Opting out of reworks

[This_Machine]

I don't like what happened with Nezha. I've been using him off and on this past week trying to get used to it, but way too much has changed.

I don't like Fire walker having a duration, but it does look a lot better.

I don't like Blazing Chakram losing the healing ability for orbs.

I don't like Warding Halo not blocking all damage.

There's also something funky with Divine Spears. Sometimes it misses enemies or just wont work on them not sure which. This was never a thing that I noticed before.

I'm not saying to change anything back though. I see a lot of people in game using Nezha now with the deluxe skin, and they seem to be enjoying him even though he was more fun before the rework. I on the other hand don't think he's fun anymore, and having so much time spent using him in game its just bumming me out. So maybe there could be some way to just opt out of reworks (no augments) like a skin, helmet, or some kind of arcane like one for each ability. I'll even build/buy a new Nezha if I have to.

[Loza03]

Unlikely. These changes are usually made for a reason. Sometimes a frame is too powerful, sometimes too weak, sometimes it promotes a gameplay style that they don't want.

Giving people the option to opt out defeats the purpose of it. Curious as I am to use Limbo as he was before his changes, I know it's unlikely to happen.

[NightBlitz]

not gonna happen. like never. it'd defeat to purpose of reworks, and create needless extra code

[Ventasis]

Interesting that you prefer old nezha. Only thing I can understand/agree with you on is Blazing Chakrams healing AoE being superior. Otherwise he seems strictly better. I've taken him into long survivals & he's completely unkillable. 

[(PSN)The-AngryMan]

I think you're in the minority. Thanks to the rework, Nezha is a more powerful, more balanced, and more useful frame in the game. He is a more viable alternative to othwe frames now. People seem to be enjoying and using his kit more.

[(PSN)The-AngryMan]

I think you're in the minority. Thanks to the rework, Nezha is a more powerful, more balanced, and more useful frame in the game. He is a more viable alternative to other frames now. People seem to be enjoying and using his kit more.

[Birdframe_Prime]

I'm surprised at how many people have said they prefer Nezha's old healing when it was a small-area burst that you often entirely missed out on if you were a little out of range... where now you get every single enemy dropping a health orb, that every player can pick up, regardless of what range they were.

Per enemy hit, yeah, it's less healing, but because it's a better ability overall, and because it also drops Energy orbs, you can cast it at literally everything. I've spent less time in game with that Chakram on my back than I have with it flying around the map. What surprises me in most cases is that I end up not needing the orbs that drop on anything less than level 50-60 missions (like Plains Bounties), because with the amount of DR I get out of Halo, the amount of CC from Firewalker and Spears and Chakram combined, I'm just not taking the damage or using as much energy as I can actually produce.

I mean, before the change, I barely ever used Chakram, it was my 'don't bother' ability. I would instead spend that energy on another Halo or Spears cast and toggle off my Firewalker so I could drop an energy pad or, later on, use Zenurik. It wasn't worth the healing if I wasn't using a weapon that kept me in range of that burst. Nezha's negation of CC on him meant that I could use him for Sniping a lot, moving from location to location to kite enemies into my Firewalker streams, then mowing them down while they were on fire. Rarely did I ever have to get into Melee range when I didn't want to, so I only used Chakram when I remembered it.

Now Chakram is just a... 'see an enemy, chakram the enemy' if you miss, then teleport to it to confuse the enemy and throw it again. Every enemy should have a little halo on it for both the damage increase it gives and the health and energy orb drops ^^

I've not noticed Spears missing enemies as long as they're in range, and I use it as often as I can because of those multiplying Chakram effects, putting that status and buff to our damage on all of them. 

Between the smoother casting of every ability and the fact that he's as good as Nekros at creating Health for himself... it's actually pretty impressive. I'm playing him for my solo runs where previously I would have picked, say, Oberon. Oberon is still my go-to for team support, and Zephyr is my favourite for everyday play, but Nezha has made my top five list easily now.

Also, if you haven't farmed up Health Conversion, grab that, it's an awesome mod for defense, adding 1350 armour to him almost immediately after a Chakram cast. This means that, with that mod pumping out stacks from every Health orb you pick up, you're so much tankier at base, with over 80% damage reduction just from your armour, and then 90% on top of that from Warding Halo, you're talking about 98% damage reduction overall.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

"More fun Before the rework" 😂 You mean just cast firewalker and warding halo and run around shooting things. Occasionally using divine spears and barely using b.chakram? The minority keeps saying that the "heal aoe is better than health orbs" but you want to know what the majority says? "Nezha has an aoe heal?? " Because the range was so insignificant and small, it literally didn't matter if it was there or not.  

 

Spoiler

 

16 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I'm surprised at how many people have said they prefer Nezha's old healing when it was a small-area burst that you often entirely missed out on if you were a little out of range... where now you get every single enemy dropping a health orb, that every player can pick up, regardless of what range they were.

Per enemy hit, yeah, it's less healing, but because it's a better ability overall, and because it also drops Energy orbs, you can cast it at literally everything. I've spent less time in game with that Chakram on my back than I have with it flying around the map. What surprises me in most cases is that I end up not needing the orbs that drop on anything less than level 50-60 missions (like Plains Bounties), because with the amount of DR I get out of Halo, the amount of CC from Firewalker and Spears and Chakram combined, I'm just not taking the damage or using as much energy as I can actually produce.

I mean, before the change, I barely ever used Chakram, it was my 'don't bother' ability. I would instead spend that energy on another Halo or Spears cast and toggle off my Firewalker so I could drop an energy pad or, later on, use Zenurik. It wasn't worth the healing if I wasn't using a weapon that kept me in range of that burst. Nezha's negation of CC on him meant that I could use him for Sniping a lot, moving from location to location to kite enemies into my Firewalker streams, then mowing them down while they were on fire. Rarely did I ever have to get into Melee range when I didn't want to, so I only used Chakram when I remembered it.

Now Chakram is just a... 'see an enemy, chakram the enemy' if you miss, then teleport to it to confuse the enemy and throw it again. Every enemy should have a little halo on it for both the damage increase it gives and the health and energy orb drops ^^

I've not noticed Spears missing enemies as long as they're in range, and I use it as often as I can because of those multiplying Chakram effects, putting that status and buff to our damage on all of them. 

Between the smoother casting of every ability and the fact that he's as good as Nekros at creating Health for himself... it's actually pretty impressive. I'm playing him for my solo runs where previously I would have picked, say, Oberon. Oberon is still my go-to for team support, and Zephyr is my favourite for everyday play, but Nezha has made my top five list easily now.

Also, if you haven't farmed up Health Conversion, grab that, it's an awesome mod for defense, adding 1350 armour to him almost immediately after a Chakram cast. This means that, with that mod pumping out stacks from every Health orb you pick up, you're so much tankier at base, with over 80% damage reduction just from your armour, and then 90% on top of that from Warding Halo, you're talking about 98% damage reduction overall.

 

 

This guy sums it up pretty well. Nezha is like the only few(?) frames that you can actually say "I use all of his abilities constantly" and not just a few good abilities with a bad one anyone bearly uses. 

[EinheriarJudith]

whats more bizzare is that people think that just because something was changed it means everyone has to like it. with more than 4k hrs in warframe the one thing that has become incredibly boring to me is power spam. more frames are moving towards power spam. the one credit i will give to destiny 2 is that it doesn't rely on powers to make fun gameplay. if he liked old nezha, then whats the problem? that he doesnt like new nezha? thats not a problem.

DE wont create an opt out for reworks. i do wish DE would create a proper mode limiting power spam. onslaught doesnt count because its a mission type and only limits 4th ability. the saryn build i use invalidates enemy difficulty below 150. so what do i do? i dont use saryn anymore. thats what the game is "use the strongest tool to invalidate gameplay"

[felixsylvaris]

Potencially the augments could change the way abillities work.

To some degree stuff like changing abillity duration<-> channel makes more sense than adding effect which could be there from the beginning (so many cases).

However the request for new augment need to be numerous.

It is possible you are one and only who liked old Nezha.

[MickThejaguar]

Nope. Then DE would end up having to balance and bug fix multiple versions of the same frame. That's an unreasonable amount of work.

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

thats what the game is "use the strongest tool to invalidate gameplay"

You know, when you point this out, I think you're approaching it from the wrong angle here. I can understand how you'd take it like this, but think about the game overall;

We grind gear to level it up, Forma it to allow for more powerful mods and things to be put on them, grind up Endo to max out those mods... That's fairly standard, right? But look at the other progressions: In Cetus, you grind a bit of standing to buy the basic Mining Cutter and the first Fishing Spear. As you use those to get resources and can even use the resources to gain standing faster.

As you rank up in the standing, you get access to the better gear and that better gear not only makes it easier to get the resources, it makes it easier to get the more valuable resources. By the time you've got the most accurate Mining cutter, you have smooth tracking, which makes the chance of hitting 4.5/5 or 5/5 accuracy easier, which then makes getting Eidolon gems more likely, you also have the radar which allows you to see spots you might normally have just run past. Once you get to all three Fishing Spears, and have access to the highest tiers of Bait, you can then access fish that give you so much standing that a single trip out to the Plains at night can net you enough spare fish to max your standing out for a week.

The Fishing Spear part of Cetus is incredibly overpowered for gaining Standing, but it's balanced for gaining resources overall because you often need five or six times the amount of fish for blueprints that you would need to donate and gain Standing.

Basically, if you hit MR25 in Warframe and haven't maxed your Focus Trees yet, then jumping into Onslaught with a Saryn is in the top three ways to achieve your daily cap of 375k Focus (with the equal-place second for time and approximate effort being Sleep-quinox or Ivara stealth farming, and the fastest being Banshee Melee stealth farming).

But since Saryn is not as powerful outside of those high-spawn areas like the Kuva Fortress survival or Fissure missions with the increased spawns there, it's a little more balanced overall because she can't gain other resources any faster than a dozen other frames that can do well in those missions too because there's not a reset every 2 minutes to prevent continuity.

tl;dr

The entire game is about grinding up to the specialised gear and using it if you want to reduce your grind. It doesn't invalidate gameplay, it's the reward for doing all the gameplay that came before. For all of the work it took you to get your frame, mods, weapons, Focus, MR from levelling all the different weapons and other frames... as a reward for the content you've already marched through, when you want to get a specific reward, such as Focus, you get the ability to skip merrily through the tulips if you take one of the specific tools that lets you do that.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Thaylien

[EinheriarJudith]

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

The entire game is about grinding up to the specialised gear and using it if you want to reduce your grind. It doesn't invalidate gameplay, it's the reward for doing all the gameplay that came before. For all of the work it took you to get your frame, mods, weapons, Focus, MR from levelling all the different weapons and other frames... as a reward for the content you've already marched through, when you want to get a specific reward, such as Focus, you get the ability to skip merrily through the tulips if you take one of the specific tools that lets you do that.

the grind is not hard in this game. just playing the game will get you the things you want. RNG made sure of that. no matter how fast or slow if you are looking for drops RNG will make sure you keep playing. focus system is experimental right now. it was a mistake for DE to create a mission type that lets you get it faster. also most of the grind can be skipped by using plat. you can buy greater lenses with plat making focus farming a non issue.

when i load a mission, i just want to play. no matter what, i know that by the end of the mission ill get items. what i dont like is being bored while playing. what i mean by being bored is, watching another frame deleting the map with me having nothing to do. this is that "using specialized gear to skip grind". some people like pressing a button to skip grind, me on the other hand, ive done all the grinding i care to do and just want to enjoy the game.

i try not to think of warframe as a hamster running on a wheel simulator. its more than that and should show that it is. one of the reasons you hear people complain about there being no end game. you grind to get powerful gear only to have nothing to do with it at the end.

[Birdframe_Prime]

21 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

one of the reasons you hear people complain about there being no end game.

The other reason being... what even is endgame for Warframe?

It used to be when rewards only dropped at a certain rotation of a certain mission, meaning that being able to hit the most number of those rotations without stopping would get you the most reward for your time. But DE removed that as 'endgame' when it no longer became necessary to play for longer than 20 minutes, 20 waves or 4 rounds of any endless to get rewards.

Sure you can scale up a Fissure as long as you like, but what do you do when the part you were actually looking for appears on the first Rotation? Or the third? Kind of pointless now.

Endgame isn't Endless anymore in the way it was, because without a reward to show you've done it, all you have is bragging rights... and we know how meaningful those are online...

It could be Onslaught, but most people that aren't farming Focus have got all the rewards out of Onslaught, I maxed my Focus out six months ago, I was on the last week of farming to finish it when the mode was introduced, so I only went to Onslaught for Khora and the Vandals anyway...

It might be Elite Alerts, whatever they're going to be called? But the Prime Time stream showed them having a significant nerf to their difficulty level since we first heard about them, from starting level 100 right down to level 60...

Much like you, I'm trying to find content that is challenging and enjoyable for that challenge, and there really kind of isn't any besides making artificial difficulty levels to work off. For example when Nezha's rework came out, I realised I'd need a couple more Forma on him because I actually liked how he now played, and I tested that by taking an unranked Nezha and put a fresh forma on a rifle too, to the Plains for the top tier Bounties. I had a bit of challenge there, until I ranked up enough to unlock his Chakram and then Halo, and suddenly it was all smooth sailing again.

But DE have made it pretty clear that they don't want to put in scaling rewards that return their game to the long-run culture, where the best rewards are only available to people that put in hours and hours of their time for a single mission, so without using these false difficulty modes, like Onslaught that resets you every 2 minutes, or Elite Alerts that have insta-fail conditions, there doesn't appear to be much option.

[EinheriarJudith]

5 hours ago, Thaylien said:

~snip~

i hate when you understand me so well hehehe. DE can benefit heavily with more modes. rathuum and index need a revision. we definitely need that difficulty slider Steve was talking about so long ago and it would be icing on the top if we could manually put modifiers on mission nodes. i think i had to put 1 forma on top of what i had for nexha but the tweaks he got imo were the ones i was waiting for. his request for opt out of reworks wont happen but we all should know that not everyone will like all the changes that happen. i didnt mind saryn 2.0, and i actually prefer old hydroid to the new pressandholdroid we have now.

[5H4DE]

If you liked old nezha more then just play Rhino. The old Nezha was nothing but a discount walmart version of Rhino and that's how everyone played him 99% of the time.

You say you don't like firewalker being duration based, does that mean that you don't enjoy being able to regenerate energy with it active or that you are too lazy to recast it when it ends?

You say you liked the old AoE heal of B Chakram better but that thing was mostly useless with a small range

You say you don't like the new Warding Halo because it's not full damage absorb anymore, for that refer back to my initial statement, the new one is way better with the invincibility and the AoE CC it provides.when it goes down.

 

You say he's not fun anymore, from my perspective (as well as the majority of the playerbase most likely) the old nezha was a boring, clunky mess that didn't know what and how it wanted to play, the new nezha finally has a kit that's fluid and doesn't restrict you.

Again if what you want is 100% damage absorb then go play Rhino instead as he's much better at it than Nezha ever was. If you want healing then there are plenty of frames that do that way better than Nezha ever did, if you want both then go play a Hysteria Valkyr, your healing range would be the same as before and you get true damage immunity.

[Birdframe_Prime]

49 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

his request for opt out of reworks wont happen

Quite apart from how ridiculous it would be to opt out of updates (does anyone remember the week and a half of Nuke Limbo with Cataclysm multiplying its damage based on how many enemies were inside it, meaning that it could actually nuke up to level 150's without much effort... yeah, imagine having that and then opting out of future versions), I just can't imagine why this version of Nezha isn't actually better for anyone who uses him...

I get your point, not everyone will like change, but... I mean, come on...

Everything is better about him. Even with only having Damage Reduction instead of Damage Prevention. Even with his healing now being dropped Orbs rather than a Healing Pulse.

Because both his survivability and his health restoration are genuinely that much more reliable. For the player and for all their allies.

[(PSN)jockhotty]

This is always a problem in this new era of gaming. I always thought a suitable solution would be rather than opt out,  allow for reversions in the simulcron, or allow in solo mode gameplay. I can understand forcing the lockout of certain powers when they lead to excessive exploit in solo mode. In simulcron though, you would enable displeased ' customers' the chance to relive their gladiating days and experiment with new strategies that could be tested against their older strategies and possibly lead to things or ideas that had not been fully considered. For extra code to allow in simulcron, I dont see how they could go wrong.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

7 hours ago, (PS4)jockhotty said:

This is always a problem in this new era of gaming. I always thought a suitable solution would be rather than opt out,  allow for reversions in the simulcron, or allow in solo mode gameplay. I can understand forcing the lockout of certain powers when they lead to excessive exploit in solo mode. In simulcron though, you would enable displeased ' customers' the chance to relive their gladiating days and experiment with new strategies that could be tested against their older strategies and possibly lead to things or ideas that had not been fully considered. For extra code to allow in simulcron, I dont see how they could go wrong.

I doubt enabling people to allow to use older non-updated abilities would please them and it will be a waste of code. Opting out of updated mechanics makes not sense otherwise why update it in the first place? It's a general consensus that Nezha is much better than before so instead of the OP trying to adapt/cope with it he wants the old Nezha back? Rhino is still there for all his better (old)Nezha needs.

[Axio.]

I actually really like the new Nezha! As someone who looks towards him as a "Rhino, but looks cuter" kind of character, I enjoy playing him as a supporty, Halo-focused build.

The reason why I like these changes so much are because of the changes to his Blazing Chakram. The ability to cause enemies to drop Health Orbs 100% of the time makes the Health Conversion mod viable on him. With all the armor mods (Armored Agility, Steel Fiber, and Gladiator Aegis), and decent amount of power strength (Blind Rage and Power Drift), you can get Nezha to 4575 Armor! At that level of Armor, you take 6.15% of the damage you would normally take, and your health (and armor) is protected by your Halo, so it's just another layer of defense. And what's more, his Warding Halo scales with Armor!

With a fully stacked Health Conversion and a primed and ready Energy Conversion, Nezha's Warding Halo has a baseline shield of 14,000, which is not something to sneeze at, especially when you consider the fact that you can shield your teammates for 7,000 using Safeguard, as well as making them immune to status!

The reason it wouldn't work before is that Health Orbs don't drop all that frequently unless you have a Nekros or some other frame that encourages their drop rates, and so trying to stack up Health Conversion without dying was difficult, if not pointless. However now, you are able to take damage, Halo up, use your Blazing Chakram to stack your Health Conversion, and then simply take a little jump off a cliff to get the Halo off of you, using it as soon as you respawn from voiding out.

And this is without taking into account the increased ratio that Nezha's Warding Halo received in terms of the first three seconds of invulnerability! With this much power strength, (196% with a rank 8 Blind Rage and maxed Power Drift), the ratio for damage is 4.9x. That's a lot higher than it used to be, if memory serves me right. But now Nezha is in a great place, in my opinion.

Not to mention, you can synergize well with your teammates using Blazing Chakram's mobility, and its newly added ability to cause enemies to drop Energy Orbs. With an Arcane Energize and a small group of enemies, it's almost guaranteed that you'll be able to make all the channeling frames you random with happy.

 

Add that on to the changes to Warding Halo, such as how it now deals Slash damage, as well as makes you invulnerable for 1 second when it expires, and I really think that DE did a favor to all the Nezha enthusiasts out there, such as myself. He's a great frame with decent CC, high mobility, and the coveted ability to make his teammates immune to status effects and knockdowns, as well as a way to provide health orbs and energy to his team, without the need for specing into additional Power Range.

(And mind you, don't even get me started on how well his kit synergizes with itself now, with the changes to his Chakram and his Spears... It was such a nice quality of life change, and I'm really happy to be playing Nezha again.)

Edited September 22, 2018 by Axio.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

9 hours ago, Axio. said:

The reason it wouldn't work before is that Health Orbs don't drop all that frequently unless you have a Nekros or some other frame that encourages their drop rates, and so trying to stack up Health Conversion without dying was difficult, if not pointless. However now, you are able to take damage, Halo up, use your Blazing Chakram to stack your Health Conversion, and then simply take a little jump off a cliff to get the Halo off of you, using it as soon as you respawn from voiding out.

Nezha's Blazing chakram never dropped health orbs before the rework

[Axio.]

19 hours ago, ShadowExodus said:

Nezha's Blazing chakram never dropped health orbs before the rework

I explained this. You may have skimmed over the part where I said "However now..."

And to think, someone gave you rep for being a moron.

[(PSN)jockhotty]

On 2018-09-22 at 3:51 PM, ShadowExodus said:

I doubt enabling people to allow to use older non-updated abilities would please them and it will be a waste of code. Opting out of updated mechanics makes not sense otherwise why update it in the first place? It's a general consensus that Nezha is much better than before so instead of the OP trying to adapt/cope with it he wants the old Nezha back? Rhino is still there for all his better (old)Nezha needs.

haha well those players are exceedingly angered, and precisely because they cant do what they were doing before. The code is no real big deal especially if this thing would only occur in simulcron space or maybe in a dojo.... Just sounds like a fun idea experimenting and comparing with older and newer builds as well as appeasing the angry somewhat.

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

 

On 2018-09-22 at 1:13 PM, Axio. said:

The reason it wouldn't work before is that Health Orbs don't drop all that frequently unless you have a Nekros or some other frame that encourages their drop rates

Isn't this referring to pre-Nezha 🤔 I mean, I find it weird that you said "it wouldn't work before" like Nezha could drop health orbs pre-revisit while still addressing the 100% drop chance in the previous paragraph. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong but no need to be a *@##&#036; because I understood incorrectly.

[Axio.]

23 hours ago, ShadowExodus said:

 

Isn't this referring to pre-Nezha 🤔 I mean, I find it weird that you said "it wouldn't work before" like Nezha could drop health orbs pre-revisit while still addressing the 100% drop chance in the previous paragraph. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong but no need to be a *@##&#036; because I understood incorrectly.

Yes, it is referring to pre-Nezha, and how the build idea WOULD NOT WORK because getting health orbs to randomly drop was VERY unreliable, and you would need a Nekros or someone else who can increase health orb drop rates in order for the build to function. The reason I mentioned it was to give an example of how the rework opened up a new build path on Nezha that had previously been very difficult to work with.

The reason I said "It wouldn't work before" is because it literally would not work. It would require either very good luck in terms of health orbs dropping, or coordination with friends to play a frame that can increase the health orb drop rates. I said it would not work because, previously, it would not work. Or at the very least, the effort was not worth the reward, as you could only feasibly make the build work properly based on RNG. Now, however, there is no RNG involved, because his 2 now has a 100% chance to drop a Health Orb, meaning that this mod is viable on him, when before the rework, it was not.