Removing mandatory mods, and Focus for Weapons/Warframes

[Xarteros]

Idea: Removing Mandatory Mods:

Bring back the old skill tree. Pre-dating our mod cards, the old system was that each weapon or warframe had a 'skill tree' with nodes to improve stats or abilities. Even at max rank, you couldn't select each and every one of them, so it gave a bit of a uniqueness to each player's arsenal. Functionally, you would get 15 points to spend on nodes, or 30 with a Catalyst/Reactor. To make the tree compact, you could make several of the nodes have 3 ranks, even if there are multiple of the same node (for instance, having two Damage nodes that each have 3 ranks, for a total of 6 points)

Secondly, remove mandatory mods. Ideally, I'd remove all damage and multishot mods, and I would also perhaps scale down all crit mods slightly, but add nodes for adding BASE crit value to weapons via the skill tree. For Warframes, I would suggest a similar downscaling of Health/Armour/Energy/Shield stats, and make nodes on the tree for better base stats.

Note: When I say that the mods get downscaled, I mean that an 'average' pick of nodes for your weapon/warframe should achieve the same result of stats as the current mods/stats give. However, the nodes from the skill tree would allow players to further diversify their play style to suit their needs.

Idea: Focus for Weapons/Warframes:

With the skill trees re-established, there is now room to establish a method of enhancing weapons and warframes beyond the norm. When DE first started talking about Focus, it was the vague 'end game' way for us to show dedication to our favourite weapons and warframes. With that, I suggest adding additional 'overflow' points for reaching XP milestones from using the item at R30. As Forma is already a method of increasing effective power, I don't think XP gained during re-leveling should count. This would make it so only XP gained while the item is AT R30 counts towards the additional points.

Secondly, I suggest that 'Focus nodes' be added to the trees, beyond the normal nodes. Requiring these new overflow points to unlock, they would be a more substantial way of further diversifying your equipment. For weapons, there could be various forms of augments beyond simple stats. Rifle weapons might, for instance, have a node that grants the weapon a scope (or adds an additional zoom layer to the existing scope). As another example, Warframes could have new ability augments as nodes, giving DE a chance to change up the abilities of existing frames (such as swapping Valkyr's Hysteria claws to instead use her Ripline as an Exalted Whip weapon, or a Kubrow version of Khora's Kavat).

To prevent cheesing, the only XP that can be used to reach the milestones and earn overflow points has to come from usage, based directly off damage dealt to enemies (with a small bonus for headshots and killing blows). No Tenno Affinity sharing can apply, and it needs to be based directly off the damage the weapon itself deals (not factoring in buffs like Vex Armour or Rhino Roar). Simply, if you use an ability to boost damage by 100%, the weapon only gets 50% of the XP for the damage it deals. To compensate lower tier weapons and weaker warframes, the XP your weapon earns beyond R30 should be affected by a multiplier deriving from the weapon's strength (Like the Riven disposition, but for EACH variant of a weapon, making primes/vandal/wraith etc treated separately to their regular counterparts). The weaker the weapon, the more XP it gains per unit of damage. That way, someone leveling up a Lato would earn a similar amount of XP to someone leveling up a Euphona Prime, making it a matter of how much it's USED rather than how much it kills.

Ultimately, the goal is for players who just love the feel of a weapon or Warframe to be able to take it beyond the same old meta builds. Generalists might have a few overflow points in their 'top ten' stuff, but a specialist would really shine when it comes to their favourite 1-2 things.

Please discuss ways to improve/streamline this idea, or alternate ideas to allow further development of existing items for dedicated players.

[KennBone]

common.. again this kind of topic... and the answerd is NOT from vast moyority of players... if u dont like dont use them.. no need to remove a  thing in game wich actually ppl love it.. no need something like skill tree... with mods we got enougth " use this.. use that ". 

[Gabbynaru]

Well, at least you didn't ask for Path of Exile's skill tree. But, yeah... no, thanks. I enjoy being a god.

[Genitive]

I'm generally against removing mandatory mods because they represent player's progression through the game, which is generally a good thing. However, I would get rid of most, if not all, multishot mods and buff base damage mods to compensate. That way power level would stay more or less the same and there would be place for more builds diversity.

Additional trees and systems will just overcomplicate the game, when you can just improve the existing ones.

If you want to have something to work on beyond rank 30 I suggest expanding current focus trees. Remove capacity, because it is an unnecessary focus sink, and add various nodes that would improve your performance with weapons and warframes. You already have a few, such as Madurai's damage increase, so why not go further? You can have bonuses to holster speed, reloads, regenerating energy per headshot, adding overshields, whatever. 

[bad4youLT]

34 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Well, at least you didn't ask for Path of Exile's skill tree. But, yeah... no, thanks. I enjoy being a god.

I would love PoE skill tree for focus , what would be nuty as long as nodes are just single upgrades instead of mod like levels

 

[ChronoPhX]

8 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Well, at least you didn't ask for Path of Exile's skill tree. But, yeah... no, thanks. I enjoy being a god.

How would it interfere with you "being a god" if they rework the weapons so that the damage of the mods would be baked in? It would open up more possibilities to create interesting and unique mods that alter the behavior of the weapons and not "use these mods on almost every single weapon and on others you can slightly deviate".

[Gabbynaru]

2 minutes ago, ChronoPhX said:

How would it interfere with you "being a god" if they rework the weapons so that the damage of the mods would be baked in? It would open up more possibilities to create interesting and unique mods that alter the behavior of the weapons and not "use these mods on almost every single weapon and on others you can slightly deviate".

You do know they can make those mods without baking in Serration, right? Or do you just feel that those mods would be sh*ttier than Serration, and therefore you wouldn't use them. In which case, what you're suggesting is worsening the modding system we currently have just so that you can use that niche mod that no one cares about without feeling bad for losing a nukeworth of damage per second.

Frankly, I'll take my nukeworth of damage per second mod over... something else, because that nukeworth of damage per seconds feels like I've been rewarded for my investment in the game. A mod that makes me shoot flowers or makes my sniper rifle shoot targeting beacons for the orbital laser rather than bullets is kind of the opposite of that.

[ChronoPhX]

29 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

You do know they can make those mods without baking in Serration, right? Or do you just feel that those mods would be sh*ttier than Serration, and therefore you wouldn't use them. In which case, what you're suggesting is worsening the modding system we currently have just so that you can use that niche mod that no one cares about without feeling bad for losing a nukeworth of damage per second.

Frankly, I'll take my nukeworth of damage per second mod over... something else, because that nukeworth of damage per seconds feels like I've been rewarded for my investment in the game. A mod that makes me shoot flowers or makes my sniper rifle shoot targeting beacons for the orbital laser rather than bullets is kind of the opposite of that.

The mods I have in mind would be worse than serration by definition of them being horizontal progression and not vertical. Look at how the Kitguns are made... Wouldnt it be more fun if you could get mods that "Increase magazine size but increase reload time"? Thats a choice... not "Do you want 150% more damage?", Of course I do, but at that point its not really a choice now is it?

You can still get the feel of progression from putting in time into the game and your weapon, using mods for that is not the only way.

What makes you so afraid of them baking in mandatory mods if you can have the same thing after they rework it? If you are so afraid of them changing mods, would you be alright with having a different window all together for those side-grades? Same S#&$ different packaging.

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, ChronoPhX said:

What makes you so afraid of them baking in mandatory mods if you can have the same thing after they rework it? If you are so afraid of them changing mods, would you be alright with having a different window all together for those side-grades? Same S#&$ different packaging.

Because I know DE, and I know their idea of baking the mods in will be "We remove serration and each primary gets a 50% damage increase" instead of 165%... unless they somehow also think adding some arbitrary ways of gaining that extra 50% is somehow a good idea, and frankly, I feel they will.

And, I dunno, maybe this is a different point of you contrary to yours, but  having these few mods that I just know will be there on most weapons kind of make it more fun to make a powerful weapon that suits my needs. Having 4 slots to make Arca Plasmor not reload in the amount of time it takes to brew good tea was actually quite fun to figure out. If I had all 8 mod slots available, I would have just dumped all the reload mods I had on it and called it a day. No thought, no planning, no weighting of risks and questioning my terrible builds. But this strange lockdown just makes it fun to play around with weapon mods for me, and having those slots suddenly freed would, for me, turn it into what you are saying, mindless copying and pasting of builds from one weapon to another.

And heck, then we'd just end up with other mandatory mods. If basic damage mods are baked in, then elemental damage mods are going to be decreed as mandatory. Or maybe multishot. Or both. So we'd just be in the same place, with even fewer options to mess around with. That's kinda how I view it.

[SaiTatter]

9 hours ago, Xarteros said:

Idea: Removing Mandatory Mods:

Bring back the old skill tree. Pre-dating our mod cards, the old system was that each weapon or warframe had a 'skill tree' with nodes to improve stats or abilities. Even at max rank, you couldn't select each and every one of them, so it gave a bit of a uniqueness to each player's arsenal. Functionally, you would get 15 points to spend on nodes, or 30 with a Catalyst/Reactor. To make the tree compact, you could make several of the nodes have 3 ranks, even if there are multiple of the same node (for instance, having two Damage nodes that each have 3 ranks, for a total of 6 points)

Secondly, remove mandatory mods. Ideally, I'd remove all damage and multishot mods, and I would also perhaps scale down all crit mods slightly, but add nodes for adding BASE crit value to weapons via the skill tree. For Warframes, I would suggest a similar downscaling of Health/Armour/Energy/Shield stats, and make nodes on the tree for better base stats.

Note: When I say that the mods get downscaled, I mean that an 'average' pick of nodes for your weapon/warframe should achieve the same result of stats as the current mods/stats give. However, the nodes from the skill tree would allow players to further diversify their play style to suit their needs.

Idea: Focus for Weapons/Warframes:

With the skill trees re-established, there is now room to establish a method of enhancing weapons and warframes beyond the norm. When DE first started talking about Focus, it was the vague 'end game' way for us to show dedication to our favourite weapons and warframes. With that, I suggest adding additional 'overflow' points for reaching XP milestones from using the item at R30. As Forma is already a method of increasing effective power, I don't think XP gained during re-leveling should count. This would make it so only XP gained while the item is AT R30 counts towards the additional points.

Secondly, I suggest that 'Focus nodes' be added to the trees, beyond the normal nodes. Requiring these new overflow points to unlock, they would be a more substantial way of further diversifying your equipment. For weapons, there could be various forms of augments beyond simple stats. Rifle weapons might, for instance, have a node that grants the weapon a scope (or adds an additional zoom layer to the existing scope). As another example, Warframes could have new ability augments as nodes, giving DE a chance to change up the abilities of existing frames (such as swapping Valkyr's Hysteria claws to instead use her Ripline as an Exalted Whip weapon, or a Kubrow version of Khora's Kavat).

To prevent cheesing, the only XP that can be used to reach the milestones and earn overflow points has to come from usage, based directly off damage dealt to enemies (with a small bonus for headshots and killing blows). No Tenno Affinity sharing can apply, and it needs to be based directly off the damage the weapon itself deals (not factoring in buffs like Vex Armour or Rhino Roar). Simply, if you use an ability to boost damage by 100%, the weapon only gets 50% of the XP for the damage it deals. To compensate lower tier weapons and weaker warframes, the XP your weapon earns beyond R30 should be affected by a multiplier deriving from the weapon's strength (Like the Riven disposition, but for EACH variant of a weapon, making primes/vandal/wraith etc treated separately to their regular counterparts). The weaker the weapon, the more XP it gains per unit of damage. That way, someone leveling up a Lato would earn a similar amount of XP to someone leveling up a Euphona Prime, making it a matter of how much it's USED rather than how much it kills.

Ultimately, the goal is for players who just love the feel of a weapon or Warframe to be able to take it beyond the same old meta builds. Generalists might have a few overflow points in their 'top ten' stuff, but a specialist would really shine when it comes to their favourite 1-2 things.

Please discuss ways to improve/streamline this idea, or alternate ideas to allow further development of existing items for dedicated players.

Some of your ideas are quite interesting. What I'm imagining is the addition of the skill tree perks on top of the current mod system but with wuite some changes. For example the perks should be only pure damage/base health/energy/shield /armor improvements and they should replace the current mandatory mods like crit, multi, vitality..etc. Also perks could be unlocked by doing something close to riven unveiling. That would be pretty neat. The only mods that should remain should be the elem ones and the most unused ones like increased speed and all kinds of manuevering ones.

[Tyreaus]

10 hours ago, Genitive said:

mandatory mods ... represent player's progression through the game

I have to take issue with this specific idea for a brief moment. If mandatory mods are a representation of player progress, they're so stupendously limited that, I dare say, they're one of the worst measures of player progress imaginable. As far as I know, you can get and max them before the Second Dream quest, even in effective potato'd and forma'd builds. You finish the measure of progress long before reaching any semblance of "end game". It's contradictory.

I won't say "we should drop mandatory mods" because, despite my personal preference to make the modding system for modding rather than linear buffing, most people do still want them and I find little point to beating a brick wall without something at least interesting to say. But this particular rationale just irks me.

(Not you personally, @Genitive - just the idea. You seem decently cool. Had to quote you for the phrasing.)

[Genitive]

6 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

I have to take issue with this specific idea for a brief moment. If mandatory mods are a representation of player progress, they're so stupendously limited that, I dare say, they're one of the worst measures of player progress imaginable. As far as I know, you can get and max them before the Second Dream quest, even in effective potato'd and forma'd builds. You finish the measure of progress long before reaching any semblance of "end game". It's contradictory.

I won't say "we should drop mandatory mods" because, despite my personal preference to make the modding system for modding rather than linear buffing, most people do still want them and I find little point to beating a brick wall without something at least interesting to say. But this particular rationale just irks me.

(Not you personally, @Genitive - just the idea. You seem decently cool. Had to quote you for the phrasing.)

Maybe I should have specified it as early- to mid-game progression because of the reasons you stated. Other that that, I can't disagree, really. Progression through mods is limited. 

To expand on my previous post – it is better to have a progression through mandatory mods (even if it can be finished quickly) and then move to focus (which could be built upon like I mentioned earlier), rather than have nothing to make players feel stronger and then get bombarded by multiple trees to improve everything in every direction. Having multiple systems might sound nice, but in the end it just oversaturates the game with unnecessary stuff. 

Even mod progression could be expanded. Just take missions we currently have, such as ESO, add a new material to farm there that would allow us to upgrade mod quality for more power. I saw someone on the forums suggest making ESO similar to rifts in Diablo 3, which is not a bad idea.

I hope I make sense.

[Tyreaus]

48 minutes ago, Genitive said:

To expand on my previous post – it is better to have a progression through mandatory mods (even if it can be finished quickly) and then move to focus (which could be built upon like I mentioned earlier), rather than have nothing to make players feel stronger and then get bombarded by multiple trees to improve everything in every direction. Having multiple systems might sound nice, but in the end it just oversaturates the game with unnecessary stuff. 

Even mod progression could be expanded. Just take missions we currently have, such as ESO, add a new material to farm there that would allow us to upgrade mod quality for more power. I saw someone on the forums suggest making ESO similar to rifts in Diablo 3, which is not a bad idea.

I feel like we can garnish similar progression with the other mods as a collective. There's the 'problem' of "if we remove Serration, we'd just get other mandatory mods with the 90 and 60/60 elemental mods". But, realistically, they're not mandatory, at least not in the same sense: status builds will tend toward 60/60s, not 90s, and which elements are chosen can depend on factions and weapons. Together, they'd become the new "mandatory mods" and serve the same progression purpose as the flat damage mods (I'd argue they do it a little better because at least some of those mods are literally not acquirable until end game), but their inclusion isn't so universal. I mean, how many build / weapon reviews have something like: "Hornet Strike for damage, Barrel Diffusion for multishot, Lethal Torrent for more multishot and some fire rate"?

I can't comment a lot on either Focus or enhanced mod progression. I like the ideas for the increased build diversity and greater emphasis on the Focus system, but 1. I barely use spoiler mode and have stuck with Naramon just because and 2. DE wants to balance things around Sortie levels, so too much power creep (esp. in the mod system) might be a no-go. If you trade off multishot mods like you suggested, though...

Edited November 26, 2018 by Tyreaus

[MasterBurik]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

I feel like we can garnish similar progression with the other mods as a collective. There's the 'problem' of "if we remove Serration, we'd just get other mandatory mods with the 90 and 60/60 elemental mods". But, realistically, they're not mandatory, at least not in the same sense: status builds will tend toward 60/60s, not 90s, and which elements are chosen can depend on factions and weapons. Together, they'd become the new "mandatory mods" and serve the same progression purpose as the flat damage mods (I'd argue they do it a little better because at least some of those mods are literally not acquirable until end game), but their inclusion isn't so universal. I mean, how many build / weapon reviews have something like: "Hornet Strike for damage, Barrel Diffusion for multishot, Lethal Torrent for more multishot and some fire rate"?

If we go down that road, I'd prefer to see a portion of the weapon mod pool split into "Utility Mods" and a pair of the Mod Slots split exclusively for such use. Freeing them up for two more damage mods (assuming multi-shot follows alongside damage) is just pushing the problem down the line.

Edited November 26, 2018 by MasterBurik

[Xarteros]

On 2018-11-26 at 1:07 PM, MasterBurik said:

If we go down that road, I'd prefer to see a portion of the weapon mod pool split into "Utility Mods" and a pair of the Mod Slots split exclusively for such use. Freeing them up for two more damage mods (assuming multi-shot follows alongside damage) is just pushing the problem down the line.

The way to counter making elemental damage mods the new 'mandatory' mods would be if they didn't actually boost damage at all, but merely converted a portion of your damage into that damage type. Regular damage would need to be balanced to compensate, but it'd mean that you just mod your weapons for the sake of achieving the type of damage you want, and you progress through the tree to determine how much damage you want. Then again, that could potentially imbalance crit-focused builds, unless DE change how statuses work to keep the damage balance shifted towards status chance (like finally giving us red status effects or something).

Ultimately, I want everything to do the same damage it does now, but without having to waste slots on mods that you use in every single build. It's repetitive, boring, and I don't know a single person who actually likes relying on the same old mods (apparently apart from some of you here on the forums).
 

On 2018-11-25 at 11:29 PM, Genitive said:

-Snip-

Additional trees and systems will just overcomplicate the game, when you can just improve the existing ones.

If you want to have something to work on beyond rank 30 I suggest expanding current focus trees. Remove capacity, because it is an unnecessary focus sink, and add various nodes that would improve your performance with weapons and warframes. You already have a few, such as Madurai's damage increase, so why not go further? You can have bonuses to holster speed, reloads, regenerating energy per headshot, adding overshields, whatever. 

Overcomplication is a bit of an issue, but DE could work on merging some of the systems to reduce the impact and streamline it all. For instance, in the old tree, mod slots were just nodes you could unlock like any of the stat nodes. By removing mandatory mods, you reduce the core requirement of slots, and you could integrate it all into one system. Instead of 8 slots, for instance, you could start with 6, but have an extra 2 slots as unlockable nodes in the tree. To keep the system familiar to other games, you could put in more, smaller trees (like talent trees in many MMORPGs etc), with the focus nodes simply becoming an extension of those trees.

To the notion of expanding current focus trees to include more weapon/warframe based benefits, I have to disagree. The original concept of Focus was meant to be a reward for players using their favourite gear, but each plan got scrapped and redone until we got the current system which has nothing to do with our favourite gear at all. Making the bonuses part of the normal focus trees just means you reload faster with every weapon, or regen energy on headshots from every weapon. It doesn't make you stand out in any way for your dedication to your most favourite gear, and that's the element that I want to bring back to life. The dream is to make it viable to use whatever warframe or weapon feels fun for you, not just whichever one is the strongest meta of the time. You use it because you like it, and the more you use it; the stronger it gets. Eventually, it becomes useful no matter what it started out as, and it makes you stand out for your dedication. Any chump can slap on some forma and copy/paste a mod build they saw online, but only a dedicated player who enjoys the gear could take it further.

I fully understand that this system or any similar iteration would most likely never enter the game. It's too much work for DE to do, rebalancing everything. It'd generate too much hate on the forums, people would quit before things settled down, and it wouldn't be interesting enough to attract new players. I just want to discuss ideas and hope that someone can suggest ways to make this sort of idea happen with as minimal impact as possible.

Boiled down, all I want is a way to make weapon/warframe loadouts be more unique to every player, and not simply be meta builds of the 'most ideal' stats; and a way to reward players for their dedication to their favourite gear. I'll take it in any form it comes in.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Xarteros

[blackheartstar_pc]

On 2018-11-25 at 1:13 PM, Gabbynaru said:

And heck, then we'd just end up with other mandatory mods. If basic damage mods are baked in, then elemental damage mods are going to be decreed as mandatory. Or maybe multishot. Or both. So we'd just be in the same place, with even fewer options to mess around with. That's kinda how I view it.

This is exactly how it would happen and the cycle would continue till all mods were removed because there will always be a best.

[XenMaster]

Actually i want to see mods that can be combined into single mod. It worked like riven, but with limitation;

 

Serration + Split Chamber into single mod. But equipping Serration and/or Split Chamber to the weapon are disabled if the combined mod is equipped.

 

It worked as it prevent players to put two Serration mods into a weapon. This function should give us more spaces for utility mods.

 

Although people would go for this

 

Braton Prime build

 

Serration + Split Chamber 1#,

Shred + Heavy Caliber 2#,

Toxin + electric dual stat 3#,

Teat + cold dual stat 4#,

90% electric + toxin dmg 5#,

90% heat + cold dmg 6#, 

Riven +CritDMG +CritChance -Zoom 7# (hybrid build of braton prime),

 

Scrap this idea, this is bad.

 

Actually i wanted to see utility mod slots for all weapons, mainly for more ammos and range (beam weapons).

 

In which DE have to rework every non mandatory mods like those Punch Through mods, Zoom, Ammo Mutations, Ammo Maximum, Ammo Magazine etc.

 

In this "more slots idea", i want a second modding system thats only for non damage mods (no Serration can be equipped into the Utility Modding.

[---Merchant---]

Welcome friend,i see you came back from call of duty feeling like you can share your non unique ideas.
As much as i agree to remove things like "165% damage"   and just bake it in all weapons,I do not want this to have call of duty simpleton upgrade trees with silencers and scopes of 10 different colors. 

If there were no mods in this game,i would just play battlefield.

If path of exile had no skill tree,i d play diablo 2. (no one shall play do you have phones game)

[Loza03]

I agree with the intent behind this more than the actual suggestion. Mostly because having a weapons build be entirely limited to a skill tree would be more limiting, not less limiting, since each individual weapon would pretty much have their setups built for them.

Possibly this could work in a very adjusted form. All the existing 'mandatory' mods are converted into 'perks' applied to a weapon through points gained from ranking it up, reset upon forma. They could be acquired in the same way as mods are now, just for the sake of progression - maybe they even get ranked up through endo. That way you can still customise what element you want your weapon to work with, the damage buffs, multishot etc through that, and leave the main modding freer. Space on the perks could possibly be more limited in order to prevent too much power creep. For example, maybe with a slight buff to each to compensate, you can't slot both Split Chamber and Lethal Torrent, instead having to choose between the greater multi-shot or the greater fire rate.

Edit: I think that right now, Warframes wouldn't need this, purely because there's so many mandatory mods for them that they're actually competing with each other which allows build diversity to prosper with them as well. Survivability over min-maxing and so forth. I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I don't think it's as necessary from a build diversity perspective.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Loza03
Warframes.