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Ability Angst in Cataclysm Clashes: Thoughts on Limbo Hate and Discouraging of Co-op Play


(PSN)NemitheNem
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Perhaps a latenight post where I am freer with my tongue and fingers than I otherwise ought be:

Now, I wasn't around for the first round of Limbo hate, with the trolling by banishing consoles and the inability to leave the rift at will.

But the hate persists, and when I was a new player I didn't understand why.  A limbo coming into my missions while I was still clearing the star chart was a god send, I was getting energy back!  I wasn't taking damage!  The enemies are holding still so I can hit them!  This is great!

But as I got better, as I refined what I preferred to have in my frames and I explored my abilities I have begun to dislike Limbo sometimes.  Or rather, I've become discouraged

Do you want to run a Frost? If the Limbo has a bigger range than you your Snowglobe is basically useless.  Avalanche?  Stasis.  Octavia?  Gotta put that mallet outside the Cataclysm.  Another Limbo?  Welp. You get the idea.

Direct damage and manipulation of enemies fairs better, like Nidus.  CC, okay.  Damage, great.  You're not dependant on not being in the Rift.

In short, reactive and defensive abilities do not mesh well.  CC and active ones it does not matter, or matters less.

It's annoying as get out and discourages co-operative play.  Part of your kit becoming meaningless speaks for itself, but because it's meaningless players at times try to remove themselves from the area that the Limbo is in so their abilities will be useful again; a fellow player becomes an obstacle.  It is essentially the Saryn problem.

Yes, weapons can counter some of this problem, you can still do damage with them, but if you're leveling?  Or if you are an ability style player?

The only thing I can think of to deal with this is what I head about DE planning on having combiner attacks, if people use two different abilities at the same time they combine for a different effect.

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I have to agree with the points on the defensive abilities not meshing with him.  Primarily im a loki player so im regularly disarming things and woth the augment they fight eachother,  except when limbo is there. He holds them stationary so all the grouping or damage theyd do to eachother is negated.  Also since loki has no other offensive abilities youre always stuck running from enemy to enemy smacking them

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44 minutes ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

But as I got better, as I refined what I preferred to have in my frames and I explored my abilities I have begun to dislike Limbo sometimes.  Or rather, I've become discouraged

Sounds like you refined your playstyle and are now dead set in your ways and Limbo upsets that reality. Become more adaptable. If my Frost's Snow Globe is eclipsed by a Limbo's Cataclysm then I stop casting Snow Globe and do something else. The same goes for every other conceivable PUG scenario where you meet a frame that might outdo your frame: learn to do something else. Co-op also includes taking a back seat when it's necessary. 

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9 hours ago, Azrael_V said:

Sounds like you refined your playstyle and are now dead set in your ways and Limbo upsets that reality. Become more adaptable. If my Frost's Snow Globe is eclipsed by a Limbo's Cataclysm then I stop casting Snow Globe and do something else. The same goes for every other conceivable PUG scenario where you meet a frame that might outdo your frame: learn to do something else. Co-op also includes taking a back seat when it's necessary. 

Funny how "dislike sometimes" translates to "dead set in your ways."  Also funny how a post that is fairly explicitly reflecting not on my individual dislike, though I use myself as a personal example, but the general dislike of Limbo is really all about me.  Methinks you are the one deadset in your reading ways.

Freeze?  Everyone is already stopped by the Cataclysm.  Icewave?  A bit more useful. Snowglobe?  Covered.  Avalanche?  Good luck getting enough enemies in range to make the price tag worth it; nice emergency button for when Cataclysm goes down though.

When I decide to bring Khora or Mesa to a defence I have no problem.  When I bring EV Trinity it's kinda pointless--but I usually bring good weapons with her because I'm support and it's fine.  Alas, damage output will top out and we'll have to leave; unlike when I bring Octavia, who has a longer duration than Khora anyways.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Funny how "dislike sometimes" translates to "dead set in your ways."  Also funny how a post that is fairly explicitly reflecting not on my individual dislike, though I use myself as a personal example, but the general dislike of Limbo is really all about me.  Methinks you are the one deadset in your reading ways.

Freeze?  Everyone is already stopped by the Cataclysm.  Icewave?  A bit more useful. Snowglobe?  Covered.  Avalanche?  Good luck getting enough enemies in range to make the price tag worth it; nice emergency button for when Cataclysm goes down though.

When I decide to bring Khora or Mesa to a defence I have no problem.  When I bring EV Trinity it's kinda pointless--but I usually bring good weapons with her because I'm support and it's fine.  Alas, damage output will top out and we'll have to leave; unlike when I bring Octavia, who has a longer duration than Khora anyways.

Uh your post is suggesting that Limbo's Cataclysm is somehow discouraging Co-op play. To which I suggest that you need to expand your definition of Co-op. Your Frost has 4 Warframe abilities and 3 Weapons. I'm sure amongst those you can find something useful to do while Cataclysm is up. DE already tweaked Limbo to be team friendly so I think the general player hate is unfounded considering that you have other options to enjoy the game in which you are matched up with a Limbo. That said I also know that people just won't let it go and next week another one of these posts will pop up. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Limbo CAN be great but at the same time the worst. this is because of the same abilities in question. its the amount of players that use him in a bad way that gets limbo hated. even if DE did tweak limbo's ability to be more team friendly, we still have to deal with the awful color choices and effects of player choices, still have to roll in and out of the rift to "adapt" to a limbo player, and still just have to accept the fact that MAJORITY of the limbo users are just leeching by staying in the rift to not take dmg while the rest of the team does all the work (specially in survival arbitration)

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On 10/19/2018 at 4:01 PM, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Funny how "dislike sometimes" translates to "dead set in your ways."  Also funny how a post that is fairly explicitly reflecting not on my individual dislike, though I use myself as a personal example, but the general dislike of Limbo is really all about me.  Methinks you are the one deadset in your reading ways.

Freeze?  Everyone is already stopped by the Cataclysm.  Icewave?  A bit more useful. Snowglobe?  Covered.  Avalanche?  Good luck getting enough enemies in range to make the price tag worth it; nice emergency button for when Cataclysm goes down though.

When I decide to bring Khora or Mesa to a defence I have no problem.  When I bring EV Trinity it's kinda pointless--but I usually bring good weapons with her because I'm support and it's fine.  Alas, damage output will top out and we'll have to leave; unlike when I bring Octavia, who has a longer duration than Khora anyways.

 

 

 

play limbo a lot and i thought initially that people would leave or get annoyed at me taking all the kills but i was pleasantly surprised to see no hate spam in team chat telling me to get good and learn to warframe in fact i found that my powers didn't hinder my allies at all (unless they didn't understand my abilities and tried to kill stuff outside the rift from in the rift) my teammates would kill anything in the rift that wasn't dead already then run around leaving the rift quite regularly to kill things not yet in the rift they don't always use a million and one abilities but they definitely put their weapons to use

Discouraging cooperative play? I disagree

Discouraging strategic selection of a frame to fit the mission? Perhaps but really just for small tilesets like defense even then there's still some that work better than others

 

I use a limbo modded primarily for range and duration so on defense it takes up most the map for about a minute at a time stasis keeping them still while me and my teammates run around killing the enemies where they stand (or float if they're jumping 😂)

 

the energy gain over the minute totals to greater or equal than the energy spent casting and recasting his abilities however his skillset isn't great at survival kuva fortress sees into the rift and damages him (somehow) making him much less useful there

In short he's best for defense missions provided he has enough energy and duration to recast consistently but he requires other stuff to be deadly on his own (i recommend the drakgoon as it can pierce cover and has variable spread) but he's far outclassed by frames like nidus when it comes to survival or when using the rift to escape danger isn't an option

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8 hours ago, MiyukiHaruka said:

Limbo CAN be great but at the same time the worst. this is because of the same abilities in question. its the amount of players that use him in a bad way that gets limbo hated. even if DE did tweak limbo's ability to be more team friendly, we still have to deal with the awful color choices and effects of player choices, still have to roll in and out of the rift to "adapt" to a limbo player, and still just have to accept the fact that MAJORITY of the limbo users are just leeching by staying in the rift to not take dmg while the rest of the team does all the work (specially in survival arbitration)

Yeah his ability can sometimes get out of hand i accidentally trolled(?) My team once on the planes doing an armoured vault thinking the datamass was in the terminal i started my usual combo of cataclysm stasis then after a couple of minutes i noticed we were still there 😅😅

i don't leech with limbo but i tend to keep to my bubble (which i cast over the target in defense modes) my reasoning being i literally die every minute outside the rift due to no health or shield mods plus the fact that the enemy has to enter the bubble to reach the target which they're trying to destroy

and i have a nidus loadout for survival and capture types (or just xp grinding for a weapon)

Quote

 

Edited by (XB1)Darthgollum 01
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2 hours ago, (XB1)Darthgollum 01 said:

 

I use a limbo modded primarily for range and duration so on defense it takes up most the map for about a minute at a time stasis keeping them still while me and my teammates run around killing the enemies where they stand (or float if they're jumping 😂)

that's one of the reason why limbo get both hate n love. yes you did stop enemies from ever getting very close to the target but you also created more work for them to kill enemies and finish the wave faster. i would prefer that the field is just big enough to fit limbo himself and the defense target (about a 10m-15m bubble is ok). sadly only a a handful of players do that.

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On 2018-10-19 at 3:58 PM, LuckyCharm said:

I have to agree with the points on the defensive abilities not meshing with him.  Primarily im a loki player so im regularly disarming things and woth the augment they fight eachother,  except when limbo is there. He holds them stationary so all the grouping or damage theyd do to eachother is negated.  Also since loki has no other offensive abilities youre always stuck running from enemy to enemy smacking them

This is a very similar discussion to people complaining about powerful nukers such as saryn and volt.  The problem is not a lack of synergy, it's that he is already doing your CC job better than you. The solution to that is not a rework its a nerf.

3 hours ago, MysticDragonMage said:

i'm honestly up for another limbo rework with a lot less "2nd dimension banishment" gameplay. because A MAJORITY does not like it when they cant kill things even if the mission is easier with these enemies banished to the rift.

Leave the Limbo in Limbo!  Seriously it's his whole thing, you might as well delete him if your going to do that. The only change I'd abide is making it easier for allies to slip in an out of the rift. E.g a dodge roll near a rifted enemy puts you in the rift and a roll in the rift puts you out.

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23 minutes ago, Solarsyphon said:

This is a very similar discussion to people complaining about powerful nukers such as saryn and volt.  The problem is not a lack of synergy, it's that he is already doing your CC job better than you. The solution to that is not a rework its a nerf.

Leave the Limbo in Limbo!  Seriously it's his whole thing, you might as well delete him if your going to do that. The only change I'd abide is making it easier for allies to slip in an out of the rift. E.g a dodge roll near a rifted enemy puts you in the rift and a roll in the rift puts you out.

then lets say limbo and his allies should be the only ones that can enter the rift. make his first ability a quick "rift tear" summon where himself and allies can go through to enter the rift.

i just dont think players like it when there are so many actions to take in order to damage banished enemies or how they have to understand limbo so much in order to work with him. you could ask limbo to banish you, but it is so much easier to ask limbo NOT to banish enemies at all. in other words, i dont think the banishing system works for, not specifically a co-operative game, but a "casual" co-operative experience.

Edited by MysticDragonMage
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17 hours ago, MysticDragonMage said:

i'm honestly up for another limbo rework with a lot less "2nd dimension banishment" gameplay. because A MAJORITY does not like it when they cant kill things even if the mission is easier with these enemies banished to the rift.

out of the 100s missions i did, i count about 5-10 where there was actually a good limbo player. in terms of cc i'd prefer if the cc can pull enemies together, not freeze em in place and put em in another dimension where you have to go to that dimension just to kill em. there are other warframes that can freeze enemies in place but at least you dont need to go into a rift do do that.

on a side note, when its kuva flood and a limbo uses his massive bubble, there are time i leave the guardians alone and watch em chase that limbo, they are immuse to the bubble anyways even when disarmed hehehehe

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On 2018-10-19 at 11:01 AM, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

Freeze?  Everyone is already stopped by the Cataclysm.  Icewave?  A bit more useful. Snowglobe?  Covered.  Avalanche?  Good luck getting enough enemies in range to make the price tag worth it; nice emergency button for when Cataclysm goes down though.

What he is trying to say is that this problem of being overshadowed is nothing new to warframe and an inherent risk to co-op play. This can happen to any frame and in any squad. If I bring any dps frame to a mission which is not saryn/volt/Octavia/equinox and one of these are present, my purpose is limited or gone. If I bring a cc frame like corroding barrage hydroid or terrify nekros or nyx, or petrify atlas, and my squad has a better one, then I'm beat. Same with support and other frame classes. It's even more likely if one happens to be a mid level player with an imperfect build. The majority of players who encounter this adjust in that mission, or take a set squad. It's never gonna not happen in warframe.

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17 hours ago, MysticDragonMage said:

then lets say limbo and his allies should be the only ones that can enter the rift. make his first ability a quick "rift tear" summon where himself and allies can go through to enter the rift.

i just dont think players like it when there are so many actions to take in order to damage banished enemies or how they have to understand limbo so much in order to work with him. you could ask limbo to banish you, but it is so much easier to ask limbo NOT to banish enemies at all. in other words, i dont think the banishing system works for, not specifically a co-operative game, but a "casual" co-operative experience.

 

 

His 1 is useless when you have his 4 unlocked as for his 3 triggering banish i use his 4 then 2 then (rarely) 3 meaning there's a huge bubble for players to stand in and shoot the newly banished enemies from safely

also i was thinking earlier...this topic is about how limbos 4 doesn't synergise with other frames well

Mag available literally from the very start has pull which can drag enemies from outside the rift into the rift dealing damage in the process damaging again when they hit the rift and im sure she isn't the only one with an ability that displaces enemies i know for a fact that there's a mod that allows players to create a shockwave from a heavy landing "heavy impact" it both damages and knocks down enemies caught in the wave not an ability i know but still has an effect and relates to the frame not a weapon

Im looking at banshees 1 rn and its a push basically

Hydroids 4 and nidus 2 both pull enemies to a point which could pull them in to cataclysm or bring em in range before its cast

Harrows 1 chains a number of enemies in place could be useful for anyone backing out while limbo casts cataclysm

Slightly more situational is ivaras 2 allowing her(?) To guide a heavy impact shot into an enemy knocking them in

There's more but im lazy

About the range complaint

Octavia has an ability that continuously damages enemies in a massive area (bigger than limbos cataclysm lasted probably as long though) i played a survival with another player who used octavia so i don't know the name of the ability but it covered about 3 rooms dealt a lot of damage per tic

shouldn't that be getting the hate for being so overpowered rather than something that stops enemies deals a bit of damage and little else?

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On 2018-10-19 at 12:22 AM, (PS4)NemitheNem said:

But as I got better, as I refined what I preferred to have in my frames and I explored my abilities I have begun to dislike Limbo sometimes.  Or rather, I've become discouraged

Do you want to run a Frost? If the Limbo has a bigger range than you your Snowglobe is basically useless.  Avalanche?  Stasis.  Octavia?  Gotta put that mallet outside the Cataclysm.  Another Limbo?  Welp. You get the idea.

How's this different to a Frost - Gara? Frost - Frost?  Gara - Gara? Gara - Octavia? Frost - Khora? Gara - Khora? Welp. You get the idea. 

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On 2018-10-30 at 1:30 AM, MiyukiHaruka said:

limbo player, and still just have to accept the fact that MAJORITY of the limbo users are just leeching by staying in the rift to not take dmg while the rest of the team does all the work (specially in survival arbitration)

Source? Not your anecdotes.

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16 hours ago, (XB1)Darthgollum 01 said:

 His 1 is useless when you have his 4 unlocked

Arguable, in free form its a free knock down inside cataclysm without needing to keep reapplying stasis due to flypaper phenomenon concerning cataclysm. 

Banish only becomes "useless" in scenarios where you are completely surroundes, otherwise wide banish will knock down waves of enemies leaving them open to finisher spam/unable to attack.

 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Arguable, in free form its a free knock down inside cataclysm without needing to keep reapplying stasis due to flypaper phenomenon concerning cataclysm. 

Banish only becomes "useless" in scenarios where you are completely surroundes, otherwise wide banish will knock down waves of enemies leaving them open to finisher spam/unable to attack.

 

But if im in the rift i don't care what the enemies are doing (im assuming solo rn) cuz they can't hurt me all i need to do is make sure im safe before leaving the rift and since i don't kill everything individually my usual method of leaving the rift is via stasis cataclysm gives me the option of killing but doesn't force me to

In coop it lets my allies join and leave the rift much easier allowing them to steal- i mean join the blood bath :-P

 

Still that's just my method and you're not wrong though my shotgun makes knocking enemies for a finisher kinda pointless since it one shots most things so far and two shots just about everything else

Finisher spam? I tried spamming finishers on downed enemies it only gives me one then does regular attacks

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The problem that I see with Limbo is that he's not necessarily a bad frame but is really hard to wrap you're head around to use effectively in the majority of situations especially in teamplay. I mean I have been on missions where there was a Limbo in the team and I've randomly ended up in the rift and had to roll out of it or when enemies are in the rift and I'm out of it. It's annoying sure and can disrupt the kill speed of enemies but that doesn't make it a bad ability. It's just with the speed of most missions it's really hard to get the timing and mod/team composition down even to a select few missions. If both the player using the limbo and the other team members are familiar with working with the frame it can do great but most players can't get past the wtf do I do with this and just level it to 30 then shelve it.

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25 minutes ago, Cuchullin said:

The problem that I see with Limbo is that he's not necessarily a bad frame but is really hard to wrap you're head around to use effectively in the majority of situations especially in teamplay. I mean I have been on missions where there was a Limbo in the team and I've randomly ended up in the rift and had to roll out of it or when enemies are in the rift and I'm out of it. It's annoying sure and can disrupt the kill speed of enemies but that doesn't make it a bad ability. It's just with the speed of most missions it's really hard to get the timing and mod/team composition down even to a select few missions. If both the player using the limbo and the other team members are familiar with working with the frame it can do great but most players can't get past the wtf do I do with this and just level it to 30 then shelve it.

 

Yeah i was gonna do the same when i got him but when i levelled him to 30 and tried him out (ignoring his 1) he was actually quite good mostly for defense types though 

He does kinda seem like a frame you need a mic for in teamplay to warn when you're about to cast banish if you use his 1 or to let others prepare for cataclysm before you cast it be that pulling/pushing enemies in range or simply an Octavia casting her huge death bringer with crazy range duration and damage over time (yeah still going on about that)

As a side note limbo can do much more than just run around in the rift and using his abilities: i found he can revive players who aren't in the rift while he's in the rift making him great for reviving downed allies who are still surrounded

Might sound weird but they get the invulnerability time knockdown wave and full health and spawn energy without losing a life meaning even not using limbos abilities to freeze the enemies the newly revived player can run around blasting at the crowd using the invulnerability time and limbo (not being invisible just in the rift) can prepare to draw fire when the invulnerability runs out

All while not taking any damage as limbo mainly cuz you'll probably die if you do 😅

Edited by (XB1)Darthgollum 01
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However (before even more nerf limbo threads start appearing) he can't do everything from the rift in fact i think reviving is one of few he can't hack in the rift the terminal doesn't rift (i tried) he can't pick stuff up (like data masses for mobile defense or ayatan stars) unless they're also in the rift (using cataclysm i believe is the only way to rift em) he cant open lockers (same as terminals they don't rift) basically he can't interact with anything outside the rift unless its a downed player (not sure if he can give his secondary to the npc in rescue missions from the rift haven't really tried)

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  • Dodge button? Operator mode? Do players not understand these concepts of pushing these buttons to exit the void?
  • "/w limboplayer im leaving cause of you, i don't play with limbos in pugs "->Escape Menu-> Abort mission? Do players not understand the concept of refusing to play with someone?
  • Squad Settings -> Friends/inivite Only/Solo? Do players not understand the concept of not playing PUG matches if they dont want random players ruining their play experience?
  • Wave 5 -> Extract? do you not understand the concept of leaving a mission and not for longer if you dont like your squad mates?
  • Player->Report? Do you not understand the concept of reporting bad behavior?
  • Abilities Damage enemies across the void->IE Abilities damage enemies across the void???? Do you all not understand this concept? Do you all run mesa or harrow? cause almost every warframe can damage enemies across the void.

 

Why do game developers have to nerf and put bumpers on every game that comes out because people dont understand that not everyone is your friend? Why do players assume that every person they meet online is going to be respectful of their fragile little world? People out there are not your friends and some will not like you for little to no reason, there is nothing you can do about that, you all are already given the tools to customize your game play experience. There are literally players that do nothing but join missions to ruin them for new players.

 

This applies to Limbo the same as it applies to that "I hate Saryn and she ruins hydron for me, i might as well afk" thread same as it applies to Kora and her playyard dome, same applies to Gara and her giant glass wall i cant shoot out of that everyone says i can.

 

I need a limbo in most of my missions so i can use the energy of the void, Instead of you sticking your hand in a dark box and complaining about getting stung by some random, how about you go to recruiting tab and type "LFG anyone but limbo" and find a friend. the limbo haters clearly are pugs that just join random matches and if it was your friends or clan doing it to you then maybe you need to find new friends or a new clan.....

 

Edited by Dabnician
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On 2018-10-30 at 1:30 AM, MiyukiHaruka said:

that MAJORITY of the limbo users are just leeching by staying in the rift to not take dmg while the rest of the team does all the work

if you truly believe a teammate is not contributing to the mission and is intentionally doing this then you your self have the power to click on their name and then click "Report player". The developer has the Analytics to be able to look up what mission the player was in with you and what they were doing and they can take action accordingly.

Otherwise your just spouting out random conjecture.

When you see a drunk getting into his car do you call the police and report him, or you can say something like "all people that drink should be put in jail even responsible drinkers" and just let him go on his way, down a highway to continue their reckless behavior.

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What he/she said lol within the game limbo is perfectly fine as is players will misuse him/misunderstand him at first but players misusing him (trolling and leeching etc) should be reported if they do so consistently throughout a match (we all make mistakes so don't report at the first little incident) 

 

I use limbo as a support character and experiment with his powers combining them with other frames (some via specters others via players)

Channelling abilities work well with the rift (naturally) but also things like octavias range dot thing

the abilities of my mag specter works interdimensionally (mag inside cataclysm casts pull on enemy outside cataclysm pulls them in

She casts her 3 a little later same place cataclysm still active it restores my shields and destroys enemy armour of both enemies in and out the rift

Could just be specters but from the previous message i think frame abilities don't care for the rift they work regardless (though i wasn't aware of it before as im usually limbo) 

My point being de has already balanced the frames during testing and for ages after release they're aware of any problems that exist and have implemented a solution (report trollers and afkers abilities working regardless of the rift etc etc) 

 

Also you said the snow globe was dwarfed by limbos cataclysm while that may be true they're functionally different limbo creates a pocket dimension that (when used with his 2) freezes enemy projectiles and enemies (all resuming their trajectory when stasis ends) snow globe absorbs damage then explodes dealing a bunch of that damage back to the enemies

Cast that towards the end of cataclysm or stasis or even both and when one runs out the bullets resume their trajectory straight to the snowglobe preparing it to deal tons of dmg when it explodes

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