Elite Onslaught is Pointless Boredom Because of Saryn

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

1 hour ago, miomima said:

its not even a nerf, saryn still gona be able to do what she do now, just making this more expensive with arcane energize and energy pads, that all.

It is a nerf the same way Revenant's Danse Macabre got nerfed

[Ecliptix]

This game has had so many Meta builds knock one down and another appears. Some frames just dominate some modes. I dont care about the git gud comments. It is something that is in the game you likely wont see a direct nerf. There are a lot of frames that can do massive damage like equinox can clear ESO maps with no real issue. If this type of gameplay angers you this much my advice is to avoid these situations and premake your groups for these maps. Play these frames yourself. Or avoid these situations or the game in general. There has always been a Meta build or a handful of them and nothing has shown there wont always be. I get the frustration but it is just the reality of it. Mirage Simulor was a lot worse than this and will probably never be topped with how over the top it was. it has gotten better but it wont ever be perfect.

[miomima]

3 минуты назад, (PS4)LoisGordils сказал:

It is a nerf the same way Revenant's Danse Macabre got nerfed

Except revenant cant regen energy because its channeling ability, and its mostly a minor tweak since there is too many ways to refill energy. He still can do what he do before.

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by miomima

[Kraythax]

I have read the arguments since I last left and they all revovle around a simple theme. Those defending the imbalance play Saryn. Those opposing it want balance and fun gameplay. Those defending the imbalance say "go solo" which is a nice way of saying "my way or the highway" but yet I play this game not so I can play solo. Another argument is "get some friends and make a team". I am a 47 year old principal software architect with a near 80 hour a week job, i don't have time to make a lot of friends in a video game. There is also the people yelling "grow up" which is another way to say "shut up or I will call you names. Doesn't affect me in the slightest. First of all I'd wager I am older than most, if not all of the people in the thread just by human age probability. 🙂 Second of all I have long since learned to stop caring what random people on the internet think of me, my mother, my wife, my kids or anything else about me. 

So the basic facts are: 

1. The character is massively imbalanced.

2. It makes the game unfun. 

3. As a business making an unfun game is not a good idea. 

4. It is fixable if DE choses to fix it. 

5. I have given DE LOTS of money because i like their product (more than $400 Id bet) but I wont be giving more while the game is unfun. 

As Porky pig said .... That's all Folks. 

[Hellmaker2004]

4 minutes ago, Kraythax said:

1. The character is massively imbalanced.

This is pretty much true for... lets be modest and say 80% of the frames. The major difference is how they are so.

 

6 minutes ago, Kraythax said:

2. It makes the game unfun. 

Unfun for who, you? or are we generalizing?

And once again, this is true for about 80% Of the frames, there are plenty of frames that can do map wide wipes, map wide stun locks.. Saryn happen to be the FOTM for ESO, and thats it.

 

7 minutes ago, Kraythax said:

 3. As a business making an unfun game is not a good idea. 

True, but once again you are generalizing that the game is unfun for everyone because it is unfun for you. My recomendation would be to take a break from the game.
For me at least, the game is on a fun / boring cycle. But this is 99% on me due to overplaying games.

 

10 minutes ago, Kraythax said:

 4. It is fixable if DE choses to fix it. 

Saryn aint more broke than the majority of other Frames in the game and as a wise man once said "If everything is special then nothing is special".
She is the FOTM and that is why you see her a lot, she also appears to be one of the better looking frames, and true end game is fashion frame.

 

12 minutes ago, Kraythax said:

 5. I have given DE LOTS of money because i like their product (more than $400 Id bet) but I wont be giving more while the game is unfun. 

Giving a lot of money does not give you more or less authority nor does it make your voice worth more or less than everyone else.

[Asdryu]

31 minutes ago, Kraythax said:

I would seriously doubt he could explain it. 🙂

Ahaaaa! It's like I didn't do that at the exact previous page! Le funny memes xDDDDDD!

3 hours ago, Asdryu said:

oh really? Mag's polarize got nerfed (ok it was broken but it was for shields only), Ash bladestorm had its changes (that in depth are a nerf) and Ember got its useless for its intended purpose "change".

Who literally cried out loud on the forum for these?
Wanna take Volt without Corrosive Projection? Don't expect to get past zone 8 alone at least. We could've had more choices, but no. We needed onslaught to understand that and make Saryn even better just to spit in the face of all those "changes"

Saryn's changes came with onslaught and they've been made accordingly. How did she came out? A masterpiece.
Onlsaught proposed something that was relatively new to Warframe and people loved it for the time being, but the replay value, as of many things, is low.

You made your points in the last post of your and yeah, that's how things are sadly (?).
It's either they fix Saryn or improve other frames (while possibly throwing at us more complexed units such as a Nox or a Nullifier)... But that has never been the case, ever.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb Hellmaker2004:

This is pretty much true for... lets be modest and say 80% of the frames. The major difference is how they are so.

I wouldn't even dare to disagree there. But i can't concur with the notion of Saryn being in line atm. Tell me one 1-skill in the game which damage potential comes even close to spores rn. And she's got another AOE nuke on top (for only 75 energy, too). She's not even a glass cannon. Really the recently revealed usage chart speaks for itself.

All that being said it's not a secret i'd be all for a energy rework to keep perma-ulting in check in general (but even that would hardly scratch Saryn's specific OP-ness).

Edited September 6, 2018 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[miomima]

9 hours ago, Reifnir said:

-Snip-

Atlas can perma CC too, Titania same, and Valkyr, you just need line of sight for that, but that off topic.

Right now game is beyond broken in terms of balance, since you can make a squad that gona kill ALL ENEMIES on map without even seeing them once, you can even throw away all guns from the game because some frames on that level of absourd power. But instead of fixing it while its stil fixable you suggest to throw MORE CONTENT which gona add MORE BROKEN STUFF, till game gona die because there gona be no way to fix that.

But i agree on special search for party, i`d be glad to play with no saryn\equinox in my team, and OP lovers can make their own only saryn,equinox,trinity world where they dont actualy play the game but trying not to die from boredom

[Doom_Bunny]

16 minutes ago, Kraythax said:

I have read the arguments since I last left and they all revovle around a simple theme. Those defending the imbalance play Saryn. Those opposing it want balance and fun gameplay. Those defending the imbalance say "go solo" which is a nice way of saying "my way or the highway" but yet I play this game not so I can play solo.

21 hours ago, Kraythax said:

Every Saryn player I have met acts selfish and instead of going in solo if they want to solo the map, they go in with a full team of 4, take 90% or more of the damage and you get nothing.

That's hypocrisy. Both sides have people claiming the other should go solo it doesn't make either side a legitimate or not.

16 minutes ago, Kraythax said:

Another argument is "get some friends and make a team". I am a 47 year old principal software architect with a near 80 hour a week job, i don't have time to make a lot of friends in a video game. There is also the people yelling "grow up" which is another way to say "shut up or I will call you names. Doesn't affect me in the slightest. First of all I'd wager I am older than most, if not all of the people in the thread just by human age probability. 🙂 Second of all I have long since learned to stop caring what random people on the internet think of me, my mother, my wife, my kids or anything else about me.

There is only one person who told you to grow up and they didn't show support for either side. Furthermore they were told off by someone supporting the fact that Saryn isn't the only one, something many people are trying to get through to you.

As for your situation try to find an active clan. Warframe has many diverse individuals all with shifting availability. A clan can provide a platform for you to come back to and socialize.

P.S: People will spend time and money to create builds designed to be the most effective for certain game types. Saryn is common because she is coming off a high and spore is easy to build for, you will find them in public and recruit matches.

4 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Really the recently revealed usage chart speaks for itself.

So should we be nerfing Rhino on the index, Volt on teralysts, or Loki in general? This chart speaks for a fraction of time, one in which Saryn was buffed, nerfed, and found a game mode that suits her. According to the chart she is more in line with the other frames now then she was before the ability changes. If we extend the chart forwards we would probably see a decline in usage due to players finishing the ESO (and focus schools) and moving on to new content.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Postal_pat:

If we extend the chart forwards we would probably see a decline in usage due to players finishing the ESO (and focus schools) and moving on to new content.

Well, you might actually be right there, we'll see. But ESO is far from the only game mode in which mass killing effectively is one of the main objectives.

[Kraythax]

No other frame in the game can literally kill the whole map before they can even spawn. If you don't dispute that AND  don't understand that as an imbalance then there is literally no point in discussing the issue further with you. 

[axellex]

3 minutes ago, miomima said:

Atlas can perma CC too, Titania same, and Valkyr, you just need line of sight for that, but that off topic.

Right now game is beyond broken in terms of balance, since you can make a squad that gona kill ALL ENEMIES on map without even seeing them once, you can even throw away all guns from the game because some frames on that level of absourd power. But instead of fixing it while its stil fixable you suggest to throw MORE CONTENT which gona add MORE BROKEN STUFF, till game gona die because there gona be no way to fix that.

But i agree on special search for party, i`d be glad to play with no saryn\equinox in my team, and OP lovers can make their own only saryn,equinox,trinity world where they dont actualy play the game but trying not to die from boredom

I do not think it is fixable they nerfed ember so people stopped using it early as it was breaking the game for new players, I don't see them going and changing every ability that annihilates enemies within seconds or perma CC and I don't see them changing the game so it doesn't require such abilities, the game literally started out as a press 4 to kill everything around you in a radius sometimes 30m sometimes 50m, that has not changed we still get them today and we got another ability as such with revenant. How efficient or inefficient matters not in the grand scheme of things if it's inefficient it won't be used but the design of the ability it's purpose is the same be it mass CC or mass DMG.

The devs made them so and will continue to make them just as before I heavily doubt the community has any say in this. But you just have to laugh at the whole argument they had for nerfing revenent's 4 because it was a "press and forget" ability like so many others but they designed it in the first place how did they not know it was such an ability in the first place is very amusing.

 

 

[miomima]

2 минуты назад, axellex сказал:

I do not think it is fixable they nerfed ember so people stopped using it early as it was breaking the game for new players, I don't see them going and changing every ability that annihilates enemies within seconds or perma CC and I don't see them changing the game so it doesn't require such abilities, the game literally started out as a press 4 to kill everything around you in a radius sometimes 30m sometimes 50m, that has not changed we still get them today and we got another ability as such with revenant. How efficient or inefficient matters not in the grand scheme of things if it's inefficient it won't be used but the design of the ability it's purpose is the same be it mass CC or mass DMG.

The devs made them so and will continue to make them just as before I heavily doubt the community has any say in this. But you just have to laugh at the whole argument they had for nerfing revenent's 4 because it was a "press and forget" ability like so many others but they designed it in the first place how did they not know it was such an ability in the first place is very amusing.

 

 

Well, there is a simple ways that were suggested before: cooldowns\no energy regeneration and energy efficiency (only pasive like 1e\s). But that just a dreams.

Right now almost every frame have at least one ability that is press and forget, so yea...

[coolmate]

sry op , but this suggestion of yours is bad ,

if u want to balance saryn , best is to lower down the damage cap of spores ( probably 1000 damage or lowered  ) while also revert back miasma to its original 15m base range and making it  base 100 energy cost .

this would make her more not too op but not too much of a nerf as well , then again , a nerf is a nerf , will definitely cause some salt.

[Doom_Bunny]

13 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

Well, you might actually be right there, we'll see. But ESO is far from the only game mode in which mass killing effectively is one of the main objectives.

Yeah but those game modes don't have the spawn rate of ESO to create spores damage. ESO just floods one room with enemies the only thing similar would high end defense and some interception maps which would take time to get to, and the 5sec cooldown would be hell for spores damage. Games like survival would require greater range to maintain sacrificing damage so it just stripes armour rather than kills.

17 minutes ago, Kraythax said:

No other frame in the game can literally kill the whole map before they can even spawn. If you don't dispute that AND  don't understand that as an imbalance then there is literally no point in discussing the issue further with you. 

So your going to shut out opinions except for specific sources that agree with you?

Equinox and Volt can kill an entire map in less time than Saryn, people have commented this already. The reason why it's not imbalanced is because spores like other abilities; maim and overload, require the conditions of ESO to give off so much damage in a short amount of time. Almost like it was a game mode built of experienced users with map wiping abilities. Outside of ESO spore is barely used because it's not as effiecent or maintainable, mainly due the nerf that stopped self spreading outside of patient zero. If Saryn has killed the whole map in ESO then it's bad news for her because spores' damage will snap back and require building again.

So like most frames if given the right conditions or the right player/build they can easily outshine others however can still fall short in other game modes. A frame with individual attacks like Valkyr, Excal, or Ash can outpace and outshine Saryn in modes like survival but they lack the cc and support needed for games like ESO.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

While i agree that there are ways around this issue as others have pointed out, saryn as a frame is a mechanical mess. 2.0 spores was all they needed, as long as they removed molt+spore (which btw is still kinda a thing with other synergies except stronger now). They should've focused on the toxin carry mechanic. It was a scaling method that still had flat numbers, AND used her other abilities AND required use of actual gameplay. It was actually perfectly ingeniously balanced, but DE removed it for an undisclosed reason and replaced it with this PREDICTED disaster of game mechanics.

[Peter]

She's good as she is, she's still weak against corpus and infested.

 

 

[Xaxma]

35 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

Almost like it was a game mode built of experienced users with map wiping abilities.

>experienced users
>map-wiping abilities
Pick one.

It doesn't take a veteran to plug Overextended, Stretch, and efficiency on a Saryn. A Saryn "main" and a noob who picked up Saryn 5 minutes ago literally will play the same way to the same effectiveness. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by Xaxma

[Hellmaker2004]

1 minute ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

I wouldn't even dare to disagree there. But i can't concur with the notion of Saryn being in line atm. Tell me one 1-skill in the game which damage potential comes even close to spores rn. And she's got another AOE nuke on top (for only 75 energy, too). She's not even a glass cannon. Really the recently revealed usage chart speaks for itself.

All that being said it's not a secret i'd be all for a energy rework to keep perma-ulting in check (but even that would hardly scratch Saryn's OP-ness tho).

Well first, Saryn is one of the few Offensive frames who scale, and this is not something bad. As before this the meta have been pretty much dominated by CC frames. There needs to be a honorable mention however that have DE scaled back some of the worst contender here, even if they are still here but simply toned down a bit.

 

But for some reason everyone who complain about Saryn always for some reason belive she starts out at her damage cap as soon as she presses number one. And i will assure you that is not the case.

So let me explain how Spore work since the majority that complain belive that a Saryn can press default "1" and magicly everything dies.
For simplicity i will use a rank level 30 frame since i doubt we care that much about builds that are less than on a rank 30 Frame. I will also warn people that it is a huge read so wall of text in the spoiler.

 

Spoiler

 

Spore starts of by dealing 10 damage per spore per target and is cast in a set of 3 on one foe. Spore is maximum limit is 12 spores per target. So it can in theory deal up to 120 damage per second per target before it starts to scale. However. Spore can only be spread by up to a limit of 3 spore per target. So even tough the maximum amount of spore a foe can have is 12, the very likely and realistic scenario is going to be 3.

Now for anyone here 10(30) Corrosive Damage per second is nothing in Warframe, but cleary since it does scale it is gonig to end up dealing more damage than that.
 

The scaling work that it increases the damage of each spore per target infected by 2. It is important to note that it matters not if the target is suffering from one spore, two spore's or a complete set spore. The damage over time is still only increased by 2 per target. It is also important to understand that there is a maximum amount of target it will ever calculate into this as to stop it from going out of control.

 

So to increase the damage from a single 10(30) spore to 50(150) damage per second it would take (50-10) / 2 = 20 seconds.

Now the maximum amount of foes it will acount for is up to 10 foes. Clearly it is not going to increase spore damage by only 2 per second since you are very likely to infect multiple foes..So if we use the above mentioned example it would only take 2 seconds to reach up to (50)150 corrosive damage per second a bit better. But still nothing to even be excited about.

 

How does it all come together?
Well, we all know that we are not going to use a default un-modded Frame, so instead lets use what i am currently using.

Duration  :101%
Efficency :100%
Range     :190%
Strenght  :210%

Build.

This is going to change Spore into (10x2.1) = 21 damage per second per spore as default.
But more importantly it is gonig to change how it scale into (2x2.1) = 4.2 Damage increase per second per target.(And yes the game keep track of the extra uneven number).

But even so that is only a increase of 42 damage per second at maximum amount of foes.
Now it is easy to talk numbers but lets see how it translate to damage.

Spore would in my case be dealing 21(63) - 63(189) - 105(315) - 147(441) and so on, damage per target infected. 

The normal number is per spore, and the number inside the bracket is at three spores. Now i am sure there are plenty of people who have a better build than i do, but i think we can at least agree that 210% Power strenght is not a little amount.

 

Now here is where it will start to become complicated. Spore also have a decay rate. That not only happen when there are no longer anyone infected, but also if you recast it while someone is infected. This is the reason you are very unlike to have the current maximum amount of spores on a lot of foes, and if anything it is something you are rarely going to recast on specific foes you want dead faster.

 

And  i would like to add as a finnal note that everyone keeps brining up that spore can deal up to 100,000 damage and how silly that is. First it would not only require insane spore management to not ever recast but also to never let it fall of from foes and i will show you how silly that is.

At default Power Strenght it would take ((100,000-10) / 2) / X seconds to reach that amount.
Now for everyone here we are going to do more math.

At one foe at default power strenght it would be.
((100,000-10) / 2) / 1 = 49995 seconds = 833.25 minutes = 13.8875 Hours.

At ten foes at default power strenght it would be.
((100,000-10) / 2) / 10 = 4999.5 seconds = 83.325 minutes = 1.38875 Hours.

At ten foes with my 210% Power strenght it would be.
((100,000-21) / 4.2) / 10 = 2380.45238095 seconds = 39.6742063492 minutes.

Of constant spore duration, whitout a single recast.

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

17 minutes ago, Peter said:

She's good as she is, she's still weak against corpus and infested.

 

 

You don't know what you're talking about at all.

She annihilates Corpus and decimates Infested enemies.

[Xaxma]

4 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

-snip-

You don't even need 10% of Saryn's maximum potential spore damage to blenderize every single enemy on the map all the way through the 8 rounds on ESO. 

What?

Make that 39.6742063492 minutes into more like ... 3 minutes, and that's actually what it takes.

By 3 minutes in, you're at round 2 of ESO.

Edited September 7, 2018 by Xaxma

[Sesaline]

5 hours ago, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

I'm asking for a balance pass, for the sake of my teammate's fun. She is extremely (broken) powerful and no "that's how a dmg frame should be" is gonna change that

against trash mobs sure. just like everything else. thing is that she can reach enemies before her allies because of her aoe capabilities. Doesn't dismiss the fact that this game is too much of a cakewalk for teamwork to even be relevant.

[miomima]

i kill 20 level 125 bombers at 600 spore damage with 1 miasma which takes like 20 seconds, and that 100% AS saryn with just range and EE focused on survivability.

Edited September 7, 2018 by miomima

[Kraythax]

9 minutes ago, miomima said:

i kill 20 level 125 bombers at 600 spore damage with 1 miasma which takes like 20 seconds, and that 100% AS saryn with just range and EE focused on survivability.

That pretty much defines stupidly Overpowered. 

[miomima]

1 минуту назад, Kraythax сказал:

That pretty much defines stupidly Overpowered. 

Yep, that from 0 stacks, casting spore 3 times and then shoting 3 times with 3rd ability active. Now imagine endless survival when there always some enemies to spread spores