(Provide difficulty options to) Increase enemy accuracy, return old parkour, reduce player abilities, reduce or remove effects of enemy AimGraph (to make them more accurate)(?) [Title changed + possible alternate gameplay suggestions]

[L4D3M]

So this game features rogue-like elements, mostly in the procedural maps, loot drops and sometimes spawning tougher enemy types.

If you generate a new type of occasionally spawning strong enemy or mini-boss, giving it more and less interesting different variations of appearances and sound cues to identify it, then giving it 5 different phases which make them easiest to beat when reacted to in 5 (or more) specific different or repeated ways, making those phases survive long enough to stand out regardless of how built up the opposing players' stats are, then you have at least 3125 comparatively more and less interesting extra enemy types. You could even start throwing in more potential ingredients for enemy type generation or content generation in general the further the player progresses through the game, and the recurring generated types will become easier to beat since you started memorizing their patterns, while you study the new ones that begin to follow you, or old ones that have been following your friends and you've just met.

You could even generate less or non-important side-quests or events by piecing together parts of events or stories, slightly similar to but simpler than what Rimworld does to simulate NPC pshychology. You could make boss fights ignore large amounts of damage players direct towards them until certain phases are over.

To give new players the challenge they're looking for, you could provide more lose conditions, like making enemies reach max accuracy when you either jump up and down in a small space for too long, or move in one direction for too long without shooting at or meleeing enemies or taking cover (it means you have to do either of these things and not just hold W in one direction or repeatedly press Space). You could also prevent older players from avoiding the combat and speed-running it like it's a racing game by making all enemies increase their accuracy the faster the player reaches the exits of each room, until the player eventually has to focus on combatting, waiting out, or sneaking past some enemies instead of focusing entirely on the exits. You could even have occasional lock-downs that require killing x number of enemies or waiting x amount of time instead of hacking a console to lower security, that also limits your 4th ability to only being useful for a 5th or 10th of the time of the event, and maybe slightly bumps up the wave difficulty for players who aren't grouped in the same room. You could introduce fast-moving, glass cannon (they'll attack quickly but do little damage and die almost instantly if hit), ninja like enemy types into these lock-downs, who can score a few cheap hits on you if you're not paying attention before allowing more chances to hit them, so you can say that things got more hectic than just having firing squads advance on your position. You could code the enemies to snipe you instantly if you sprint or fly too far in one direction, making you have to navigate the action around you more often than shoot off away from it.

Because there's lots of random chance involved, make sure you understand the maximum and minimum difficulty of scenarios so it's not a breeze, and make sure that warnings and moments of relief are noticeable so that players are neither always too tensed up nor getting insta-killed by complete surprise without a means to anticipate, plan for, or react to the danger (a thing health bars were of course invented for).

Goldeneye 007 (for the N64) gave the player an invisible regenerating 'shield' / evasion / enemy accuracy bar that chipped away the longer enemies fired on you until one of those nearby passing shots became a hit and reduced your armor or health bar. While half of their attacks would let you do a small side-strafe out of the way or circle around the shooter to better avoid them, the other half reduced your options to gaining distance, getting behind cover or returning accurate fire. No two fights were the same, since the AI's actions were random, and they could also duck or strafe out of the way of your aim.
What you could do in Warframe is occasionally bump up the enemies' accuracy to a point where the players' movements have to start resembling circle-strafes and figure 8s around them, or make players gain distance while sniping from afar, or make them find a piece of cover to place between them and a bigger mob while finishing off a smaller mob behind it, or do some tight and crafty parkour maneuvering around the map to get to an optimal position to attack and defend from. This is one reason why I enjoyed more map sections being filled or cluttered with platforms and cover, since they created more variables to change the game up with.

Make sure to balance moments of ease (almost all the time) to a just right amount where challenging moments (some of the time) are just often enough to make an accomplishment be felt when getting past them, while not being annoying.

I feel like writing all this might be far more effective than just stating that I miss when parkour was more intricate than just jump to where you aim, had better animations and made me think, and when enemies were far more accurate. New players also want to think, and have their shooter / action game strategies show to be effective rather than let anyone do anything to get through. Games are only easy when there's no timing or time-limits involved, or when you've learned all the strategies that reduce your mental work. And the human brain is capable of retaining the information of 4.7 billion books.

Edited April 11, 2019 by L4D3M

[L4D3M]

Challenges.

Challenges bring in people who are willing to dedicate themselves to something. The more complicated and fun a challenge is, or the more options it gives you to beat it, the more interesting it is.

The problem I find with having enemies being accurate, or the old wall-running, or a long jump that requires a long runway, is that they made the individual direction they expanded in too complicated by itself.

I feel like combining both at the same time, like we had before, will make it more well-rounded (you can't just Ctrl+Space jump to wherever you want, and you can't just run past all the enemies and their bullets to get to the next room. We already have a regenerating shield for crying out loud).

I'm also arguing that people don't shoot or beat up the enemy AI in this game because they're a threat. Most of the time they're not a threat, and people are doing it just because their falling over / dismemberment / ragdoll animations look cool or funny, which kind of flies in the face of the game's plot that's trying to be serious.

Enemies need to be able to hit the side of a barn, and their miss chance needs to exceed no more than 80-90% when players are trying their hardest to slip away while exposed. It currently just seems like you only get hit 1% of the time if you're running or sprinting forward, which makes it easy to get to the exit of a room or pick up all the loot without bothering, making picking up loot and running for exits the only two activities all or almost all players end up doing. This is why I suggested that maybe all enemies should be able to just instantly snipe you if you reach the exit of a room too fast in my last post.

Sure, we have a button that can wipe half of the map, but we don't get it all the time (or it can be coded to last a shorter time or be useful for a smaller amount of time), but what we don't have is gameplay that says you have to actively be defending yourself against anything (most of the time), which is what new players will find out when they don't have any powers or map wiping buttons and can just run past everything. They find out that you can just complete the whole map passively and just have to pick up stuff off the ground and head towards the next room's exit.

You could even make it so that hitting at-least one enemy at a time reduces the accuracy of all the others, like a vampiric effect that Bloodborne and more games are adapting to, or at least do something that says you're not playing passively. The older parkour system really helped with that, and made things interesting because there were a limited number of fast ways to get to optimal positions on, around and behind cover and platforms, yet you couldn't just jump to wherever whenever and enemies did enough damage to not make the optimal route just ignoring the whole map, scooping loot and running towards the exits. Punishment and reward are things you have to balance to make it not look like a pointless fun-show, and having loads of interesting cover, platforms, objects and architecture to fill the map with added lots of flavor and variables that could change situations.

The older parkour system had a few more cool animations to work with, things to do, and limits (or you could just take away the bullet jump), but I have the strongest feeling it will work with making the game an actual challenge instead of about walking to the exit without a thought while ignoring all the enemies and danger (at least just take away the bullet jump, and make player abilities less strong). Having creative traversal can be a third of the game, shooting things and hitting E to melee could be another third, and sometimes using extra abilities that aren't over-powered, but just powered enough to sometimes weigh over the other two things could be the last portion.

 

[MJ12]

Wow, a 'remove Parkour 2.0' thread. I haven't seen one of these in literal years.

I have been playing this game since 2012, and literally not having parkour at all didn't stop rushers from rushing. It just means that rushers will just dedicate their mods to rushing missions, at which point the rushers are not only doing the same thing, but contributing even less. If you want to fix rushers, you're going to do something other than nerfing mobility.

[Gabbynaru]

So basically turn Warframe into *insert brown military shooter here*. No thank you! Screw challenge, I'm playing games for FUN (what a novel concept, eh?), not to torture myself.

[AdunSaveMe]

Why is reverting the game to a worse state the only way to make it more challenging?

[IronKing24]

i suggest you play solo at your own pace OR go long runs 2H and above enemies wont miss you even if you are on the other side of the galaxy 

no saine min maxer would want to waste 10 mins on a 1 min mission

Edited April 8, 2019 by IronKing24

[L4D3M]

8 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

So basically turn Warframe into *insert brown military shooter here*. No thank you! Screw challenge, I'm playing games for FUN (what a novel concept, eh?), not to torture myself.

Except this game has swords, magic and ninjas. I even suggested just having a difficulty slider before to suit both types of players, because some people actually consider using their head to beat a challenge fun. Challenges are universal, and the brain is something you need to train or nourish properly to beat more of them more easily.

[VoidWraith]

So OP wants to bring back coptering?

[Gabbynaru]

8 minutes ago, L4D3M said:

Except this game has swords, magic and ninjas. I even suggested just having a difficulty slider before to suit both types of players, because some people actually consider using their head to beat a challenge fun. Challenges are universal, and the brain is something you need to train or nourish properly to beat more of them more easily.

Pretty sure they're already working on something related to difficulty scaling. Not sure if a slider or something like that, but, at least it's in the works. Hope the world won't end before they deploy it.

Oh, and, for your futile attempt at insulting my intellect: There are times and games where I wanna use my brain to beat them (XCOM, Civ, pCars2, Tropico, Soulsborne, Motorsport Manager, etc...) and there are times and games where I wanna give my brain a break (Yakuza, Dynasty Warriors, Warframe, most VNs, Worms, Isaac Afterbirth++, Everspace, Freelancer, Euro Truck Simulator 2, Stardew Valley, etc...). Not all games have to fall in the first category, and just cause I enjoy giving my brain a break doesn't mean my intellect is... underdeveloped. In fact, if you think that, you may be the one whose intellect should get called into question.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Gabbynaru

[Guest]

As for what OP is suggesting, what about no.

Taking away what sets the game apart from titles like CoD and Destiny is taking away how Warframe makes money.

Literally this is another "oh no my way is the best way, you all can take the highway" thread. Except OP decided to target literally the worst target in the game.

I don't even get it...

[L4D3M]

2 minutes ago, VoidWraith said:

So OP wants to bring back coptering?

I never used coptering, so I don't have an opinion on it besides people having a probably valid reason not to like it. I'm just saying that people are booting the game for the first time and it's a breeze, and addressing multiple things that make it easy. Also wondering if it's just me or if they just introduce guys with cheap tricks that always happen the same way to slow you down while every other guy is still under powered.

[Dark_Lugia]

I really love the fast parkour and ability spam.
Seeing tons of enemy getting blown up is pure fun (rip old tonkor).

If i want a more back to the ground gameplay i would play something else.
 

[L4D3M]

3 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

As for what OP is suggesting, what about no.

Taking away what sets the game apart from titles like CoD and Destiny is taking away how Warframe makes money.

Literally this is another "oh no my way is the best way, you all can take the highway" thread. Except OP decided to target literally the worst target in the game.

I don't even get it...

A video game doesn't last forever. That's why I suggested more emergent / procedurally generated stuff in my previous post. Also, weren't games like CoD or Destiny said to be too easy or simple, with re-used bosses? This is why I also suggested implementing a difficulty slider to please everyone. People who want a tough game are skipping this one, and someone could make the next pretty 'push x to melt everything' game like this one, but with more flourish in its mobility than that one button you press to do that one spin-jump animation to go anywhere you aim.

[VoidWraith]

6 minutes ago, L4D3M said:

I never used coptering, so I don't have an opinion on it besides people having a probably valid reason not to like it. I'm just saying that people are booting the game for the first time and it's a breeze, and addressing multiple things that make it easy. Also wondering if it's just me or if they just introduce guys with cheap tricks that always happen the same way to slow you down while every other guy is still under powered.

this might be a bad case of matchmaking, but then again everyone is using these mobility tricks. even if you remove the current one, people will still find efficient ways to move around regardless.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, L4D3M said:

A video game doesn't last forever. That's why I suggested more emergent / procedurally generated stuff in my previous post. Also, weren't games like CoD or Destiny said to be too easy or simple, with re-used bosses? This is why I also suggested implementing a difficulty slider to please everyone. People who want a tough game are skipping this one, and someone could make the next pretty 'push x to melt everything' game like this one, but with more flourish in its mobility than that one button you press to do that one spin-jump animation to go anywhere you aim.

CoD doesn't even have bosses...

People who want a tough game wouldn't even pick Warframe up but if you take away what makes it easy you will cause the casual gamers to up their roots and go. There are much better choices if you like masochistic overly hard games with artificial difficulty through mechanics. Nothing in Warframe will ever make it like that without a great mechanical change up which would piss off more people (a lot more) than it would make happy.

The pretty push one button to melt everything games have existed for a long time. As for the jumping mechanic, no matter how you coat it or change the animations, it will be the same. Artificially slowing down the game by taking it away is another good way to make a lot of people annoyed, even the non rushers.

You cannot take power away from the gamer after giving it to them without pissing everyone off. The difficulty slider is supposedly in the works, but the rest of the suggestions just reeks of self entitlement by what is either a Dark Souls/Military Shooter fanboy or a bored vet with nothing to do. Your quoting of Bloodborne shows as much.

A lot of people are in the game for the fun show and Michael Bay, not the challenge. Perhaps you are barking up the wrong tree here.

 

 

[L4D3M]

13 minutes ago, VoidWraith said:

this might be a bad case of matchmaking, but then again everyone is using these mobility tricks. even if you remove the current one, people will still find efficient ways to move around regardless.

You maybe could even make bullet-jumping a toggle-able option, along with the difficulty slider. I've heard coptering requires certain bladed weapons to perform it, thus setting back anyone who doesn't have them equipped, not that I wanna copter or have a studied opinion on it. Long jumps take skill and would beat coptering in horizontal distance, and bullet jumping is just one action that does whatever it wants easily and made the previous map setups with different spots to do vertical or horizontal wall runs pointless. You could fine tune every part of the game until you need to cheat to get an unfair advantage. Just making the most interesting traversal more obvious than the cheapest one is what I feel should be a step, and if I want to move anywhere I want, I'll just boot up something else and turn on no-clip / fly.

[GrayArchon]

53 minutes ago, L4D3M said:

Challenges.

Challenges bring in people who are willing to dedicate themselves to something. The more complicated and fun a challenge is, or the more options it gives you to beat it, the more interesting it is.

Warframe, by and large, isn't a game with challenge. It hasn't been since like 2014. The game has moved away from that, and it's a direction I've applauded the whole way. I don't play Warframe for challenge. I play to collect things and sink myself in the lore. Adding challenge takes away from that. If you want challenge, play a game that offers it. Warframe isn't that game.

14 minutes ago, L4D3M said:

People who want a tough game are skipping this one

That's fine. Again, Warframe isn't that game.

30 minutes ago, L4D3M said:

Challenges are universal, and the brain is something you need to train or nourish properly to beat more of them more easily.

You can get your challenges somewhere else. Warframe is what I do in my spare time. I challenge myself enough at work or doing other hobbies.

57 minutes ago, L4D3M said:

I made this one that you just read to try and help save the game from dying in the first place.

Despite your own views on what video games should be, Warframe is not dying, by any available metric. It's doing better than it's ever been.

[warp_cat]

Uh oh, another "warframe dying" thread. So nice.

"Warframe. Dying already 6 years as the whiners say." 👍

[L4D3M]

11 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

CoD doesn't even have bosses...

People who want a tough game wouldn't even pick Warframe up but if you take away what makes it easy you will cause the casual gamers to up their roots and go. There are much better choices if you like masochistic overly hard games with artificial difficulty through mechanics. Nothing in Warframe will ever make it like that without a great mechanical change up which would piss off more people (a lot more) than it would make happy.

The pretty push one button to melt everything games have existed for a long time. As for the jumping mechanic, no matter how you coat it or change the animations, it will be the same. Artificially slowing down the game by taking it away is another good way to make a lot of people annoyed, even the non rushers.

You cannot take power away from the gamer after giving it to them without pissing everyone off. The difficulty slider is supposedly in the works, but the rest of the suggestions just reeks of self entitlement by what is either a Dark Souls/Military Shooter fanboy or a bored vet with nothing to do. Your quoting of Bloodborne shows as much.

A lot of people are in the game for the fun show and Michael Bay, not the challenge. Perhaps you are barking up the wrong tree here.

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

Warframe, by and large, isn't a game with challenge. It hasn't been since like 2014. The game has moved away from that, and it's a direction I've applauded the whole way. I don't play Warframe for challenge. I play to collect things and sink myself in the lore. Adding challenge takes away from that. If you want challenge, play a game that offers it. Warframe isn't that game.

That's fine. Again, Warframe isn't that game.

You can get your challenges somewhere else. Warframe is what I do in my spare time. I challenge myself enough at work or doing other hobbies.

Despite your own views on what video games should be, Warframe is not dying, by any available metric. It's doing better than it's ever been.

But you could also just raise your stats and learn the maps to make it easier. I like to pushy a lot of buttons. Also, I feel the problem with say, getting all new weapons with starting ranks and then going on harder missions for an actual challenge, is that the enemy hit chance (again), the thing you have the least ability to react to (because hitscan / 0 travel time bullets), is so random and out of whack and non-constant that I'm happy to just now hear that a difficulty slider might be implemented.

[ErikTheOrange]

Sounds like this just isn't your game OP. I would suggest playing something else instead of suggesting ridiculous reverts and difficulty changes to Warframe.

[Guest]

Just now, L4D3M said:

 

But you could also just raise your stats and learn the maps to make it easier. I like to pushy a lot of buttons. 

You already showed that you want the game your way with this statement.

Warframe is not the only game on the market. If you really wish to take away its only distinguishing factors, then you might as well ... play something else that has what you want.

[L4D3M]

1 minute ago, ErikTheOrange said:

Sounds like this just isn't your game OP. I would suggest playing something else instead of suggesting ridiculous reverts and difficulty changes to Warframe.

It was my game. There's nothing else like the slightly older Warframe, and I'm craving for an option that gives it back to at least just me and everyone else who wants it, while everyone who doesn't can keep doing the same thing without being bothered.

[L4D3M]

6 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

You already showed that you want the game your way with this statement.

Warframe is not the only game on the market. If you really wish to take away its only distinguishing factors, then you might as well ... play something else that has what you want.

If by only distinguishing factors, you mean it doesn't have a big story and lots of lore going for it, or tons of content that changes up looks and gameplay, then sure, but I'm not ignoring those things. It has a decent story and very cool content.

Edited April 9, 2019 by L4D3M

[(PSN)Technesiss]

Gonna have to pass on the suggestions. Return old parkour ? You got jokes. 

[L4D3M]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)CaerulusAurum said:

Gonna have to pass on the suggestions. Return old parkour ? You got jokes. 

Another problem with old parkour is that you probably need entirely separate styles of map design. One for the bullet jump, and one for feeling like you're moving like a crafty ninja. You could even add tons of map secrets you could gradually find with the old system, while the bullet jump will just gets everyone there instantly. Or there could be a new parkour system that combines the best of both worlds, but the huge problem with that, again, is all the maps would have to be redesigned for it. That takes a lot of money and effort, which is why I'm trying to lean to suggesting easier solutions dev-side.

Edited April 9, 2019 by L4D3M