Defy 2.0

[DeMonkey]

It's been 1 month and 21 days since my last Wukong rework thread? That's long enough to not be spam... right? 

Regardless, I've long suspected that one of the reasons that DE haven't yet touched Wukong is because they know that Defy is somewhat OP, and that by addressing him they'll have to nerf Defy and anger people.

I, honestly, would be fine with that assuming that whatever Defy becomes is still useful enough to allow him to tank at an appropriately high level and is worth the energy cost. So, without further ado, 

Defy 2; Defy Harder.

Wukong loses his shields and gains damage reduction and health regeneration whilst drawing aggro towards himself. Health regeneration scales based on remaining health.

If killed whilst this ability is in effect Wukong defies death, gaining increased range and power strength on his abilities for x seconds and turning immortal whilst he heals himself. 

Proposed stats:

None of the numbers I'm proposing are ones that I'm set in stone on, except perhaps one.

Damage Reduction of 50%, affected by Power Strength. (This is the one I'm pretty set on, and I'll explain why later).

Health regeneration of 5% per second whilst above 75% health, 10% per second whilst between 75% and 50% health, 15% per second whilst between 50% and 25% health and 20% per second whilst under 25% health. The goal being the closer you get to the death the more Wukong fights to stay alive. Instead of percentage based healing, these numbers could also be replaced with flat healing, it's all the same to me.

25m of heightened threat generation (affecting at a max of 10/15 enemies to eliminate potential cheese).

On ''death'':

Wukong becomes immortal (same effect as before) and heals to full over the duration of his immortality, his immortality then goes on cooldown for a minute. Duration mods will reduce this duration, and kills made with Primal Fury will reduce it further.

Wukong also gains a 2x range multiplier and 1.5x power strength multiplier for, say 30 seconds (also affected by duration mods). (Essentially increasing not just his damage, but the range of his taunt).

Explanation:

I wanted Wukong to remain sufficiently tanky whilst requiring actual effort to achieve said tankiness. Furthermore, this change would remove the requirement to constantly recast Defy to keep refreshing his health values.

I also propose a Damage Reduction of 50% for a very singular reason, too much DR can affect rage (iirc) given it reduces the amount of health damage you take. For this reason I wanted to have the DR be low enough that, if fighting lower level enemies, you could build for a lower DR and still make use of rage for energy. Given that it's affected by Power Strength this would also mean that, upon death, you'd come back with a heightened DR value, so even if you pick a DR too low for the mission, Wukong will still keep you kicking.

I proposed the aggro and threat generation in the base ability (not an augment) so that there's actually a reason to use the ability in sub level 100 content, because currently there isn't. As it is Defy is honestly the single most boring ability in the game.

I also made this proposition whilst keeping in mind that Wukong should be getting changes to his other abilities. 2x range whilst useful for taunt range I'm also considering useful for any future ability that may make use of it.

With these changes I would actually consider 5 eps a justifiable price for Defy.

I wanted to encourage Primal Fury usage whilst not making it required. You can use it occasionally to recharge Defy, or you can build purely for Duration at the cost of other stats.

And finally...

LOOK AT HIM. LOOK HOW ADORABLE HE IS. HE DESERVES LOVE. LOVE HIM!

That is all.

Spoiler

It's 7am and I still haven't slept. Be gentle.

 

[(PSN)OriginalEquinox]

Ainobody loves monkey boy, rework Nezha instead!

[DeMonkey]

Just now, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

Ainobody loves monkey boy, rework Nezha instead!

I can't hear you over the sound of how much cooler Wukong is.

Spoiler

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Buff Nidus instead 😛

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Buff Nidus instead 😛

The frame that has Defy as a passive, for free, whilst also having 95% DR, high health and very decent health regen?

Yes. Lets Buff him 

(I know you were joking despite not being able to see the emoticon used )

[(PSN)purpleskullgamin]

37 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

The frame that has Defy as a passive, for free, whilst also having 95% DR, high health and very decent health regen?

Yes. Lets Buff him 

(I know you were joking despite not being able to see the emoticon used )

Yeah, just remove the stacks gimmick and make him have the max potential at all times.

 

[DeMonkey]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)purpleskullgamin said:

Yeah, just remove the stacks gimmick and make him have the max potential at all times.

 

That's not a buff though, that's just a quality of life feature. 

[(PSN)purpleskullgamin]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

That's not a buff though, that's just a quality of life feature. 

True, especially to anyone who actually knows how to play the game and isn't nidus. The amounts of times I've heard nidus's whining about not being able to get stacks is far to high.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

20 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

cooldown for a minute

I dislike this on every ability that has this.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, (PS4)purpleskullgamin said:

True, especially to anyone who actually knows how to play the game and isn't nidus. The amounts of times I've heard nidus's whining about not being able to get stacks is far to high.

Exactly, when you really think about it, the quality of life change isn't for Nidus themself, but for everyone else. It's genius.

It's also completely off topic 

Just now, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I dislike this on every ability that has this.

That's why it's only on the revive portion, and can be countered easily be actively using his other abilities.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

5 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

That's why it's only on the revive portion, and can be countered easily be actively using his other abilities.

To be honest, I don't see a problem with the ability as is. Warframes difficulty has already been neutered with buffs to other frames making them practically gods in comparison to defy.

The reason I imagine people don't use Wukong is because his other abilities excluding Defy suck.

Edited July 25, 2018 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru
Grammar

[DeMonkey]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

To be honest, I don't see a problem with the ability as is. Warframes difficulty has already been neutered with buffs to other frames making them practically gods in comparison to defy.

The reason I imagine people don't use Wukong is because his other abilities excluding Defy suck.

Defy has a huge problem where it isn't useful in enough content. You turn it on if enemies can kill you, you don't turn it on if they can't kill you. There's no thought to be put into the ability, it mechanically does nothing, it's not interesting, it's not fun.

Perhaps you don't see the problem with the ability, and fair enough, but I have a huge problem with an ability that saps 5eps for absolutely no return in 90% of the games content.

I don't see the relevance of your last sentence.

[xXDeadsinxX]

You know, I may use Defy in about all my missions I’m in when I’m using Wukong and I really wouldn’t mind seeing it being changed into something else, which is coming a lot from me since I love my tanky frames. As you said, if they add something else into Wukong’s kit to make him just as tanky as he is right now, I definitely wouldn’t mind that at all. I must say though, what you’ve suggested sounds pretty interesting actually, I’m just hoping that they look at him soon, he needs some serious love. 

[DeMonkey]

7 hours ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

You know, I may use Defy in about all my missions I’m in when I’m using Wukong and I really wouldn’t mind seeing it being changed into something else, which is coming a lot from me since I love my tanky frames. As you said, if they add something else into Wukong’s kit to make him just as tanky as he is right now, I definitely wouldn’t mind that at all. I must say though, what you’ve suggested sounds pretty interesting actually, I’m just hoping that they look at him soon, he needs some serious love. 

He really does need love.

With the proposal he could be almost as tanky as he currently is, it'll just require a bit more effort to get there (no bad thing)... Which isn't hard tbh, given how little effort his current immortality requires.

I need that taunt though, it 100% fits his kit and theme. Watch any media production involving Wukong and it shows him screwing around with his opponent, chucking apples at them, dancing on their chest, mocking them etc.

Spoiler

 

Although the subtitles are screwed up, at 1:14 he gives the Demon King a ''Is that all you've got?''.

Edited July 25, 2018 by DeMonkey

[Misgenesis]

I really dont see how this would change it from being OP. Primal Fury being a melee weapon means you could easily negate the cooldown in just a couple of spins due to how broken the system is.

A range and strength buff are a little too convenient in this case. I suppose it would stop you from countering sortie boss cheese but thats about it.

[xXDeadsinxX]

39 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

He really does he love.

With the proposal he could be almost as tanky as he currently is, it'll just require a bit more effort to get there (no bad thing)... Which isn't hard tbh, given how little effort his current immortality requires.

I need that taunt though, it 100% fits his kit and theme. Watch any media production involving Wukong and it shows him screwing around with his opponent, chucking apples at them, dancing on their chest, mocking them etc.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Although the subtitles are screwed up, at 1:14 he gives the Demon King a ''Is that all you've got?''.

Yeah I agree with you so much, putting in the effort is definitely a good thing for sure, that’s the main reason why I enjoy using Nidus as well. But yeah, the current Defy is pretty boring at the moment and I would love to see it be changed into an ability where we have to put in the effort, ‘cause not only does it feel good after all your hard work pays off for that said ability, but then it’s overall an ability you’d interact with a lot more.

Edited July 25, 2018 by xXDeadsinxX

[DeMonkey]

7 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

I really dont see how this would change it from being OP. Primal Fury being a melee weapon means you could easily negate the cooldown in just a couple of spins due to how broken the system is.

A range and strength buff are a little too convenient in this case. I suppose it would stop you from countering sortie boss cheese but thats about it.

Depends on the numbers. Could follow a typical Moba format where kills with Primal Fury reduce the cooldown by a second, but there's then an internal cooldown of a second to stop you sweeping through a cluster and instantly resetting it.

I don't see range and strength being "too convenient". Could you elaborate on that?

[Misgenesis]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Depends on the numbers. Could follow a typical Moba format where kills with Primal Fury reduce the cooldown by a second, but there's then an internal cooldown of a second to stop you sweeping through a cluster and instantly resetting it.

I don't see range and strength being "too convenient". Could you elaborate on that?

Tying PF to Defy immortality means a range and strength buff would make it easier to reset the cooldown. PF already has a high range and more strength is the last thing any viable melee needs right now.

But as you said it depends on the numbers overall.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Misgenesis said:

Tying PF to Defy immortality means a range and strength buff would make it easier to reset the cooldown. PF already has a high range and more strength is the last thing any viable melee needs right now.

But as you said it depends on the numbers overall.

PF has one of the worst ranges in the game. You'll struggle to hit enemies 4m away at max length, a Tipedo with Primed Reach can hit enemies 5m away.

Range mods also don't affect how long the staff is, only how quickly it grows to it's cap.

People who predominantly use Primal Fury will already have it at max length, and people who would only use it in short bursts will likely use Primed Reach instead to almost hit the cap on cast.

That's not to say I'd be against a range buff for it... nudge nudge DE.

The Power Strength was intended less for Primal Fury since you're right, it doesn't need the damage, but for other potential abilities. You'd get temporarily heightened DR from Defy for example. There's also plenty of ability suggestions out there that this could benefit, such as the clone and transformation suggestions. 

[Doforcash]

I'll support your idea if you agree that Volt could also use some buff :<>

sexy boi is sexy, plz agree

[seprent]

2 minutes ago, Doforcash said:

I'll support your idea if you agree that Volt could also use some buff :<>

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

sexy boi is sexy, plz agree

 

every trailer i saw of volt just channeling shock into things i wished i could do the same while the zap is funny for dismissing things i wanna be got damn palpatine and shout about unlimited power as i walk around being the human amprex or even just stand there and just continually zap like a laser but lightning 

[DeMonkey]

13 minutes ago, Doforcash said:

I'll support your idea if you agree that Volt could also use some buff :<>

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

sexy boi is sexy, plz agree

 

You drive a hard bargain, but I accept.

Volt needs a buff to be Emperor Palpatine or we riot.

[(PSN)purpleskullgamin]

Looks at the Volt stuff in my description.

Volt need help bad enough it's my description...

 

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

I still want Furys range cap increased to 400% and some more strikes added to the combo when he is spinning like the multi striking combos of staff stances.. oh and the compression of the first two strikes into a single button press to enable easier use of the pause and hold combos (particularly with lots of attack speed affecting the ability).

 

as for Defy being boring, yes its true but the same can be said of Iron skin. this does seem like a interesting rework that would make it somewhat universally useful...

why not make energy cost and the damage resistance also dynamically increase the lower your health. base energy cost could be much lower to start, and damage resistance could be also to allow for better use of Rage. between 100% and 50% if energy cost and damage resistance scaled from 10% of their max value as determined by mods, so the lower your health, the faster you regenerate health/resist damage/loose energy to the ability.

 

 

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

I still want Furys range cap increased to 400%

Would that even be enough?

If we look at it mathematically, with 200% bonus range I'm struggling to hit enemies 4m away, but for the sake of discussion lets say it's 4m. If it's only hitting 4m after increasing in range by 200% then it's base range is a mere 1.3 reoccurring metres. 

Therefore at 400% increased range it would be at 6.66 reoccurring metres... Still pretty short compared to things like the Orthos... 

10 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

as for Defy being boring, yes its true but the same can be said of Iron skin. this does seem like a interesting rework that would make it somewhat universally useful...

I... somewhat agree, yes. However with Iron Skin you also gain immunity to Crowd Control. Unlike with Defy, there's actually a reason to turn it on at lower levels because it has some effect. Plus, when you have an augmented build then I personally think that Iron Skin becomes one of the more interesting tanking abilities in the game. Trying to line up that perfect charge to boost your armour, being able to explode your Iron Skin at will and recast it. 

13 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

why not make energy cost and the damage resistance also dynamically increase the lower your health. base energy cost could be much lower to start, and damage resistance could be also to allow for better use of Rage. between 100% and 50% if energy cost and damage resistance scaled from 10% of their max value as determined by mods, so the lower your health, the faster you regenerate health/resist damage/loose energy to the ability.

I was certainly thinking about it, but was unsure as to how people would react. I agree that, at higher health levels and subsequently less health regen and potentially less DR, it should cost less energy.