Ability Angst in Cataclysm Clashes: Thoughts on Limbo Hate and Discouraging of Co-op Play

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

On 2018-11-01 at 4:07 AM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

How's this different to a Frost - Gara? Frost - Frost?  Gara - Gara? Gara - Octavia? Frost - Khora? Gara - Khora? Welp. You get the idea.  

Most of these don't have the sheer range of Limbo.

Frost?  The globes can come down, from both damage and Frost casting one too many.  But are basically safe spaces for you to shoot from assuming enemies don't enter.  It also doesn't constantly shrink.

Gara?  Gara's a neat frame, but her walls are imperfect, and an offensive weapon.  Again, they break.

I run a max range Khora, you know?  Range/Duration.  My dome is pretty big, but not huge and up for ~40 seconds.  It's basically a shooting gallery for my allies.  But it can't catch everything so the Octavia in the team can also have their mallet draw agro, or their 3 for buffs.

Nidus - Khora is a bad mix because her ult gets in the way of his core mechanic.

These other abilities have smaller range, smaller effect, and are far far more 'stable.'

The solution isn't a nerf, it might be a slight rework. But no, the solution, I think, is for the cataclysm to be at the top of the list for combo attacks when they are launched.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Most of these don't have the sheer range of Limbo.

Frost?  The globes can come down, from both damage and Frost casting one too many.  But are basically safe spaces for you to shoot from assuming enemies don't enter.  It also doesn't constantly shrink.

Gara?  Gara's a neat frame, but her walls are imperfect, and an offensive weapon.  Again, they break.

I run a max range Khora, you know?  Range/Duration.  My dome is pretty big, but not huge and up for ~40 seconds.  It's basically a shooting gallery for my allies.  But it can't catch everything so the Octavia in the team can also have their mallet draw agro, or their 3 for buffs.

Nidus - Khora is a bad mix because her ult gets in the way of his core mechanic.

These other abilities have smaller range, smaller effect, and are far far more 'stable.'

The solution isn't a nerf, it might be a slight rework. But no, the solution, I think, is for the cataclysm to be at the top of the list for combo attacks when they are launched.

Regarding the starting range, fair enough but recall that limbo's bubble doesn't stay that size. My Gara's walls do stay at the same size something in the higher 20's I think. And because of their range, if I get a good sized wave of high level enemies stuck in the amber, well.... That wall rapidly goes from around 4k up to "who knows" strong. And when it goes down, I can usually toss another up. 

Yes I can use her 4 offensively, Limbo can as well if he doesn't just cast and forget. I've seen a lot of times pre-rework where I wished Limbo would pop the bubble and just kill the all remaining mobs instead of making us run them down. A lot of people forget that, like Frost, Limbo can pop the bubble at any time.

Granted Gara's wall can be used to fuel my 'let me hug you with a cloud of broken glass', but in a lot of cases I don't really draw much benefits in the first rotation so I often use it defensively. 

 

Now do you know how many times I've seen a Frost trying to make a super strong bubble around a cryopod that was inside of my walls? I don't, but I am always happy to see it, because it's an added layer of redundancy, if my walls go down, or I decide that it's time to transform myself into an inside out blender, I know that it'll hold for a while. That's not really very different from your example of a Frost bubble inside of Limbo's bubble. I've seen all of the examples I gave of one inside the other, and in most cases, there wasn't anything wrong with having both layers of protection. 

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

3 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Most of these don't have the sheer range of Limbo.

Frost?  The globes can come down, from both damage and Frost casting one too many.  But are basically safe spaces for you to shoot from assuming enemies don't enter.  It also doesn't constantly shrink.

Gara?  Gara's a neat frame, but her walls are imperfect, and an offensive weapon.  Again, they break.

I run a max range Khora, you know?  Range/Duration.  My dome is pretty big, but not huge and up for ~40 seconds.  It's basically a shooting gallery for my allies.  But it can't catch everything so the Octavia in the team can also have their mallet draw agro, or their 3 for buffs.

Nidus - Khora is a bad mix because her ult gets in the way of his core mechanic.

These other abilities have smaller range, smaller effect, and are far far more 'stable.'

The solution isn't a nerf, it might be a slight rework. But no, the solution, I think, is for the cataclysm to be at the top of the list for combo attacks when they are launched.

I checked octs abilities and its her 1 that has the crazy range duration and attack power

Limbos 4 shrinks over time for a reason: his 3 requires enemies to leave the rift for a radial banish to trigger but how can they leave if they're all frozen in place? The initial solution is dont use stasis over his 3 but then he'll die due to his low health shields and armour so they made the bubble shrink allowing everything to happen at once

Rifted enemies outside cataclysm still in stasis (the radial banish brings up the timer on banish for the player to monitor) changes the "everything in this bubble is doomed but oh crap its shrinking already" to "everything in and near this bubble is already dead"

If other frame abilities work regardless of their plane of existence then id say sure bubble stasis then anything else even bring some that support cataclysm pulling enemies in etc

If not then i think it should be at the bottom of the list after all the prep work is done

 

Also ive watched my mega sized bubble shrink down to about the size of a snow globe from frost

Additionally no one seems to care that these "wall" abilities and "shields" deal damage when they finally break and they don't need to be placed on the target of defense missions  if there's a group of enemies at the edge (but inside) of the bubble too strong to kill before the bubble or stasis drops but too powerful to step out and deal with (or too many) cast a "shield" down to take the hits including those stopped by stasis  then when the shield drops they take a ton of damage no one even needs to be in it

If the shields too weak to deal much damage try modding for strength (idk if it ups the durability but even if it doesn't it should still up the dmg output when it explodes)

Edited November 3, 2018 by (XB1)Darthgollum 01

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

On 2018-11-03 at 8:46 AM, (XB1)Darthgollum 01 said:

I checked octs abilities and its her 1 that has the crazy range duration and attack power

Octavia's first is reactive.  It doesn't do anything but provide aggro distraction and noise for her 4 unless enemies hit it--and no, you can't use self damage weapons on it.

Limbos, when I played him, were actively discouraged by their allies from using their whole suite, specifically, their 1 and especially their 3 because of the banishing mechanic.

You get Limbos who will basically rely on their passive and their 1, using their 4 and 2 only when things get hairy.  You get ones with various kinds of bubbles.  And you get ones with big range and high duration.  You gotta change your playstyle for each limbo style and you don't know ahead of time what kind they are.  Name other warframes where you got to do that.

When I'm playing a heavy caster-damage frame, especially a squishy one, I love Limbo, Banish me, I type, and I can spam my abilities slightly faster.  When I got a run and gun frame out he doesn't bother me too much.

But some abilities are reactive, and some are conditional, and as fitting to a mathematician, he changes the conditions.

I don't think the solution is a nerf, or an ability tweak--both have the possibility to make Limbo either OP or unplayable.  But rather, when the idea of combo attacks come back to DE's list, Cataclysm has to be first in line.

[(PSN)teacup775]

From the wiki

 

”Almost all Warframe abilities, on the other hand, doaffect combatants across planes. Direct damage abilities (like Shuriken or Avalanche) and non-damaging abilities (like Chaos or Radial Blind), will work identically with no regard to plane. Valkyr's Hysteria does not work across planes, yet Mesa's Peacemaker does. Weapon damage modified by ability augments such as Smite Infusion or Fireball Frenzy, do not affect between planes. A Sentinel's Coolant Leak is also inter-planar.”

Debuff abilities like avalanche are still useful.

DE could have tried harder to make the consequences of being in or out the rift visually evident.

But in a larger editorial note, wframe doesn’t really do coop. Squaddies are single serving allies mostly running off to do their own thing and maybe you get a revive out of them.

Interception is probably the only exception.

Team work is not even emphasized in latter quests which are not only solo missions but solo cinematics.

I don’t expect they’ll make “all lift together” meaningful for game play in Fortuna, that’s left for rail jack.

Edited November 5, 2018 by (PS4)teacup775

[Azamagon]

Still think this guy had the best rework for Limbo (which made it almost perfectly userfriendly and everything)

 

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

19 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Octavia's first is reactive.  It doesn't do anything but provide aggro distraction and noise for her 4 unless enemies hit it--and no, you can't use self damage weapons on it.

Limbos, when I played him, were actively discouraged by their allies from using their whole suite, specifically, their 1 and especially their 3 because of the banishing mechanic.

You get Limbos who will basically rely on their passive and their 1, using their 4 and 2 only when things get hairy.  You get ones with various kinds of bubbles.  And you get ones with big range and high duration.  You gotta change your playstyle for each limbo style and you don't know ahead of time what kind they are.  Name other warframes where you got to do that.

When I'm playing a heavy caster-damage frame, especially a squishy one, I love Limbo, Banish me, I type, and I can spam my abilities slightly faster.  When I got a run and gun frame out he doesn't bother me too much.

But some abilities are reactive, and some are conditional, and as fitting to a mathematician, he changes the conditions.

I don't think the solution is a nerf, or an ability tweak--both have the possibility to make Limbo either OP or unplayable.  But rather, when the idea of combo attacks come back to DE's list, Cataclysm has to be first in line.

Ive seen octavia kill with her 1 the description even says it damages them

Id say all warframes are best when you switch your playstyle to match with your teams playstyle limbo is just emphasized on that regard if anything limbo encourages coop play within a team

[Cuchullin]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Darthgollum 01 said:

Id say all warframes are best when you switch your playstyle to match with your teams playstyle limbo is just emphasized on that regard if anything limbo encourages coop play within a team

That would work in a pre setup team but it would be far harder on a public matchmaking mission. Sure if the limbo is setup for a particular mission type that's still no guarantee that it will work well with other player's. Don't get me wrong I'm not bashing limbo as a frame and an argument can be made that all frames suffer from this to a degree it's just that limbo suffers from this more then most.

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

To name specifics mag you gotta watch and see if she pulls everything towards her or freezes everything where it is some play semi support too recharging allies shields when they need it and others pull everything in then crush it

Valkyr has a similar variety some people i imagine use her grapplehook to traverse and even kill enemies (throwing them off the map etc) others use the hook to traverse but mostly just tank hits using her 4 to survive others play semi support using her warcry slowing enemies speeding up and strengthening allies

Inaros the sand guy some players use his passive aggressively dying in hordes of enemies to drain them and revive himself if another player comes along and starts killing the enemies it messes with inaros he becomes the annoying guy who keeps dying constantly

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

2 minutes ago, Cuchullin said:

That would work in a pre setup team but it would be far harder on a public matchmaking mission. Sure if the limbo is setup for a particular mission type that's still no guarantee that it will work well with other player's. Don't get me wrong I'm not bashing limbo as a frame and an argument can be made that all frames suffer from this to a degree it's just that limbo suffers from this more then most.

True though id say players relying on limbos passive and 1 to kill enemies are more like trollers unless they're banishing allies too and the game in its entirety seems based on communication within the team 

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

On 2018-11-06 at 7:34 AM, (XB1)Darthgollum 01 said:

Ive seen octavia kill with her 1 the description even says it damages them

Yeah, Octavia is a caster DPS.  But it stores damage and pulses it out, that's why it scales.

[-BM-Inservio]

On 2018-11-01 at 10:07 AM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

How's this different to a Frost - Gara? Frost - Frost?  Gara - Gara? Gara - Octavia? Frost - Khora? Gara - Khora? Welp. You get the idea. 

Gara just blinds everyone, and until the inside of both her wall and frost's bubble are no longer skinned, there's just no way around that beyond choose black energy from the Smoke palette.

Cooperative Frost, however, I like the sound of VERY much. Given how insanely distracting it is when someone has bright pink or green snow obscuring your defense target (or the entire game if you can stand it long enough to remain inside the bubble), how nested bubbles effectively turn into privacy glass, and how 90% of Frosts don't seem to know you can pop your own bubble with your first ability, it would be downright MINDBLOWING if Frosts could interact with eachother's bubbles the way they interact with their own.
Bubbles cast within the bubble of another frost would stack rather than nest, with the stronger overriding the weaker, any Freeze would pop any bubble, and (totally seperate from this change but LOOOONG overdue) anyone standing inside such a bubble could get a buff icon indicating the bubble's remaining armour, a la Rhino's Iron Skin, to motivate better team communication.

Heck, for such a change I'd even be willing to endure a nerf to bubble strength! 😏

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, -BM-Inservio said:

Gara just blinds everyone, and until the inside of both her wall and frost's bubble are no longer skinned, there's just no way around that beyond choose black energy from the Smoke palette.

Uh... The bit you quoted was in reference to the complaint that Limbo makes bubbles that envelope other frames defensive bubbles, making the inner one redundant. Each of the combinations I offered can produce similar effects. 

[-BM-Inservio]

3 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Uh... The bit you quoted was in reference to the complaint that Limbo makes bubbles that envelope other frames defensive bubbles, making the inner one redundant. Each of the combinations I offered can produce similar effects. 

Yeah the multiquote got lost in the fray, I see now. The quote you see pertains to the cooperative frost, not gara's visuals.

[DBugII]

The issue is that there are infinitely more bad Limbo players than the handful of good ones I've had the luxury of running in to during a PUG. I mean you could be that guy who casts Banish on the last enemy of every wave in a defense mission with max power duration and watch as your entire squad DCs (assuming they didn't once they realized they had a Limbo in the squad).

That said, the core issue with Limbo is his ability to cut enemies off from allied sources of damage/afflictions which can make him entirely asynchronous in co-op play with other Warframes and most weapons. This can range from mildly annoying and absolutely aggravating for longer missions. It's a bad mechanic IMO.

[Cephalycion]

On 2018-10-31 at 10:16 PM, (PS4)negativ21 said:

What he is trying to say is that this problem of being overshadowed is nothing new to warframe and an inherent risk to co-op play. This can happen to any frame and in any squad. If I bring any dps frame to a mission which is not saryn/volt/Octavia/equinox and one of these are present, my purpose is limited or gone. If I bring a cc frame like corroding barrage hydroid or terrify nekros or nyx, or petrify atlas, and my squad has a better one, then I'm beat. Same with support and other frame classes. It's even more likely if one happens to be a mid level player with an imperfect build. The majority of players who encounter this adjust in that mission, or take a set squad. It's never gonna not happen in warframe.

Basically my take on this.

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

11 hours ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Yeah, Octavia is a caster DPS.  But it stores damage and pulses it out, that's why it scales.

Ah i believe i misunderstood "reactive" and "hit it" to mean enemies physically attacking some sort of physical object while reactive referred to the dance buffs

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

Isnt this meant to be exclusively about his 4? Where'd his 1 come from

yeah i get its the main problem now but then there'll be another problem with his 3 for example "it shouldn't do radial banish it should be fixed to do a normal banish" or "why does killing them give energy back? Fix it" and someone else will reply saying something like "it balances the cost with the reward theres no guarantee of any kills in the bubble so why bother about something so trivial?" Or "radial banish ensures it has a chance of hitting something what direction would the banish go if it wasn't radial? The enemies are generally facing the player so nothing would happen without insane range (which banish doesn't have easily) leave it as it is" then someone will find a problem with his 2 then his passive then his armour value etc etc

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

Besides abilities are interdimensional who cares what plane of existence Jim's on when frederick cast peacemaker? I don't in fact id find it funny if they were on separate planes

 

For leveling? No effect on the frames if anything banishing the last guy is helpful cuz jim can't hurt anyone else as he dies meaning no accidental mishaps

additionally banishing the last guy lets others take their time and explore the map/look for stuff/loot the place etc

[(PSN)negativ21]

5 hours ago, DBugII said:

The issue is that there are infinitely more bad Limbo players than the handful of good ones I've had the luxury of running in to during a PUG. I mean you could be that guy who casts Banish on the last enemy of every wave in a defense mission with max power duration and watch as your entire squad DCs (assuming they didn't once they realized they had a Limbo in the squad).

That said, the core issue with Limbo is his ability to cut enemies off from allied sources of damage/afflictions which can make him entirely asynchronous in co-op play with other Warframes and most weapons. This can range from mildly annoying and absolutely aggravating for longer missions. It's a bad mechanic IMO.

I'm gonna have to be honest about this. I've been seeing and hearing players on forums and Youtube (content creators and comments) for more than a couple years mention how the "good" limbo players are constantly overshadowed by the "bad" limbo players, and that's where the bad rep comes from. I didn't care back then because I wasn't that invested, but since then (more than a couple years) I don't think I ever recall playing with more than 4/5  truly "bad/trolly" limbo players. I mean I'm not implying people are lying, but I really haven't seen that many.

And the ones I did encounter, bad or good, basically relied only on their 4 (80% +range, 20% -range) for the duration of the mission. In the case of +range enemies aren't being cut off from anything unless you step outside the rift, which for a max range limbo is pretty far. As compared to banish where no one else can access them. In the case of -range, this isn't even an issue as your failing your job if they even get that far. Most of these encounters (good) were in sortie where players were more thankful than not for the bubble. The majority of the bad limbos I have encountered were noobs on Hydron, who were clearly still learning the frame.

It probably sounds like I'm being defensive, which I might be since I loved limbo since day 1, but I genuinely have yet to encounter many of these "bad" limbos. I'm starting to think people are just being over-sensitive. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by (PS4)negativ21

[Teridax68]

On 2018-10-19 at 5:22 AM, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

The only thing I can think of to deal with this is what I head about DE planning on having combiner attacks, if people use two different abilities at the same time they combine for a different effect.

This could be an interesting idea, though you'd either need some very solid general rules for combining any two abilities together, or a bespoke ability combination each time two different effects are used, the latter of which would be a combinatorial nightmare.

As for Limbo, as much as I liked his rework for making him not suck anymore, I have to agree that he has some pretty severe issues. On one hand, his Rift now blows Frost and Gara out of the water, because unlike their limited-health defenses, his own abilities completely ignore enemy damage, which means the only thing that can really affect a defense objective when a Limbo's around is a Nullifier. On the other, his core gameplay still revolves around removing interaction between different parts of the game, including between his teammates and enemies, which is fundamentally frustrating. He may need some more design work, though considering how the Rift in its current state is his entire identity, perhaps this may simply be a core problem with him for the rest of the game.

[(PSN)negativ21]

8 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

On one hand, his Rift now blows Frost and Gara out of the water, because unlike their limited-health defenses, his own abilities completely ignore enemy damage, which means the only thing that can really affect a defense objective when a Limbo's around is a Nullifier.

Less of a mechanic/design issue, more of an OP cry. And let's not forget nullies counter limbo bubbles HARD (especially +range ones). Gara's wall has sections that break in nully presence, her whole wall doesn't just vanish. Frost bubble does, but in my experience they r usually not as big and thus less vulnerable. Limbos whole bubble just pops if a nully so much as touches it.

[Leyers_of_facade]

On 2018-11-01 at 12:31 PM, Dabnician said:

if you truly believe a teammate is not contributing to the mission and is intentionally doing this then you your self have the power to click on their name and then click "Report player". The developer has the Analytics to be able to look up what mission the player was in with you and what they were doing and they can take action accordingly.

Otherwise your just spouting out random conjecture.

When you see a drunk getting into his car do you call the police and report him, or you can say something like "all people that drink should be put in jail even responsible drinkers" and just let him go on his way, down a highway to continue their reckless behavior.

There are 5 choices in the report button.

Spam, Offensive Language, Offensive Name, Harassment, Real-Life Threat

Leeching a mission does not correspond to any of those. So unless DE adds a report choice that is "griefing / leaving the game", your point isn't valid. While it is a bit far-stretched to argue that you are using a false analogy, I think it is fair to say your analogy is rather inappropriate as that will mean driving while drunk isn't an offense to the law.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (PS4)negativ21 said:

Less of a mechanic/design issue, more of an OP cry. And let's not forget nullies counter limbo bubbles HARD (especially +range ones). Gara's wall has sections that break in nully presence, her whole wall doesn't just vanish. Frost bubble does, but in my experience they r usually not as big and thus less vulnerable. Limbos whole bubble just pops if a nully so much as touches it.

Okay, but that is literally just one enemy type that exists on only two factions, which any of these frames can counter equally well. On top of that, when Limbo builds for defense objectives, he tends to build in such a way that the actual bubble is tiny, making it extremely difficult to pop by Nullifiers outside of the most extreme circumstances. In this respect, Frost suffers much harder, and entire defensive missions have had their balance warped by Frost. Until Limbo's rework, Frost was known as the best frame for defense objective protection by far, and post-rework Limbo blows Frost out of the water in that respect. It's not that Limbo's OP, it's that he's broken, removing interactivity from the game wherever he goes. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Teridax68

[(PSN)negativ21]

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Okay, but that is literally just one enemy type that exists on only two factions, which any of these frames can counter equally well. On top of that, when Limbo builds for defense objectives, he tends to build in such a way that the actual bubble is tiny, making it extremely difficult to pop by Nullifiers outside of the most extreme circumstances. In this respect, Frost suffers much harder, and entire defensive missions have had their balance warped by Frost. Until Limbo's rework, Frost was known as the best frame for defense objective protection by far, and post-rework Limbo blows Frost out of the water in that respect. It's not that Limbo's OP, it's that he's broken, removing interactivity from the game wherever he goes. 

There are several inconsistencies in this post argument wise. I'll address them respectively, but it still really sounds like an OP cry.

EDIT: Never mind, there's too many. 

I'm confused as to your main objective, so here is my suggestion:

1) Limbo > Frost b/c Cataclysm > Snowglobe. If you want to compare Frost and Limbo balance-wise, its best to analyze their kits as a whole, not compare their 4's side by side. 

2) Limbo = broken b/c Rift = bad game mechanic. If this is the case, plz offer at least some ideas/info as to how to change it, or just be more thorough in your qualification. 

Without a structured argument for either, I fear I wont get anywhere discussing with you. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by (PS4)negativ21