Limbo Rework concept

[Lior55]

This Rework is centered around Rift Surge. It is to target the clunky nature of Cataclysm and Rift Surge as well as buff/rework both.

1. Banish - Enemies that die from Rift Surge while in Banish give 5 energy to nearby allies.

2. Stasis - It's fine.

3. Rift Surge - Rift Surge no longer spreads. When activated, enemies begin to take rapid damage over time as he is rending them on a molecular level. That unstable matter from the enemies empowers the rift itself. There is a visual queue showing that the rift is becoming denser. (I imagine that the contrast is a bit stronger and it spins faster) Rift surge also increases the rate in which you gain energy while in the rift. The DoT is 3% of their max health every 0.3 seconds. The duration can be changed to compensate for the effect.

 

4. Cataclysm - Now has constant suction to the edge that pulls enemies into it, so that players aren't confused if an enemy is inside or outside of the bubble. This is when enemies touch the bubble; not when they are near it. This is NOT like Vauban's Ult as it is only on the edge and not to the center. Rift Surge empowers Cataclysm. There will be a percentage gauge that builds up over your ult icon. Once it's fully charged, you can detonate it at any time to do damage equal to 5% of the max shield and health per enemy in the bubble. Afterwards you have to build it up again. This will stop people from spamming the ult as you have to build it up.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Lior55

[Aeon94]

I love the idea of giving Rift a DoT effect but it's effectiveness needs to be reduced , 3% of max hp every 0.3 sec is OP.

21 minutes ago, Lior55 said:

Cataclysm - Now has constant suction to the edge that pulls enemies into it

^Anything helps my melee Limbo is appreciated. I love melee-ing Stasis'ed enemies :)

[S0thaSil]

1: allies inside the rift already gain increased energy regeneration , so no , I don't think that ability should be buffed
2: agreed , it's fine
3: have you tried an amprex+max range limbo+ rift surge's augment? you 1 hit everything without having to worry about energy or health
4: This is the only thing I sort of agree with , I like the idea of cataclysm pulling enemies in , a hole in the rift should function as a vacuum , this sounds fun and should make limbo more helpful in cetus bounties as he'll be a better support
But I disagree with all the damage buffs , that seems like an excuse to turn limbo into a brain dead frame that only spams 4 once every 30/50 seconds.

 

[Lior55]

8 minutes ago, S0thaSil said:

But I disagree with all the damage buffs , that seems like an excuse to turn limbo into a brain dead frame that only spams 4 once every 30/50 seconds.

He's already using it every 30/50 seconds. There should be more than one unique way to build/play him.

8 minutes ago, S0thaSil said:

1: allies inside the rift already gain increased energy regeneration , so no , I don't think that ability should be buffed

That's fine. I want people to hate Banish more. That's all that idea was for.

Edit: Also people don't like to stay in the rift so it would allow them to still be benefited.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Lior55

[Kromatia]

I don't feel Limbo needs damage buffs. He is not a DPS frame. He is a support frame. I do agree with allowing Cataclysm to pull enemies standing just outside its boundary into the rift. Not a huge pull, mind you, but enough so that they are inside and can become damaged. Too many times I've seen enemies just on the fringe where they cannot be damaged from outside the bubble and vice versa.

I also like the 15 energy to nearby allies around the afflicted enemy. Perhaps make this equal to an energy orb to make it useful and unaffected by strength mods. That is to say, it is a flat 25 energy and will ALWAYS be a flat 25 energy. On the other hand, I disagree with this ability because now we're stepping on Trin's territory with a huge burst of energy. There is already too much of that going on with Gara/Frost, Nidus/Vauban and Loki/Vauban/Nyx.

[LAD.Y]

5 minutes ago, S0thaSil said:

1: allies inside the rift already gain increased energy regeneration , so no , I don't think that ability should be buffed
2: agreed , it's fine
3: have you tried an amprex+max range limbo+ rift surge's augment? you 1 hit everything without having to worry about energy or health
4: This is the only thing I sort of agree with , I like the idea of cataclysm pulling enemies in , a hole in the rift should function as a vacuum , this sounds fun and should make limbo more helpful in cetus bounties as he'll be a better support
But I disagree with all the damage buffs , that seems like an excuse to turn limbo into a brain dead frame that only spams 4 once every 30/50 seconds.

 

Agreed, Banish need some sort of late game buff in my opinion but this isn't it. 

Also agreed the Cata suction thing...sounds gucci it's annoying with how enemies can ride that line and you're like 'you look like you're in but you're like not' it would stream that down a ton.

1 minute ago, Kromatia said:

I don't feel Limbo needs damage buffs. He is not a DPS frame. He is a support frame. I do agree with allowing Cataclysm to pull enemies standing just outside its boundary into the rift. Not a huge pull, mind you, but enough so that they are inside and can become damaged. Too many times I've seen enemies just on the fringe where they cannot be damaged from outside the bubble and vice versa.

I also like the 15 energy to nearby allies around the afflicted enemy. Perhaps make this equal to an energy orb to make it useful and unaffected by strength mods. That is to say, it is a flat 25 energy and will ALWAYS be a flat 25 energy. On the other hand, I disagree with this ability because now we're stepping on Trin's territory with a huge burst of energy. There is already too much of that going on with Gara/Frost, Nidus/Vauban and Loki/Vauban/Nyx.

 

I agree Limbo's KIT isn't DPS oriented. I wouldn't call him a Support frame either. You can most certainly build him with support in mind with Haven, but Limbo's current kit is CC based. Like a Vauban or Gara or Frost or Nyx or something. He ZONES that's what his base kit does. He doesn't heal like Trin, Oberon, Nidus, etc, it's an added ability with an augment. Now whether you choose to use that CC to play more like a support or augment your own kill potential is up to you but. *Shrugs* Also you'd be kinda stepping on Trin either way. You could Easily replenish an ally to full using 1 banish considering it's a cone ability and you'd be getting that 15-25 increase for each enemy. On top of his passive energy regen. 

 

1 minute ago, Lior55 said:

He's already using it every 30/50 seconds. There should be more than one unique way to build/play him.

That's fine. I want people to hate Banish more. That's all that idea was for.

There already are multiple ways to build play him XD. Haven Support, Rift Surge CC Damage, Assassin banish/stasis, etc.  At the end of the day he still revolves around the rift though.

[Kromatia]

Support doesn't automatically = healing. Support is anything that helps support the team and keep heat off the healers/DPS and relieve the tanks so they can heal/revive fallen comrades. I consider CC support, which is why I lumped Limbo into the support category.

[S0thaSil]

16 minutes ago, Kromatia said:

I don't feel Limbo needs damage buffs. He is not a DPS frame. He is a support frame.

This^
 

 

16 minutes ago, Kromatia said:

On the other hand, I disagree with this ability because now we're stepping on Trin's territory with a huge burst of energy. There is already too much of that going on with Gara/Frost, Nidus/Vauban and Loki/Vauban/Nyx.

Also this^
limbo is a special warframe , he's his own kind of support , if his energy replenishing ability gets buffed even further he'll wipe trinity off the face of this game.
 

 

18 minutes ago, Lior55 said:

That's fine. I want people to hate Banish more. That's all that idea was for.

Edit: Also people don't like to stay in the rift so it would allow them to still be benefited.

people don't like to stay in the rift in certain missions  (for example extermination or capture)
also people won't stay in the rift if you don't know how to play limbo , unlike other support frames , if a limbo make's a mistake it's tragic and all fingers get pointed at him.
I'll list some scenarios in which banish is extremely helpful and players would love you for it if they even notice you did anything:

• Banishing the drone in bounties or the defense target in sorties  so that they're immune to all damage -> your squad  might not realize you've done anythin , but as a limbo , you take pride in knowing that you've helped and you don't care if your support goes unnoticed ❤️
• Banishing  allies during radiation hazard sorties so that they easily run through the map
• Banishing Loki in spy missions to make his life a little easier
• Banishing and freezing enemies in spy missions to prevent them from triggering the alarms -> imo Limbo is best spy frame , ever since I learned how to play him I haven't failed a single spy sortie.
• banishing a squad member with low health to prevent him from bleeding
• Using banish on corpus cameras to instantly break them 
• Banishing your friend who recently joined warframe and wants a carry in high level missions ,and the list goes on.

Edited August 6, 2018 by S0thaSil

[Lior55]

4 minutes ago, Kromatia said:

I don't feel Limbo needs damage buffs. He is not a DPS frame. He is a support frame. I do agree with allowing Cataclysm to pull enemies standing just outside its boundary into the rift. Not a huge pull, mind you, but enough so that they are inside and can become damaged. Too many times I've seen enemies just on the fringe where they cannot be damaged from outside the bubble and vice versa.

I also like the 15 energy to nearby allies around the afflicted enemy. Perhaps make this equal to an energy orb to make it useful and unaffected by strength mods. That is to say, it is a flat 25 energy and will ALWAYS be a flat 25 energy. On the other hand, I disagree with this ability because now we're stepping on Trin's territory with a huge burst of energy. There is already too much of that going on with Gara/Frost, Nidus/Vauban and Loki/Vauban/Nyx.

1. Most people don't like being supported by Limbo because of he's clunky for teammates and even himself.

2. It's not stepping on Trinity because 15 energy isn't a lot in comparison.

3. I specified that it's not like Vauban and that the suction is only for the edge of the bubble.

4. I.. don't know what Nyx and Loki have to do with anything.

[Kromatia]

Just now, Lior55 said:

1. Most people don't like being supported by Limbo because of he's clunky for teammates and even himself.

2. It's not stepping on Trinity because 15 energy isn't a lot in comparison.

3. I specified that it's not like Vauban and that the suction is only for the edge of the bubble.

4. I.. don't know what Nyx and Loki have to do with anything.

1. I don't mind it in certain situations.

2. 15 energy PER ENEMY killed in the rift can potentially restore a warframe's energy instantly. Why play Trin when Banish keeps you from dying and Limbo's room nuke + natural energy regen fills your energy isntantly?

3. Duh. I agree that should happen. It's literally the fourth sentence in my reply.

4. Nyx and Loki came into it as an example of how too many frames are falling into irrelevancy due to newer frames that fill similar roles. Loki's Irradiating Disarm completely outclasses Nyx's Chaos. Vauban's Bastille also outclasses Nyx's CC. Nidus's Larva is better than Vauban's Vortex...etc. etc. We don't need ANOTHER frame outclassing the main energy regen support frame into irrelevancy.

[Lior55]

It's fine. Everyone will have their own disposition with how he should be changed. This is just my idea for fun. He had a similar damage output before but they changed it because of the spamming occuring, so it's not an outlandish idea for an Ult called "Cataclysm" to do some actual damage but not instantly.

[Zavenosk]

1. No.  Absolutely not.

2. Should be replaced because it's too powerful

3. Should be replaced because it's useless.  No offense to Rift Torrent users or people who use it for banishing, but if Banish could pull enemies into the rift while within the rift (which it used to, something i'd happily trade Stasis for to return to his kit), Rift Surge would be flat out useless. 

4. Sure, enemies that rush into a cataclysm after it's creation are always a problem, this would help mitigate that.

Also, no mention of Augments? Limbo has Rift Torrent, but that does not forgive the fact that Rift Torrent's base skill is only useful for Rift Torrent, or that his other Augments are useless. 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Zavenosk

[-.SP.-G43riel]

1 hour ago, Lior55 said:

4. Cataclysm - Now has constant suction to the edge that pulls enemies into it, so that players aren't confused if an enemy is inside or outside of the bubble. This is when enemies touch the bubble; not when they are near it. 

only this, everything else is not needed

[Insizer]

tbh ive been thinking about having Rift Surge provide a DoT for a while now.  But while your synergy between Cataclysm and Rift Surge is nice, it is addressing a problem that no longer exists.  I haven't seen any Limbos spamming their ults since the Cataclysm damage nerf.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

People who think Limbo isn't DPS has never used a Rift Torrent build.

 

He's pretty DPS especially in Sanctuary Onslaught. You can get up to 5000% weapon damage because of how many enemies there are and depending on what type of META weapons you're using, he really nukes rooms.

Rift Surge isn't perfect by any means, though. I don't like how the surge effect can hop to an enemy outside the rift when a surged enemy dies in the rift. I'd just prefer the radial banish proc upon either death of the enemy or getting kicked out of the rift.

Additionally, I wouldn't mind having all player that are in the rift benefit from Limbo's Rift Torrent weapon damage bonus.

ALso, here's another use for Rift Surge that people don't know much about.

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by (PS4)mahoshonenfox

[Lior55]

I agree. He can easily be DPS. Why do so many of you want to throw him into CC only or "Support"?

Titania has DPS, Buffs, and CC. What box does she fit in?

Octavia has DPS, Buffs, and gives energy. Is she just a support frame?

Mag has DPS, shield regen, and CC. Is she just CC or support?

Ivara has stealth, DPS, CC, and can support with stealth bubbles. Is she just a stealth frame?

Mesa has DPS, a tank ability, and a decent CC ability. Is she "just DPS"? No.

Stop boxing Limbo into these ridiculous constraints. The fact that they gave him big damage on his ult once shows that he has potential to be a more diverse and unique frame. Especially as a caster frame.

Those of you complaining that giving Banished enemies a 15 energy burst when killed by Rift Surge need to see how it's not that big of a deal. DE could easily cap the number of enemies, or make it 5 energy per person. The rift doesn't give you enough energy over time to spam abilities as you see Limbos using Zenurik like everyone else. It won't "wipe trinity off the face of this game" as the idea is to make Banish a more likable ability to random squad mates and it won't compare to EV Trinity ever.

[S0thaSil]

2 hours ago, Lior55 said:

The fact that they gave him big damage on his ult once shows that he has potential to be a more diverse and unique frame. Especially as a caster frame.

The thing is , Limbo is is already that
he is an incredibly diverse frame, there's no need for extra damage buffs or extra energy regeneration , Idk why you'd want that but 5 energy per kill is still insane.
I have frames of both worlds , during ESO I usually ask for a limbo to accompany my volt so that he cast his cata in the middle of the map while I spam my 4 , that+my zenurik tree+my synoid gammacor keeps me at full energy the entire mission, my volt is a really energy hungry frame so that should say a lot .
if I don't feel like playing volt , my limbo with the rift surge augment can solo through anything. Lmao I started carrying people through sorties thanks to limbo.

The only thing that bothers me about his abilities is that they don't work on capture or assassination targets , which is probably a bug.

Edited August 6, 2018 by S0thaSil

[mactrent]

1. I'm not sure if this is only for allies in the Rift, but if so, that's more of an incentive for players to stay in the Rift for normal gameplay.  Currently if you're spamming abilities, the base Rift regen isn't enough, so you may as well use Zenurik and skip the Rift.  If you need protection for most frames on the star-chart, you're just doing it wrong, and if you don't being Banished without warning is just a plain annoyance.  This suggestion feels pretty good, and might actually make people happy to see Limbo on anything but a mobile defense, rescue, or Corpus spy.

2. Largely agreed.  Back when it froze allied bullets, I always thought Stasis should be a toggle ability with a ramping cost, to incentivize Limbo to un- and re-cast to get along with his teammates, rather than trying to squeeze every bit of efficiency from his increased duration.  That suggestion no longer really fits, but it still rattles in my brain some.  😉

3. Removing the banish potential from Rift Surge sure does reduce the clunkiness of his kit, and for the low-low cost of one ability most Limbos just don't use around other people in practice.  While I love Rift Surge for solo (aside from some issues with predictability), I'd be glad to kiss it goodbye for a skill that doesn't actively work against my teammates.

4. I'm not sure just how different the damage numbers come out in practice, but Cataclysm as-is already has a build-up mechanic to prevent spamming.  Having that "edge pull" feature would be awesome, but I'm afraid it'd be one more part of Limbo's kit that's largely set & forget - assuming his 3+4 (with or without augments) can automatically and surely destroy everything in Cataclysm's starting range within a fixed period of time, that's not only powerful but script-able, which is something the devs try really hard to avoid.  I'd love to offer armor scaling of enemies as a reason to keep this as suggested, but with Corrosive Projection available, that argument hasn't flown well in the past.

Thank you very much for your time and attention to the frame we all love.  Not much of any of our suggestions is likely to be implemented, but the more ideas and support, the better.  Here's hoping our gentleframe gets some more tweaks like this.

Edited August 6, 2018 by mactrent