Inaros misconception

[(XBOX)Ubern00ber88]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Mahd2_7 said:

Look here I'm not saying Inaros in a good tank per say put he isn't a good Face or Face up tank as he just isn't able to take the damage at extremely high levels when compared to at face value against Nidus. Inaros is more of a healing tank or cc tank but in way is he a face tank as he can't take the hits at the high levels. Unoe what forget the level 300 I'm now talking level 800 +Nidus was build to scale the stronger the enemies the stronger he gets the 90% damage reduction he gets is constant no matter the level whilst with Inaros the armour is a value which dosent change as enemies scale up and as enemies get stronger the armour may sray constant but gets weaker and weaker until it just becomes redundant at one point 

And yet Inaros can murk enemies at over 1k+. How may you ask? Cover lethality (and if you are worth your sand/salt life strike on it too).  

You also are mistaken on the mechanics of Nidus. His powers DO NOT SCALE WITH ENEMiES his 1 and 4 scales with his mutation stacks (those things you need just to get that coveted 90% damage reduction)

Another thing you are very insistent on is that "armor gets weaker and weaker until its redundant" which is inherently not true as it also plays off of that massive health pool he gets as well as being able to be converted into an AOE on the fly that can replenish itself without energy

[(PSN)Mahd2_7]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Ubern00ber88 said:

Let me throw some numbers at you to debunk your "high-level gameplay statement". Note these are without taking auras into effect on any of them but the numbers would still be similar.

Let's start with Valkyr Prime. Modded armor with 3 mods 2.825, a damage reduction of roughly 90.532% of incoming damage before powers. Health modded out with 3 comes to 1,450. That means her EHP is roughly15,314

Next, we will use your star Nidus. Same setup armor is 1,721.25, a damage reduction of 85.157%, Health is 2175 and an EHP 14,653. Giving him the benefit of the doubt of reaching at least 70% with his link that's 24,910

Now finally Inaros. Granted this assumes you throw scarab armor on at the start for the armor calc but...you are going to...there is no reason not to. Armor is 1530, a damage reduction of 83.606%. His health is 8,525 and his EHP is... 52,000

This is before taking arcanes into effect mind you.

Okay first of all your flawed way of thinking is shown as the maths can't be correct as Nidus damage reduction/redirection is 90% of incoming damage meaning that it isn't a flat number showing that first of all Nidus is a face tank. Secondly Inaros armour gives one value which is constant throughout the mission meaning that at higher level that armour diminishes in value as the enemies get progressively harder 

[(XBOX)Ubern00ber88]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Mahd2_7 said:

Okay first of all your flawed way of thinking is shown as the maths can't be correct as Nidus damage reduction/redirection is 90% of incoming damage meaning that it isn't a flat number showing that first of all Nidus is a face tank. Secondly Inaros armour gives one value which is constant throughout the mission meaning that at higher level that armour diminishes in value as the enemies get progressively harder 

I've already addressed the Nidus oversight as well as your false insistence that armor devalues at higher levels on Inaros

 

[(PSN)Mahd2_7]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Ubern00ber88 said:

And yet Inaros can murk enemies at over 1k+. How may you ask? Cover lethality (and if you are worth your sand/salt life strike on it too).  

You also are mistaken on the mechanics of Nidus. His powers DO NOT SCALE WITH ENEMiES his 1 and 4 scales with his mutation stacks (those things you need just to get that coveted 90% damage reduction)

Another thing you are very insistent on is that "armor gets weaker and weaker until its redundant" which is inherently not true as it also plays off of that massive health pool he gets as well as being able to be converted into an AOE on the fly that can replenish itself without energy

Nidus does indeed scale the higher the level the enemies the stronger he is as his parasitic link which gives 90% dmg reduction to all INCOMING damage meaning that he only receives 10% of the dmg that could have been dealt to him. Yes you are correct his 1 does scale of his mutation stacks but how is he incredibly strong please may I ask because of his scaling..

You're joking right the armour is one flat value that has no scaling at all meaning that as the mission gets harder and the enemies become harder the armour does indeed become less and less apparent. In warframe having alot of health dosent mean much as the enemy scaling is so ridiculous it dosent take into account any health armour shields etc.

[torint_man]

16 minutes ago, wiinston17 said:

Try out ice chroma with 254 strength and 212 duration. cast vex armor followed by ice ward once Fury has been maxed out, then we can talk

350*(1+1.5*2.54+3.5*2.54) = 4800 armor = 17 EHP multiplier

740*17 = 12580 EHP

Fire chroma: 350*(1+3.5*2.54) = 3500 = 12.666 EHP multiplier

740 + 100*(2*2.54) = 1250 health, 1250*12.666 = 15800 EHP

Fire chroma is objectively better than ice chroma.

Your claim that Chroma is a great tank to the point of implying it's better than inaros (that's what this thread is about, Inaros being a worse tank than everybody else) is objectively false, and your evidence to that implication is worse than the examples I provided. You made a worse case for chroma than I did.

Don't get me wrong chroma is a great face tank, but to imply he's unique in that regard is objectively false.

Edited August 15, 2018 by torint_man

[(PSN)Mahd2_7]

12 minutes ago, torint_man said:

Because you are attempting to say that Inaros cannot be considered a "face up tank" due to him dying to enemies that deal several times the damage of sortie 3 enemies. Of course he'll die to those enemies. No "face up tank" can survive those enemies, except for nidus because mass CC and 6 get out of jail free cards, and rhino if you use a health conversion build. 

"Oh no, he isn't literally fuggin invincible, that means you can't call him a tank". That is how you are coming off right now. He is a face up tank, just not one that has literal invincibility (nidus) or exponential survivability (nidus and health conversion rhino). To call his perception of tankiness a "misconception" is objectively false. 90% of players don't give a ship about level 300 survival, so saying they aren't allowed to call Inaros a tank because of gameplay they don't even participate in is asinine. 

I'm not calling him a bad tank just a face tank isn't what he is. Inaros is more of a CC or healing tank more so than a  face tank because of his move set that let him cc and heal himselves which is his speciality 

[Katinka]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Mahd2_7 said:

Nidus damage reduction/redirection is 90% of incoming damage meaning that it isn't a flat number

Yes it is, you take 10% of the damage therefore it takes 10x the damage to kill you.  Your effective health is your actual health x10, no matter what the enemy level, no matter what he damage dealt is.  If you have 90% damage reduction, they have to do 10x as much damage.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Mahd2_7 said:

Inaros armour gives one value which is constant throughout the mission meaning that at higher level that armour diminishes in value as the enemies get progressively harder

No, armour gives damage reduction, increasing the damage needed to kill you by a constant multiplier.  It gives a percentage reduction to all incoming damage at all levels.  2700 armour would give you a 90% damage reduction, for example.

 

Armour is a type of percentage based damage reduction.  To say armour drops off over time is exactly the same as saying any other percentage based damage reduction drops off.  Eventually you'll push the enemy level so high that even 99.999% damage reduction wont be enough, when they do 100,000x your health as damage.

[(PSN)Mahd2_7]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)Ubern00ber88 said:

I've already addressed the Nidus oversight as well as your false insistence that armor devalues at higher levels on Inaros

 

Armour is a flat number/value which can't be increased. Correct?? So as the enemies become stronger and have stronger attacks then what does that mean? That armour will be broken through quicker.

[torint_man]

Just now, (PS4)Mahd2_7 said:

I'm not calling him a bad tank just a face tank isn't what he is. Inaros is more of a CC or healing tank more so than a  face tank because of his move set that let him cc and heal himselves which is his speciality 

In the context of sortie 3, which is the highest this game obligates you to go, Inaros is absolutely 100% a face tank. In the context of hyper endurance, he isn't quite all that. Absolutely. But to claim that a niche part of this game speaks for the entirety of a frame is not a good claim to make. 90% of players don't bother with hyper endurance, and as such their use of Inaros enables face tanking. To try to walk up to them and say "no that's wrong because he isn't all that in a gameplay context you never participate in and are never obligated or rewarded to do so", is asinine.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Mahd2_7 said:

Armour is a flat number/value which can't be increased. Correct?? So as the enemies become stronger and have stronger attacks then what does that mean? That armour will be broken through quicker.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

Armor is a multiplicative damage reduction.

[(XBOX)Ubern00ber88]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Mahd2_7 said:

Nidus does indeed scale the higher the level the enemies the stronger he is as his parasitic link which gives 90% dmg reduction to all INCOMING damage meaning that he only receives 10% of the dmg that could have been dealt to him. Yes you are correct his 1 does scale of his mutation stacks but how is he incredibly strong please may I ask because of his scaling..

You're joking right the armour is one flat value that has no scaling at all meaning that as the mission gets harder and the enemies become harder the armour does indeed become less and less apparent. In warframe having alot of health dosent mean much as the enemy scaling is so ridiculous it dosent take into account any health armour shields etc.

Yeah, those values you listed...are static, they do not change and they do not alter his power strength IN ANY WAY. If anything it means your linked target may die faster which results in your damage reduction not being there and at high levels every second is fatal.  As for how is he incredibly strong? I explained that already...mutation stacks. that's where the power scaling comes from. Link is only useful for survivability and if you have a friend THEN you can boost your power (He was a wonder to have on Eidolon hunts pre Chroma fix)

No, I'm not joking but explaining EHP is a lengthy process I don't feel like getting in to right now. 

Edited August 16, 2018 by (XB1)Ubern00ber88
cleming word missong

[(PSN)LubzinNJ]

Can we all make a pact to end this topic? Stop replying to him. He's a Nidus fanboi who won't accept facts. They've been given in so many forms and he keeps ignoring them or just flat refuting numbers.

Mods please close this thread. Only toxicity can come from this kind of poster.

[(XBOX)Ubern00ber88]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Mahd2_7 said:

Armour is a flat number/value which can't be increased. Correct?? So as the enemies become stronger and have stronger attacks then what does that mean? That armour will be broken through quicker.

Armor is a flat number that provides A PERCENTAGE DAMAGE REDUCTION. PERCENTS SCALE. Your basically equating armor like Iron Skin or some S#&$.

[(PSN)Mahd2_7]

5 minutes ago, torint_man said:

In the context of sortie 3, which is the highest this game obligates you to go, Inaros is absolutely 100% a face tank. In the context of hyper endurance, he isn't quite all that. Absolutely. But to claim that a niche part of this game speaks for the entirety of a frame is not a good claim to make. 90% of players don't bother with hyper endurance, and as such their use of Inaros enables face tanking. To try to walk up to them and say "no that's wrong because he isn't all that in a gameplay context you never participate in and are never obligated or rewarded to do so", is asinine.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

Armor is a multiplicative damage reduction.

Obviously at sortie 3 he is a tank I said to a "certain level"  he just loses that face tank title because that's not what he is he's a CC or healing frame. I'm not saying that he can't be a face tank but at the high levels I'm talking about he just isn't 

Oh and with the armour I've seen it and yh that's a mistake on my behalf 

[Madway7]

1 hour ago, wiinston17 said:

Chroma begs to differ

Nice joke

[(PSN)Mahd2_7]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

Can we all make a pact to end this topic? Stop replying to him. He's a Nidus fanboi who won't accept facts. They've been given in so many forms and he keeps ignoring them or just flat refuting numbers.

Mods please close this thread. Only toxicity can come from this kind of poster.

So we're not allowed to debate an opinion is that so?? As I've said this is for the extremely high level gameplay not the sorties or a 1 to2 hr survival so my points would seem counterintuitive at lower levels. But there is no toxicity from my behalf I can assure you that 

[(PSN)Mahd2_7]

22 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Yes it is, you take 10% of the damage therefore it takes 10x the damage to kill you.  Your effective health is your actual health x10, no matter what the enemy level, no matter what he damage dealt is.  If you have 90% damage reduction, they have to do 10x as much damage.

No, armour gives damage reduction, increasing the damage needed to kill you by a constant multiplier.  It gives a percentage reduction to all incoming damage at all levels.  2700 armour would give you a 90% damage reduction, for example.

 

Armour is a type of percentage based damage reduction.  To say armour drops off over time is exactly the same as saying any other percentage based damage reduction drops off.  Eventually you'll push the enemy level so high that even 99.999% damage reduction wont be enough, when they do 100,000x your health as damage.

Okay even if armour is based on dmg reduction that means it makes Nidus even more tankier as the armour + his link ability will stack meaning altogether a greater dmg reduction overall 

[torint_man]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Mahd2_7 said:

Obviously at sortie 3 he is a tank I said to a "certain level"  he just loses that face tank title because that's not what he is he's a CC or healing frame. I'm not saying that he can't be a face tank but at the high levels I'm talking about he just isn't 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that's what you've been attempting to claim the whole time. But lets look at the original post

There's a common misconception going around that Inaros is a face up tank I think that's because of his huge health pool and scarab armour but it isn't true Inaros can't be classed as a face up tank as believe it or not

You start off with the claim that Inaros is not a face tank. You come off as very unambiguously saying this applies to Inaros in general.

in survivals, where his niche is, he will get killed very quickly at certain levels. Inaros is more of a CC frame as he has no damage reduction abilities and no armour dosent count because at a certain point it just becomes redundant. Nidus however is a face up tank due to his dage reduction abililty he can take and soak up damage. Having a huge health pool and an ability that gives you armour dosent make you a face up tank so let's clear the air on that one

You continue on, while not explicitly clarifying that this only ever applies to hyper endurance. The "in survivals, where his niche is" statement implies that Inaros is not useful outside of that context, and that other contexts are irrelevant. As such people interpreted your OP to be "Inaros is not a face tank under any circumstances", me included. As such, people were attacking the claim they thought you made, and you never clarified what your claim actually was. As such, we get this back and forth cluster fug of a forum thread.

[(PSN)Mahd2_7]

2 minutes ago, torint_man said:

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that's what you've been attempting to claim the whole time. But lets look at the original post

You start off with the claim that Inaros is not a face tank. You come off as very unambiguously saying this applies to Inaros in general.

You continue on, while not explicitly clarifying that this only ever applies to hyper endurance. The "in survivals, where his niche is" statement implies that Inaros is not useful outside of that context, and that other contexts are irrelevant. As such people interpreted your OP to be "Inaros is not a face tank under any circumstances", me included. As such, people were attacking the claim they thought you made, and you never clarified what your claim actually was. As such, we get this back and forth cluster fug of a forum thread.

Maybe i wasn't as clear as I could be in that 😅😅 but I did clear the air 1 or 2 times to be fair 

[Talinthis]

12 hours ago, (PS4)drpunk-yo said:

Heavily armoured - Check.

Carries guns - Check.

Articulated tracks - Oh.

There are no tanks in Warframe 🙂 

metal gear is considered a tank, albeit a bipedal one 😄

[(PSN)LubzinNJ]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)Mahd2_7 said:

So we're not allowed to debate an opinion is that so?? As I've said this is for the extremely high level gameplay not the sorties or a 1 to2 hr survival so my points would seem counterintuitive at lower levels. But there is no toxicity from my behalf I can assure you that 

If you're doing a 2 hour mission trying to find a frame that can survive that kind of continuous environment the only reason you're doing so is to punish yourself. Which frankly makes sense since this entire topic has been a lesson in masochism.

Give it up dude Inaros is a tank. Whatever definition you chose it is a tank. Your definition of a tank is for masochists and why you've decided this is your hill to die on makes no sense.

[(PSN)Chel-El]

throwing in asinine/pedantic does not add any cred to your opinions whatsoever. that’s just childish name calling. 

and yes, the game encouraged us to go to Mot to farm the latest relics. so sortie 3 is not the end all for us, isn’t it? 

[(PSN)Mahd2_7]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

If you're doing a 2 hour mission trying to find a frame that can survive that kind of continuous environment the only reason you're doing so is to punish yourself. Which frankly makes sense since this entire topic has been a lesson in masochism.

Give it up dude Inaros is a tank. Whatever definition you chose it is a tank. Your definition of a tank is for masochists and why you've decided this is your hill to die on makes no sense.

If you think Inaros is a face tank then so it be but just know that at extremely high levels your face tank Inaros will become worse and worse. I'm not saying he's not a tank I'm saying he's not a certain type of tank at really high levels because that's just not him 

Not the only one saying it here's a youtuber called Lifeofrio whom is an endgame player and knows what he's talking about 

https://youtu.be/hbYHWQaX_VQ

 

[(PSN)Mahd2_7]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Chel-El said:

throwing in asinine/pedantic does not add any cred to your opinions whatsoever. that’s just childish name calling. 

and yes, the game encouraged us to go to Mot to farm the latest relics. so sortie 3 is not the end all for us, isn’t it? 

So you can go to rotation c and leave. 20 mins is hardly challenging 

[Omega-Shadowblade]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Mahd2_7 said:

So you can go to rotation c and leave. 20 mins is hardly challenging 

yeah, mot just makes it more difficult with the effect.

[(PSN)Chel-El]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Mahd2_7 said:

So you can go to rotation c and leave. 20 mins is hardly challenging 

Hardly challenging? When I’m a Mag reviving Rhinos and Nidus in Mot I have to disagree 

Someone is trying to move the goal post, by saying sortie 3 is where majority of us needs to “level” our equipment

That is not the case because of that latest relic farm where I had to go to the Mot and came to the same conclusion as you with Inaros