[Warframe Rework Concept] Zephyr: A Take on Controllable Tailwind, "Stable Tornado" and More

[FoxFX]

[KEY ZEPHYR FACTS AND ISSUES TO ADDRESS]

• Zephyr is the Air-themed Warframe with general powers allowing her to bend the currents of air to her favor. Name derived from Zephyrus of the Anemoi in Greek legend.

• Zephyr is among the few Warframes made from a Fan Concept to arrive among the roster of today's Warframes.

• Zephyr is perhaps the very first Warframe released with a passive (released during Update 12 era) and the first Warframe to be added as obtainable in the Clan Dojo at that time. Her release also has the Easter Egg allowing players to play the "Happy Zephyr" mini-game (tribute to the Flappy Bird game).

• Zephyr's passive, Lightweight, makes her descend much slower in mid-air. Overtime, the capabilities of this passive was not looked into much, but overtime complaints have arrived that it leaves Zephyr currently too open to attacks and makes her feel slow.

• Zephyr's Tailwind is considered the "mid-air Slash Dash" allowing Zephyr to instantly zoom through maps in an instant. This ability is famous for its uses in the Cetus (and soon Fortuna) Plains as it allows players to traverse through larger maps. However, more suggestions are starting to appear requesting a way to cancel the mid-flight. There is also more complaints appearing on how useful Hover Jump mechanic and Divebomb mechanics (in topic of Divebomb's angle detection) of Tailwind benefit Zephyr's playstyle.

• Zephyr's Air Burst is a simple air-projectile attack which will explode upon surface/enemy contact or after traversing over 100 meters. So far, the ability serves as a synergy mechanic for Tornado expanding their size. Other than this, there doesn't seem to be any other encouraging reason to use this ability.

• Zephyr's Turbulence has been one of the abilities highlighting Zephyr as a good Warframe. Being a very defensive ability that is independent of Strength Modifications is something a lot of players find very appealing to this ability. This ability however limits its protection to incoming projectiles alone.

• Zephyr's Tornado, after her recent revamp, has been reported to improve in its enemy tracking capabilities and it no longer ragdolls enemies as much as its previous version. It also now comes with a damage gimmick where all attacks/status/criticals on a Tornado gets transferred to the captured targets (Critical Damage is doubled in a Tornado) along with making Tornadoes change in Damage Type depending on the highest Damage-Type added to it. At base, Tornado still has the ragdoll problem making enemies caught in Tornadoes sometimes fling outside of it and the randomness of the Ragdoll can make it inconvenient for party plays.

Zephyr has been proclaimed as the "Plains Warframe" due to the nature of her traverse-benefits of Tailwind (though there have been more and more players wishing to control it in some way). Most of the builds in the past favored the Turbulence Augment builds for the protection and team support it offers from Zephyr. But now, there has been builds in favor of the Funnel Cloud Augment for improving the DPS potential of Zephyr. However, these builds are very dependent on the Augment especially for the huge upside Funnel Cloud offers in comparison to Tornado: the removal of the ragdoll.

The overall goal for this rework is to solve the Tailwind control problem while making a way to prevent loosing the momentum she has. This includes a few experimental Tailwind changes, a new 2nd ability change, and a new take on the Tornado ability's Crowd Control.

 

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[ZEPHYR'S PASSIVE: LIGHTWEIGHT]

The terror Zephyr's passive provides for some players have them complain how it distorts Zephyr's combat when it comes to missions with Magnetic Anomalies, Low Gravity Nightmares, and dealing with enemies in general while Zephyr is in the air. However, Zephyr is the Warframe of air, and giving her the ability to control her air combat is something I feel should still be maintained. Which is why I am adding this suggestion to change LIGHTWEIGHT into HOVER:

 

[ZEPHYR'S NEW REPLACING PASSIVE SUGGESTION: HOVER]

Quote

Zephyr has double the Air Glide Duration and Zephyr no longer descends while aiming in Air Glide. Zephyr can maneuver around in this "stable" Air Glide.

What this is doing is stripping away Tailwind's Hover Jump and adding this as the new passive gimmick to Zephyr. A limited "stationary" Air Glide that also allows Zephyr to move around in before the Aim Glide's meter depletes.

 

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[ZEPHYR'S FIRST ABILITY: TAILWIND]

The "air borne Slash Dash" has had its issues with how players wished for more control over its trajectory whether wishing to stop the travel or have a way to redirect it (fly around and all). The opinions for this ability's control mechanic that can be added to it are rather split. Some have wished for Zephyr's Tailwind to have the same free degree control like Titania but this would be slower. Some have asked for being able to dodge roll out of this ability to stop the momentum.

Stripping away Tailwind's "Hover Jump" so it can be added to an aspect of Zephyr's new passive was also a change to make Tailwind's Divebomb a much stronger ability. Divebomb suffers a lot from the required angle detection it needs to actually make Divebomb land. There is a way to make the Divebomb trigger much more consistent without needing to worry of such a thing.

As it is now, Tailwind does pure Slash damage with Divebomb dealing Impact. To make the control and damage potential of Tailwind and Divebomb more consistent, this is what I have come up with a Tailwind "stop" which I will list as an optional suggestion:

•  

  Quote

   

  Gif for Visual Concept of Tailwind Idea

  • [+ Tailwind Wall Latch Mechanic] Colliding into flat walls with Tailwind causes Zephyr to automatically Wall Latch to that wall with a special timer counting down for X seconds. If Zephyr reactivates Tailwind before that countdown depletes, that Tailwind will cost 1/2 the Energy.

  • [+ Aim Glide Tailwind Cancel] Using the "Aim Button" while in Tailwind causes Zephyr to automatically stop for X seconds. Zephyr can then use Tailwind again with free Energy cost if you use Tailwind before that timer runs out.

  • [+ Zephyr's 2nd + Tailwind Cancel] Using Zephyr's [Second Ability] causes Tailwind to stop and launches the ability for increased range and damage.

  • [+ Tailwind Duration Visual Cue] Tailwind shows a meter to indicate when Tailwind's duration of travel expires.

  • [+ EXPERIMENTAL Zephyr's Body is a Weapon; Damage Scale based on Health Stats] Tailwind and Divebomb now have their damage increased based on the total stats of Zephyr's Health and Shield. ###% of Shield+Health is added to Tailwind and ###% of Shield+Health is added to Divebomb (Divebomb gains more).

  Gif for Visual Concept of Divebomb Idea

  • [+ OPTIONAL Divebomb becomes "Meteor Strike!!!"] Holding down Tailwind for a little over a second causes Zephyr to jet disappearing from the area. For a few seconds, the player has free degree movement to unleash a Divebomb wherever they move a Divebomb landing indicator to. Pressing "Fire Button" drains Energy while increasing the drop damage of DiveBomb.

  • [- Remove Target Fixation resetting Damage Bonus if Zephyr Wall Latches]

   

   

Players enjoyed the quick maneuvering of Tailwind and changing how it functions would deter the traverse capabilities which makes Zephyr shine in the Plains. But now, you have a way to stop and redirect Tailwind's momentum with this rework idea in many scenarios. Colliding into a wall will make Zephyr Wall Latch to that wall so you can carefully choose and redirect your next move with reduced cost. You can now stop Tailwind mid-way with the aim button to do the same.

The suggestion for Divebomb also requires that the "charging-Hover Jump" gimmick to be replaced as a new way to Divebomb. This new charging Divebomb is something akin to some function of Overwatch character's Doomfist's ultimate. I feel that having an ability that allows Zephyr to reposition herself vertically without fear of what terrain/map she is a better take for Divebomb and Zephyr herself.

Improving the damage of Tailwind/Divebomb I feel is something that is necessary to bring in more appeal to the ability itself especially with the augment [Target Fixation] requiring hitting enemies to benefit the damage boost it can give. At base, Tailwind doesn't scale at all making the augment's purpose feel moot. Giving Tailwind some punching power can be an optional change. This along with removing [Target Fixation]'s resetting the damage buff if Wall Latching should make this a bit more convenient.

 

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[ZEPHYR'S SECOND ABILITY: AIR BLAST]

In hindsight, Air Burst's purpose is simply to be "feed me Tornado to make it taller." There is also a lot of ragdoll in Zephyr's kit and I feel Air Burst deserves to be an ability that isn't only Tornado's fooder. Air Blast in itself doesn't have a lot of damage added to them either to be noted.

Here is an experimental idea for Air Burst: "Use your enemy's weight against them!"

• [Air Burst Lift and Slam] Enemies hit by Zephyr's Air Burst trajectory or AOE are instantly suspended high in controlled winds for a brief few seconds. After the short duration expires, the winds forcefully drop the enemies to the ground with increased pressure dealing a portion of their Health+Armor as AOE damage. Enemies are lifted up by # meters from the ground this way.

• [EXPERIMENTAL: Tailwind + Air Burst Interaction] Hitting mid-air enemies affected by Air Burst with Tailwind increases the damage Tailwind does to them by ###% while they are suspended by Air Blast (they are not knocked out of Air Burst's CC by Tailwind). Casting Air Blast while under Tailwind causes enemies hit by this Air Blast to receive ### bonus slam damage and makes them suspend longer by 50%.

Zephyr is the "air bender" of Warframe, and I had thought of using the enemy's weight against them as an interesting concept that could be useful for Zephyr. Imagining Zephyr just lifting enemies up so high with her wind powers and then stopping those winds to just let gravity do its job.

This variant of Air Burst makes it more of a stand-alone CC/Damage ability with AOE capabilities. Plus, it has now some more life interacting with Tailwind and Tornado (which I will get talking about later).

 

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[ZEPHYR'S THIRD ABILITY: TURBULENCE]

There isn't anything bad I can say about this ability so far. It is a no-Strength-required defensive ability that can deter enemy projectiles...enough has been said for this. The augment for it is also very noteworthy for its support it can provide to allies.

There is one thing I would like to add to Turbulence:

• [+ OPTIONAL Turbulence + Tailwind Expansion] While Turbulence is active, double the radius of Tailwind's hit box.

 

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[ZEPHYR'S FOURTH ABILITY: TORNADO]

 

Despite the recent rework, Tornado's ragdoll will still launch enemies away from its grasp. This is most likely why Funnel Cloud builds are the most preferred builds if a Zephyr wants to use Tornado. Though Funnel Cloud does remove the CC of Tornado completely for extra combo and damage potential. However, Tornado is random and Zephyr can only steer one through aiming right now.

Ragdoll CC maybe fun at times, but I feel they are more effective if ragdoll CC outputs a more noteworthy result (whether it is the damage like Tentacle Swarm, heavy debuff like Banshee's Sonic Fracture, or is combined with another easy-to-capitalize CC like Nexha's Divine Spear).

So for now, to make Tornado the Damaging/CC ability, I feel it is time to remove the ragdoll and go for something that is a lot more "stable" and stationary if it captures an enemy.

•  

  Quote

   

  • [+ Tornado...a Damaging Bastille?!] Activate Tornado to trap X enemies within ## meters from the casting point in Cyclones. Cyclones lift enemies like Vauban's Bastille (though you can have them spin around in that fixed axis) and deal continuous damage to the enemies until duration ends or when they are killed. If an enemy is killed, the lone Tornado will seek out the nearest enemy it can find to levitate and stop in its damaging trap. (Maintains the Elemental Damage and Damage Distribution Gimmick). Tornadoes also move at the same running speed of Zephyr (Affected by Turbulence's Augment as well).

  • [+ New Tailwind + Tornado Mechanic] Enemies hit my Tailwind while trapped in Tornado increases damage deal by Tornado by ###%

  • [+ New Air Burst + Tornado Mechanic] Air Burst hitting a Tornado causes that Tornado to spawn another which lasts for the remainder of Tornado's duration. Air Burst also adds Tornado + Tailwind extra damage mechanic by +###%.

  • [+ CHANGE Funnel Cloud into an Accuracy-Reducing/Bullet Absorb Augment] Funnel Cloud now makes each Tornado emit an aura of dust. Enemies in this Aura have the Accuracy of hit-scan attacks be reduced by ##%. Enemies attacking with non-hitscan weapon/projectiles have those projectiles get absorbed into the Tornadoes adding damage to them.

   

   

Tornado now keeps enemies still and will stay in place as they levitate enemies in these damaging cyclones (though you could also have this ability make enemies trapped by this spin around in their axis like some top for aesthetics). You still have what makes Tornado a powerful CC/Damage ability, but now it is more controllable and stable. Plus, you can use Air Burst to create MORE Tornadoes to trap enemies in (which you should take advantage of Air Burst's AOE if you wish to create more Tornadoes to trap enemies). This new mid-air Tailwind gimmick is just a special idea I wanted to present to make Tailwind feel more of a striking ability. You are moving at supersonic speed using Zephyr's body like some sort of projectile after all.

 

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[ADDITIONAL REWORK THOUGHTS/FEEDBACK]

• [OPTIONAL Tailwind idea: Tailwind + Ivara's Navigator Mechanic] Tailwind now behaves similar to Ivara's Navigator allowing Tailwind free degree movement. Aim Button to slow down and Fire Button to speed up. (This was my initial idea I was to present for Tailwind, but I figured some people would argue that they can't use Navigator and having Tailwind act in a similar manner would be bad). [Gif Above showing Ivara's Navigator. Imagining Zephyr as the bullet]

• [OPTIONAL Turn Divebomb into Zephyr's new 4th and further jump its damage + range] This Divebomb would me like the "Meteor Strike" Divebomb idea presented in the OP.

• [OPTIONAL Make Air Burst's explosion create Tornadoes for enemies caught in the AOE] This was to go hand-in-hand with the "Divebomb being 4th idea"

Edited July 26, 2018 by FoxFX

[Aeon94]

Awesome ideas :O

I'd be a Zephyr main with these changes.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Zephyr is good. She is plains frame. Best frame.

[FoxFX]

5 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Zephyr is good. She is plains frame. Best frame.

 

I don't deny the potential Zephyr has to traverse through the larger maps like the plains, however I feel Zephyr still miss the mark on her potential striking power and the consistency of her crowd control. This this is why I have made this thread to spool as much ideas to solve the reported problems players have with Zephyr and more.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

Before the rework you could ALREADY:

-Wall latch to stop the Tail wind, the ability would still attempt to move you if you let go of the wall latch though.

-Aim Glide to halt Tail wind, it greatly reduced or nearly stopped the speed of Tail wind, being able to jump(by casting Tail wind on the ground) and start Aim gliding at about the desired height

Unfortunately the rework absolutely removed these in trade of the unstoppable mess provided.

The passive change is a must.
Tail wind needs to be re-reworked or put back to how it originally was.
I think the Turbulence + Tail wind synergy would be good since Tail wind's hitbox and damage is negligible
 

[FoxFX]

3 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

Before the rework you could ALREADY:

-Wall latch to stop the Tail wind, the ability would still attempt to move you if you let go of the wall latch though.

-Aim Glide to halt Tail wind, it greatly reduced or nearly stopped the speed of Tail wind, being able to jump(by casting Tail wind on the ground) and start Aim gliding at about the desired height

Unfortunately the rework absolutely removed these in trade of the unstoppable mess provided.

The passive change is a must.
Tail wind needs to be re-reworked or put back to how it originally was.
I think the Turbulence + Tail wind synergy would be good since Tail wind's hitbox and damage is negligible
 

 

I believe they removed those two points you mentioned in favor of making Zephyr the highlight of the Plains. But with the existence of the Focus System, even something as slow-paced as Inaros can traverse fast enough through the powers of the Operator. But that is in the scenario that a player does grind that extensively.

Giving Tailwind the punching power it needs I feel is imperative. It might be a more welcoming change for the content yet to come.

[Teridax68]

I think these changes are brilliant, and come from a good place. Zephyr is a fun frame, but has always felt less-than-perfect, because she lacks the control and true freedom one expected from an air-based frame. Tailwind in particular has the potential to be one of the best mobility effects in the game (and it already feels great to use in the Plains of Eidolon), but is hampered by its clunkiness and utter lack of contextual interaction with parkour and terrain. Similarly, Zephyr's passive has the potential to be fun and thematic, due to how it lets Zephyr remain airborne for longer, but is implemented in a way that is considered a hazard in most other cases. Enabling greater and finer control over these effects I think could be a huge step forward in making Zephyr feel much smoother to play.

Additionally, I agree that Air Blast and Tornado could both use some sprucing up. In both cases, I feel the focus should be on having them suspend enemies, rather than just ragdoll them. I agree that the main problem with both is that they're a bit too chaotic in how they throw enemies, and as such often feel more like a hindrance than a help. Additionally, Tornado's visuals still tend to blot out the screen, and I think increasing the transparency of the tornadoes could be a big help. In the case of Air Burst, I think the ability could still be good just by ragdolling enemies, provided it threw them in slow-motion, carrying them across an air current instead of slapping them down at random. In both cases, it would be better if these effects allowed players to lay down precise follow-up, instead of having the messy damage distribution we have now.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

15 hours ago, FoxFX said:

 

I don't deny the potential Zephyr has to traverse through the larger maps like the plains, however I feel Zephyr still miss the mark on her potential striking power and the consistency of her crowd control. This this is why I have made this thread to spool as much ideas to solve the reported problems players have with Zephyr and more.

Zephyr has no problems. She is plains only. People complain because they are bad players and don't know anything. Ask @Thaylien.

[Birdframe_Prime]

I have been summoned... @(PS4)RenovaKunumaru you're really dragging me into things again... XD

But... I'm not actually going to get into it.

This thread features so many changes that I actually don't really think work, and a completely different design philosophy to Zephyr. I don't think I'll be able to say anything here of relevance.

Not to insult the OP, of course. I just have an entirely different way of thinking about this frame ^^

[Caelward]

@FoxFX

Your concept is far too aggressive and thought out. You're also not pandering to the mainstream. Going by these two points I already know DE won't pay you any attention. If they were going to do so the current Zephyr would be very different. The Rework would have been fundamentally deeper.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

34 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

I have been summoned... @(PS4)RenovaKunumaru you're really dragging me into things again... XD

But... I'm not actually going to get into it.

This thread features so many changes that I actually don't really think work, and a completely different design philosophy to Zephyr. I don't think I'll be able to say anything here of relevance.

Not to insult the OP, of course. I just have an entirely different way of thinking about this frame ^^

I'm enjoying this honestly. These are all I told you so threads to me. I'm not normally one to condone that but the community deserves it. 

In any case I'll address this thread for my own entertainment.

To those who don't like Zephyrs passive, git gud. It's literally one of the most defining features of her kit, giving her a movement alteration that's unparalleled to anything offered by any other frame. The aerial time and control you have vs other frames cannot be matched even though aim glide. Those who complain about it are those who fail to put the time required to master it. Stop asking for easy and look for ways to be better.

Your Tailwind changes are all sorts of crazy. Sticking to walls on collision and all other matters of systems in place when you perform a function while under the effects of Tailwind. They're all unnecessary. Do you think DE is really going to invest time into making all of these effects for a single skill? Let me help you: tapping Tailwind while under the effects of Tailwind cancels momentum. Done. Holding Tailwind creates a cursor that let's Zephyr aim a Divebomb.

Turbulence needs no changes.

Airburst sucks. It should've have been an ability to begin with but DE isn't savvy enough to fix Divebomb when it was it's own skill and allow it to be aimable and scale with melee mods. So what to do now..who cares. They won't change Zephyr anyway.

Tornado could've been so much more than what it was but let's looks at DE not caring about effectiveness rather than gimmick traits. It picks people up and wanders all over the place. But at least it's initial cast is aimable and recastable. Oh well missed opportunity there too. 

In conclusion, while plenty of players made sure to voice their concerns over Zephyr, DE ignored them and worried about "Ember". When Zephyr got her "rework" players praised a Warframe who was virtually the same and suffered the exact same problems she had since conception.

Therefore at this point, too bad. We all get to suffer from the community incompetence as people praise mediocrity.

[FoxFX]

REVIEW ON CONCEPT OF TAILWIND SUGGESTION

This thread was posted in the Reddit and talked over in Discord and Warframe's Council Chat.

Many times I had observed players thinking of ways to have control over Tailwind to make it more versatile in areas outside of the plains. While I initially had time to test Tailwind further, I understood why some would want some way to control the momentum Tailwind offers in case they were to use the ability and they get themselves caught going out of the map or into dangerous situations.

My initial though as posted in the OP was to make feel while Tailwind turns Zephyr into a "mid-air bullet," that aiming could instantly stop that momentum so a player can just stop and reevaluate where they want to go next. The "wall latch" gimmick was something I thought could make Zephyr bounce around Tailwind attacking in more cramped-up area. I do understand one potential downside for this idea is this "instant wall latching" once a Tailwind-Zephyr would collide to a wall. Some players would rather have just Tailwind be stopped and not rely too much on the Wall Latching. HOWEVER, I do feel that to actually make the Tailwind Augment [Target Fixation] have a bit more appear, Wall Latching should NOT reset the damage bonus it offers. Tailwind has potential to have the similar striking power that the current "Slash-Dash" abilities out there due to its Slash-Damage Type Tailwind has. It was a bit of an oversight to not suggest Tailwind to have 100% status chance for its Slash-Attacks.

The other option I wanted to present was to make Tailwind have a similar movement mechanic to Ivara's Navigator, but there could be a high amount of players that would complain they would not prefer the control scheme that would have. So I have only added that as the collection of back-up ideas for now.

As for this "Meteor-Strike Divebomb," I feel this would have the better potential as a vertical and striking ability if it was done this way especially in the more tighter areas. Having Warframes disappear into the sky to then dive down for a slam attack is something that Wukong's Cloud Walker could be redesigned to, but for Zephyr it could work wonders.

My greatest error for the Tailwind suggestions was over-scoping the ideas for it.

[FoxFX]

9 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I'm enjoying this honestly. These are all I told you so threads to me. I'm not normally one to condone that but the community deserves it. 

In any case I'll address this thread for my own entertainment.

To those who don't like Zephyrs passive, git gud. It's literally one of the most defining features of her kit, giving her a movement alteration that's unparalleled to anything offered by any other frame. The aerial time and control you have vs other frames cannot be matched even though aim glide. Those who complain about it are those who fail to put the time required to master it. Stop asking for easy and look for ways to be better.

Your Tailwind changes are all sorts of crazy. Sticking to walls on collision and all other matters of systems in place when you perform a function while under the effects of Tailwind. They're all unnecessary. Do you think DE is really going to invest time into making all of these effects for a single skill? Let me help you: tapping Tailwind while under the effects of Tailwind cancels momentum. Done. Holding Tailwind creates a cursor that let's Zephyr aim a Divebomb.

Turbulence needs no changes.

Airburst sucks. It should've have been an ability to begin with but DE isn't savvy enough to fix Divebomb when it was it's own skill and allow it to be aimable and scale with melee mods. So what to do now..who cares. They won't change Zephyr anyway.

Tornado could've been so much more than what it was but let's looks at DE not caring about effectiveness rather than gimmick traits. It picks people up and wanders all over the place. But at least it's initial cast is aimable and recastable. Oh well missed opportunity there too. 

In conclusion, while plenty of players made sure to voice their concerns over Zephyr, DE ignored them and worried about "Ember". When Zephyr got her "rework" players praised a Warframe who was virtually the same and suffered the exact same problems she had since conception.

Therefore at this point, too bad. We all get to suffer from the community incompetence as people praise mediocrity.

 

I appreciate the modest feedback in this rework thread (and I have admit to overshooting changes for Tailwind).

I do however believe we should not downside the community as such. Things such as these takes time for the community to rethink the standings of current Warframes that have not been updated since months and years of patches and updates. Overtime, these updates in Warframe has gradually changed the meta of this game drastically.

Mistakes are always made, we just need to rethink and learn from them.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Alright, alright, you guys badgered me into it.

Let's have a look.

Passive:

This was suggested multiple times in the great Zephyr rush of 2017. Even by me. In fact we even had our favourite .gif to support the idea and show that it did actually work in games as a concept.

So you would simply hover in place, or glide around like this, with the Warframe 'Aim Glide' effects applied.

We already covered it, and none of our suggestions were included in the Rework.

I have to say, though, that playing with Zephyr using her current passive is one of the real joys of using the frame, there is something freeing about watching other frames leap and bounce around corners in straight lines while I just... coast around them and line up with the next doorway in half the time.

Being in the air with Zephyr often feels slow, but the interesting thing is that it isn't. Zephyr preserves momentum and unless you actually press backwards, you don't slow down until you land.

Tailwind: Dash

There's a lot to be said about Tailwind, but funnily enough not a lot you can do to improve it without changing how it base functions. Even your changes have been noted to be massive, and... well, you're not wrong from a certain point of view. From my point of view, however, it's the way Tailwind functions that's hindering it and without this change:

Spoiler

De-coupling Tailwind from Duration is my biggest desire. It has always, always, always caused Zephyr to get stuck on geometry and then wait to drop to the ground and then proceed.

We currently have two parts to Tailwind itself, and that gives us a huge potential in modding; The range we travel and the momentum we have afterwards.

If we de-couple the cast from Duration and instead use Range and Strength, we only need a very small shift to how we think of Tailwind. The Range is the actual distance of travel when we tap 1, but the Strength dictates how much conservation of momentum we have after. On a normal cast we would have, say, 50% conservation, meaning we would slow down, but continue in the direction we were going. With a high Strength version we would scale up towards 90-100% conservation which gives us the exact version we have now. With a low Strength cast (like for max-range Turbulence) we would scale down to 25-20% and get hang time, where we're still going forward, but slowly.

If you think about this is modding terms, a Jet Stream build (typically more neutral Range and modestly increased Strength) will give us a short casting time, and a decent floating time after it in the direction of travel.

A Defense build, for Turbulence, is high Range and low Strength, meaning you would get a decent length cast, but nearly stop at the end, slowly moving in direction of travel.

High Duration is then completely viable in all locations and you can simply adjust how much Range and Strength you want in your builds to adjust how you perform in Turbulence and Airblast.

we won't get any actual improvement out of Tailwind itself, the cast is stuck in a rut as long as it's based solely on Duration.

Tailwind: Hover

As counter-productive as IKEA's kitchen department... In its current form. This one is an addition that I genuinely don't mind as a mechanical addition, but hate based on its implementation.

So far everyone has noted that it's an incredibly slow cast that interrupts all other actions (not desirable), only able to be done on the ground (not where Zephyr's supposed to be) and holds Zephyr in place the entire time of casting (not a good thing for a squishy frame like Zephyr being chased by the melee enemies this part of the ability is trying to evade).

But... DE did go to all the trouble of putting it in. They just put it in badly and need to fix the casting. This should be a mobile cast. A 1-second hold wherever you are, if on the ground it launches you up and hovers. If the changes to Tailwind's Dash are made, then the Hover length can even then be extended based on Duration too, another improvement people want from the Hover. If you're in the air, it stops you in place, great for when you've got a high-momentum build and want to not overshoot.

This would be a good improvement whether they changed up the Dash or not, but would be incredibly powerful when combined with that change.

Give it some real reason to be used; both a boost to mobility, and maybe something like a bonus to Headshot damage or something when you're in your little aerial perch.

Tailwind: Dive Bomb

Well, this one's been shuffled further and further away from grace over time. And this is where we divert again. An idea that came from elsewhere, all credit goes to the discussion that birthed it, was simply this:

Make it the second part of her Passive.

DE are bringing out the new Melee changes, where the Ground Slam becomes this aimed and directional function, rather than a straight-down smash. Zephyr also suffers while using the Ground Slam because her usual upward momentum actually slows down the Slam animation like hang-time and waits for you to accelerate back towards the ground again.

Fix Dive Bomb by making it her custom Melee Ground Slam function. Able to be used even when there's no melee weapon equipped, just for fun. When using the Ground Slam, Zephyr gains unique animation and adds speed, range and a small amount of fixed damage (based on height) to the Slam. Great with hammers ^^

Simple, and in theme. Also boosts the melee side of things and gives Zephyr that much-needed 'engage' with groups of enemies.

Failing that change, the biggest improvement of all would be just... an aiming reticle. Something to tell us when we're actually going to cast it instead of the Dash, because... let's be honest, we've all ground our beaks on the floor now, and we've all wondered where the exact point is, we've all wanted to know so that there's at least some reliability about it...

Airblast

On 2018-07-26 at 2:35 PM, FoxFX said:

In hindsight, Air Burst's purpose is simply to be "feed me Tornado to make it taller."

I completely disagree. The 'feed me to Tornado' portion does absolutely, functionally, nothing. There is no reason to use this feature unless you forgot you were on your Funnel Clouds build and want Tornado to still CC.

Airburst was brought in because Zephyr needed something in her kit, desperately, that addressed what to do when surrounded by the enemy types that can actually hurt her. What to cast in confined spaces, what to cast to clear a corridor.

And not clear as in 'kill', clear as in 'I want to get through here'.

Airburst is, fundamentally, exactly what a lot of people were asking for in her kit, which was to be able to push back melee and Aura-based enemies, have some cheap CC that didn't mean casting Tornado. It's also a way to deal with the one faction that she isn't so good at dealing with; the Infested.

Now a lot of people from the classic era (like me, Caelward, Renova and so on) know that this used to be Dive Bomb, and all Zephyr really needed was this ability improving in order to get that skill. But, if we were going to get a replacement second ability, we also knew the kinds of things that would be far more useful to her than this Airburst.

Sadly, we need to work with what we've got.

A simple flight-speed boost would be great, because if we're in the air, it's genuinely faster to just shoot enemies rather than try to use this ability. Maybe if we're in the Improved Hover, the speed gets a boost? Maybe it can be affected by Jet Stream? Something.

The Ragdoll is also good CC for those horrible melee units, but it's often too strong. What players wanted from this ability was not, as you've pointed out, the burst ragdoll. They wanted a grouping ability that could pull enemies away from Zephyr and into a point.

If the ragdoll on Airburst was inverted on the radial burst? Perfect. Bounce those enemies into the centre of the point of impact, then we can tear them apart.

In order to make Airburst actually worth feeding to Tornado, though... it needs to actually do something. Growing taller? Does. Nothing. Any actual boost to the ability for that extra energy cost would be fine, anything. Movement speed boost? Yeah. Longer capture duration? Heck Yeah! Anything.

Tornado

This one... After using it for quite a while now, on all sorts of levels of play, my earliest conclusion about the ability has only been strengthened. And, as such, there aren't many improvements I feel this ability needs.

My opinion, by the way, is that they've removed all the actual drawbacks that the previous version had. It still has its own down-sides, but they aren't the same ones.

You're not wrong that it needs to pick up and hold enemies better, the caveat to that is that it can't really be a damaging version of Vortex. Vortex is the ability that groups up and completely CC's the enemy, and it does no damage of its own as compensation. If Tornado can do such high damage while totally CC'ing the enemies it affects, then it does need to actually drop those enemies before the end of the ability.

I would completely take away the steering, myself, because I would rather re-cast to group up my funnels than steer them all back into position. As compensation for that, I would improve the base movement speed, and change up the casting positioning.

A left-over from Old Tornado is the casting positioning. It causes the funnels to spawn on enemies in range of the point of cast, which was great when the ability was a chaos-causer, you wanted it where it could cause the most chaos. Now that it's not, and it's a source of improved damage and status, we don't need it to spawn like that. Why? Because it can cause the funnels to spawn 25 to 50m away from where we actually pointed them. 200% range, quite easy on a Turbulence build, means that the spawning radius is 50m, so funnels can actually be 100m apart at the start of the ability.

We don't need that, we know where we want our Tornado cast, let it spawn in a set pattern around the point of cast, and then move outwards the way we actually want it to. Let it be in range of a melee swing or short burst of gunfire that can proc the element of choice on the funnels, and then let it move out to take on the enemies around the point we cast it.

The other improvement is that capture. Enemies captured should stay in the funnel for a fixed duration of time. Take a fixed amount of the base damage, take a fixed number of Status procs, and if it picks up multiple enemies at once, allow us time to actually fire into the funnel and damage them. If the combo with Airburst was to then extend that hold duration per funnel, this would make the use of that combo massively more powerful.

So...

Yeah, I have a lot of views, but my take on Zephyr is very different from yours, my friend ^^

I've also gone on for a while, so I'm just going to stop.

[DjKaplis]

22 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I'm enjoying this honestly. These are all I told you so threads to me. I'm not normally one to condone that but the community deserves it. 

In any case I'll address this thread for my own entertainment.

To those who don't like Zephyrs passive, git gud. It's literally one of the most defining features of her kit, giving her a movement alteration that's unparalleled to anything offered by any other frame. The aerial time and control you have vs other frames cannot be matched even though aim glide. Those who complain about it are those who fail to put the time required to master it. Stop asking for easy and look for ways to be better.

Your Tailwind changes are all sorts of crazy. Sticking to walls on collision and all other matters of systems in place when you perform a function while under the effects of Tailwind. They're all unnecessary. Do you think DE is really going to invest time into making all of these effects for a single skill? Let me help you: tapping Tailwind while under the effects of Tailwind cancels momentum. Done. Holding Tailwind creates a cursor that let's Zephyr aim a Divebomb.

Turbulence needs no changes.

Airburst sucks. It should've have been an ability to begin with but DE isn't savvy enough to fix Divebomb when it was it's own skill and allow it to be aimable and scale with melee mods. So what to do now..who cares. They won't change Zephyr anyway.

Tornado could've been so much more than what it was but let's looks at DE not caring about effectiveness rather than gimmick traits. It picks people up and wanders all over the place. But at least it's initial cast is aimable and recastable. Oh well missed opportunity there too. 

In conclusion, while plenty of players made sure to voice their concerns over Zephyr, DE ignored them and worried about "Ember". When Zephyr got her "rework" players praised a Warframe who was virtually the same and suffered the exact same problems she had since conception.

Therefore at this point, too bad. We all get to suffer from the community incompetence as people praise mediocrity.

I agree about passive, it's not easy to get used to but unique and quite fun.

Your solution to tailwind/dive bomb sounds good and simple enough.

Turbulence should stay same.

Air burst...instead of ragdolling and pushing enemies away would be great if it sucked enemies from a rather large area together at the point where Zephyr is aiming at (kind of like Vortex or larva (but only applies to enemies in range at time of cast like with Mag's pull), sucking enemies in a single location where they get knocked down and can be eliminated at once with weapons).

Tornados are almost ok, should just need a little change in behavior - instead of spamming randomly on enemies within range they should appear in small area around aiming recticle (kind of like titania's spellbind aim and area works) and only leave that starting area and seek out new targets within range when there are no enemies in spawn area or Zephyr moves them with aim. This way tornadoes could synergise well with my suggestion for airburst - airburst brings many enemies together and then you can cast a bunch of tornadoes on top of them. And if they store the damage you shoot into them and do that damage and status per second to enemies that get caught it becomes a great cc+dps ability.

 

These are the changes I would like to see for Zephyr...even tho I already have fun playing her. What do you guys think?

Edited July 28, 2018 by DjKaplis

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

3 hours ago, DjKaplis said:

Air burst...instead of ragdolling...

Yes I remember having this discussion long ago about this ability you mention on the forums. It was called kabatic vortex and once again DE ignored a good idea in favor for the amazing Zephyr we have now. Hardly a new construct, but I would've accepted it all the same over the garbage skill we have now. But no of course now. Get another ragdoll skill.

[FoxFX]

REVIEW ON CONCEPT OF AIRBURST SUGGESTION AND EXPANDING ITS INTERACTION

"Let use see how we can make Tailwind more appealing with Airburst." This initially was one of the discussion points I had when it came to Airburst.

Adding a different CC ability for enemies hit by Airburst was something we though of could be a more grounded effect. Lifting enemies hit then slamming them down for damage based on their weight.

The special kick we did was design Tailwind to deal more damage to mid-air targets. Mid-air targets would be applicable through the use of Airburst's lifting ability and the "Tornado Trap" suggestion I have made in the OP. It was something I felt could be more effective if Tailwind had a high Status Chance added to it.

Right now, Airburst ragdolls enemies pushing them away almost as random as enemies hit by the likes of Rhino's Charge, Nekros's Soul Punch, and Banshee's Sonic Boom. Many find these ragdolls to be more fun to utilize, but sometimes I have wondered if such an effect could do more harm than good. Let's say there is a player that finds it convenient for them to spam these sorts of abilities only to deter his teammates from finishing the enemy in one strike. This is not to say this CC effect is not effective at all, but for what it does there is room to design a bigger tradeoff.

[Caelward]

Divebomb had an augment that would have slotted very nicely into airburst. It would cause divebomb to draw in enemies within its aoe. Imagine airburst packing enemies into one spot instead of rag dolling them apart. I was rather confused why it wasn't transferred over to airburst for the rework.

[FoxFX]

5 hours ago, Caelward said:

Divebomb had an augment that would have slotted very nicely into airburst. It would cause divebomb to draw in enemies within its aoe. Imagine airburst packing enemies into one spot instead of rag dolling them apart. I was rather confused why it wasn't transferred over to airburst for the rework.

 

I do recall the augment, though the damage Divebomb did was seen by players to be less than noticeable. Which is part of the reason players wanted Divebomb to merge with Tailwind. If Divebomb had the striking power to even encourage players to consider using it, then maybe Divebomb could've been remained and reworked as its stand-alone ability.

[Caelward]

12 hours ago, FoxFX said:

 

I do recall the augment, though the damage Divebomb did was seen by players to be less than noticeable. Which is part of the reason players wanted Divebomb to merge with Tailwind. If Divebomb had the striking power to even encourage players to consider using it, then maybe Divebomb could've been remained and reworked as its stand-alone ability.

I am well aware of the issues surrounding divebomb. The way it was handled convinced me that DE never actually looked past the initial post of any feedback threads they may actually have read before the rework.

[Birdframe_Prime]

16 hours ago, FoxFX said:

I do recall the augment, though the damage Divebomb did was seen by players to be less than noticeable. Which is part of the reason players wanted Divebomb to merge with Tailwind.

Dive Bomb's damage was always meant to be negligible, it was supposed to be an 'engage' and even 'sustain' move where you jumped into combat, knocking down enemies and then attacking them, or at any time being able to just hop-tap to continue that combat with a radial knock-down.

With that as the base for it, Dive Bomb had a lot of potential, where you could add in mechanics, like something easy to understand, but derivative, like a mini-Stomp effect to suspend enemies in the air for a length of time based on your height of casting. There were ideas for giving it a grounded element, like an... wait for it... air burst, that would radially knock down enemies with an animation-based hop and slam, so that you didn't have to be in the air to cast it. There were ideas for stacking damage based on time above ground, ideas for damage that scaled better so it multiplied the multiplier as well as the damage (effectively making height scaling possible to hit for silly amounts, like a full-height Tailwind on the Plains could have hit for millions, or from the top of the tallest tiles, like the Corpus Hangar, hitting for the hundreds of thousands...)

But... all the potential Tailwind had for actual expansion has kind of just been lost.

99% of the hundreds of threads I read through on the topic didn't use the damage of Dive Bomb as their base either, the largest and most widely believed falsehood was that Dive Bomb and Tailwind were 'the same thing anyway'.

People believed that having 1 to go up and 2 to come down was the only use, or potential use, of the abilities, and so wanted to condense the cast and get a new ability. They didn't even see all the discussion saying 'aim-differentiated casting will only cause people frustration when they want to cast one, but get the other'. We called it, we said it, and nobody believed us until it actually happened.

One of the most in-depth threads I wrote, back in the day, actually reasoned that because it was Tailwind that couldn't really be improved on, we should make Tailwind Zephyr's second passive, move Dive Bomb to her 1, and then introduce the new ability on 2.

So, you would lose the modding function of Tailwind entirely in return for being able to cast a massive mobile dash ability by just holding jump for a second at any time. Coupled with her low-gravity, this would mean Zephyr could stay airborne and mobile forever, and give players that base from which to cast abilities differentiated by being in the air or on the ground.

Dive Bomb in the air would slam down to a marker that would be an aiming reticle for her abilities, and on the ground would blitz forward as a targeted knock-down bomb similar... to how Doomfist's works, if you want a comparison. But it would combo with her other abilities for mechanical effects, like her new 2, which would use an air vacuum (or tiny-nado) to pull enemies away from Zephyr in a line similar to Harrow's 1 to the end of the distance if she was on the ground, or if she was in the air would spawn at the casting location and draw in enemies for a brief duration, and then Dive Bombing it would cause increased damage and other effects. So, on the ground, the pull-away section of the 2 would be the exact matching distance of the range of the ground-based slam that her 1 would deal, and casting 2 and then 1 in the air would actually keep targeting the same point, so it would be easy to set up that combo.

All enabled by the fact that, at any point, instead of a jump she could hold for a second and then Tailwind for no energy cost. The same way that they moved Rift Walk onto Limbo's passive when it used to cost energy too.

Again, though...

Apparently, because the vast majority of new thread starters, who were jumping on the Forums without reading any of the other rework threads, thought that Tailwind and Dive Bomb were the same ability, that really was grounds enough for DE to make them the same ability rather than do something actually innovative with the powers.

[FoxFX]

11 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Dive Bomb's damage was always meant to be negligible, it was supposed to be an 'engage' and even 'sustain' move where you jumped into combat, knocking down enemies and then attacking them, or at any time being able to just hop-tap to continue that combat with a radial knock-down.

With that as the base for it, Dive Bomb had a lot of potential, where you could add in mechanics, like something easy to understand, but derivative, like a mini-Stomp effect to suspend enemies in the air for a length of time based on your height of casting. There were ideas for giving it a grounded element, like an... wait for it... air burst, that would radially knock down enemies with an animation-based hop and slam, so that you didn't have to be in the air to cast it. There were ideas for stacking damage based on time above ground, ideas for damage that scaled better so it multiplied the multiplier as well as the damage (effectively making height scaling possible to hit for silly amounts, like a full-height Tailwind on the Plains could have hit for millions, or from the top of the tallest tiles, like the Corpus Hangar, hitting for the hundreds of thousands...)

But... all the potential Tailwind had for actual expansion has kind of just been lost.

99% of the hundreds of threads I read through on the topic didn't use the damage of Dive Bomb as their base either, the largest and most widely believed falsehood was that Dive Bomb and Tailwind were 'the same thing anyway'. 

People believed that having 1 to go up and 2 to come down was the only use, or potential use, of the abilities, and so wanted to condense the cast and get a new ability. They didn't even see all the discussion saying 'aim-differentiated casting will only cause people frustration when they want to cast one, but get the other'. We called it, we said it, and nobody believed us until it actually happened.

One of the most in-depth threads I wrote, back in the day, actually reasoned that because it was Tailwind that couldn't really be improved on, we should make Tailwind Zephyr's second passive, move Dive Bomb to her 1, and then introduce the new ability on 2.

So, you would lose the modding function of Tailwind entirely in return for being able to cast a massive mobile dash ability by just holding jump for a second at any time. Coupled with her low-gravity, this would mean Zephyr could stay airborne and mobile forever, and give players that base from which to cast abilities differentiated by being in the air or on the ground. 

Dive Bomb in the air would slam down to a marker that would be an aiming reticle for her abilities, and on the ground would blitz forward as a targeted knock-down bomb similar... to how Doomfist's works, if you want a comparison. But it would combo with her other abilities for mechanical effects, like her new 2, which would use an air vacuum (or tiny-nado) to pull enemies away from Zephyr in a line similar to Harrow's 1 to the end of the distance if she was on the ground, or if she was in the air would spawn at the casting location and draw in enemies for a brief duration, and then Dive Bombing it would cause increased damage and other effects. So, on the ground, the pull-away section of the 2 would be the exact matching distance of the range of the ground-based slam that her 1 would deal, and casting 2 and then 1 in the air would actually keep targeting the same point, so it would be easy to set up that combo.

All enabled by the fact that, at any point, instead of a jump she could hold for a second and then Tailwind for no energy cost. The same way that they moved Rift Walk onto Limbo's passive when it used to cost energy too.

Again, though...

Apparently, because the vast majority of new thread starters, who were jumping on the Forums without reading any of the other rework threads, thought that Tailwind and Dive Bomb were the same ability, that really was grounds enough for DE to make them the same ability rather than do something actually innovative with the powers. 

If only Divebomb was something a little like this:

 

Working on the next feedback review on Turbulence and the Synergy I was suggesting for Turbulence and Tailwind.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

6 hours ago, FoxFX said:

If only Divebomb was something a little like this:

 

Working on the next feedback review on Turbulence and the Synergy I was suggesting for Turbulence and Tailwind.

Bruh..what people are trying to explain is that none of these rework suggestions are new or original ideas. This discussion has been beaten to death and a quick search will show many of the same names suggesting the same things over and over. Including this infamous gif.

Zephyr isn't dysfunctional because of a lack of ideas but because of a lack of willingness to put the thought and effort into how Zephyr is currently played and how her abilities play into the structure of the game.

DE chose to ignore feedback. Their rework had minimal impact on the problems Zephyr has with her kit and just feels slapped together and rushed. Even when players provided feedback for the "rework", that was also mostly ignored. You can literally watch members of DE play Zephyr, fly into the wall and then act as if that's fine being planked for a duration. 

So I implore you to do a bit of searching and see for yourself all of the wonderful ideas proposed on behalf of Zephyr, and how none of them came to fruition.

[Caelward]

Unfortunately for us @Renovakunumaru , I've learned that searching for previous rework threads in the archive is difficult. Frustratingly so. Especially since archived posts don't show up in regular search. I usually have to tap google to find anything of substance. I suspect DE didn't bother checking their archives for this reason, another theory for just why things went the way they did.

Anyways, I was able to find a bunch of the better threads, although part of that is me having previous experience with actual good threads.

For anyone curious with some of the better discussion:

Spoiler

A big rework from Renovaru himself. I still love the idea of a semi-passive hover: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/696398-fun-zephyr-rework-w-pictures/

Gaelic-Flame had some interesting ideas for Divebomb and Tornado: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/593734-zephyr-the-gliding-bird-rework-bugfixes/

Thaylien has written enough about Zephyr to compile a book: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/758324-zephyr-should-be-good-a-fix-thread-edit-7th-september/

Fortunately not all at once though, Thaylien again with a different angle: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/792257-lets-break-zephyr-rework-with-intent-to-op/

These were a few of the core conversations, but we had plenty of other talks pop up since Zephyr was a constant topic for reworks. Almost as if DE did nothing with her for multiple years beyond very limited bugfixing. I think we've all figured out who the least favorite child was. Even Limbo has had several rounds of attention, but for awhile no one else came close to the sheer neglect. Then finally we get a 'rework'.

Cryssoberryl was quick to realize how he felt: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/918601-zephyrs-rework-is-a-disaster-she-gained-nothing-and-has-lost-more-than-was-promised-please-hear-a-zephyr-main-out/

Renovakunumaru took a bit more time to let things simmer, but I fully agree with the topic:
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/963088-zephyr-never-got-a-rework/?tab=comments#comment-9818326

 

 

Edited August 4, 2018 by Caelward