"Cautious shot" should be a sidearm mod

[Redwyrm]

...or at least make sidearm version of it.

Most popular weapon that capable of inflicting self damage is obliviously hikou (with concealed explosives). Waaay more popular than any other self-damaging weapons.

 

And btw mod doesn't says on which weapon you can equip it. You can find it out only after buying it.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Redwyrm

[Kyoresh]

13 minutes ago, Redwyrm said:

Waaay more popular than any other self-damaging weapons

lol...Zarr, Tonkor? Ogris? Penta? ever heard of those?^^

[Redwyrm]

1 minute ago, Kyoresh said:

lol...Zarr, Tonkor? Ogris? Penta? ever heard of those?^^

Yep, and also not using those. Only ogris can reach same 10m AoE, and then still nowhere as effective as explosive hikou...

[Kyoresh]

Just now, Redwyrm said:

Yep, and also not using those. Only ogris can reach same 10m AoE, and then still nowhere as effective as explosive hikou...

Zarr is one of the strongest weapons in the game, same  as Phantasma

Tonkor, Ogris and Penta are way weaker but still stronger  than Hikou...

[Redwyrm]

5 minutes ago, Kyoresh said:

Zarr is one of the strongest weapons in the game, same  as Phantasma

Tonkor, Ogris and Penta are way weaker but still stronger  than Hikou...

Zarr have only 5m AoE, which alone already makes it TWICE less attractive compare to hikou and ogris...

And of course likewise, with 5m AoE it TWICE less needed to have "cautious shot"

Edited October 14, 2018 by Redwyrm

[Kyoresh]

Just now, Redwyrm said:

Zarr have only 5m AoE, which alone already makes it TWICE less attractive compare to hikou and ogris..

so you think the effectiveness of a weapon can be measured by the radius of their explosion? LOL

[Redwyrm]

1 minute ago, Kyoresh said:

so you think the effectiveness of a weapon can be measured by the radius of their explosion? LOL

Providing taht WF is a game where we usualy fight 4 warframes vs several hundred mobs (on a single map)... oh yes, it absolutely AoE that counts most of all...

Why do you think Saryn is so OP and overly popular?

[Kyoresh]

13 minutes ago, Redwyrm said:

Providing taht WF is a game where we usualy fight 4 warframes vs several hundred mobs (on a single map)... oh yes, it absolutely AoE that counts most of all...

Why do you think Saryn is so OP and overly popular?

but do you even know that the damage of concealed explosives doesnt scale with mods? so you may have a big explosion, but it wont even hurt a butcher on higher levels.

 

Edit: I've never seen anyone use Hikou except selfdamage Chromas

Edited October 14, 2018 by Kyoresh

[DarkRuler2500]

I agree to this.
not because of the Hikous but because of Kulstar and Angstrum.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

23 hours ago, Kyoresh said:

lol...Zarr, Tonkor? Ogris? Penta? ever heard of those?^^

you forget the Lenz, freeze and kill yourself.

[Duality52]

23 hours ago, Redwyrm said:

Yep, and also not using those. Only ogris can reach same 10m AoE, and then still nowhere as effective as explosive hikou...

Concealed Explosives do not scale beyond their 250 damage, aside from using any Faction damage mods (Wiki). That's not much in comparsion to the other explosives which can offer better damage and utility (Penta's Tether Grenades, Ogris's Nightwatch Napalm, the first cold punch of the Lenz, etc.). than a CE Hikou (Prime).

[000l000]

Or an exilus frame mod.

[Kyoresh]

2 hours ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

you forget the Lenz, freeze and kill yourself.

ye Im not really a fan of Lenz. Big explosions, but so low damage.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

1 hour ago, Kyoresh said:

ye Im not really a fan of Lenz. Big explosions, but so low damage.

You serious about Lenz being low damage ? the 50% base crit with point strike is 125% crit.

My Lenz 0 forma is more damage than my 2 forma Tonkor.

It is possible to survive self damage from Zarr, but Tonkor and Lenz is instant death.
 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Ada_Wong_SG

[Kyoresh]

30 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

It is possible to survive self damage from Zarr, but Tonkor and Lenz is instant death.

not really lol xD

31 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

You serious about Lenz being low damage ? the 50% base crit with point strike is 125% crit.

ye, the mostly blast damage makes it kinda weak

[AvaloN1101]

I'm a bit curious to know what kind of damage your weapons are doing, gents. In my experience, the vast majority of many types of self damage from strong weapons such as the Zarr, Lenz, etc., is lethal anyway. I personally view this mod as useless or, at the very least, the ways in which it does work won't leave you in any favorable condition anyway. Like, if the Zarr is arguably the strongest weapon in the game, and there are quite a few weapons that do 4-, 5-, and 6-figure numbers in damage, what makes you think that you can tank 10% of that and be safe? Or even 10% of 10% of that without having high armor? I feel like I'm missing something here so I hope you guys can help me understand a bit better, because I really want to like a lot of these new mods including this one but I don't see it happening.

[OvisCaedo]

no, this mod really is pretty much just terrible. it might let tanks survive one of their own shots, and that's about it. self damage has been something DE and some of the community members have been VERY stubborn on as a design principle for years, and I think this mod is deliberately bad as a result.

that being said, there are ACTUAL explosive secondaries that it should probably be equippable on. Angstrum and Kulstar, for instance. not that it matters unless they make the mod not garbage.

Edited October 15, 2018 by OvisCaedo

[Ada_Wong_SG]

9 hours ago, Kyoresh said:

not really lol xD

ye, the mostly blast damage makes it kinda weak

I am really curious how you build your Lenz / Tonkor that they wont 1 hit youself ?

Maybe I should give my Zarr more forma, just so they are on par with the other 2.

Bear in mind, even 90% damage reduction we are still talking about taking 3,113.2 damage from Lenz
and 4,869 damage from Tonkor, I tried with Trinity using Blessing build and still manages to 1 hit myself with Lenz at over 90% damage reduction.


1 forma Lenz build
3.240 corrosive, 3.835 blast. 125% crit, 4.4x multiplier
meaning on average it is 14,256 Corrosive, 16,874 Blast. at the 100% crit
I probably should forma my Lenz more to throw in better build, as of now it is kind of not full potential.



4 forma Tonkor, the damage is sort of on-par with the Lenz at 1 forma 
siven 2,736 Heat, 3,648 Corrosive, 2,470 Blast, 5.5x crit , split chamber increases average damage output since 62.5% crit, one out of the two will usually crit.
so a crit shot is  15,048 Heat, 20,064 Corrosive, 13,585 Blast

That is not counting in the second multishot, which can also crit if you got really unlucky and that happen to be self damage, 
which double the damage.

 

My Zarr is weakest among the three, so definitely need upgrade with forma, the strange thing is the cluster bomb will take enemies out easily
even when the number looks small. Maybe a full status build as opposed to heat I use blast, or maybe hybrid build.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Ada_Wong_SG

[Kyoresh]

8 hours ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

I am really curious how you build your Lenz / Tonkor that they wont 1 hit youself ?

Maybe I should give my Zarr more forma, just so they are on par with the other 2.

Bear in mind, even 90% damage reduction we are still talking about taking 3,113.2 damage from Lenz
and 4,869 damage from Tonkor, I tried with Trinity using Blessing build and still manages to 1 hit myself with Lenz at over 90% damage reduction.


1 forma Lenz build
3.240 corrosive, 3.835 blast. 125% crit, 4.4x multiplier
meaning on average it is 14,256 Corrosive, 16,874 Blast. at the 100% crit
I probably should forma my Lenz more to throw in better build, as of now it is kind of not full potential.



4 forma Tonkor, the damage is sort of on-par with the Lenz at 1 forma 
siven 2,736 Heat, 3,648 Corrosive, 2,470 Blast, 5.5x crit , split chamber increases average damage output since 62.5% crit, one out of the two will usually crit.
so a crit shot is  15,048 Heat, 20,064 Corrosive, 13,585 Blast

That is not counting in the second multishot, which can also crit if you got really unlucky and that happen to be self damage, 
which double the damage.

 

My Zarr is weakest among the three, so definitely need upgrade with forma, the strange thing is the cluster bomb will take enemies out easily
even when the number looks small. Maybe a full status build as opposed to heat I use blast, or maybe hybrid build.

I can one Hit myself with all 3 weapons never said I couldnt. But you got no Crit and no HM in Zarr thats probably the Problem.

My Lenz build is pretty much the same except that I use a 90%elemental instead of a Dual stat.

Still Lenz Deals less damage than Zarr against high Level enemies

[Sablesword]

The Lenz is actually pretty survivable as self-damage inflicting weapons go. The cold pulse generally won't kill most frames, and it gives you a second or two to either roll out of the blast range (which is actually smaller than the cold pulse) or switch to operator and go into void mode. 

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

Yeah, but it's so funny when you blow yourself up with the Lenz. I have a crit %+DMG riven on mine and even 90% damage reduction would be an instakill for even my maxed out tank frames.

On 2018-10-14 at 4:51 PM, Redwyrm said:

Yep, and also not using those. Only ogris can reach same 10m AoE, and then still nowhere as effective as explosive hikou.

Hikou? Really? I recently got the prime variant and it seems to be MR fodder. What's your build?

[Redwyrm]

On 2018-10-16 at 9:56 PM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Yeah, but it's so funny when you blow yourself up with the Lenz. I have a crit %+DMG riven on mine and even 90% damage reduction would be an instakill for even my maxed out tank frames.

Hikou? Really? I recently got the prime variant and it seems to be MR fodder. What's your build?

https://i.imgur.com/YOZH9ff.png
Undre formaing, so missing last mod. normally last one goes either expel grineer, expel infested or expel corpus. Although i would be more than happy to use equivalent of "caution shot". Chroma is only frame that can easily sustain self-damage. But then chroma have no means of enhancing damage from concealed explosives (his buff enhance direct hikou damage, but not explosive from mod). Mirage and Rhino can greatly enhance explosive damage, but, despite been tanky frames, can't really sustain self damage from it for long.

 

Also, non-prime hikou (obviously) better (slightly) for concealed explosives. I just like to use fancier prime variant.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Redwyrm

[Redwyrm]

On 2018-10-15 at 6:28 PM, Duality52 said:

Concealed Explosives do not scale beyond their 250 damage, aside from using any Faction damage mods (Wiki). That's not much in comparsion to the other explosives which can offer better damage and utility (Penta's Tether Grenades, Ogris's Nightwatch Napalm, the first cold punch of the Lenz, etc.). than a CE Hikou (Prime).

Yes and no.

First of all i would add that self-damage from CE actualy 70, not 250. It wouldn't stop modding it with rate of fire and multishot. Which still can insta-kill any but tankies of frames with self damage.

As of damage it to mobs, Expel Grineer/Corpus/Infested actualy do enhance damage beyond 250, to 325.

Mirage can further enhance it by 50% per clone (and such +100% with two clones), and further +50% (and up to +200%) with Hall of Malevolence mod.

Rhino likewise enhance explosive damage with his Roar. And since that AoE buff both him and his allies will benefit from it. Theoretically MIrage with both her buff and Rhino's buff can do up to about 2700 explosive damage per (exploded) hikou (before resistance and armor calculation for end damage). With maxed out rate of fire and multishot thats roughly 60 hikou thrown per second. And thus about 129,600 DPS.... Of course that's also about 28k self-damage DPS 😛 And providing that its 10 meter AoE, taht's really something you would normally want to reduce 😛 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Redwyrm

[Duality52]

43 minutes ago, Redwyrm said:

Yes and no.

First of all i would add that self-damage from CE actualy 70, not 250. It wouldn't stop modding it with rate of fire and multishot. Which still can insta-kill any but tankies of frames with self damage.

As of damage it to mobs, Expel Grineer/Corpus/Infested actualy do enhance damage beyond 250, to 325.

Mirage can further enhance it by 50% per clone (and such +100% with two clones), and further +50% (and up to +200%) with Hall of Malevolence mod.

Rhino likewise enhance explosive damage with his Roar. And since that AoE buff bot he and his allies will benefit from it. Theoretically MIrage with both her buff and Rhino's buff can do up to about 2700 explosive damage per (exploded) hikou (before resistance and armor calculation for end damage). With maxed out rate of fire and multishot thats roughly 60 hikou thrown per second. And thus about 129,600 DPS.... Of course that's also about 28k self-damage DPS 😛 And providing that its 10 meter AoE, taht's really something you would normally want to reduce 😛 

Again, what's makes Concealed Explosives negligible, even with the Hikou (Prime), is the immerse scaling of the enemy health type.

Even if you increase the damage to somewhere near 1000, it's going to chew through your ammo due to the scaling.

I guess the Corpus are the only ones that can't really protect themselves from CE aside from Nullifiers. The Ancient Healer would take no damage while heavily reducing the damage for any Infested in its range. Don't even get me started with armor. The Grineer in particular would be laughing at your tiny firecrackers.

[Redwyrm]

10 minutes ago, Duality52 said:

Again, what's makes Concealed Explosives negligible, even with the Hikou (Prime), is the immerse scaling of the enemy health type.

Even if you increase the damage to somewhere near 1000, it's going to chew through your ammo due to the scaling.

I guess the Corpus are the only ones that can't really protect themselves from CE aside from Nullifiers. The Ancient Healer would take no damage while heavily reducing the damage for any Infested in its range. Don't even get me started with armor. The Grineer in particular would be laughing at your tiny firecrackers.

Healers actually can be taken down fairly easily with direct damage from hikou. Even though direct damage not great with such build, its still more than enough to kill healer, especially if headshoting him (which is frankly very easy).

And ammo, with ammo mutation mod never was a problem for me.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Redwyrm