Warframe's First Paywall

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Kuldor said:

No one on this planet can get the new frame without paying for it. It's nothing related to diferent branches of the game, nothing related to certification on consoles, they just introduced a warframe in the game when you can NOT get it unless you pay for it (regardless of how you received the platinum, you are using premium currency).

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You have to wait for the next phase of the events to get the parts? Ooh, aah. How do dare they make you wait while they work on ensuring that the content? 🙄

Imma wait for you to figure out the part that you quoted means what you said I didn't get. Imma "just wait" for that, the same way most people will "just wait" for the rest of the content to drop. 

1 hour ago, Kuldor said:

Any other past warframe would have been released in two weeks, when we can actually fight the exploiter orb and get the rest of the parts, the sole reason to release it like this is money. You don't care about that or even think is fine for them to release like this? fine, everyone has an opinion, but it's indeed a change of business practice from DE towards a less user friendly model.

The Vauban I didn't pay for is laughing at you right now. Want me to try to find out what he finds so funny? He seems to be trying to say "two weeks" but he's just laughing way too hard. I wonder why he thinks that you complaining about a couple of weeks is hilarious? 

You gonna claim that he's part of the conspiracy that you are currently pretending is a thing? Or that he never existed? 

 

[Zeclem]

5 hours ago, Knowmad762 said:

You're missing the point: how long the gap is between buyer's access and earner's access is irrelevant, the fact that there is any gap at all is the issue. That gap has never existed previously, thus, it marks an objective change in DE's monetization policy. DE is free to change their policies whenever they like (or if they are pressured by their parent corporation to do so), but we as a community have to choose if this is acceptable or not.

Just a fair warning: at one point, EA was a perfectly fine company, until somebody said "hey, I bet we can squeeze a bit more money out of our content somehow". Fast forward to now, where they are the most hated company in gaming. Slippery slope indeed.

except that this gap DID exist. thats what de's monetization policy has been for forever. 

[Knowmad762]

7 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

except that this gap DID exist. thats what de's monetization policy has been for forever. 

Please name one example.

Vanilla Vauban is likely the closest, but in purely technical terms, he was still fair game: the earn through gameplay mechanism was activated at the same time that he was available for premium currency purchase, so that both options did run in parallel. That said, the earn through gameplay mechanism for Vauban was pretty terrible, but that is a whole different discussion entirely.

[Zeclem]

4 minutes ago, Knowmad762 said:

Please name one example.

Vanilla Vauban is likely the closest, but in purely technical terms, he was still fair game: the earn through gameplay mechanism was activated at the same time that he was available for premium currency purchase, so that both options did run in parallel. That said, the earn through gameplay mechanism for Vauban was pretty terrible, but that is a whole different discussion entirely.

i did earlier(garuda), which had a timegate on it when released. same with gara. and to every new player, everything is "paywalled" cus they have to spend time to get the thing, sometimes even years. its nothing new nor a slippery slope.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Zeclem

[Knowmad762]

Just now, Zeclem said:

i did earlier(garuda), which had a timegate on it when released. same with gara.  

Sure. Garuda, Revenant, Gara, and Baruuk were all time gated behind rep standing walls, but that is a very different situation. People complained that the daily rep standing limit put a hard cap on how much a player could progress in a single 24 hour period. But that is just it: they could make definite progress towards each of those frames once per 24 hour cycle. That seems a luxury compared with Hildryn, where absolutely no progress can be made at all. Period.

Time gating is one thing, a temporary paywall is another.

[GrayArchon]

@markus230 pointed this out on page 1 of this discussion, but Valkyr was the exact same way. She was released with Operation: The Hunt for Alad V, and the Alad V boss fight was unveiled at the end of that event. Until the boss fight was revealed, the only way Valkyr could be obtained was by buying her from the store with Platinum. This tactic is 5 years old and is not new.

EDIT: also, @Katinka mentioned Vauban, which is also a valid parallel.

In both of those cases, you could not make meaningful progress towards obtaining the warframe on your own. You are either at the mercy of a community event or RNG alerts. Hildryn is nothing new.

Edited March 13, 2019 by GrayArchon
added stuff

[Zeclem]

9 minutes ago, Knowmad762 said:

Sure. Garuda, Revenant, Gara, and Baruuk were all time gated behind rep standing walls, but that is a very different situation. People complained that the daily rep standing limit put a hard cap on how much a player could progress in a single 24 hour period. But that is just it: they could make definite progress towards each of those frames once per 24 hour cycle. That seems a luxury compared with Hildryn, where absolutely no progress can be made at all. Period.

Time gating is one thing, a temporary paywall is another.

not really. they arent all that different. and if you really think those thermias we collect wont be used, i think you need to think a bit more on what you just said. 

[Knowmad762]

5 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

@markus230 pointed this out on page 1 of this discussion, but Valkyr was the exact same way. She was released with Operation: The Hunt for Alad V, and the Alad V boss fight was unveiled at the end of that event. Until the boss fight was revealed, the only way Valkyr could be obtained was by buying her from the store with Platinum. This tactic is 5 years old and is not new.

EDIT: also, @Katinka mentioned Vauban, which is also a valid parallel.

In both of those cases, you could not make meaningful progress towards obtaining the warframe on your own. You are either at the mercy of a community event or RNG alerts. Hildryn is nothing new.

As Aila pointed out on page 2, Markus was wrong. Players were able to fight Alad V on day 1, parallel to the premium currency option.

As I mentioned earlier: Vauban was fair game by technicality. His acquisition mechanic was horribly RNG based, but it was available to players alongside the premium currency option.

[Knowmad762]

12 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

not really. they arent all that different. and if you really think those thermias we collect wont be used, i think you need to think a bit more on what you just said. 

They are absolutely different. For all of those frames, players could make limited, but absolute progress towards them every single day. For Hildryn, players can make no progress at all until some undefined point in the future. I am unsure how to make this more clear.

The fact that you don't know if thermias will be used is only more indicative of a problem: are they actually needed? How many are needed? Does each squad member need one/more, like a Fomorian Disruptor, or is it simply optional, like an Eidolon Phylaxis? The fact that we know so little about how to even prepare to earn a Warframe that is already purchasable for premium currency is kind of ridiculous.

[GrayArchon]

18 minutes ago, Knowmad762 said:

As Aila pointed out on page 2, Markus was wrong. Players were able to fight Alad V on day 1, parallel to the premium currency option.

As I mentioned earlier: Vauban was fair game by technicality. His acquisition mechanic was horribly RNG based, but it was available to players alongside the premium currency option.

That is incorrect. I played that Event. Jupiter initially had Infested nodes, with the boss being the J-3 Golem (who dropped Volt parts). When the Event started, nodes were invaded by the Corpus and needed to be cleared by players, and eventually each node would become Corpus, with the Gas City tileset. Themisto was the last node to be cleared, and when it was, Alad V was revealed, and he could be killed by players for Valkyr parts. I'm not sure why Aila remembers otherwise.

If my memory isn't sufficient, the official page for the event makes it clear: "Clear the Infested from each of Jupiter's nodes. As each of the nodes are cleared, the Corpus Gas City will be unlocked. After the Corpus Gas Cities have been revealed, Alad V will be exposed and Valkyr can be rescued."

I won't pursue the Vauban angle, as the parallel is inexact.

[Knowmad762]

15 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

That is incorrect. I played that Event. Jupiter initially had Infested nodes, with the boss being the J-3 Golem (who dropped Volt parts). When the Event started, nodes were invaded by the Corpus and needed to be cleared by players, and eventually each node would become Corpus, with the Gas City tileset. Themisto was the last node to be cleared, and when it was, Alad V was revealed, and he could be killed by players for Valkyr parts. I'm not sure why Aila remembers otherwise.

If my memory isn't sufficient, the official page for the event makes it clear: "Clear the Infested from each of Jupiter's nodes. As each of the nodes are cleared, the Corpus Gas City will be unlocked. After the Corpus Gas Cities have been revealed, Alad V will be exposed and Valkyr can be rescued."

I won't pursue the Vauban angle, as the parallel is inexact.

Okay, I concede that you may have something. Looking at the old patch notes, Valkyr was available for purchase on Nov 20, 2013. Because of the event structure, Alad V was not able to be fought until four days later on Nov 24, 2013.

But one could make the argument that actively participating in the event did count as making progress towards earning Valkyr: players could actually complete the alerts over the four days, with repeated level clears moving the community progress bar closer. In this scenario, with the ability to repeat the event actions, the player does feel that they have some control over the speed that the event progresses.

With Hildryn, the player is asked to scan the data hashes one time. That is all. Then do nothing wait for other players to do the same. Repeated scans by a single player do not move the community progress bar, thus making this event markedly different that Valkyr's in terms of player engagement.

[GrayArchon]

2 minutes ago, Knowmad762 said:

Okay, I concede that you may have something. Looking at the old patch notes, Valkyr was available for purchase on Nov 20, 2013. Because of the event structure, Alad V was not able to be fought until four days later on Nov 24, 2013.

But one could make the argument that actively participating in the event did count as making progress towards earning Valkyr: players could actually complete the alerts over the four days, with repeated level clears moving the community progress bar closer. In this scenario, with the ability to repeat the event actions, the player does feel that they have some control over the speed that the event progresses.

With Hildryn, the player is asked to scan the data hashes one time. That is all. Then do nothing wait for other players to do the same. Repeated scans by a single player do not move the community progress bar, thus making this event markedly different that Valkyr's in terms of player engagement.

Sure, an individual player could redo the missions to feel like they were contributing. An individual player today could make duplicate accounts to scan the data-hashes and contribute to the progress of the Event.

The contribution of any individual player pales to the effort of the playerbase. In my opinion, anyone who feels like they are contributing by dedicating extra effort to the Event does not have an accurate reflection of what is really going on.

Then again, it's a video game. The level of enjoyment any player feels is based on subjective factors such as expectations, so who am I to say that a player is experiencing the game wrong?

[Knowmad762]

6 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

Sure, an individual player could redo the missions to feel like they were contributing. An individual player today could make duplicate accounts to scan the data-hashes and contribute to the progress of the Event.

The contribution of any individual player pales to the effort of the playerbase. In my opinion, anyone who feels like they are contributing by dedicating extra effort to the Event does not have an accurate reflection of what is really going on.

Then again, it's a video game. The level of enjoyment any player feels is based on subjective factors such as expectations, so who am I to say that a player is experiencing the game wrong?

Those are really not the same.

Creating an alternate account, or several, for the sole purpose of benefiting one main account, is really pushing the bounds of the ToS and could be very easily be a bannable offense.

So besides being wildly impractical (a fresh account would have to get to Fortuna, and find all the scans with no Archwing, while not getting destroyed by enemies), the only way to make progress in this event is to risk getting banned?

[MajFauxPas]

On 2019-03-09 at 7:52 AM, Mad5cout said:

Can I just point out that the most recent update is one of the first times we have seen mainline content hidden behind a platinum paywall?  It is currently not possible to unlock Hildryn without paying platinum, creating a delayed release profit-making scheme that, to my knowledge, has not happened yet in Warframe.  Am I overstating this?  To me, this comes off like a major betrayal to the commitment DE has long made to its player base.  To me, this comes off as pay to win (first).  While we will all get access to the content eventually, this is a significant change to their content release practices.

Am I the only one seeing this?

No, you're not the only one seeing it. But you see it in a different way than I do.I see Hildryn as 'pay-to-play early.'

I say this because I've wanted Saryn Prime since right before she was vaulted. I was missing one part! I gave up and left the game for a year.

Came back in Fortuna, bought plat, looked the part price up. Then, what do you know, GFTL S9 and S10 relics. Free Saryn Prime. Well, after a week of farming and building and a month of not trading for the part 😛

So this delay seems pretty insignificant to me, especially if it's just a month.

Besides, DE needs us to buy something. It's a free game, but it's not made for free! And this is better than vaulting IMO

[Kontrollo]

Lol, is this still going?

 

2 hours ago, Knowmad762 said:

... But one could make the argument that actively participating in the event did count as making progress towards earning Valkyr: players could actually complete the alerts over the four days, with repeated level clears moving the community progress bar closer. In this scenario, with the ability to repeat the event actions, the player does feel that they have some control over the speed that the event progresses. ...

I told you guys several times already that if you want to progress, you can simply create alt accounts and help it along for the rest of us, too. You know, since you're willing to put this much energy into it. 😄

Also, while we're here and in order to make this not a complete waste of time, we can at least learn something from this example; what you're doing in this particular quote is called a "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Glad to be of help.

 

Do you guys actually think the devs are taking this seriously? They're probably having a good chuckle.

 

Spoiler

 

[Knowmad762]

50 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

I told you guys several times already that if you want to progress, you can simply create alt accounts and help it along for the rest of us, too. You know, since you're willing to put this much energy into it. 😄

Also, while we're here and in order to make this not a complete waste of time, we can at least learn something from this example; what you're doing in this particular quote is called a "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Glad to be of help.

 

Do you guys actually think the devs are taking this seriously? They're probably having a good chuckle.

I disagree with your allegation of fallacy, could you elaborate?

The specific objective rule that I reference repeatedly, is that of player progression. Valkyr's event, with the repeatable event mechanics, presented to the player the concept that the more times they ran the event, the greater their contribution to the whole. Under that concept, a player's progression is directly measured by how many repetitions they contribute. The idea presented to the player, is that they could, in theory, with enough repetitions, complete progress in the entire global event singlehandedly.

Contrast that with the Hildryn event, where the player's contribution to the global total is hard capped at 1. It is not repeatable under normal circumstances, and thus the player can make no more progress in any way. The very idea that a player could complete it singlehandedly is completely and thoroughly absent.

How are these two examples not objectively different?

 

[(PSN)SCHEISER]

To all the PC's players wining about waiting welcome to console land.... but we now get it x2 (waiting).  We always wait for your update (PC) then our cert.  Its not pay to win, because you can still suck w/ or w/o Hyldrin.  Paying to win is you are buying something that gives you an unfair advantage to others unless they put actual money into the game and buy it as well.  Please looks at what the difference is - everyone can get Hildryn w/ or w.o buying her.

[Kuldor]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)SCHEISER said:

To all the PC's players wining about waiting welcome to console land.... but we now get it x2 (waiting).  We always wait for your update (PC) then our cert.  Its not pay to win, because you can still suck w/ or w/o Hyldrin.  Paying to win is you are buying something that gives you an unfair advantage to others unless they put actual money into the game and buy it as well.  Please looks at what the difference is - everyone can get Hildryn w/ or w.o buying her.

No one talked about pay to win?

 

You don't get warframes released for plat only and then introduced into the game 2 weeks later?

 

No one can get hildryn without buying her.

 

Your point makes no sense.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Kuldor

[Kuldor]

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

 

Imma wait for you to figure out the part that you quoted means what you said I didn't get. Imma "just wait" for that, the same way most people will "just wait" for the rest of the content to drop. 

The Vauban I didn't pay for is laughing at you right now. Want me to try to find out what he finds so funny? He seems to be trying to say "two weeks" but he's just laughing way too hard. I wonder why he thinks that you complaining about a couple of weeks is hilarious? 

You gonna claim that he's part of the conspiracy that you are currently pretending is a thing? Or that he never existed? 

 

You keep making falacy after falacy just to reduce this to the absurd, have fun with your nonsense when DE starts releasing early access warframes and other timed stuff.

 

I see no point at all to support this kind of behavior from DE or any developer, other than "now you know how I feel on console", which is just ridiculous unless you are around 12.

 

vauban was introduced in the game at the same time he was available for purchase, the way to obtain him was RNG and timed, but he was in the game. Do you know how are we going to obtain hyldrin? NO, because she is NOT in the game, AT ALL. She may be even worse than vauban, she may have a 0.001% drop chance, we have no #*!%ing clue, because she has NOT been introduced in the game.

 

If this is really this hard to understand I'm really starting to lose hope on any gaming community.

 

something present in the game =/= something not present in the game

Edited March 13, 2019 by Kuldor

[(PSN)SCHEISER]

47 minutes ago, Kuldor said:

No one talked about pay to win?

 

You don't get warframes released for plat only and then introduced into the game 2 weeks later?

 

No one can get hildryn without buying her.

 

Your point makes no sense.

Paywall/pay-to-win same difference. 

be patient dude. Rome wasn't built in a day. so if you want to wine go buy it with plat.

You will get her when the event's done.  You couldn't get Baruuk Day 1 either (unless purchased) or did you forget.

Read. it all makes sense.

[Kuldor]

1 minute ago, (PS4)SCHEISER said:

Paywall/pay-to-win same difference. 

be patient dude. Rome wasn't built in a day. so if you want to wine go buy it with plat.

You will get her when the event's done.  You couldn't get Baruuk Day 1 either (unless purchased) or did you forget.

Read. it all makes sense.

Hell no, it's not the same, it's not the same at all.

At least know what the post you are commenting on is talking about.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Kuldor

[Kontrollo]

1 hour ago, Knowmad762 said:

I disagree with your allegation of fallacy, could you elaborate?

You make a claim which gets refuted with counter examples. Then you think up ways to somehow invalidate those counter examples.

 

1 hour ago, Knowmad762 said:

Spoiler

The specific objective rule that I reference repeatedly, is that of player progression. Valkyr's event, with the repeatable event mechanics, presented to the player the concept that the more times they ran the event, the greater their contribution to the whole. Under that concept, a player's progression is directly measured by how many repetitions they contribute. The idea presented to the player, is that they could, in theory, with enough repetitions, complete progress in the entire global event singlehandedly.

Contrast that with the Hildryn event, where the player's contribution to the global total is hard capped at 1. It is not repeatable under normal circumstances, and thus the player can make no more progress in any way. The very idea that a player could complete it singlehandedly is completely and thoroughly absent.

 

^ And just look at how you have to go out on a limb to justify your position. Takes you two paragraphs.

But hey, sounds like you've found your favourite pastime while we wait, so don't let me stop you any longer. 😄

 

P.S.

Spoiler

It's not against the TOS to have several accounts, they just aren't allowed to interact. That has been confirmed multiple times (just search for it). Not that it really matters, you don't have a leg to stand on, anyway.

[Zeclem]

6 hours ago, Knowmad762 said:

They are absolutely different. For all of those frames, players could make limited, but absolute progress towards them every single day. For Hildryn, players can make no progress at all until some undefined point in the future. I am unsure how to make this more clear.

The fact that you don't know if thermias will be used is only more indicative of a problem: are they actually needed? How many are needed? Does each squad member need one/more, like a Fomorian Disruptor, or is it simply optional, like an Eidolon Phylaxis? The fact that we know so little about how to even prepare to earn a Warframe that is already purchasable for premium currency is kind of ridiculous.

they are absolutely not different, because you will use those thermias. that much is pretty much guaranteed at this point. so there is progress being made towards hildryn, whether you want to admit it or not. 

[Kuldor]

21 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

they are absolutely not different, because you will use those thermias. that much is pretty much guaranteed at this point. so there is progress being made towards hildryn, whether you want to admit it or not. 

Care to give me a source on that "pretty much guaranteed"?

I certainly doubt we are going to need items from a timed event (even if it repeats) to get a warframe.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Kuldor

[xveganrox]

... you can farm Hildryn right now. In a wide variety of places. Making progress consistently, without being at the mercy of RNG.

 

If you can't figure out any way to do it on your own I'll make it easy. Can you complete a full rotation of ESO? If not, get there. If so, I'll buy any radiant Axi relic you get from C rotation for 1p. 325 and you've got her, boom! You're welcome 🙂 

 

Fr though, farming Hildryn is the same as farming Nidus. Run stuff (usually void), get stuff (usually prime parts), sell stuff, buy the frame.