Proc-gen level design in WF should die (except in the Void)

[Zoretor]

I know, I know, this is a controversial statement, where many will feel that they like "levels to always be different", but I have what I feel is a strong counterargument to that way of thinking, and it is thus:

They're really not.

Procedural generation of levels is clunky, incoherent, confusing, and worst of all B O R I N G.
It makes players focus solely on the waypoint for navigation, thereby mosly handwaving away the craft of the environments.
Going into these levels over and over and having some rooms shift around does not make it: "Wow, this is a totally new experience!". It's the exact same experience but with the frikkin' rooms shifted around. Period. Big whoop.
Rooms aren't even rotated! They're always the same! They could't even impleen
The worst offender is the god damned repeating tiles!!!

Proc-gen levels are old hat. They used to be a thing (and still are in some "rogue-likes/lites" and such), but now we have games that are kinda competing with Warframe for that "full-time-forever game" space (Anthem, Destiny, even Apex Legends). Those games don't use proc-gen levels, but rather carefully designed and hand-crafted ones. De used proc-gen when they started Warframe because it's cheap and easy, which was fine when they were struggling, but times, they have a-changed...
We've now seen the potential DE has for hand-crafted levels with the 2 current open worlds (PoE and Vallis), and we know that they have awesome level designers in their midst, what with the already well made tilesets, and especially the upcoming, incredibly good looking and ambient Gas City rework, so there's no doubt in my mind they could simply go the extra mile and make hand-crafted, pre-designed levels that are fluid and can maintain the flow of "ninjaquick in-and-out" mission dynamics, which I think is one of the stronger and more original features WF has going for it when compared to those other games.

So now that we all agree that DE is more than capable of doing better, here I present how it could be better with pre-designed, hand-crafted levels:

- Use all the already existing tiles. Create a design for each environment (Grineer Galleon, Corpus Ice Planet, etc.), keeping it as coherent as possible with the shape it would have. Ex: Grineer Galleons could have about 5 floors, in an oval shape when viewed from top-down. Then, interconnet the existing tiles within that guideline, adjusting doors and connections wherever necessary. It wouldn't need to be 1 to 1, but at least give it an overall "feel" of the shape.
- Make mirrored copies of some of the "connector tiles", meaning mostly corridors (but maybe certain others might make sense to do so as well).
- Pre-designate multiple insertion and extraction points. Most tilesets already have 2 different extraction tiles. Have 'em both be available at all times.
- Adjust mission parameters where necessary to adapt them to these tilesets. Ex.: Mobile Defense terminals are all over the level, in pre-designed areas. The mission randomly chooses 1 to 3 terminals that'll need to be hacked, out of all the ones in the level. Defense and Interception missions would be in a room which is already there.
- Possibility for multi-mission incursions (no, I'm not referring to PoE incursions). A Defection which leads to a Capture. A 1 terminal Mobile Defense which leads to a Rescue. A Spy which leads to a Sabotage. A Capture within a Survival. Etc.
- Uranus could be interesting in the sense that underwater sharkwing routes could be designed to provide actual shortcuts, giving some use to this painful game system.
- Gas City and Kuva Fortress in particular could be made to benefit from archwing routes, also providing shortcuts.
- Hand-crafted archwing missions would benefit greatly, if that specific Archwing Quest (hiding from Fomorian death-ray) and War Within sequences are anything to go by. 

Important note: The Void, because it functions with it's own laws of physics, or lack thereof, would make sense to stay proc-gen.

I realize Railjack, or maybe even whatever that Wolves of Saturn thing is, may just change things up so much that some of these ideas are actually implemented, or feasable, or they might become irrelevant. But still... try and imagine the creative possibilities.

C'mon DE, I know you want to...

[DeMonkey]

Given how long it's taking to remake the Gas City tileset, I can't even begin to imagine the time required to redo every single tileset in the entire game to this level.

[SneakyErvin]

I dont see a problem with proc- generated tiles, never have and probably never will. I also dont see the connection at all between a story driven rpg (Anthem), some diabloesque in space (Destiny), a F2P Battle Royale (Apex) with a horde shooter (WF).

Those interested in WF may play Anthem or Destiny, but I absolutley see no reason why WF, Anthem, or Destiny should be thretened or competing with a BR game that only attracts PvPers of a very special kind to begin with. It is kinda like saying PoE or D3 should watch out because DotA, LoL and other mobas are out there. Sure they share the isometric view and that is pretty much it.

edit: Also, non-proc- generated environments get old really really fast in grindy games, because when you've see it once you've see all it has to offer.

Edited February 14, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[PoisonHD]

Handcrafted enviorments can get stale even faster then the procedural generated ones, just for the fact that instead of it being the same tiles in a different layout, it'd be the same look, and the same layout in every single mission of that variety. That'd get old pretty quick.

[Dhrekr]

20 minutes ago, Zoretor said:

so there's no doubt in my mind they could simply go the extra mile and make hand-crafted, pre-designed levels

I just love the simplicity with which you say "go the extra mile".

DE has needed basically half a year for each PoE and Fortuna (and they spent the other half year developing other content). "Go the extra mile" and redo every single tileset in the game is going to take... Two decades?

Of course, we all agree with you. If DE could use magic and conjure up twenty years of content just by snapping their fingers, I'm sure they would.

But, failing the use of magic or of time travel, we have to be realistic. I have rarely seen a thread that proposed such a huge amount of content to be produced just by saying "come on DE just go the extra mile".

[Gabbynaru]

Honestly I prefer these. Sure, I know basically every single room in the game (bar the Kuva Fortress, I really see no reason to play there), but the fact that the layout changes constantly makes thing still stay relatively fresh. If it's just a linear corridor, then I play it, say, 5 times, and I already know everything about it and see no reason to ever return back to it if I don't like the layout. But with procedural generation, the level just stay on that neutral area where you can't like one specific layout, cause chances are, you ain't seeing it again. Same goes for the opposite, it a specific layout drives you crazy, you'll still only see it once and be done with it. So, unless DE somehow hides level designers capable of Dark Souls-like level design among their employees, chances are procedural generation is the best solution.

[Zoretor]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Given how long it's taking to remake the Gas City tileset, I can't even begin to imagine the time required to redo every single tileset in the entire game to this level.

 

55 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont see a problem with proc- generated tiles, never have and probably never will. I also dont see the connection at all between a story driven rpg (Anthem), some diabloesque in space (Destiny), a F2P Battle Royale (Apex) with a horde shooter (WF).

Those interested in WF may play Anthem or Destiny, but I absolutley see no reason why WF, Anthem, or Destiny should be thretened or competing with a BR game that only attracts PvPers of a very special kind to begin with. It is kinda like saying PoE or D3 should watch out because DotA, LoL and other mobas are out there. Sure they share the isometric view and that is pretty much it.

edit: Also, non-proc- generated environments get old really really fast in grindy games, because when you've see it once you've see all it has to offer.

 

44 minutes ago, Dhrekr said:

I just love the simplicity with which you say "go the extra mile".

DE has needed basically half a year for each PoE and Fortuna (and they spent the other half year developing other content). "Go the extra mile" and redo every single tileset in the game is going to take... Two decades?

Of course, we all agree with you. If DE could use magic and conjure up twenty years of content just by snapping their fingers, I'm sure they would.

But, failing the use of magic or of time travel, we have to be realistic. I have rarely seen a thread that proposed such a huge amount of content to be produced just by saying "come on DE just go the extra mile".

There's not much to re-do. The idea is to re-use the existing tiles. The only added work would be thinking up a layout, tweak some of the existing tiles here and there where necessary for connections, coherence and flow, and that's it.
I'm not saying re-do all of the tilesets.

I knew some of you would get hung up on the game comparison. I meant that specifically as an example of hand-crafted environment design, not about gameplay comparisons!

[Twistedsparkle]

I like the proc gen stuff
never had any issues with it

I guess I would like to have more random Variables in the tiles but thats it

also these tiles are not ordered from Ebay Im pretty sure they crafted each tile themselves and took the proc gen into consideration when doing them
saying that they are somehow "cheap" option makes me pretty pissed off how you are scoffing at developers hard work
especially when after 5 or is it 6 already years of playing this game I still keep finding cool little details in tiles I have run thousands of times

[Zoretor]

8 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Honestly I prefer these. Sure, I know basically every single room in the game (bar the Kuva Fortress, I really see no reason to play there), but the fact that the layout changes constantly makes thing still stay relatively fresh. If it's just a linear corridor, then I play it, say, 5 times, and I already know everything about it and see no reason to ever return back to it if I don't like the layout. But with procedural generation, the level just stay on that neutral area where you can't like one specific layout, cause chances are, you ain't seeing it again. Same goes for the opposite, it a specific layout drives you crazy, you'll still only see it once and be done with it. So, unless DE somehow hides level designers capable of Dark Souls-like level design among their employees, chances are procedural generation is the best solution.

See, that's the thing: That's not true. It's not true that you have a "fresh experience" because of proc-gen. Not in Warframe. You're just blitzing through random tunnels, blindly following the waypoint marker. Screw the wall paint. Who cares about that skybox, or vertical space even?...

You imply that it would be a straight corridor. No, that's not at all what I was going for, nor what I'd want. I said levels would be layed out coherently in the shape of what they represent. To give an idea, think of it like a metroidvania. Yes, like Dark Souls. It's not that hard. You just have to think of a layout, and connect the already existing tiles in an intersting layout, with shortcuts (actual useful vents!), multiple ways to get to your objective, upper and lower decks, verticality, etc.

Man, it'd be sooo much better. I can see it. You might not, but I can.

[Zoretor]

1 minute ago, Twistedsparkle said:

I like the proc gen stuff
never had any issues with it

I guess I would like to have more random Variables in the tiles but thats it

also these tiles are not ordered from Ebay Im pretty sure they crafted each tile themselves and took the proc gen into consideration when doing them
saying that they are somehow "cheap" option makes me pretty pissed off how you are scoffing at developers hard work
especially when after 5 or is it 6 already years of playing this game I still keep finding cool little details in tiles I have run thousands of times

*ppffffffsh* Gimme a break.
I wouldn't be here if I didn't value DE's work. No need to white-knight (a company with corporate interests, btw).

Yes, the tiles are beautifully hand-crafted. Which is why I'm saying to use them in a pre-designed, hand-crafted layout!

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, Zoretor said:

See, that's the thing: That's not true. It's not true that you have a "fresh experience" because of proc-gen. Not in Warframe. You're just blitzing through random tunnels, blindly following the waypoint marker. Screw the wall paint. Who cares about that skybox, or vertical space even?...

You imply that it would be a straight corridor. No, that's not at all what I was going for, nor what I'd want. I said levels would be layed out coherently in the shape of what they represent. To give an idea, think of it like a metroidvania. Yes, like Dark Souls. It's not that hard. You just have to think of a layout, and connect the already existing tiles in an intersting layout, with shortcuts (actual useful vents!), multiple ways to get to your objective, upper and lower decks, verticality, etc.

Man, it'd be sooo much better. I can see it. You might not, but I can.

Erm... not everyone rushes through missions. I'm not saying I'm not guilty of rushing, but since I only play solo, more often than not I do take my time, particularly if I'm playing without an objective in mind and just for the heck of it.

As for what you're suggesting... Metroidvania is easy to do because of the 2D space, which automatically sets the limits for you, as you can't exactly overlap maps in a more 3D maner thanks to the perspective, which means connections between areas have to happen around the previously created areas, where the free space is, whereas doing it in 3D, particularly in a tight, memorable package like the ones presented in the Soulsborne games (bar Dark Souls 2) is far more difficult to do. Not saying it can't happen in Warframe, it can, but it requires a complete overhaul of every single existing asset and room to make them unique, distinct and memorable, while still making them varied enough to make them entertaining for the infinite amount of replayability the game offers, a balance that sounds almost impossible to strike. Environmental storytelling cannot be done in such an environment, because, while cool once or twice, it will become a chore and annoyance to constantly repeat itself over and over, especially when players are forced to "backtrack" to that level because that's where they wanna play or there's a new mob there that drops something sweet and they just want that. Procedural generation takes away that possibility for environmental storytelling almost completely, and just allows the users to get down to business.

Yeah, it would be cool to have a metroidvania/soulsborne map design, but I doubt it will hold your attention for 3000+ hours seeing the same levels over and over and over again. These procedural tiles, we have no attachment to them. They're just a means to an end, as such, their existence and repetition is mitigated by the fact that they're randomly placed and completely unmemorable. If these tiles were used to tell us a great story, by the 3000 hour mark that story would be rendered meaningless, maybe we'd even hate it, because familiarity breeds contempt. That's why procedural generation is more suitable for Warframe, because, as much as we all love it still, repeating Second Dream over and over will make us hate it.

[SneakyErvin]

21 minutes ago, Zoretor said:

See, that's the thing: That's not true. It's not true that you have a "fresh experience" because of proc-gen. Not in Warframe. You're just blitzing through random tunnels, blindly following the waypoint marker. Screw the wall paint. Who cares about that skybox, or vertical space even?...

Hence why handcrafted tiles would be a straight up waste because people wouldnt stop to look at the layout to begin with. And those that do stop and look rather experience slightly different ship or facility layouts from time to time, because it gives it more a living feeling. Insertion at the exact same duct on every single ship every darn time wouldnt make sense. The enemies would eventually place heavy defenses there to counter such things. It feels more accurate that we have different insertion and extraction points as we go.

Marvel Heroes started doing static maps with their NGE project, with this they also had to change the whole system regarding movement so things went by at a slower pace so people would actually notice the work put into the environments. This was all met with fairly huge negativity and the game shut down less than a year later. Not only because of this, but it was part of the reason.

[Zoretor]

Man... if only though... I can see it so clearly...

WF wouldn't lose a thing... but it would gain a lot.

Whatever. Bye.

[peterc3]

1 hour ago, Zoretor said:

They used to be a thing (and still are in some "rogue-likes/lites" and such)

They used to be a thing, but they are also still a thing? This is supposed to be compelling?

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

Given how long it's taking to remake the Gas City tileset, I can't even begin to imagine the time required to redo every single tileset in the entire game to this level.

Obviously DE is just drawing it out. Clearly they could redo all of the tilesets into fixed levels in no time and also keep up with other content. DE has chronomages on the payroll, last I checked.

28 minutes ago, Zoretor said:

*ppffffffsh* Gimme a break.
I wouldn't be here if I didn't value DE's work. No need to white-knight (a company with corporate interests, btw).

Yes, the tiles are beautifully hand-crafted. Which is why I'm saying to use them in a pre-designed, hand-crafted layout!

1 minute ago, Zoretor said:

Man... if only though... I can see it so clearly...

WF wouldn't lose a thing... but it would gain a lot.

Whatever. Bye.

You don't value DE's work. To be more precise, you don't appreciate the work that has gone into the tileset reworks, the time necessary to do this. You want the game to look like you want it to look and people are apparently not on board with your vision.

What would Warframe gain, here?

[DeMonkey]

43 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

chronomages

Inb4 someone makes another Chronos thread fan concept.

[(PSN)santospizarro]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Hence why handcrafted tiles would be a straight up waste because people wouldnt stop to look at the layout to begin with. And those that do stop and look rather experience slightly different ship or facility layouts from time to time, because it gives it more a living feeling. Insertion at the exact same duct on every single ship every darn time wouldnt make sense. The enemies would eventually place heavy defenses there to counter such things. It feels more accurate that we have different insertion and extraction points as we go.

Marvel Heroes started doing static maps with their NGE project, with this they also had to change the whole system regarding movement so things went by at a slower pace so people would actually notice the work put into the environments. This was all met with fairly huge negativity and the game shut down less than a year later. Not only because of this, but it was part of the reason.

i think id be healthy to invenst in less predictable ai, more enemies or monsters, and things to keep the levels or tile sets intriguing like th OP said, theres nothing to keep the players on the maps, i know whats going to be insde the lockers and what is going to drop from the enemies, theres even an index for all the things aquired and scanned, i feel like much of the game is going too fast without many optional objectives and submissions or interesting enemies or loot that can be used mid-combat powerups, preview or use mods on the spot temporarily from resource and the large trees and lakes, there is no alien species or enough robots right now but its getting to be interesting , i'd want to see that there are other types of operators and that more planets and missions have their own unique rewards and culture, cetus is cool but it doesnt really have a large amount of shops or arsenal since its all locked away and freeroaming / bounties needs a reallistic boost, you can go in arch wing mode but theres not enough big enemies to contrast, its good we can use archwing guns and heavys on the floor, but the ergular enemies cant even call up any back ups or pull up any realistic emergency manouvers, i would lock down all the doors and trigger the sprinckers if you were to be the one playing a hero for their army, maybe one day we can choose to play the grineer or choose to play a scientiest of the Corpus and have our choices of warframes ba based off these factions, though am not sure how would the infected would play out, i at least pictured taht cetus wouyld get some aquaman to stop the fish slaughter since we have so many forest and no acually documented gardens with eden, food & fruit in this game is just gore, i would like to see that the cabins feature some hot tea, crew members or recruits, sinec you can already go to the releays and sign up with each of the syndicates, whats to stop them from allowing you to gain or borrow / rent weapons, men, robots, or devices, eventually prototype warframes and blueprints, lunaro and pvp is well hidden, much of the games features are in dojos and spread up.