Ok DE... we need to talk about the forums

[Sean]

You guys are at a point where you should be able to have a side-forum that allows for only administrators to access and this way you would be able to test numerous areas before sending changes off to a live website. This way, things won't break in the manner they tend to do, while it would still be impossible to remove all issues, it would at least reduce them in the areas that tend to break most commonly.

 

Based on past history, I know you guys aren't always the most... let's go with "open"... on forum issues. Either not really responding to feedback in pinned topics on the matter or simply stating that feedback has been "heard" but nothing really being fixed in a while. The forum groups "Clan" System, dark theme, forum organization, all have been left in a pretty poor state for a while now.

 

This isn't meant to "bash", but to shine a light on an issue that has persisted, and something that really could be solved fairly easily; even just being more collaborative with the community would go a long way.

[CreamedSoda]

12 minutes ago, Sean said:

This isn't meant to "bash", but to shine a light on an issue that has persisted, and something that really could be solved fairly easily; even just being more collaborative with the community would go a long way.

I love how nobody questions how often the "I am not bashing please don't ban me" stuff is said, don't you think thats a little off to be saying on a regular basis

[Sean]

Just now, Whitestrake0 said:

I love how nobody questions how often the "I am not bashing please don't ban me" stuff is said, don't you think thats a little off to be saying on a regular basis

 

Are you referring to other people when you say "on a regular basis"?

Even so, something like that is usually used to set a tone as oftentimes something critical gets read negatively and then something that was initially meant as criticism becomes "dev bashing".

[CreamedSoda]

Just now, Sean said:

 

Are you referring to other people when you say "on a regular basis"?

Even so, something like that is usually used to set a tone as oftentimes something critical gets read negatively and then something that was initially meant as criticism becomes "dev bashing".

We shouldn't need to have this fear of "Dev bashing". DE has said numerous times that they can take harsh criticism no? 

Idk it just feels weird when people basically have to say "Please don't ban me DE" when they give feedback lol

[Sean]

Just now, Whitestrake0 said:

We shouldn't need to have this fear of "Dev bashing". DE has said numerous times that they can take harsh criticism no? 

Idk it just feels weird when people basically have to say "Please don't ban me DE" when they give feedback lol

From my experience even on these forums that isn't always the case.

I've personally seen over-reactions occur simply because what was said was merely critical, and while that can be chalked up to the reader possibly having a bad day, I'd rather try and defuse the issue before it becomes one.

[peterc3]

Just now, Whitestrake0 said:

I love how nobody questions how often the "I am not bashing please don't ban me" stuff is said, don't you think thats a little off to be saying on a regular basis

They think it is a magic spell that makes whatever they say reasonable. Plus there's an element of this is something The Man doesn't want you to see, click here to find out secrets!

Telling people how to do their jobs, when there's no real problem presented is really the bread and butter of the forums.

15 minutes ago, Sean said:

You guys are at a point where you should be able to have a side-forum that allows for only administrators to access and this way you would be able to test numerous areas before sending changes off to a live website.

Or they roll it out when they are reasonably sure there's no problems and have the much larger amount of people break it... like the game. Dev servers are a known thing, you know, no need for a "side-forum".

How, exactly, would you propose they collaborate on this with the community?

[Sean]

2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

They think it is a magic spell that makes whatever they say reasonable. Plus there's an element of this is something The Man doesn't want you to see, click here to find out secrets!

Telling people how to do their jobs, when there's no real problem presented is really the bread and butter of the forums.

Or they roll it out when they are reasonably sure there's no problems and have the much larger amount of people break it... like the game. Dev servers are a known thing, you know, no need for a "side-forum".

How, exactly, would you propose they collaborate on this with the community?

 

*sigh*

Considering a lot of the same issues have existed for around a year, they could be collaborative on either accepting feedback on those areas or at least being transparent on why they are the same as they have been.

You can ignore issues, but doesn't mean they are not there.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Sean

[peterc3]

1 minute ago, Sean said:

You can ignore issues, but doesn't mean they are not there.

Just because there are issues, doesn't mean they require any attention. Present feedback, don't expect a pat on the head for doing so. Don't presume they agree with you that a given issue is an issue.

Take the Dark Theme issue you mentioned. Making it dark might compromise usability. Maybe the control they used doesn't have theming. Maybe it's just not a priority.

[Sean]

They use IPBoard and a dark theme is fairly simple to implement as it is just reliant on CSS.

The Dark Theme has numerous areas that are unskinned or just have areas that blend together (like a foreground and background being similar colors).

 

None of what I have said is actually difficult to implement (hell, I have it fixed locally) and IPBoard is pretty simple to use.

 

This isn't about a "pat on the head", but about leaving areas in a degraded state for years or starting to work on something (the forum groups) and then just "stopping" while they were left in an unfinished state.

[NightmareT12]

14 minutes ago, Sean said:

*sigh*

Considering a lot of the same issues have existed for around a year, they could be collaborative on either accepting feedback on those areas or at least being transparent on why they are the same as they have been. 

You can ignore issues, but doesn't mean they are not there.

Oh they are transparent. But we are forgetting (or obviating) something here. Community team is 6 to 8 people. Might seem much, but it ain't really.

Remember these 6 to 8 people have to...

• Contact other companies or individuals, especially those in the community
• Recollect feedback as well as bugs posted on this very Forums, Reddit and Steam to pass unto other teams
• Prepare the number of streams going on weekly and biweekly
• Collect and resume changes coming to updates
• Prepare events such as TennoCon, GDC, various cons they attend (even if they don't do stuff like PAX streams now and stuff, someone's always at a con)
• Work together with marketing teams for news on various fronts (large Updates, Prime Access, etc.)
• Supervise moderation
• Read and answer tickets (less often, but they collect info there too!)
• Play the game in search of bugs (basically Q&A) when large updates happen/upcoming content (ie: I think it was Megan playing various times The War Within up to release?)
• ... and whatever I can't think of or I am forgetting, 100% sure I am.

So what does suffer by this? Website care (which is better handled now, but still) -> Forum care -> Linked systems care -> Non critical bugs collecting -> Who the heck knows.

It's only normal they can't handle it. The game has evolved so much and become a Behemoth! When it was 2013, I remember Rebecca, Megan and Drew going through the various subs, posting more often, chasing smaller bugs as well, responding PMs in a timely manner when they were able (usually a couple days delay).

But now the playerbase has gone from thousands to millions. I don't know how the team handles the various inboxes (including the Community one), but I am sure it ain't as efficient as they wish it was. Pretty sure they do their best with what hands they have, even if sometimes even I myself give unto the sheer frustration and don't consider it when posting.

Only George seems to be able to keep up with it. Kudos to George, gotta love him 😛

Edited April 10, 2019 by NightmareT12

[Sean]

7 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Oh they are transparent. But we are forgetting (or obviating) something here. Community team is 6 to 8 people. Might seem much, but it ain't really.

Remember these 6 to 8 people have to...

• Contact other companies or individuals, especially those in the community
• Recollect feedback as well as bugs posted on this very Forums, Reddit and Steam to pass unto other teams
• Prepare the number of streams going on weekly and biweekly
• Collect and resume changes coming to updates
• Prepare events such as TennoCon, GDC, various cons they attend (even if they don't do stuff like PAX streams now and stuff, someone's always at a con)
• Work together with marketing teams for news on various fronts (large Updates, Prime Access, etc.)
• Supervise moderation
• Read and answer tickets
• Play the game in search of bugs (basically Q&A) when large updates happen/upcoming content (ie: I think it was Megan playing various times The War Within up to release?)
• ... and whatever I can't think of or I am forgetting, 100% sure I am.

So what does suffer by this? Website care (which is better handled now, but still) -> Forum care -> Linked systems care -> Non critical bugs collecting -> Who the heck knows.

It's only normal they can't handle it. The game has evolved so much and become a Behemoth! When it was 2013, I remember Rebecca, Megan and Drew going through the various subs, posting more often, chasing smaller bugs as well, responding PMs in a timely manner when they were able (usually a couple days delay).

But now the playerbase has gone from thousands to millions. I don't know how the team handles the various inboxes (including the Community one), but I am sure it ain't as efficient as they wish it was. Pretty sure they do their best with what hands they have, even if sometimes even I myself give unto the sheer frustration and don't consider it when posting.

Only George seems to be able to keep up with it. Kudos to George, gotta love him 😛

 

I disagree on the transparency (just based on what I've seen on their topics when feedback is posted in them regarding the forums), but agree on pretty much all other areas, especially with George.

 

Edit:

This is going out to the stalker of this topic that apparently doesn't have anything valid to actually say and just likes to spam that "HaHa" emote... remember, each time you do that it still counts as an upvote, lol.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Sean

[NightmareT12]

6 minutes ago, Sean said:

I disagree on the transparency (just based on what I've seen on their topics when feedback is posted in them regarding the forums), but agree on pretty much all other areas, especially with George.

Forgot to tackle the transperency bit (started typing and flew away :P) -- what I mean is, I don't think they are intentionally shady, I think it's just some sort of "structural lack of transperency" due the reasons exposed above. They definitely have an intention of being transperent though (we can then discuss if it's better, has a margin of improvement, is enough, etc.), and, without wanting to dismerit the rest of the team, it's pretty obvious on Rebecca (last year's Sunday "hey I literally just came back from vacation, what is this, game ain't dying we've got updates don't panic, love!" post is living proof of that).

Not saying it can't change, or they don't need to, or they shouldn't tackle it, but those factors should be taken into account and it's easy to forget them because we're not literally behind their screens.

Edited April 10, 2019 by NightmareT12

[Sean]

1 minute ago, NightmareT12 said:

Forgot to tackle the transperency bit (started typing and flew away :P) -- what I mean is, I don't think they are intentionally shady, I think it's just some sort of "structural lack of transperency" due the reasons exposed above. They definitely have an intention of being transperent though (we can then discuss if it's better, has a margin of improvement, etc.), and, without wanting to dismerit the rest of the team, it's pretty obvious on Rebecca (last year's Sunday "hey I literally just came back from vacation, what is this, game ain't dying we've got updates don't panic, love!" post is living proof of that).

Not saying it can't change, or they don't need to, or they shouldn't tackle it, but those factors should be taken into account and it's easy to forget them because we're not literally behind their screens.

 

Definitely agree, that's why I even made this topic, just to point out that there is room for improvement and try to establish more of a "dialogue" on the subject.

I only want things to improve and I bet the majority of the people that use the forums also feel the same (even if there isn't always agreement).

[Basalto]

 

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

Just because there are issues, doesn't mean they require any attention. Present feedback, don't expect a pat on the head for doing so. Don't presume they agree with you that a given issue is an issue.

Take the Dark Theme issue you mentioned. Making it dark might compromise usability. Maybe the control they used doesn't have theming. Maybe it's just not a priority.

If "it might compromise usability" was an actual argument, Warframe wouldn't have had a single update since... well, forever. Every major update compromises usability and DE fixes it (or not, as I've had the unfortunate pleasure of experiencing several times in bugs that break missions that are literal years old) later on. Why should it be different for a website? Do you get up to get water in the kitchen, or do you dismiss your thirst with "I might trip and fall, so might as well not do it"?

[CpT-LaZeR]

Just want to throw in that this forum isnt made by Digital Extremes. 

Its bought/rented from a 3rd party company called Invision Community.

DE cant just change it to theyre/our personal prefences.

 

[Sean]

1 hour ago, CpT-LaZeR said:

Just want to throw in that this forum isnt made by Digital Extremes. 

Its bought/rented from a 3rd party company called Invision Community.

DE cant just change it to theyre/our personal prefences.

 

 

I don't think you know what Invision Community is.

It is the company that owns IP Board.

 

It is fairly easy to pay for a license, then set it up, and from there within the Admin Control Panel you can edit the CSS of the forum you are an administrator of. I personally prefer Xenforo, but IP Board, which is what DE uses, is a decent 2nd place. Much better than the abysmal Discourse (not Discord) that some companies have begun using.

 

If you want more information on Invision Community and their IP Board software, then here's a link.

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, CpT-LaZeR said:

DE cant just change it to theyre/our personal prefences.

If that were true staff wouldn't have personal banners nor would we have Warframe specific upvotes.

DE have more control over these forums than what you seem to be implying, which is that they have no control at all. They absolutely can alter it to suit them.

Edited April 10, 2019 by DeMonkey