ReshyShira said:

I know watching a short youtube video is very difficult, but her CC in the form of Fire Quake has been severely diminished by 75% of it's old size due to the new mechanic, whilst not scaling anywhere near well enough to compensate for that loss in survivability.  I hardly ever seen Ember anymore except for fashion framing.

 

Why should you need to toggle an ability, why can't it just.. work?

I don't read the forums to watch Youtube videos, and doubly so when they come from toxic content creators that promote cynicism among players.

A linear loss in range does indeed result in a much more dramatic loss in area, but this does not apply to WoF since its number of targets per second is capped at 2.5.  

Doubling WoF's damage is not negligible, unless you were using a low strength build to begin with.

WoF does work now, and it is actuallly more flexible than before at the cost of energy efficiency.  

1 hour ago, (PS4)Kairu_Aname said:

That forced toggle is what hurts her when fighting high lvl enemies. It's a period of time that she doesn't have cc going. It forces you to turn it off to gain the range back or lose energy. 

That "off" time is what hurts high lvl survivability. A lot of this discussion would be alleviated if they changed it back to a duration ability with a one time cost. 

It forces the playstyle that people desperately want others to have(I mean that because look at this thread. People telling others to play differently vehemently). The press 4 and pay attention to it playstyle. But it also takes away from other types of builds. 

Yeah. I've explained my reasoning. I'm done here

It takes less than a second to recast WoF and you get a bonus 5 targets immediately upon casting.

You are arguing against the ability being an ability.  Your 4 should not be a passive; none of your abilities should.  

Low efficiency builds were always bad, but you were able to skate by because WoF was absurdly cheap; its costs are in line with what the ability provides, now .

 

Btw, here is a comparison of WoF costs (with max efficiency costs in parentheses following raw costs):

Old WoF: 50 + 3/sec; 11.3 (2.83) average energy cost over 6 seconds, 8 (2) average over 10 seconds, decays toward 3/sec (.75/sec) over time

New WoF, recast every 6 seconds: 50 + 3/sec; 11.3 (2.83) average energy cost over 6 seconds

New WoF; recast every 10 seconds: (50 + 18 + 3.75 + 4.5 + 5.25 + 6) / 10 = 8.75 (2.19) average energy cost over 10 seconds

New WoF; no recast: same as above, but decays toward 6/sec (1.5/sec) over time

The WoF changes made it more than twice as expensive, but these values are amply manageable.  Pre-rework WoF was pretty much free.

[Justice_Ember]

The problem with a non meta frame is that whoever plays it in high level has a distinctive way of playing it, so any changes suggested will be arguably subjective to one playstyle.

That said, there is a way to come to an agreement, listing all the golden rules of Ember play, and then scrapping the rest, making way for a substantial rework that players old and new can get behind.

So I'll list the two things I know for sure and that has never been disputed against, to my knowledge at least.

1. Accelerant is perfect, it has the range, the CC, the power output and synergy with heat damage that any Ember player will love, it is the one ability that we can all agree on that it's fine the way it is, and as such it should be the starting point to rebuilding her kit.
2. Ember is THE one and only frame that's weapon dependant, when it comes to play Ember not any weapon will do, unlike all other frames were you can have a disconect between modding weapons and frames and go well into the high level stuff, modding for Ember requires special dedication to weapon modding, the right amount of heat damage, status, etc.

With that I think the issue is not wether we want old WoF or new WoF, adding or shaving seconds from casting, or energy efficiency, but instead how we want to do damage, do we want an armor removal mechanic? or a static aoe to cast? or a mobile and agile way to set things on fire? should status chance or fire rate be improved by a skill? is overheating a part of our loadout an option DE is looking at? 

WoF (and IMO Fire Blast) is dead, Ember has been reimagined into a CC frame rather than a Glass Cannon and that's ok, but we need a frame that can be pushed to the limits of imagination instead of a frame that needs to be tweaked constantly to keep up with newer frames.

[ReshyShira]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

I don't read the forums to watch Youtube videos, and doubly so when they come from toxic content creators that promote cynicism among players.

A linear loss in range does indeed result in a much more dramatic loss in area, but this does not apply to WoF since its number of targets per second is capped at 2.5.  

Doubling WoF's damage is not negligible, unless you were using a low strength build to begin with.

WoF does work now, and it is actuallly more flexible than before at the cost of energy efficiency.  

It takes less than a second to recast WoF and you get a bonus 5 targets immediately upon casting.

You are arguing against the ability being an ability.  Your 4 should not be a passive; none of your abilities should.  

Low efficiency builds were always bad, but you were able to skate by because WoF was absurdly cheap; its costs are in line with what the ability provides, now .

 

Btw, here is a comparison of WoF costs (with max efficiency costs in parentheses following raw costs):

Old WoF: 50 + 3/sec; 11.3 (2.83) average energy cost over 6 seconds, 8 (2) average over 10 seconds, decays toward 3/sec (.75/sec) over time

New WoF, recast every 6 seconds: 50 + 3/sec; 11.3 (2.83) average energy cost over 6 seconds

New WoF; recast every 10 seconds: (50 + 18 + 3.75 + 4.5 + 5.25 + 6) / 10 = 8.75 (2.19) average energy cost over 10 seconds

New WoF; no recast: same as above, but decays toward 6/sec (1.5/sec) over time

The WoF changes made it more than twice as expensive, but these values are amply manageable.  Pre-rework WoF was pretty much free.

Ah, so you call someone a toxic creator and therefore ignore what they have to say, okay.

Why make a change that fails to address the problems that the rework was designed to resolve (destroying low-level maps easily) while only hurting the character at high levels (by reducing the viability of firequake on an already squishy frame)?

[RealPandemonium]

43 minutes ago, zzzNitro said:

Ember is THE one and only frame that's weapon dependant, when it comes to play Ember not any weapon will do, unlike all other frames were you can have a disconect between modding weapons and frames and go well into the high level stuff, modding for Ember requires special dedication to weapon modding, the right amount of heat damage, status, etc.

What's the weapon dependence?  Adding some Heat damage?  

24 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Ah, so you call someone a toxic creator and therefore ignore what they have to say, okay.

Why make a change that fails to address the problems that the rework was designed to resolve (destroying low-level maps easily) while only hurting the character at high levels (by reducing the viability of firequake on an already squishy frame)?

Shy regurgitates common wisdoms for the masses with an appealing presentation.  Doesn't make them correct.  

DE's stated intentions for the WoF changes are just wrong, period.  It's yet another PR mistake, and won't be the last.  Firequake was arguably never viable, and it is only more expensive now; its efficacy can be preserved by recasting.  If you're too lazy to recast then I suggest you move on to frames with legitimate CC; theirs even lasts longer and reaches farther than Accelerant!

[Justice_Ember]

1 minute ago, RealPandemonium said:

What's the weapon dependence?  Adding some Heat damage?  

It's not just adding Heat, its having to compromise on elemental damage and status chance, all while balancing utility in order to maximize her control and/or damage. 
Ember simply doesn't work without proper weapon modding and that's the DEfinition of weapon dependence.

[ReshyShira]

20 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

What's the weapon dependence?  Adding some Heat damage?  

Shy regurgitates common wisdoms for the masses with an appealing presentation.  Doesn't make them correct.  

DE's stated intentions for the WoF changes are just wrong, period.  It's yet another PR mistake, and won't be the last.  Firequake was arguably never viable, and it is only more expensive now; its efficacy can be preserved by recasting.  If you're too lazy to recast then I suggest you move on to frames with legitimate CC; theirs even lasts longer and reaches farther than Accelerant!

So basically, play a different warframe till they too get nerfed to comparable CC levels.  Brilliant.  How about we make Ember more viable instead?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Kairu_Aname:

She has a 2x multiplier at all times and she's not a cc frame. She slows enemies down, or speeds them up. It's not true cc. 

stuns, knock-downs, and sleep are true cc types because they stop the enemy from doing anything to hit you in any way

...all a knockdown to 2 enemys at a time does is slowing enemys down too.

Tho it hardly matters just what Cc ability i name since you've appearently sacrificed the damage buff to begin with as you may have noticed.

The dudes from DE sure are some sly bastards making the minimal possible strength also the point some damage buffs stop doing anything at all.

Edited July 4, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[ShortCat]

Ok, I need step in.

54 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

What's the weapon dependence?  Adding some Heat damage?  

We already discussed it, but I will repeat myself. Ember requires high status weapons to strip armor and inflict fireprocs to make full use of her kit; less armor from Corrosive procs will enhance all the fire damage she does and Fire procs will provide addition CC. It is coincidential that Ignis is such a good weapon for her. Against Corpus weapons with pure Toxic damage tend to perfomre worse than pure Fire, because after F.Accelerant weapon damage is combined to Gas, thus has to cut through shields, loses bonus from Accelerant and relies to much on slow DoTs.

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Old WoF: 50 + 3/sec; 11.3 (2.83) average energy cost over 6 seconds, 8 (2) average over 10 seconds, decays toward 3/sec (.75/sec) over time

New WoF, recast every 6 seconds: 50 + 3/sec; 11.3 (2.83) average energy cost over 6 seconds

New WoF; recast every 10 seconds: (50 + 18 + 3.75 + 4.5 + 5.25 + 6) / 10 = 8.75 (2.19) average energy cost over 10 seconds

New WoF; no recast: same as above, but decays toward 6/sec (1.5/sec) over time

The WoF changes made it more than twice as expensive, but these values are amply manageable.  Pre-rework WoF was pretty much free.

Thanks for this calculation, as it shows everything wrong with her and will not work in your favor.

The beauty of old WoF was its relatively low energy cost of base 3/sec. Your calculations distorts it a little, since noone was recasting WoF every 6 seconds, as the initail activation cost would add up very quickely. The go-to tactic was to let it run all the time, so that viewed over a long period of time only the base drain of 3 energy had to be managed.

New WoF indeed doubles the base energy cost to 6/sec over long periodof time and is still manageble, but the changes in PS and especially Range are undesired. Now, here is the crutial point: if I want WoF with max range, I need to recast it every 6 seconds. Thus I have to compare this value:

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

decays toward 3/sec (.75/sec) over time

with this value:

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

New WoF, recast every 6 seconds: 50 + 3/sec; 11.3 (2.83) average energy cost over 6 seconds

You say old WoF is still there, we just need to recast it from time to time. Do you see the problem with your suggestion? Your workaround is 3x (almost 4x) more expesive.

 

[Djego27]

Il y a 2 heures, ReshyShira a dit :

Equinox cannot go and make a pizza on defense missions, sorry if you never played the frame and thus don't know better.  Equinox requires the squad to be actively killing enemies to charge it up.  Banshee is still better at killing lower level enemies than either of them (except at like the below level 10 range).  The only thing that Equinox has over Banshee is that she scales indefinitely whilst the others fall off very quickly.

You do certainly not need a squad to charge up at levels where people claimed her WoF Ember was useful, with stupidity that is meme strike the level hardly matters anyway. While you can not make one while doing the defence you can certainly eat one without to much issues on Equinox(I still can in EOS while doing the highest damage).

Il y a 2 heures, ReshyShira a dit :

I know watching a short youtube video is very difficult, but her CC in the form of Fire Quake has been severely diminished by 75% of it's old size due to the new mechanic, whilst not scaling anywhere near well enough to compensate for that loss in survivability.  I hardly ever seen Ember anymore except for fashion framing.

Watching this fire quake youtube videos is actually difficult to me, given my head mostly hits the desk and starts hurting after a short while. I hardly seen any person that could be described as reasonable Ember player the last 2.5 years as well, given that playing Ember just with WoF is just on the level of Rino/Loki just using 2 or the old Drako Ash master race that always looked like every other button on her keyboard but 4 was not working. There was also a similar outcry when they changed bladestrom, even if it had very little impact on people that actually played the frame proficient, while you could objectively solo your L100 sorti with the frame just fine with the frame that got invisibility, a anti armor augment and on demand finisher damage.

Il y a 2 heures, ReshyShira a dit :

Why should you need to toggle an ability, why can't it just.. work?

Well it does work.

https://i.imgur.com/0net4Pq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/tvFHlZb.jpg

This is the 2. most stupid defence in the hole game to solo(first one goes obviously to the old archwing defence, that was beyond terrible with unscaled HP on the defence targets, 2 targets to defend and stuff being able to spawn literally directly ready to shoot defence targets or was stuck at some edge of the map what required like 3 minutes each round to find the last units). It is not like the solo, L100, Ember, shotgun only(oh the joy of not having a extra weapon for arson eximus at L100) or armor aspect making it such a pain, it is scaling damage on indestructible turrets and traps that do noting against people cheesing it and making it nearly unplayable for people that actually play the game.

Even then Ember works fine, assuming people try to use more then the 4 button on her keyboard(or just using this one correctly by just double tapping it every 15-20s) while playing the frame and consider that a weapon to be effective scaling damage on Ember has to be modded different then on her other frames.

Looking at the saryn rework that changed the frame from being scaling damage via weapon/ability interaction in combination with good positioning and a adequate secondary weapon to deal with certain things in the scaling(toxic eximus) to hiding in a corner with a Ignis and doing damage mostly automated by the press of a single button I could pass on a Ember rework, given that I then most likely need a new frame to main.

[ReshyShira]

12 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Well it does work.

https://i.imgur.com/0net4Pq.jpg 

https://i.imgur.com/tvFHlZb.jpg

This is the 2. most stupid defence in the hole game to solo(first one goes obviously to the old archwing defence, that was beyond terrible with unscaled HP on the defence targets, 2 targets to defend and stuff being able to spawn literally directly ready to shoot defence targets or was stuck at some edge of the map what required like 3 minutes each round to find the last units). It is not like the solo, L100, Ember, shotgun only(oh the joy of not having a extra weapon for arson eximus at L100) or armor aspect making it such a pain, it is scaling damage on indestructible turrets and traps that do noting against people cheesing it and making it nearly unplayable for people that actually play the game.

Even then Ember works fine, assuming people try to use more then the 4 button on her keyboard(or just using this one correctly by just double tapping it every 15-20s) while playing the frame and consider that a weapon to be effective scaling damage on Ember has to be modded different then on her other frames.

Looking at the saryn rework that changed the frame from being scaling damage via weapon/ability interaction in combination with good positioning and a adequate secondary weapon to deal with certain things in the scaling(toxic eximus) to hiding in a corner with a Ignis and doing damage mostly automated by the press of a single button I could pass on a Ember rework, given that I then most likely need a new frame to main.

What's that got to do with world on fire?  I'm talking about WoF and it's change.

[Djego27]

Il y a 2 heures, zzzNitro a dit :

Ember is THE one and only frame that's weapon dependant, when it comes to play Ember not any weapon will do, unlike all other frames were you can have a disconect between modding weapons and frames and go well into the high level stuff, modding for Ember requires special dedication to weapon modding, the right amount of heat damage, status, etc. 

Most of this got scraped with the weapon rebalance. While there are still obviously weapons that perform much better on the frame, a normal player can use this days nearly everything while being effective up to sorti levels and beyond if he has realized how the damage and status system works. I mean DE more or less thrown that what made Ember a special weapon based frame(interactions with focus, arcanes, pets etc.) out of the window over the years and honestly you do so much damage this days with rivens and the weapon buffs that even keeping up accelerant all the time hardly matters, even for soloing sortis, while I will certainly not do much endurance stuff on Ember with the current state of enemy accuracity against solo/host players.

[Djego27]

il y a 1 minute, ReshyShira a dit :

What's that got to do with world on fire?  I'm talking about WoF and it's change.

That you can still do defence Sortis solo with the CC of WoF and a bit of acclerant thrown in, so it should be certainly good enught for the average player.

[ShortCat]

56 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

That you can still do defence Sortis solo with the CC of WoF and a bit of acclerant thrown in, so it should be certainly good enught for the average player.

Or you can build your Frame only for defence, equip meta weapons and finish the mission without casting once. This is a general issue with the game right now and not exclusive to Ember. The real question is: How much does Ember contribute to a mission? The answer is: not much.

[failedtodiet]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

 

https://i.imgur.com/0net4Pq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/tvFHlZb.jpg

This is the 2. most stupid defence in the hole game to solo(first one goes obviously to the old archwing defence, that was beyond terrible with unscaled HP on the defence targets, 2 targets to defend and stuff being able to spawn literally directly ready to shoot defence targets or was stuck at some edge of the map what required like 3 minutes each round to find the last units). It is not like the solo, L100, Ember, shotgun only(oh the joy of not having a extra weapon for arson eximus at L100) or armor aspect making it such a pain, it is scaling damage on indestructible turrets and traps that do noting against people cheesing it and making it nearly unplayable for people that actually play the game.

This Sortie is actually far easier than high level survival because their main target is something else, not you. With specters around, I didn't even use 4th skill. But good combination of arcane nevertheless, i've never though of that before because i don't own good Arcanes.

https://imgur.com/a/vM9aQpD

[Djego27]

il y a 16 minutes, failedtodiet a dit :

This Sortie is actually far easier than high level survival because their main target is something else, not you. With specters around, I didn't even use 4th skill. But good combination of arcane nevertheless, i've never though of that before because i don't own good Arcanes. 

https://imgur.com/a/vM9aQpD

I do not use specters and I would not call it easier if you have to revive the defence guy quite a bit and can not chose the positions where you fight because you have to follow him wandering around compared to a survival. I did sorti L100 survival solo with Ember with the extra armor penalty since the WoF change and before and the only issue I see is DEs enemy accuracy, what feels just as bad as pre U17 against solo/hosts and lets you avoid big open rooms against hit scan weapon using NPCs like a plague(what you should not have to do in my opinion, same as you do not have to as a client).

Edited July 4, 2018 by Djego27

[failedtodiet]

Just now, Djego27 said:

I do not use spectres and I would not call it easier if you have to revive the defence guy quite a bit and can not chose the positions where you fight because you have to follow him wandering around compared to a survival. I did sorti L100 survival solo with Ember with the extra armor penalty since the WoF change and before and the only issue I see is DEs enemy accuracy, what feels just as bad as pre U17 against solo/hosts and lets you avoid big open rooms against hit scan weapon using NPCs like a plague(what you should not have to do in my opinion, same as you do not have to as a client).

True, your enemy in this kind of defense is the operative, mine cooperating surprisingly good and its a very easy run for me. Although i suggest that you should using at least Ancient healer for these kind missions. If you're not having problem surviving with ember right now, maybe i should start looking into arcane as a chance for ember re-rework is like war blade drop rate.

[Djego27]

I do not use ancient healers outside of higher level defence missions, mostly to protect the pod against what DE considers a well thought out mechanic(infinite damage scaling on NPCs). I never seen a big issue to stay alive with Ember outside of getting one hit killed(like L120 upwards depending on the faction and units) if you keep moving and utilize the CC the frame has. What is more of a issue is when DE allows enemy units with hit scan weapons aimbotting you as host/solo player or one of the many quite bad mechanics(like toxic ancients one shooting you with the breath attack before even starting the animation, shotgun crewman becoming the true successors of the old detron crewman in one hit killing you even at lower levels or hook attack also carry over aura effects like toxin and can proc slash, at what point it is literally a one hit kill before you even get hooked).

I can also feel your pain with the war blade, I to still miss one and have not seen any drop for at least 30 moon survivals in the past.

Edit: As for Arcanes, Arcane Victory is fairly easy to get and useful on all frames, even if it got mostly obsolete with magus elevate. Arcane rage is very nice to buff primary weapon damage at high levels, only issue today is that we barely have situations where you would need more damage. Well I guess it helps to kill the the Theralyst quicker so there is that, back in the days before primed point blank and rivens it was a very solid damage buff to my boar prime that did did like less then 1/3 of the damage back then.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Djego27

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb ShortCat:

Or you can build your Frame only for defence, equip meta weapons and finish the mission without casting once. This is a general issue with the game right now and not exclusive to Ember. The real question is: How much does Ember contribute to a mission? The answer is: not much.

40-70% totall damage done average with zero deaths pretty much everyone here who actually adapted to her change should be able to confirm tell a different story.

The fun part about that statement is that both, melee meta and aoe gun meta are fire based to begin with.

Edited July 4, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[ShortCat]

3 hours ago, Djego27 said:

I would not call it easier if you have to revive the defence guy quite a bit

It is infenitely more easier than normal defence missions, since the target has infinte HP(revives) as long as you can revive it, which should not be a problem with void mode.

https://imgur.com/wtDpPSU

Unfortunatelly, I already finished todays defence sortie, but you have to believe me it is from the mission. The focus is on "Abilities Used" stat. Unfortunatelly again, void mode counts as an ability and goes into statistic, but I played the whole mission without using any of Ember's abilities. Am I the best Ember player now that don't even need abilities?

Edited July 4, 2018 by ShortCat

[Zebiko]

Ember still nukes low level enemies, clearly she needs more nerfs.