Defy 2.0

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Would that even be enough?

If we look at it mathematically, with 200% bonus range I'm struggling to hit enemies 4m away, but for the sake of discussion lets say it's 4m. If it's only hitting 4m after increasing in range by 200% then it's base range is a mere 1.3 reoccurring metres. 

Therefore at 400% increased range it would be at 6.66 reoccurring metres... Still pretty short compared to things like the Orthos... 

some quick testing, i do not know how the marker determines the range assume a margin of error due to where the game considers the center of the player and enemy hitbox sizes, remember the marker likely shows the distance between a center point of the player model and a center point of the enemy model when market, however an attack only needs to reach long enough to make contact with the hitbox of the enemy which is at least 1m wide in most cases.

you can strike a enemy if they are displayed as 2m away with base range on staff. specifically it is between when the marker goes from 1m to 2m, and from 2m to 3m.. this would seem to indicate that with a 200% bonus it increases to around 6m. but instead its closer to 4.5m or so with the base range appearing like 2.5, hitting around between the 2m and 3m point.

 

this means that the 200% is being treated like a 2x range multiplier, rather than an additional 200%, which would be triple in normal math. i personally think this calculation is bad to begin with.... its as if the range is exclusively from the % increase, and ignoring the base range in M if the base range is 2.5m, 200% increase would be adding 5m... that would produce 7.5m reach... instead we get roughly the 5.5 or so. the most range i could hit a enemy at was between the 5m point and 6m point. this might be due to hitboxes or something similar, as i noticed that one of my targets produced "ghost" strikes that produced a impact flash but no combo increase or damage.

so, i can assume the base range is around 2 to 2.5, and that the % modifier might as well be a direct 2.00x multiplier at 200%

however, a single strike does produce a increase in range, even if the % is not above 100%.. does this mean that the base range is actually being reduced? or is the % modifier only being applied at half efficiency? i would love to see some data mined formula on this..

so yeah, 400% considering how it appears to act would give around 7.5m range if the base range is 2.5. the idea of 400% would be if the Formula was more exact.. pull up a calculator and add 400% to 2 and you get 10. clearly the in-game math does not follow so simple a formula.

 

MY END POINT IS THIS

all in all, we seem to have another case of bad formulas in play... so maybe instead of a % cap, give it a straight Meter range cap. ideally around 8m to 10m. having it increase by the % still or having it increase by 0.5m each strike (modified by Ability Range). i feel that 8-10m is fair considering the long reach of Excals waves and the fact that a good Zaw can reach 10m+ with just primed reach.

Edited July 25, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[DeMonkey]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

the most range i could hit a enemy at was between the 5m point and 6m point

I'm genuinely surprised, I was and have captured numerous images of my staff failing to hit an enemy marked as 4m away from me at max range. I used the Tipedo and the Iron Staff back to back, and the Tipedo was hitting enemies at a noticeably longer distance. Interesting discrepancy.

Regardless, yes, the formula does seem pretty whack.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

all in all, we seem to have another case of bad formulas in play... so maybe instead of a % cap, give it a straight Meter range cap. ideally around 8m to 10m. having it increase by the % still or having it increase by 0.5m each strike (modified by Ability Range). i feel that 8-10m is fair considering the long reach of Excals waves and the fact that a good Zaw can reach 10m+ with just primed reach.

I'd be okay with this 

Found some pictures I posted awhile back.

On 2018-06-27 at 1:18 AM, DeMonkey said:

It certainly is a ton of fun, here's some screenshots of what I mean though.

Orthos Prime with Primed Reach:

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Primal Fury with Primed Reach:

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Primal Fury at a distance it can actually hit enemies at:

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I'm sure you can see my issue, admittedly in the Primal Fury hits the combo wasn't exactly built up, but building the combo would only grant it another +35% range. Meanwhile Orthos Prime is hitting enemies already twice the distance away, and will likely still have twice the range even after Primal Fury is at max length.

And that's not even counting Primal Fury's slams that don't even go those 3m 

 

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

i did testing against Nox, the only things that can really survive repeated measured strikes from a exalted weapon while the AI is paused and stealth multipliers are active as a result.. also the chances of impacting was inconsistent but i could hit over 5m. as i mentioned, enemy hitboxes likely take a huge role in this testing as the edges of the boxes are a distance away form where the marker is considering..

 

still doing it atm... messing in the simulacrum..

Edited July 25, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[DeMonkey]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

i did testing against Nox, the only things that can really survive repeated measured strikes from a exalted weapon while the AI is paused and stealth multipliers are active as a result.. also the chances of impacting was inconsistent but i could hit over 5m. as i mentioned, enemy hitboxes likely take a huge role in this testing as the edges of the boxes are a distance away form where the marker is considering..

 

still doing it atm... messing in the simulacrum..

Potentially yeah, as for repeated strikes I just picked a loadout slot that wasn't actually built, no sweat.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

going into with 53% range per strike and Primed reach. enemy read 5m before the strike landed.

the enemies in the center where 8 spawn, i could not hit just around 4m at times... as i said before.. inconsistent...

 

i wanna meme post this "such range" but it makes me feel sad...

Edited July 25, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

going into with 53% range per strike and Primed reach. enemy read 5m before the strike landed.

the enemies in the center where 8 spawn, i could not hit just around 4m at times... as i said before.. inconsistent...

In that case, I wonder if the Nox has a funky hitbox with that bulbous glass helmet.

(I like your Wukong btw, green and black is very nice)

[W.Y.M.]

pls give wukong damage buff ability.. or damage scaling ability.. i mean wukong can't nuke room anymore.. at least he could melee enemies with any melee weapon.. maybe half damage buff than chroma but gain attack speed.. or maybe if wukong can have clones, what if the clones acts like ash's 4th ability but it reduces enemies damage resistance instead of doing damage? sorry my english is bad

Edited July 26, 2018 by W.Y.M.
wrong word

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, W.Y.M. said:

pls give wukong damage buff ability.. or damage scaling ability.. i mean wukong can't nuke room anymore.. at least he could melee enemies with any melee weapon.. maybe half damage buff than chroma but gain attack speed.. or maybe if wukong can have clones, what if the clones acts like ash's 4th ability but it reduces enemies damage resistance instead of doing damage? sorry my english is bad

Wukong doesn't really need a damage buff, with correct modding Primal Fury can do 100,000's of damage.

Attack Speed ''could'' work, however you run the risk of having too much attack speed, which subsequently breaks the ability.

Clones would be incredible, but again, don't need the added damage (in the form of reducing their resistance). Having the clones actually deal damage however could be cool. Mobile targets that take some attention, deal a bit of damage and essentially just create a nuisance of themselves. I'd love it.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

the only way i can see "Clones" is if its added as a Augment to Defy or Cloud walker. On that front i am fully behind having a Specter spawn when defy triggers its invulnerability via augment as i dont want to loose Cloud walker (it could be good if they change it up!)

 

i dont really feel Wukong needs damage buffing ability tho. Fury is lacking its true but it can hit very VERY hard as all the exalted abilities can.

[W.Y.M.]

18 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Wukong doesn't really need a damage buff, with correct modding Primal Fury can do 100,000's of damage.

Attack Speed ''could'' work, however you run the risk of having too much attack speed, which subsequently breaks the ability.

Clones would be incredible, but again, don't need the added damage (in the form of reducing their resistance). Having the clones actually deal damage however could be cool. Mobile targets that take some attention, deal a bit of damage and essentially just create a nuisance of themselves. I'd love it.

2x range multipliers you proposed would work on any weapon? or just iron staff?

idea for the clones is that to create distraction so that wukong loses agro while reviving downed frames or making enemies busy with the clones and not attacking wukong and hitting distracted enemies gains "unalerted" bonus damage or something.. at least it's not damage buff..

[DeMonkey]

Just now, W.Y.M. said:

2x range multipliers you proposed would work on any weapon? or just iron staff?

idea for the clones is that to create distraction so that wukong loses agro while reviving downed frames or making enemies busy with the clones and not attacking wukong and hitting distracted enemies gains "unalerted" bonus damage or something.. at least it's not damage buff..

When I say range multiplier, I'm directly referring to the ''range'' stat on the Warframe, not the weapon. 

Subsequently this would mean that the proposed taunt effect would become more powerful ''on death'', and any future abilities or effects that can make use of range would benefit from it. One of the major reasons I included this was because range is such a huge dump stat on Wukong, there's simply no reason for it in his current kit.

Things that range affects on Wukong:

- Knockdown radius on the jab, worthless. No explanation needed.

- Stun range on Cloudwalker, worthless. You need to be right next to the enemy when you dismount anyway in order to use a finisher on them, too far away and the you can't reach them in time. 

- The amount that the staff grows per hit, worthless. It still caps at 200% range no matter what you do, might as well dump the range stat and hit enemies a few more times.

[W.Y.M.]

5 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

When I say range multiplier, I'm directly referring to the ''range'' stat on the Warframe, not the weapon. 

Subsequently this would mean that the proposed taunt effect would become more powerful ''on death'', and any future abilities or effects that can make use of range would benefit from it. One of the major reasons I included this was because range is such a huge dump stat on Wukong, there's simply no reason for it in his current kit.

Things that range affects on Wukong:

- Knockdown radius on the jab, worthless. No explanation needed.

- Stun range on Cloudwalker, worthless. You need to be right next to the enemy when you dismount anyway in order to use a finisher on them, too far away and the you can't reach them in time. 

- The amount that the staff grows per hit, worthless. It still caps at 200% range no matter what you do, might as well dump the range stat and hit enemies a few more times.

ahh.. i see.. i agree on your defy though.. it would be more fun to use..

[den2k]

On 2018-07-25 at 3:31 AM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Buff Nidus instead 😛

 

On 2018-07-24 at 7:58 AM, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

Ainobody loves monkey boy, rework Nezha instead!

Hah, they should fix "flying beauty" Titania Razoerwing instead. Her bum's so good that turrets target that even if she's a quarter of a frame and without heat emitting thrusters.

[Azamagon]

+1

Solves all the issues I personally have with Defy; It's no longer boringly doing "nothing" when you aren't being attacked (via the added healing, DR and aggro), and it's no longer facetank ez-mode (via the immortality having a cooldown + having a synergy via the PF-kill-interaction). I really like this, it's really well thought through.

I'm not entirely sure about having it giving a powerboost upon "death", but afaik, that actually fits Wukong's lore (please correct me if I'm wrong about this); If enemies aren't any fun in regards to challenge (i.e unable to put in some hurt on him), he won't feel particularly engaged to fight them either. So, having more power when he is finding actually potent enemies, by getting more "worked up", is fitting (again, afai can tell). Not to mention, it's cool how it helps his DR if things are getting seriously rough; It still let's him "Defy" tough stuff, but it's not as cheap as it is currently

 

[Almighty_Jado]

🙉

[DeMonkey]

58 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

+1

Solves all the issues I personally have with Defy; It's no longer boringly doing "nothing" when you aren't being attacked (via the added healing, DR and aggro), and it's no longer facetank ez-mode (via the immortality having a cooldown + having a synergy via the PF-kill-interaction). I really like this, it's really well thought through.

I'm not entirely sure about having it giving a powerboost upon "death", but afaik, that actually fits Wukong's lore (please correct me if I'm wrong about this); If enemies aren't any fun in regards to challenge (i.e unable to put in some hurt on him), he won't feel particularly engaged to fight them either. So, having more power when he is finding actually potent enemies, by getting more "worked up", is fitting (again, afai can tell). Not to mention, it's cool how it helps his DR if things are getting seriously rough; It still let's him "Defy" tough stuff, but it's not as cheap as it is currently

 

I appreciate it, and yes, based on what I know there are several instances of Wukong reaching higher levels of power upon getting ''worked up''. Generally it's when he's angry and a little more demonic than usual.

It's essentially what allowed him to take on the entirety of Heaven, alone, and win.

[bbwb]

Spoiler

 

 

 

EVEN, DEFY, FURTHER.. BEYOND!!!

I uh.. err.. I mean.. yeah 😄 . I think it would lead to this skill being more interesting than it is now, which is currently about as interesting as a wet paper towel. I think people are mistaken when they call current defy "op" since the damage resistance, and skills, that other frames have is pretty damn near "invulnerability" on almost all content that matters while offering other things within that skill or better skills in general. "But this one guy if you get hit four times in a row and the sun is 45 degrees to the moon and three frosted flakes were in the sky".. yeah okay sure but in general Wukong's skill is less valuable than just having those other frame buffs (in the greater scheme of survivability) and therefore I say Defy is not OP lol. 

So in that way I think it would be fun to add to defy as it's a bit boring and "may seem good, but isn't /that/ great skill". I imagine defy would be fine as it currently is if Wukong's other skills were excellent but unfortunately they're not either lol.

You know me, I can't help but lick my fingers and spin everything I touch XD, so what do you think (explicitly in addition to what you said): he can charge defy by holding it down (doing a bit like the above posted video.. huehue), increasing his damage reduction (to a max % of your choice) at the cost of maximum energy until the ability is turned off (and if it needs to be for balance also energy / s increase, but this should scale very slightly then). This should let him scale his armor a bit depending on circumstance / how long the event has lasted, since later you'll need more (and other frames can offer that more for sure, and your cooldown on defy immortality will mean this skill is actually "nerfed" at that much later game content if he can't boost it quite a bit*). *I know you said mods can affect it, so maybe that'd help but mod math isn't really something I just "wing" in my head so maybe nonissue so long as Wukong builds a lot of ability strength lol.. :P.

Augment for defy, Terrifying Release (or whatever name you want 😉) : damage absorbed turns into a short X time buff that increases the (m1) minimum and (m2) maximum reach of Iron Staff and defies's effect will persist for short Y time afterwards. 

So like 300% (m1) base reach increase, 1,000% (m2) max, for 10 (x) seconds, while defy lasts 7 (Y) seconds after release. X and Y based on rank, m1 and m2 based on damage absorbed during defy's active period. The max % increase needing some eye for balance but I'm imagining the longest melee weapon in the game for that buff period, as the legendary Iron Staff should be to be honest (then of course it shrinks back down to something less O_O). 

[DeMonkey]

16 minutes ago, bbwb said:

interesting as a wet paper towel.

Hey now, I can think of many interesting things to do with a wet paper towel.... Maybe.

I'd actually go so far as to say that Defy is underpowered, comparatively. It's so underpowered in fact that 9 times out of 10 it does nothing but drain your energy.

I like your ideas, I can't fault them at all aside from wanting the cap increase to simply be a buff, and not require an augment. (Where am I supposed to put it in my build )

I've never been a Dragonballz fan, but I think a lot of people who are wouldn't mind being able to ''charge'' Defy in some way 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Given some more thought, I kinda like Defy as is. Gives me an opportunity to use self damage weapons without worrying about death. Can't really get that ease of mind anywhere else except with Nyx and maybe Rhino. Haven't played Rev, but his recent nerf to 20e/s on his Ult makes me want to avoid him completely at this point.