Multishot Rework

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

Multishot is something of an oddity. Originally it was designed to simply bump up fire rate ,naturally trading off more ammo expenditure; but a bug (made feature) caused it to fire additional bullets without using additional ammo. This essentially turned it into a direct upgrade for any and all weapons. Essentially adding multishot gives an average of more damage, status chance, and critical chance. Basically you'd be crazy to NOT add in multishot to your weapons. But what if it was a bit more situational? As multishot works now, it becomes something of a nuisance that behaves as a 'free' damage bonus rather than its own defined niche. In turn it worms its way into every weapon build, making a mess out of damage tables and enemy scaling. To counter this, multishot needs some form of rework in order for it to provide a desirable bonus without making it another outright damage bonus.

The proposal is this: Create a new weapon stat known as "Proc Average" (better name pending). A weapon can normally only proc a maximum of one status effect per round, but multishot "cheats" this design by giving multiple entities per round and therefore creating more chances. This is mainly why shotguns with 100% status chance are regarded as status monsters. Basically multishot turns ordinary weapons into "pseudo-shotguns" that gain more shots per round without losing anything. However if multishot did not divide rounds fired in a specific instance but rather influence the status chance, then the only thing gained is more chances to proc status.

Example: A rifle does 100 damage and has a status chance of 100%. Without multishot, each round does 100 damage and procs a status once. Add 90% (reworked) multishot and it still does 100 damage, but now it procs one status effect with a 90% chance to proc another.

You could say that all weapons have a "Proc Average" of 1. 1 round has one chance to proc status. Adding multishot would increase that proc average, making one round have more than one chance to proc. Damage output is the same. Critical chance is unaffected. Status weapons now have a new stat geared to balance them against pure critical weapons.

Thoughts?

[Tyreaus]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

Example: A rifle does 100 damage and has a status chance of 100%. Without multishot, each round does 100 damage and procs a status once. Add 90% (reworked) multishot and it still does 100 damage, but now it procs one status effect with a 90% chance to proc another.

So how does this look for a rifle with 30% status chance, for example? Does each pellet still have 30% chance? Or is it like shotguns where the listed chance is divided among the pellets? (Rinse and repeat for, say, 50% and 80% - so we have a clearer picture of what multishot actually does)

[taiiat]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhh
so like, how Multi-Shot already is? at most it looks like you're saying your goal is to make Multi-Shot only affect Status, but not Damage or Crits.

i don't see how that is in any way an improvement for the game. making Game Mechanics less consistent and biased is exactly what causes most of the problems in the first place.
to which end, besides, Crits and Status are the biggest contributions that Multi-Shot makes in the first place. if anything at all, any adjustment to Multi-Shot would make it not change Status or Crits. but is there really any reason to? that's just removing depth to Modding but not adding anything else.

 

 

and make no mistake, Multi-Shot has always existed as a DPS Multiplier. coming back and saying 5 years later that it was supposed to be something else when it never has been, is really irrelevant to the game. it is how it is, and that's that.

[Guest]

Status already >>> Crits for high level content and this change would only nerf crit. I guess someone up there plain hates crit guns.

[Shaburanigud]

I think we should lessen the number of stats we have not increase it.
The game is already complicated as it already it is. It was a nightmare for me to learn all of that 6 months ago especially when the game lacks any useful tutorial.

I'd rather ask for something a tad more simple.

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

38 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

So how does this look for a rifle with 30% status chance, for example? Does each pellet still have 30% chance? Or is it like shotguns where the listed chance is divided among the pellets? (Rinse and repeat for, say, 50% and 80% - so we have a clearer picture of what multishot actually does)

Shotguns are really weird to begin with, as their status chance comes pre-calculated with multishot. They'd have to be slightly redone to consider this change.

Basically it would no longer be adding additional pellets, but instead add more "inputs" to the single pellet. A rifle with 30% status chance and a Proc Average of 1 (no multishot) would have a formula of (30% X 1) = 30%. However if you add in +90% multishot the formula becomes (30% X 1) + (30% X 0.9) = 30% + 27%. So if the first status roll is 30%, then a second roll is given at 27%. A rifle with 50% status is default (50% X 1) = 50%, add multishot to get (50% + 1) + (50% + 0.9) = 50% + 45%. One rolls for 50% and one rolls for 45%. 80% status chance? (80% X 1) + (80% X 0.9) = 80% + 72%

Now if you have an exceptionally high multishot of say +150% (proc average now 2.5), then the formula expands further. 30% status chance is default (30% X 1) = 30%, but with +180% multishot it becomes (30% X 1) + (30% X 1) + (30% X 0.5) = 30% + 30% + 15%. You now have two rolls at 30% odds and one roll at 15% odds. So on and so forth.

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

28 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Status already >>> Crits for high level content and this change would only nerf crit. I guess someone up there plain hates crit guns.

The main reason status beats out crit at high levels is because of Slash procs and excessive armor scaling. A status weapon without slash could do an insane amount of raw damage, but still be subpar at higher levels. Likewise a status weapon with low RoF would fall into the same trap. Overall I actually prefer cit guns simply because I don't have to wait for my target to bleed out.

[Tyreaus]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

Shotguns are really weird to begin with, as their status chance comes pre-calculated with multishot. They'd have to be slightly redone to consider this change.

Basically it would no longer be adding additional pellets, but instead add more "inputs" to the single pellet. A rifle with 30% status chance and a Proc Average of 1 (no multishot) would have a formula of (30% X 1) = 30%. However if you add in +90% multishot the formula becomes (30% X 1) + (30% X 0.9) = 30% + 27%. So if the first status roll is 30%, then a second roll is given at 27%. A rifle with 50% status is default (50% X 1) = 50%, add multishot to get (50% + 1) + (50% + 0.9) = 50% + 45%. One rolls for 50% and one rolls for 45%. 80% status chance? (80% X 1) + (80% X 0.9) = 80% + 72%

Now if you have an exceptionally high multishot of say +150% (proc average now 2.5), then the formula expands further. 30% status chance is default (30% X 1) = 30%, but with +180% multishot it becomes (30% X 1) + (30% X 1) + (30% X 0.5) = 30% + 30% + 15%. You now have two rolls at 30% odds and one roll at 15% odds. So on and so forth.

Like was said earlier, this is functionally identical to if you were to work out the math for status and multishot chances (on modded multishot specifically). If you have 100% multishot, you end up with 30% status chance on each pellet. The 0.9 multiplier on the second pellet's chance is equivalent to the proc chance multiplied by the chance to procure a second shot. If you made it such that multishot generated additional pellets inside the initial pellet, you'd have an identical effect.

I do think multishot does need a change, but...this doesn't seem to do it.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Tyreaus

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

46 minutes ago, taiiat said:

uhhhhhhhhhhhhh
so like, how Multi-Shot already is? at most it looks like you're saying your goal is to make Multi-Shot only affect Status, but not Damage or Crits.

i don't see how that is in any way an improvement for the game. making Game Mechanics less consistent and biased is exactly what causes most of the problems in the first place.
to which end, besides, Crits and Status are the biggest contributions that Multi-Shot makes in the first place. if anything at all, any adjustment to Multi-Shot would make it not change Status or Crits. but is there really any reason to? that's just removing depth to Modding but not adding anything else.

 

 

and make no mistake, Multi-Shot has always existed as a DPS Multiplier. coming back and saying 5 years later that it was supposed to be something else when it never has been, is really irrelevant to the game. it is how it is, and that's that.

Well that is the goal, but it would actually be for the better. As it stands now guns have WAY too much damage potential, hence why enemies enemies have such steep leveling curves. DE has to keep buffing enemies because Tenno keep hosing them down (looking at Orb Vallis Corpus). Taking away the damage bonus from multishot would allow DE to worry a bit less about how much Tenno keep pushing their damage ceilings.

As for crits, they already have an "over 100%" damage system. Crit chance can be pushed over 100% and allow extreme damage output. It currently rare as very few weapons have the potential to reach those heights, but its possible and even probable given enough development.

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

1 minute ago, Tyreaus said:

Like was said earlier, this is functionally identical to if you were to work out the math for status and multishot chances (on modded multishot specifically). If you have 100% multishot, you end up with 30% status chance on each pellet. The 0.9 multiplier on the second pellet's chance is equivalent to the proc chance multiplied by the chance to procure a second shot. If you made it such that multishot generated additional pellets inside the initial pellet, you'd have an identical effect.

Yes, but now we aren't getting a raw damage boost. For the sake of semantics its not "two bullets being fired at once" but now "one bullet fired with proc chances". Basically its just making light of a feature that wasn't explained but always existed, while removing an unnecessary form of raw damage.

[taiiat]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

Well that is the goal, but it would actually be for the better. As it stands now guns have WAY too much damage potential, hence why enemies enemies have such steep leveling curves. DE has to keep buffing enemies because Tenno keep hosing them down (looking at Orb Vallis Corpus). Taking away the damage bonus from multishot would allow DE to worry a bit less about how much Tenno keep pushing their damage ceilings.

Base Damage Bonuses cause a bigger difference, then. why didn't you target those Mods instead? even though targeting either is really just silly.
any reasonable solution is all Damage Mods having smaller numbers, not just creating inconsistent rules and making certain Mods useless on option A but not on option B.

consistent rules is what builds a good game.

Edited February 20, 2019 by taiiat

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

27 minutes ago, Shaburanigud said:

I think we should lessen the number of stats we have not increase it.
The game is already complicated as it already it is. It was a nightmare for me to learn all of that 6 months ago especially when the game lacks any useful tutorial.

I'd rather ask for something a tad more simple.

Well this was always technically a thing to begin with. You put on a multishot mod, and status chance increases on a depreciating scale. Essentially it would just be divorcing that specific formula and giving it its own identifiable value.

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

Base Damage Bonuses cause a bigger difference, then. why didn't you target those Mods instead? even though targeting either is really just silly.
any reasonable solution is all Damage Mods having smaller numbers, not just creating inconsistent rules and making certain Mods useless on option A but not on option B.

consistent rules is what builds a good game.

Already got a thread on that.

Really though Warframe has a ton of issues that need to be systematically addressed before everything becomes mathematically sound. It all works relatively well for now, but any attempts to "mix things up" tend to have very unstable results. Orb Vallis' beefed up Corpus units are one key example. Grineer having an bunker's worth of armor at higher levels is another. All in all this is just one key part to a much larger solution.

[Tyreaus]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

Yes, but now we aren't getting a raw damage boost. For the sake of semantics its not "two bullets being fired at once" but now "one bullet fired with proc chances". Basically its just making light of a feature that wasn't explained but always existed, while removing an unnecessary form of raw damage.

If the goal is to remove the damage boost, you could make multishot split the damage between the pellets—the same way shotguns do.

Mind, as far as the UI goes, I do feel status chance being per pellet would be a more useful indicator anyway. If we have per-pellet status chance and pellet counts listed, it's easy enough to multiply the two and figure out the chance per shot, even just by approximation.

[Xzorn]

Fixing Multishot from being a staple mod requires a lot of work and editing for pretty much every weapon in the game.

In it's simplest form we'd take the Avg Status Triggers of a weapon with multishot mods and apply that to it's base status chance. Avg Status triggers for a Rifle with 1.9 shots at base 25% Status with 60/60x2 is 1.045. If we increase the base status of the weapon by 1.9 = 47.5% we get an avg of 1.045 with 60/60x2. This however doesn't change that Crit rolls will have bigger spikes in damage even though their avg remains the same. Every single weapon needs to be reworked like this. Hence DE backed out.

You application of allowing more than one status to occur per bullet / pellet is yet another piece of a large puzzle.

[peterc3]

Want multishot to not be a staple? Make it cost more ammo, like the last proposal contained. Hell, do that plus the absurdly convoluted scheme OP proposes.

[taiiat]

31 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Want multishot to not be a staple? Make it cost more ammo, like the last proposal contained. Hell, do that plus the absurdly convoluted scheme OP proposes.

and then, what of the next most powerful Mod that takes its place?

i don't think hardly anyone knows what they actually want.

Edited February 20, 2019 by taiiat

[ShortCat]

Why such over-complicated mechanics?

Just remove bonus damage on multishot and let it only create additional pellets. Done.

Edited February 20, 2019 by ShortCat

[Rathalio]

il y a 52 minutes, ShortCat a dit :

Why such over-complicated mechanics?

Just remove bonus damage on multishot and let it only create additional pellets. Done.

It's already the case, stats wich are shown on the UI are just expectations of your dammages. If you have 90% multishot, the stats you will see on your weapon will reflect this, this also means that's the dammage you deal 90% of the time, the other 10% times  you will do less than what is shown to you. There is no dammage multiplier with multishot only an view on dammage expected with more ammo per shot are shown.

Anyway for all what is said before : multishot has no direct buff on any stats like status, crit, dammage etc.
In you UI you will see more status chances because you just have more instance of status chance proc since you shot more pellet per hit, same thing with damage, you don't do more dammage per pellet you just shot more pellets and the dammage you will see in your UI reflects a shot with all the pellets.

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

2 hours ago, Rathalio said:

It's already the case, stats wich are shown on the UI are just expectations of your dammages. If you have 90% multishot, the stats you will see on your weapon will reflect this, this also means that's the dammage you deal 90% of the time, the other 10% times  you will do less than what is shown to you. There is no dammage multiplier with multishot only an view on dammage expected with more ammo per shot are shown.

Anyway for all what is said before : multishot has no direct buff on any stats like status, crit, dammage etc.
In you UI you will see more status chances because you just have more instance of status chance proc since you shot more pellet per hit, same thing with damage, you don't do more dammage per pellet you just shot more pellets and the dammage you will see in your UI reflects a shot with all the pellets.

Yes, but you're still basically getting "more bullets at no extra cost". While you still have a chance at not getting more bullets, the odds are still largely in favor of getting more and therefore basically doubling all the stats of that specific round fired.

[Teridax68]

I feel the core issue with the suggestion is that it feels like working backwards from a pre-established conclusion: the intent here is clearly to preserve multishot in some form, in spite of the fact that the mechanic objectively adds no real gameplay in its current state, and just boils down to more damage and status. As others have mentioned, if the intent is to be able to let players apply multiple status effects per attack, there are simpler solutions out there. Personally, I think one such solution could be to just have status chance work in a manner similar to crit chance, so that any status chance above 100% counts as a chance to apply an additional status effect. Even without that suggestion, the fact remains that multishot does not really benefit the game, and I'd argue is actually pretty detrimental to it in many ways (for example, it slows down processing by requiring the game to handle more projectiles on most weapons), which is why I'd rather cut the stat out entirely, and instead adjust gun damage and status chance as needed.

[000l000]

Le 20/02/2019 à 04:01, Datam4ss a dit :

Status already >>> Crits for high level content and this change would only nerf crit. I guess someone up there plain hates crit guns.

Wrong. Pure status isn't better than crit at high level since your damage output will be really low without crit. Hybrid is better and anything with tons of critical AND hunter munitions will always perform better.

Bleeds kill anything in a sec, corrosive procs don't. Sure you rip armors and gaz pass though shields but how much time do you need ? Vectis can apply 100k bleeds, with enough crit chance and enough base damage lots of weapons can apply 6k-20k bleeds without a single status.

So far i can kill level 160 enemies faster with a viral/bleed critical weapon than any gaz or corrosive "white damage" weapon.

Il y a 21 heures, Rathalio a dit :

It's already the case, stats wich are shown on the UI are just expectations of your dammages. If you have 90% multishot, the stats you will see on your weapon will reflect this, this also means that's the dammage you deal 90% of the time, the other 10% times  you will do less than what is shown to you. There is no dammage multiplier with multishot only an view on dammage expected with more ammo per shot are shown.

Anyway for all what is said before : multishot has no direct buff on any stats like status, crit, dammage etc.
In you UI you will see more status chances because you just have more instance of status chance proc since you shot more pellet per hit, same thing with damage, you don't do more dammage per pellet you just shot more pellets and the dammage you will see in your UI reflects a shot with all the pellets.

Except beam weapons. What's wrong with multishot is that not adding shots with beam weapons impairs pure status builds - unless you're going for damage procs such as bleeds or gaz. Pure corrosive status only beam weapons armor stripping is bad compared to other guns.

It doesn't impair critical beam weapons though. That's why such guns as Flux rifle or Spectra aren't performing that well currently, without crit at all they're really weak guns. Gaze or Synapse on the other hand...

Edited February 21, 2019 by 000l000

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Wrong. Pure status isn't better than crit at high level since your damage output will be really low without crit. Hybrid is better and anything with tons of critical AND hunter munitions will always perform better.

Bleeds kill anything in a sec, corrosive procs don't. Sure you rip armors and gaz pass though shields but how much time do you need ? Vectis can apply 100k bleeds, with enough crit chance and enough base damage lots of weapons can apply 6k-20k bleeds without a single status.

So far i can kill level 160 enemies faster with a viral/bleed critical weapon than any gaz or corrosive "white damage" weapon.

Except beam weapons. What's wrong with multishot is that not adding shots with beam weapons impairs pure status builds - unless you're going for damage procs such as bleeds or gaz, but pure corrosive status weapons is atrocious compared to other guns.

It doesn't impair critical beam weapons though. That's why such guns as Flux rifle or Spectra aren't performing that well currently, without crit at all they're really weak guns. Gaze or Synapse on the other hand...

You do know Hunter Munitions is in a way a second layer of status chance. It in itself is a status mod, just not in the traditional sense. It simply converts your crit chance to get status rather than the weapon's raw status. Crit on its own is flimsy if you take out HM (or stop using Garuda's 4), and you must really be high if you think weapons can apply huge bleeds reliably with just HM. Also, you definitely still need a decent status chance to apply viral and keep it on the enemy. Hunter Munitions in fact PROVES even harder you need status.

200% CC is not going to make you proc HM with a higher chance.

When I state Status >>>> Crit, it is in terms of pure. Nobody talks about hybrid builds in such a comparison. The comparison is between something like the Plinx vs the Cycron or Bronco Prime (Go on, prove your Plinx can kill faster than say Cycron), not your fancy Kitgun/Sicarus Prime with high stats in everything. The discussion of hybrid builds being better than status builds is completely irrelevant - for example, if you have a beautiful appearance and a highly intelligent mind, you are objectively superior to anyone who has one but is lacking in the other.

Then there is the problem of no Hunter Munitions for Secondaries. Garuda exists but she is a single frame with a very specific play style.

Vectis itself is a terrible argument. It is a slow firing gun that can only be built for maximum damage per shot, in no small part because it fires one to three bullets depending on your multishot. You are not going to strip any armor with it no matter what you do, which automatically favours crit for its specific case. If I cherry pick similarly to you, a Tigris P or Exergis with a pure status build (no crit because they cannot crit anyway with basic mods in appreciable amounts) can easily outperform many crit guns with HM slapped on them, because the base damage on the gun also matters - crit simply scales the base damage bigger with more crit mods, but if the difference is big enough to not matter nobody cares.

Bottom line is, Crit itself is still useless at high levels if it is not applying any status effects to facilitate damage. This is a fact, not something that can be disputed.

P.S. given the fact you are testing with level 160 in what is probably the Simulacrum, you have to be an MR 26 or 27. This level of mistaken argument is quite embarrassing for someone who has played this long.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Guest

[000l000]

il y a 57 minutes, Datam4ss a dit :

You do know Hunter Munitions is in a way a second layer of status chance. It in itself is a status mod, just not in the traditional sense. It simply converts your crit chance to get status rather than the weapon's raw status. Crit on its own is flimsy if you take out HM (or stop using Garuda's 4), and you must really be high if you think weapons can apply huge bleeds reliably with just HM. Also, you definitely still need a decent status chance to apply viral and keep it on the enemy. Hunter Munitions in fact PROVES even harder you need status.

200% CC is not going to make you proc HM with a higher chance.

When I state Status >>>> Crit, it is in terms of pure. Nobody talks about hybrid builds in such a comparison. The comparison is between something like the Plinx vs the Cycron or Bronco Prime (Go on, prove your Plinx can kill faster than say Cycron), not your fancy Kitgun/Sicarus Prime with high stats in everything. The discussion of hybrid builds being better than status builds is completely irrelevant - for example, if you have a beautiful appearance and a highly intelligent mind, you are objectively superior to anyone who has one but is lacking in the other.

Then there is the problem of no Hunter Munitions for Secondaries. Garuda exists but she is a single frame with a very specific play style.

Vectis itself is a terrible argument. It is a slow firing gun that can only be built for maximum damage per shot, in no small part because it fires one to three bullets depending on your multishot. You are not going to strip any armor with it no matter what you do, which automatically favours crit for its specific case. If I cherry pick similarly to you, a Tigris P or Exergis with a pure status build (no crit because they cannot crit anyway with basic mods in appreciable amounts) can easily outperform many crit guns with HM slapped on them, because the base damage on the gun also matters - crit simply scales the base damage bigger with more crit mods, but if the difference is big enough to not matter nobody cares.

Bottom line is, Crit itself is still useless at high levels if it is not applying any status effects to facilitate damage. This is a fact, not something that can be disputed.

P.S. given the fact you are testing with level 160 in what is probably the Simulacrum, you have to be an MR 26 or 27. This level of mistaken argument is quite embarrassing for someone who has played this long.

What are you even talking about, sorry but everything you said is so confusing. Critical chance has nothing to do with procs, it just makes your bleeds dealing insane damages. With enough MS you can shoot 3 bullets with a single shot, that's pretty much 3*30% bleed proc chance - So i'll stick with my Vectis since you seem to like it a lot, you'll make anything bleed with a single shot, two at worse. Now if you want to talk about Tigris prime i'd agree with you cause i never said slash status weapons weren't performing well, quite the opposite in fact. Problem is that many status weapons have low base damage/no slash and thus are making bleeds totally worthless since most procs will definitely be corrosive.

"You are not going to strip any armor with it no matter what you do" is everything you failed to understand. Bleeds don't care about armor, that's why meta is always bleeding weapons. Slash critical secondaries or HM+crit primaries. You can argue all day about that but Slash/HM+crit. is what can fill faster than anything else right now, not pure corrosive status/no crit, especially without a single slash proc.

The secondary argument is interesting nonetheless, they don't have HM to deal huge bleeding procs. Now tell me how much pure status secondaries are performing compared to critical or hybrid weapons such as Pandero, Pyrana prime, Staticor, Atomos, AkJagara/Somati/stiletto, twin gremlins or even Synoid Gammacor ? Unless you're going for 100% status shotgun mechanics (which is another story though) and specific rivens, twin Khomak could perform really well but once again it's a slash weapon.

Do you really think that pure status secondaries are performing that well, have you tested Cycron, dual Toxocyst, basic Gammacor, Sonicor, basic Ballistica, Kraken, seer or Tysis ? Only a few weapons in this game are interesting if used with status only, not because they're killing fast or anything but because they have useful innate mechanics - Pox for example can rip armors like anything else in this game, but without its innate abilities it'd be as bad as your Sonicor.

I won't comment your last lines, quite arrogant and offensive at best. I don't think i'm the one to be embarassed here.

Edited February 21, 2019 by 000l000

[Guest]

1 minute ago, 000l000 said:

What are you even talking about, sorry but everything you said is so confusing. Critical chance has nothing to do with procs, it just makes your bleeds dealing insane damages. With enough MS you can shoot 3 bullets with a single shot, that's pretty much 3*30% bleed proc chance - So i'll stick with my Vectis since you seem to like it a lot, you'll make anything bleed with a single shot, two at worse. Now if you want to talk about Tigris prime i'd agree with you cause i never said slash status weapons weren't performing well, quite the opposite in fact. Problem is that many status weapons have low base damage/no slash and thus are making bleeds totally worthless since most procs will definitely be corrosive.

High CC means more chance to proc HM. If you do not first crit, Hunter Munitions will not proc at all.

Vectis is a very specific case. It is the only gun where Primed Chamber is viable, it is crit viable and it is slow, as I mentioned. Do you even follow what I write? There is no way to stack corrosive with a Vectis P so you rely on max damage per trigger pull. This is in spite of the 30% stat chance it has.

Tigris P is also a very specific case. As I mentioned, you cherry pick Vectis because it can output what is probably the biggest bleed in game per shot if HM procs, so I bring in Tigris P as you are comparing top of class to top of class.

Telos Boltor with a crit build including HM performs worse against level 155 compared to Boltor Prime with a raw status build. I have a Crit Chance/Damage Riven for Boltor so it should bias towards the crit gun. It isn't biasing how you would expect it to

12 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

"You are not going to strip any armor with it no matter what you do" is everything you failed to understand. Bleeds don't care about armor, that's why meta is always bleeding weapons. Slash critical secondaries or HM+crit primaries. You can argue all day about that but Slash/HM+crit. is what can fill faster than anything else right now, not pure corrosive status, especially without a single slash proc.

This is in context of a Vectis, a slow gun with low pellet per trigger pull. This makes it unsuitable for stacking status so the only way to go for it is max damage per shot. It has nothing to do with bleeds it can put out, because if you take away the bleeds it is worthless.

It is why Hunter Munitions is compulsory. Take the HM off the gun for comparison. I am well aware of what all the damage types do.

16 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

The secondary argument is interesting nonetheless, they don't have HM to deal huge bleeding procs. Now tell me how much pure status secondaries are performing compared to critical or hybrid weapons such as Pandero, Pyrana prime, Staticor, Atomos, AkJagara/Somati/stiletto, twin gremlins or even Synoid Gammacor ? Unless you're going for 100% status shotgun mechanics (which is another story though) and specific rivens, twin Khomak could perform really well but once again it's a slash weapon.

Again, you don't understand what I am saying. The comparison is between pure status and pure crit.

Hybrid weapons are irrelevant as they do both well so they are both a status and crit gun. We can cross Akjagara, Akstilleto, Synoid G, Staticor and Prisma Twin Gremlins off that list.

Pyrana P is overrated unless Garuda is the one using it. It falls off hard without a Riven once armor becomes thick simply because the rare slash proc is not very hard hitting (being only one pellet worth). Same for Pandero which hardly procs slash. Atomos is not so much a crit or status gun as it is an AoE weapon.

This is why I say, use the Plinx for your tests. This is a definition of pure crit.

25 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

Do you really think that pure status secondaries are performing that well, have you tested Cycron, dual Toxocyst, basic Gammacor, Sonicor, basic Ballistica, Kraken, seer or Tysis ? Only a few weapons in this game are interesting if used with status only, not because they're killing fast or anything but because they have useful innate mechanics - Pox for example can rip armors like anything else in this game, but without its innate abilities it'd be as bad as your Sonicor.

Cycron is my main gun. You can check my profile. The fact it outperformed my Crit Primaries all the time is not new to me.

Also, cherry picking slow guns not optimized for status stacking is hardly valid. You already contradicted yourself with Pox.