Uncooperative Multiplayer Shooter

[shootaman777]

14 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Stoop to their level and play like the rest of the press-4-to-win abusers, you mean?

Again, you're trying to compare obviously broken frames like Saryn, Mesa, Volt, and Equinox, all of which delete everything in a second 50 meters away, to frames that don't. The only one of those requires line of sight, and that's still not enough if you take the time and see videos and gifs of them spinning like mad to hit everything. Banshee got nerfed pretty hard, (nerfed) Ember no longer trivializes the game, Excalibur's 4 got nerfed by being moved to 3 and replaced with an exalted weapon that only kills things in a straight line. Nezha spears are nowhere near as nuke as the first four frames I mentioned in the first sentence. Wukong just has a staff with long reach, but still obeys LoS and only attacks things in front and around you, but not above or below like Saryn's 4 can.

So, either stoop to the same level as press-4-to-win abusers, or play frames you don't like to be their little boost slave? That's all I'm getting from your argument to justify why broken frames shouldn't be nerfed.

"No! You play by my rules, by my frame! I don't care if you wanted to play Vauban and he's your favorite, you should've thought about that before matching into my team! Next time, play Trinity and feed me more energy to spam Miasma with!"
That's how you come off. That's not how the game's supposed to be played.

Just a reminder, you were the one making the slippery slope claim. That means you were comparing several frames to the ones people want nerfed, because they are trivializing the game.

Going back to one of the examples I used earlier, Garuda's infinite-scaling AoEs can't compete with Saryn, because the range is severely limited and has to channel which leaves her vulnerable to getting killed, but you were the one saying we will also want her nerfed next by inciting that fallacy.

No, dude. Only Saryn should be nerfed. Saryn, Mesa, Equinox, and Volt. They're the ones that are deleting entire rooms, not the ones you listed to muddy the waters.

But didn't you also suggest players should play these very specific frames, some of which you consider to be broken, or go support? That's pretty counter to your argument that, somehow, not nerfing the 4 out of 6 top pick frames among high ranked players will encourage variety.

Given the chart I linked, nerfing would actually encourage players to run other frames besides the ones that are the most efficient at every mission.

Also, how is Ember an argument that isn't a slippery slope? Before she got nerfed, she was used all the time in non-endless missions, because her World on Fire destroyed everything she ran past. I couldn't go a single invasion mission without some Ember in the team punch the ground then "Gotta go fast!" all the way to the objective, leaving nothing but dead enemies in her wake. She had a good reason to be nerfed, because she was being used for close to everything to speed through missions, which also had the consequence of leaving teammates bored out of their gourds.

 

Let's take this in order, shall we? 

 

"Stoop to their level and play like the rest of the press-4-to-win abusers, you mean?

Again, you're trying to compare obviously broken frames like Saryn, Mesa, Volt, and Equinox, all of which delete everything in a second 50 meters away, to frames that don't. The only one of those requires line of sight, and that's still not enough if you take the time and see videos and gifs of them spinning like mad to hit everything. Banshee got nerfed pretty hard, (nerfed) Ember no longer trivializes the game, Excalibur's 4 got nerfed by being moved to 3 and replaced with an exalted weapon that only kills things in a straight line. Nezha spears are nowhere near as nuke as the first four frames I mentioned in the first sentence. Wukong just has a staff with long reach, but still obeys LoS and only attacks things in front and around you, but not above or below like Saryn's 4 can.

So, either stoop to the same level as press-4-to-win abusers, or play frames you don't like to be their little boost slave? That's all I'm getting from your argument to justify why broken frames shouldn't be nerfed."

 

'Stoop to their level', 'press-4-to-win abusers', 'broken frames', 'their little boost slave'... Ideas based on a biased presumptions, with no logical basis. 

I'm glad that you don't know how Banshee, Excalibur, Frost, Gara, Ivara, Limbo, Mag, Mirage, Nezha, Rhino, and Wukong can still nuke maps.  At least you won't be clamoring for nerfs to them, too, and if people like you are who DE listens to for nerfs, that means we can hold onto them for just that little bit longer. 

The whole core of your argument is that, on star chart content (which solely features trash enemies, with a few minor exceptions such as The Index), there are Warframes too good at trivialising it by nuking everything.  And that's the whole point.  Anything that can do any form of radial damage can easily 1-shot maps of starchart missions, because the enemies are pathetically and notoriously weak, there.  On top of that, anything with a built-in way to move fast can also get to each room before the radial nuker and kill each enemy individually before the radial nuker can. So, your scapegoats, the 4 Warframes that you are demanding to be nerfed, are not the true issue. 

But, we're getting ahead of ourselves.  Let's get back to addressing what you're saying in order, shall we? 

 

 

"So, either stoop to the same level as press-4-to-win abusers, or play frames you don't like to be their little boost slave? That's all I'm getting from your argument to justify why broken frames shouldn't be nerfed.

"No! You play by my rules, by my frame! I don't care if you wanted to play Vauban and he's your favorite, you should've thought about that before matching into my team! Next time, play Trinity and feed me more energy to spam Miasma with!"
That's how you come off. That's not how the game's supposed to be played."

 

"play frames you don't like to be their little boost slave"... Ummm, hate to break it to you, but that's what a 'support' is in ANY game. 

That is how Warframe works.  You have 4 roles to fulfill in teamplay - healing/support, damage buffing/enemy debuffing, nuking, or CC. 

CC is currently worthless outside of 'stand around doing nothing to succeed' content such as Interception. 

Want to bring a Vauban to an Assault/Defection/Hijack/Interception/Mobile Defence?  Sure, go for it.  That's where he shines, even though what he does is give everyone nothing to do because enemies are all floating around in bastilles.  But apparently, it's only an issue when nuking Warframes do it, right? 

Want to bring a Vauban to an Arena/Assassinate/Capture/Defence/Exterminate/Infested Salvage/Rescue/Sabotage/Sanctuary Onslaught/Spy/Survival mission?  Sure, go for it.  Just don't be surprised that your CC is absolutely worthless towards the mission objective of killing.  And don't come complaining to me that, since another person brought a Warframe that is actually designed to kill things, that you have nothing to do when you chose to give yourself the capacity to do nothing useful, by choosing Vauban. 

Since the majority of the game is based around nuking as much as possible, as fast as possible, CC is no longer relevant. 

So, that just leaves healing/support, damage buffing/enemy debuffing, and nuking. 

You can play any Warframe however you want and be useful in any way you want to be, in solo.  But that's not the source of your complaint, the source of this thread is a supposed 'uncooperative multiplayer' game. 

I hate to break it to you, but you're the 'uncooperative' one in this scenario.  Exactly how you say the game is not meant to be played, is how it is meant to be played. 

Organised squads recruit around the meta that I've described in mind - healing/support, damage buffing/enemy debuffing, and nuking.  Occasionally, Speedva or Desecrate Bot is recruited for utility, but even those are just 'press 1 button to be useful', and I don't see you complaining about them. 

Public squads are merely inferior versions of organised squads that have no prior coordination. 

If there is no nuker in a public squad, everyone tries to pick up the nuking as best they can. 

If there is no healer/support in a public squad, everyone tries to pick up the healing/supporting as best they can. 

If there is no damage buffer/enemy debuffer in a public squad, everyone tries to pick up the damage buffing/enemy debuffing as best they can. 

But if there is a Warframe that fulfills one of these roles in a mission, it's not their job, to let you do their job, when you bring a Warframe that isn't good at their job.  It's their job to do their job, and they're doing it. 

There's a reason nobody recruits Vaubans, Valkyrs, and Garudas.  It's because they are not good enough at anything that a host would be recruiting for, where another Warframe couldn't do that job better.  The only problems with that, as I see it, is that there aren't enough places for those Warframes to shine, and that they could use a buff to be competitive with the clearly 'better' other Warframes.  They either don't do enough as-is, or don't do anything as fast as another Warframe can.  A simple rework update could shore that up quite nicely. 

I'm not telling you how to play your Warframe.  I'm telling you how you can be useful with that Warframe and have something meaningful to do, in regards to your squad.  Just because you choose to be useless, because you don't like the ways in which you can be useful, doesn't mean that there is some problem with the game itself.  In other words, you are the problem, in choosing to be useless. 

You're the one complaining about feeling useless and having nothing meaningful to do in a mission.  I'm telling you a way that you can guarantee yourself something meaningful to do in a mission, and you're just saying 'but I don't wanna'.  At some point, there's really not much I can do to help you, if you don't want to help yourself. 

 

 

"Just a reminder, you were the one making the slippery slope claim. That means you were comparing several frames to the ones people want nerfed, because they are trivializing the game."

 

I originally did not make the 'slippery slope' argument, and was merely adding an example to someone else's argument.  Since they did not take it to support their argument to attempt to make it more defensible, and I am not in the habit of indefinitely defending claims that are not my own, you may disregard every part of that particular argument up to the point just before 'the nerf mentality' was mentioned as an afterthought. 

 

 

"Going back to one of the examples I used earlier, Garuda's infinite-scaling AoEs can't compete with Saryn, because the range is severely limited and has to channel which leaves her vulnerable to getting killed, but you were the one saying we will also want her nerfed next by inciting that fallacy."

 

I have played a good deal of Garuda myself, and will have to disagree with you on several of your stated points.  Firstly, Garuda is more tanky than Saryn, and has more sources of healing (I run a 6-forma Umbral Garuda).  Secondly, Garuda can levitate through the air while remaining mobile if she begins channeling her abilities (at least her 4th) in the air. 

Saryn puts a enemies on a death timer while debuffing (via removing armour) them; Garuda can kill each and every enemy in the same amount of time with a scaling nuke.  The reason that Saryn wins over Garuda is because enemies in meta missions that require nuking (E/SO, Hydron, etc), are so pathetically weak that the death timer reaches zero quickly, as opposed to the same lengthy nuke that Garuda would otherwise have to apply to each enemy.  Maybe after hitting level 300-600 enemies, the roles would be reversed, in that Saryn's death timer would take too long, whereas Garuda's nuke that was formerly seen as 'lengthy' would take less time than Saryn's nuke to kill enemies reliably.  In such a case, Garuda could become a part of a meta, but such content does not readily exist that requires this. 

 

 

"No, dude. Only Saryn should be nerfed. Saryn, Mesa, Equinox, and Volt. They're the ones that are deleting entire rooms, not the ones you listed to muddy the waters."

You, and most of the playerbase, clearly do not know how to use those other Warframes to their full capacity.  This is great, as I can expect to continue to be able to use those Warframes to such an end without people constantly complaining for those Warframes to be nerfed.  The Warframes you listed are the meta Warframes at deleting rooms.  That just means they're the most efficient.  The other ones that I mentioned are the ones people are going to start spamming if you have your way and the four Warframes you listed get gutted like Ember.  This is how the meta works - when the top gear is nerfed, people move to the second most viable option. 

I'm not muddying the waters.  You don't understand how games, and specifically how metas work, so it confuses you and makes you think the waters are being muddied.  This is very clearly shown by your saying:

"But didn't you also suggest players should play these very specific frames, some of which you consider to be broken, or go support? That's pretty counter to your argument that, somehow, not nerfing the 4 out of 6 top pick frames among high ranked players will encourage variety."

I never once stated that any of those Warframes were truly 'broken'.  Don't put words in my mouth, first of all.  I've only referred to them as 'broken' in passing, to you, to clarify to you what I'm talking about in terms you can understand, in an attempt to clearly not muddy the waters.  Not to support the mistaken idea that they are somehow 'broken'. 

Secondly, if you still think that nerfing the top pick Warframes will encourage variety, you clearly do not understand anything about how a meta works.  All that nerfing the top pick Warframes will do, again, is to make the next best Warframes at what those top pick Warframes formerly did, become the next top pick Warframes. 

All that your proposed nerfs would do, is put Saryn, Mesa, Equinox, and Volt into disuse.  And then you'd have the exact same situation as before with the next best options. 

<aside>

Now, this is where the other person whose argument I put the example of Ember into, would likely say:

And then there will be players; maybe not you, maybe it'll be someone else; who will be saying the same thing about the next 4 Warframes that become top picks.  They'll say the same thing as you did, with the same logic.  And if/when those get nerfed as well, the list will move on to another 4 top picks. 

And, following the logical progression of this, one day it'll be Garuda on the chopping block, with someone using the exact same reasoning that you did for the current 4 top picks to be nerfed. 

</aside>

That is why 'nerf it because it's good or meta' doesn't work.  That is why buffing alternative options is the correct way to go about addressing something like this. 

You haven't provided any reason that supports the idea that these Warframes need to be nerfed in the first place, either.  Them being top picks, being able to wipe maps, etc are not things that draw a clear conclusion of 'nerf needed'.  I'm still waiting to see something from you the suggests that what you're saying holds water. 

[shootaman777]

16 hours ago, Seeryx said:

"Nuke frame is not a problem, just do an X while Y on Z tileset with W level enemies and it's all gonna be fine." Yeah, there is absolutely no problem in nuke frames constraining the choice of other players by their presence alone. 

That was more of a joking statement in an aside, than something intended to be an argument... Geez, do people not understand jokes? 

Edited May 4, 2019 by shootaman777
Grammer...

[Seeryx]

21 час назад, Fallen_Echo сказал:

You know even if you remove all aoe capatable weapons ingame warframe will never feel like a coop shooter.

Not really? Warframe is not something that requires intricate teamwork on the level of some other coops, perhaps. But there is a difference between 'casual team play' and 'sitting on your thumbs watching nukeframe clearing map'. Former feels like a coop experience, latter - not at all.

[Seeryx]

12 часов назад, shootaman777 сказал:

being able to wipe maps, etc are not things that draw a clear conclusion of 'nerf needed'

Well, I see we have a fundamentally different understanding of game design. If 'press two buttons to clear map' is a fine example of gameplay for you, I doubt any amount of arguments will persuade you.

[shootaman777]

1 hour ago, Seeryx said:

Well, I see we have a fundamentally different understanding of game design. If 'press two buttons to clear map' is a fine example of gameplay for you, I doubt any amount of arguments will persuade you.

Thanks for cherrypicking a line and quoting it out of context.  It's not as if I said anything around it, certainly not over 2000 words or anything of the sort, right? 

But alas, it's not as if the rest of those words are convenient for you to address, after all.  And I wasn't even talking to you, to boot. 

But, if you're going to directly address me, I suppose that I'm going to have to directly respond.  Since you appear to have a habit of ignoring the majority of what others say and only address the points in their speech that you find convenient, I'll have to keep the reply brief.  Anyways, here goes: 

 

I was not making an argument about general game design (I keep my arguments strictly within the realm of Warframe), and it's not a matter of gameplay and what is 'fine' and what isn't.  People cannot simply 'press two buttons to clear a map' in actually 'difficult' content. 

What you're not understanding about the game's design, is that it forces players into low-level content over and over, by putting the best rewards and farms in that low-level content.  I don't know what you feel about it, but to me, (as an example) running 50 low-level fissure Exterminate/Capture missions per hour is burnout-inducing (Axi missions are low-level, as far as I'm concerned with my current gear).  But at least there's the saving grace of speed Warframes and radial nuke Warframes, keeping the mission short and making the only limiter to mission completion be my movement capabilities, leaving me with something to strive towards improving at, and giving me a reason to not fall asleep while playing Warframe. 

I shouldn't have to sit there individually killing trash and (more importantly) time.  I think that this (having to individually kill the same trash over and over) would be horrendous game design, more so than allowing convenient radial garbage disposal. 

In this case, radial nukes are not the problem, they're the stopgap solution.  They're the result of Warframes being meant to be more balanced in higher-level content that is not supported by the game with appropriate rewards, being used in lower-level content where the rewards are at.  Back in the day, more difficult content was readily accessible, and few people brought Warframes built for higher-level combat to lower-level missions, and people even closely guarded their secrets, builds, and metas.  It was truly a peculiar and counter-intuitive, yet effective response to how the game worked, especially with ye olde 'It's Wednesday, better nerf Trinity' mentality of ye olde Warframe community.  But those days are no more. 

 

That's only a third of the argument, the other two thirds pertaining to organisation's effectiveness, and the repeated introduction of mechanics that make organisation less necessary. 

The basic gist of those arguments that I will not elaborate on because I do not expect you to reply to them in their entirety, is that the effectiveness of a squad is and always has been directly proportional to their organisation (and in cases where it wasn't, such as with map-blind Mirage, it was soon removed from the game); and that Zenurik focus/Coaction Drift (paired with Energy Siphon)/the increase in ready availibility of Polymer Bundles for energy pads has made obtaining energy too trivial to the point that the energy system that was once balanced around needing an energy-provider in the squad, or running Energy Siphon and relying on energy orbs while hoping for the best, no longer has the same balance that it once had. 

But those are points for another time, to be elaborated on depending upon your potential response. 

[Seeryx]

8 часов назад, shootaman777 сказал:

Since you appear to have a habit of ignoring the majority of what others say and only address the points in their speech that you find convenient

That's me being merciful to the people reading this thread. I don't expect them to read 2k words and then read a 4k words reply to those.

Yeah, as I already said in this thread, if/when high-level content becomes the norm, stuff will probably be better. This thread, though, was made to discuss what can be done without revamping the entire starchart.

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

Meh, this is about what kind of game warframe is supposed to be.  Some say it should be DMC where you have to work for every single kill and some say it should be dynasty warriors where your not even really aware you killed something.

Then there is the farming reality.  The dynasty warrior stuff is better for farming.  You tune out and listen to a podcast while mindlessing doing nonsense.  It's farming it's not even supposed to be fun.  Anything that makes it faster is better.

But the game is at it's best in terms of fun when it's closer to DMC.  Ember and Equinox suck ass against edilons and orb mothers.  Needing to work for a kill to get a worth while reward is nice.

Reasonably you can't expect the game to always be at amazing DMC levels of fun.  That's why the farming stuff NEEDS to exist.

Long story short if you don't want high level player farming low level missions give high level players a better way to get whatever they were trying to get out of the low level mission.

[Caripillar]

On 2019-04-30 at 8:55 AM, Seeryx said:

The range is what needs to be looked at:

Didn't quote the whole section for brevity, but OP,  you're the first person I've seen who asks for adjustments with actual ideas and suggestions and not blanket nerfs so you're okay in my book.

I have little else to add that hasn't been said but thank you @Seeryx for actually taking a moment to think.

[Buttaface]

Not only does out of hand AOE cheeze spam affect WF retention negatively by boring the other teammates, and especially those crucial newer players on lower tiles, its novelty soon wears off with the caster themselves whether they will admit it or not.

1. Radial, killing AOE powers should be outright banned on the four lowest planets, Earth, Mercury, Venus and Mars, including fissures, other than in Nightmare or other non standard missions on those tiles. The instant retort that "well then the weapons will kill them just as fast." No, the other teammates will at least have a chance to engage -some- of the mobs, to -see- some of the mobs and get some kills/entertainment/sense of participation.

2. Remove the taxi "feature" from the game until players have completed the first four planets entirely. Ban trading until then also. This will make it far more likely that players will gain even a bit of competence in teamplay, parkour and map awareness before getting ahold of AOE cheeze.

3. Take the 20-30 prospectively abused AOE damage abilities and target cap, range cap, dmg cap, cone them instead of radial, increase the energy cost drastically, implement cooldowns, make all LOS. Lots of ways to skin that rotten cat carcass.

This would be a change for the good of the game that other games tend to get right out of the gate. Not so WF. This would increase the general skill level of the playerbase without much fuss at all. In more challenging, but not "pro skillz" games, players are taught early on the necessity of decent teamplay, parkour, map awareness.

WF teaches players to get carried, lvl gear they don't/won't use towards the false sense that MR is equivalent with progress in game skill, to get ahold of a cheeze frame, and then never learn team tactics, map awareness, parkour skills/juking, etc. Somewhere between "tough" team games' harsh penalizing of instant death when one strays more than a few meters from a well-coordinated team, and the current state of droolcup WF, there is a happy medium. WF is way to the droolcup end of that spectrum in its current iteration.

Anyone who claims "we need AOE mapclear to make the grind less painful" is a) not really enjoying the game but going through the motions, and b) in error.

AOE mapclear is not required to efficiently do ANY content in WF.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Buttaface

[Heidelgard]

Well when playing in public with a random team, the game is not really a co op, more like 4 players playing solo in the same map, so I usually don't expect much.

A way to create co op experience can be opening a little clan with your friends or other players that share your playing style. That's what I did and it lets me enjoy this game much more.

[000l000]

Le 04/05/2019 à 01:40, DatDarkOne a dit :

That may be because there is nothing and I mean nothing that FORCES players to play as a team.  Some might argue a cause for Defection and maybe Infested Salvage, buy I'm not exactly sure on those.  

Whether this is considered a good thing or bad varies due to personal opinion.  

I don't think that any mission rework would change how things work, when things get complicated most players can't survive much the brain overcharge - especially in shooter games.

Cooperative gameplay could be improved though especially with more incentive to play near other players. First such things as broken nuke powers, spin-2-win with broken range and speed, way too strong AoE weapons (Ignis, Amprex or even Staticor) should be looked at - and most certainly nerfed to make players really play the game, and not running through content while exploiting some broken feature to clean entire rooms without even knowing what you're really shooting at.

Second they should rework the affinity perimeter. Affinity is the best tool to make players play together so more XP, more loots, more damages or even limiting auras to affinity range could help. They could even add permadeath or disable the ability to be revived to players who are too far away from others.

Missions could be slightly changed though, when oxygen is below X % perhaps dealing damages to players who aren't near a life support would at least make some people play in the same room. 

One thing is sure though, this game is not much coop and DE definitely has a role to play to solve this non sense - They can't change people so they have to adapt their game.

[shootaman777]

On 2019-05-04 at 9:36 PM, Seeryx said:

That's me being merciful to the people reading this thread. I don't expect them to read 2k words and then read a 4k words reply to those.

Yeah, as I already said in this thread, if/when high-level content becomes the norm, stuff will probably be better. This thread, though, was made to discuss what can be done without revamping the entire starchart.

The only things that can be said in the one-liner-length post that you're looking for to respond to, are blanket disagreement or agreement, without going into much detail.  At which point, the response from you is either 'glad you see things my way' or 'I disagree and there's no point in trying to convince you because of <'x' arbitrary reason>'. 

Your miniscule responses that cherrypick points from others' posts to reply to are rather disingenuous, as it gives off the impression to anyone that only reads your response and not the original content being responded to, that the remainder of the content is irrelevant, which defeats the entire purpose of discussion. 

You make a statement/idea, elaborate on the details of the statement/idea, explain why your statement/idea fulfills whatever purpose it is designed to fulfill, and support the reasoning with examples/evidence.  That is how fleshed-out ideas are presented. 

That is then cross-examined by another individual to the same extent, which may include presenting other ideas (for which the entire idea process needs to be repeated). 

All of that is not done in a few short sentences, and if it is, the result can only be half-baked, as that means that some part of that process was skimped on.  While being concise is to be desired, if it devalues the content by cutting important parts of it out, then it is counterproductive. 

That's not you doing the people on this thread a favour (or being 'merciful', as you put it); that's you doing them a disservice. 

 

Your suggestion, as well, is disingenuous.  'High-level' content becoming the norm will have no effect on this.  People will still bring the most efficient thing they have to finish low-level, 'boring' content quickly.  And when, as your idea suggests to happen, the high-level options are nerfed, then nobody will play the high-level content and the same situation we started with is perpetuated. 

Players need a way of managing 'high-level' content efficiently (notice that I did not say 'easily'), but by virtue of being able to manage 'high-level' content 'efficiently', will always be able to cheese through 'low-level' content.  This is a result of (from a results perspective) copy-pasted content being recycled with minor tweaks such as those to enemy levels and scaling, being the entirety of the star chart. 

That is why raids were such a good compromise to this - they were difficult content that could be completed efficiently, but the strategies used in them were so incompatible with non-raid content that they were not used to cheese through that easy content. 

The inescapable problem and truth about the star chart is this; it is just copypasted content with different aesthetics and minor level/reward tweaks.  Unless it is revamped in its entirety to change that truth, we will always see this situation (the one you refer to as a 'problem') on star chart content. 

Even when adding other, non-star chart content, the same problems will continue to persist with the star chart, by its very nature.  It will just be less noticeable because some of the players that would otherwise be on the star chart, will instead be playing the alternative content. 

If your thread was made for the purpose of finding such a revamp-less solution, then I apologise, but it can never achieve its purpose.  It is, logically speaking, impossible. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by shootaman777
Grammer...

[Xepthrichros]

On 2019-05-04 at 2:49 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

I can say pretty much any node ingame from the void to the kuva survival its the same.

People are playing this game like its a shared instance shooter and not like there is a team they are in. If i wouldnt die from time to time to random stuff i wouldnt even notice my teammates because most of the time the biggest team interaction in the whole game is when you resurrect someone.

I would take this over the alternative, which is a game that requires all 4 players knowing how to use their stuff well, and if they do not, the result is a rise in toxicity, with people whining, complaining and making a huge fuss in the game's chat, in region chat, and on forums, over players who are clueless and don't use their ability or gun the proper way and result in the game being slow or deaths occurring, etc. 

 

Want evidence of this happening in the game currently? Just look at Spy. Sortie spy. Normal spy. People recommend solo play because public team play can result in clueless people costing the mission and overall unhappiness. 

 

I would go so far to say that the reason there exists veterans willing to taxi and carry newbies or players who want to power level at places like Hydron is precisely because Warframe allows easy win methods once you've obtained the right warframes and ranked up the correct mods with several tens of thousands of endo. Take away the easy win methods and you can expect a rise in overall smack talking and trashing between players, less helping of new players and more "to each his own" mindsets.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[shootaman777]

13 hours ago, Buttaface said:

Not only does out of hand AOE cheeze spam affect WF retention negatively by boring the other teammates, and especially those crucial newer players on lower tiles, its novelty soon wears off with the caster themselves whether they will admit it or not.

1. Radial, killing AOE powers should be outright banned on the four lowest planets, Earth, Mercury, Venus and Mars, including fissures, other than in Nightmare or other non standard missions on those tiles. The instant retort that "well then the weapons will kill them just as fast." No, the other teammates will at least have a chance to engage -some- of the mobs, to -see- some of the mobs and get some kills/entertainment/sense of participation.

2. Remove the taxi "feature" from the game until players have completed the first four planets entirely. Ban trading until then also. This will make it far more likely that players will gain even a bit of competence in teamplay, parkour and map awareness before getting ahold of AOE cheeze.

3. Take the 20-30 prospectively abused AOE damage abilities and target cap, range cap, dmg cap, cone them instead of radial, increase the energy cost drastically, implement cooldowns, make all LOS. Lots of ways to skin that rotten cat carcass.

This would be a change for the good of the game that other games tend to get right out of the gate. Not so WF. This would increase the general skill level of the playerbase without much fuss at all. In more challenging, but not "pro skillz" games, players are taught early on the necessity of decent teamplay, parkour, map awareness.

WF teaches players to get carried, lvl gear they don't/won't use towards the false sense that MR is equivalent with progress in game skill, to get ahold of a cheeze frame, and then never learn team tactics, map awareness, parkour skills/juking, etc. Somewhere between "tough" team games' harsh penalizing of instant death when one strays more than a few meters from a well-coordinated team, and the current state of droolcup WF, there is a happy medium. WF is way to the droolcup end of that spectrum in its current iteration.

Anyone who claims "we need AOE mapclear to make the grind less painful" is a) not really enjoying the game but going through the motions, and b) in error.

AOE mapclear is not required to efficiently do ANY content in WF.

On the contrary, AoE spam is the only thing KEEPING players of Warframe in the game.  Experienced/High-Leveled/Veteran players are forced into low-level content because that is where DE has chosen to place endgame rewards.  Running through that low-level, boring content over and over again is only made bearable by ways to cheese it, to get it over with quickly. 

1) Incorrect. The fastest player will get to and kill every enemy with weapons before the fellow Tenno have the chance to get there.  This leaves out everyone who doesn't have mobility completely mastered, or people playing innately slow Warframes.  I play Volt on exterminate missions and kill enemies way faster with weapons than any radial nuke Warframe can, without ever casting his 4th ability. 
So, then, what's your solution?  Nerf movement?  Okay, then what?  Nerf weapons with Syndicate effects so they can't radial kill enemies? 
Where does it all become a load of crap you made up because you were undergeared either by necessity (your inventory) or choice (choosing not to use your best option), and just want other players not to be able to play without being just as undergeared as you? 

2) I would like to point out, that a player can clear the first four planets in less time (less than a day) than it takes to reach the current threshold to unlock trading (mastery rank 2, requiring two 24-hour mastery test cooldowns).  So, you're actually suggesting that trading be able to be unlocked earlier. 
Removing the taxi'ing feature until then wouldn't change anything.  Players would just be taxi'd through those first four planets first (and achieve a record time, too), if another player would be willing enough to taxi them in the first place. 
The best way for players to gain competence in mobility, is to be taught to maneuver for maximum distance with a <bullet jump/midair jump/midair roll/aim gliding while sliding> repeated combination in the default clan obstacle course, and to repeat it until they can complete it in 40 seconds forwards, and 40 seconds backwards. 
This teaches them the basics - learning the maneuvers, learning tilesets, and creating ideal routes through those tilesets with knowledge of the maneuvers. 
Of course, they should also be taught to always sprint, to bind roll to another key (preferably an extra mouse button), and to stay as low to the ground as possible while doing midair maneuvers to be able to recreate momentum through rolls/bullet jumps quickly, as there is a limit to how many of each maneuver may be repeated in the air.  In my clan, we refer to the default obstacle course as the 'git gud' course, and do not lift a finger for a new recruit until they dedicate themselves to mastering this course. 

3) So your proposed solution, is to trashcan the Warframes with those capabilities.  Well, that's not helpful - it'll make players exclusively use the best of what's left, and if everything becomes equally S#&amp;&#036;, then variety becomes vanity and each Warframe becomes merely an Excalibur reskin. 
The level of change that you're talking about, would make Warframe no longer Warframe.  And every single one of the changes that you've mentioned have been tried and trashcanned by DE. 

Yes, Warframe teaches players many things that you find to be 'undesirable', but that is not a gripe that you should have with players.  That is a gripe that you should have with Warframe's core components. 
One such example, is the xp sharing mechanic.  When a teammate gets a kill, 25% of the xp goes to the shared player's Warframe, and the other 75% is distributed evenly across the shared player's weapons (the shared player can bring only one weapon to channel that 75% xp to a singular weapon).  However, if a player was to kill an enemy with said weapon, only 50% of the xp goes to their weapon, the other 50% going to their Warframe. 
This core system has delegated roles of 'nuker' and 'leech' to players in order to obtain xp efficiently. 
This is just one example, but I hope that you understand my point. 

OG raids taught players those skills that you've mentioned.  Everyone either did their job, or everyone else S#&amp;&#036; talked the useless player in question for the entire raid (or backed out and reinvited everyone except for them) because they weren't doing their job.  You know, standard MMO things. 

"Anyone who claims "we need AOE mapclear to make the grind less painful" is a) not really enjoying the game but going through the motions, and b) in error."
Then it's a good thing that I don't make this claim.  The claim I make is that "we need AoE mapclear to make the defence and Sanctuary Onslaught grind less painful". 

"AOE mapclear is not required to efficiently do ANY content in WF."
I would like to point you to the mission types that are 'Defence' and 'Sanctuary Onslaught', as AoE mapclearing is the only efficient method to complete this content. 

[Pizzarugi]

2 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

On the contrary, AoE spam is the only thing KEEPING players of Warframe in the game.  Experienced/High-Leveled/Veteran players are forced into low-level content because that is where DE has chosen to place endgame rewards.  Running through that low-level, boring content over and over again is only made bearable by ways to cheese it, to get it over with quickly. 

What?

I've been playing Warframe since 2013, and I've quit several times recently on account of the game being stupid easy with nothing to do for veterans. If anything, cheesing the game with AoE frames will only make the game more boring. Not only would it make it more boring for you, you also make the game more boring for other people playing with you who may be new. And here you are, carrying them right to the endgame where they, too, can learn there's nothing else to do once you've cheesed your way to the top and then quit.

I doubt DE's going to do anything to give veterans a proper endgame to justify needing that crazy amount of AoE like Saryn has, but that doesn't mean it should be kept and thus continue to trivialize the game for everyone.

[shootaman777]

52 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

What?

I've been playing Warframe since 2013, and I've quit several times recently on account of the game being stupid easy with nothing to do for veterans. If anything, cheesing the game with AoE frames will only make the game more boring. Not only would it make it more boring for you, you also make the game more boring for other people playing with you who may be new. And here you are, carrying them right to the endgame where they, too, can learn there's nothing else to do once you've cheesed your way to the top and then quit.

I doubt DE's going to do anything to give veterans a proper endgame to justify needing that crazy amount of AoE like Saryn has, but that doesn't mean it should be kept and thus continue to trivialize the game for everyone.

I've been doing the grind to get, gild, and max every combination of Zaw, Amp, Kitgun, K-Drive, and Moa.  As you can probably tell, I've run out of other things to do at mr27.  But, I digress.  I'm grinding resources, rep, and affinity like a madman.  And the places to do that, are at low-level missions.  I consider the entire star chart to be low-level, by the way. 

I don't carry anyone to anything.  I do my grinds in the most efficient way I can.  Solo for speed or technical content, pub for increased enemy spawns. 

I don't know about you, but the modular weapon grind seems to be a fair endgame (apart from the bullS#&amp;&#036; daily rep caps), to me. 

Plastid (~300k), Cryotic (~200k), Polymer Bundles (for energy pizzas for tridolons), Oxium, Cetus and Fortuna resources.  Plenty of Excavation Arbitrations, poly/plastid farms, bounties, fishing/mining, thumpers/exploiters, fissures, the odd daily/weekly mission, sorties, etc.  There's plenty to do, for endgame. 

We have to make our own endgame, since DE refuses to give us one when they can avoid it, and takes it away whenever we have one. 

EDIT: Sanctuary Onslaught was supposed to be an endgame, and Warframes like Saryn were perfect for that, until DE went and turned up the efficiency drain per second to be physically impossible to keep up with, due to enemy spawn delays.  Also, it's not a 'crazy' amount of AoE, and that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be kept, either. 

I've also been playing for just as long, since 2013.  I've gone on hiatus several times in Warframe myself, but for the opposite reason - for hitting seemingly insurmountable walls.  I used to play this game practically alone, and didn't know that mods could be ranked up for over 2 years.  So, while limiting new player growth could bring some sort of benefit, I think it would be more detrimental than anything else based on the quality of my experience.  After all, knowledge and gear are the only differences between 'endgame ready' players, and ones who aren't. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by shootaman777
Labelled in post.

[Xepthrichros]

56 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

What?

I've been playing Warframe since 2013, and I've quit several times recently on account of the game being stupid easy with nothing to do for veterans. If anything, cheesing the game with AoE frames will only make the game more boring. Not only would it make it more boring for you, you also make the game more boring for other people playing with you who may be new. And here you are, carrying them right to the endgame where they, too, can learn there's nothing else to do once you've cheesed your way to the top and then quit.

I doubt DE's going to do anything to give veterans a proper endgame to justify needing that crazy amount of AoE like Saryn has, but that doesn't mean it should be kept and thus continue to trivialize the game for everyone.

I'd choose mass deletion of boring brain dead AI enemies in a second over shooting boring brain dead AI enemies any day.

Prolonging boredom is not equal to fun.

[Pizzarugi]

7 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

I'd choose mass deletion of boring brain dead AI enemies in a second over shooting boring brain dead AI enemies any day.

Prolonging boredom is not equal to fun.

To paraphrase a character quote from another game that actually bothers to maintain player retention in the endgame:

"Your destination is more boring than the journey, Tenno."

[shootaman777]

1 minute ago, moostar95 said:

Until enemy scaling is fixed. It's best to play with friends or if you have none like me. Just go solo.

Playing with friends is always best, but....

>*looks around*
>*friendsearch.exe has failed to find 'friends'*
>foreveralone.jpeg
>It's_fine,_I'm_a_solo_player'.gif

[Xepthrichros]

8 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

To paraphrase a character quote from another game that actually bothers to maintain player retention in the endgame:

"Your destination is more boring than the journey, Tenno."

Solution, create endgame.

 

Fighting Hydron is not endgame. Whatever nodes we do for relic farms, that is not endgame.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Pizzarugi]

5 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

Until enemy scaling is fixed. It's best to play with friends or if you have none like me. Just go solo.

How would fixing enemy scaling, especially on a star chart where it matters very little which is where DE is trying to keep everyone at, stop players from abusing press-4-to-win powers? Most players always go for whatever's efficient, and frames like Saryn are the absolute best at it. By addressing enemy scaling, you only further increase the efficiency of the broken frames. 😛

[Seeryx]

4 часа назад, shootaman777 сказал:

If your thread was made for the purpose of finding such a revamp-less solution, then I apologise, but it can never achieve its purpose.  It is, logically speaking, impossible. 

You sure do like writing, but do you do the reading?

Did you read the original suggestions I've made? It's there in the last third of the opening post. They don't require the overhaul of the whole star chart. A few simple tweaks to the way nuke frames spread their damage without touching the actual damage numbers is all that's needed. It's that simple.

Did you understand the reasoning behind the thread? It's not about making game non-trivial. It's about giving a bit of a game to play for the other three players in a squad with nuke frame. Again, it's that simple. Saryn kills everything -> nothing to shoot at for others -> kinda boring. A reworked Saryn doesn't kill everything on the whole map at once -> something to shoot at -> fun. It's also more fun for Saryn, which actually needs to move around a bit. As a player who has 45% usage stat on Saryn, I'm all for having actual gameplay for her too, not just pressing a sequence of buttons from a static position.

Need to run through ESO/Def content extra fast after such a rework? Bring an actual team composition of two or three nuke frames plus Trin to work on the whole map at once, not a single nuker plus three leechers like now. I would also argue that a half-decent team can clear an average defense map roughly as fast even without nuke frames, there just isn't much point in trying now.

[Pizzarugi]

1 hour ago, moostar95 said:

Well, what are your plans that isn't just screaming nerfs?!

What other options do we have? DE seems to have little interest in having a proper endgame for veterans who have minmaxed weapons and frames. Buffing all the weak weapons and frames to be comparable to Saryn or Mesa would justify the powercreep trend, encouraging DE to implement more enemies and mechanics that are designed to interfere with your powers or outright 1shot you while possessing a huge amount of EHP. I dunno about you, but I don't want to see Warframe become a co-op horde shooter version of Path of Exile. I play both games extensively, and both games have the same problem where developers are willfully letting players adopt a "GOTTA GO FAST!" mentality, trivializing the hell out of the game, forcing them to implement obstacles that reduces or outright nullifies mechanics players utilize. The end result will be the skill ceiling and skill floor rising infinitely, where only certain builds and playstyles are viable and anything less is something you shouldn't even bother trying.

I don't remember who coined the phrase, but the quote went: "If given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of the game".

I only see nerfs being the only solution. Saryn needs her range reduced, Line of Sight restrictions implemented in her 1 and 4 to keep her from hitting every single enemy in the room and the rooms adjacent. Same goes for Volt and Equinox. Mesa needs a "reverse Ember" treatment, where her 4 is much shorter ranged and weaker, but gets stronger and shoots further away the more she shoots.

EDIT: Found the quote.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[shootaman777]

3 minutes ago, Seeryx said:

You sure do like writing, but do you do the reading?

Did you read the original suggestions I've made? It's there in the last third of the opening post. They don't require the overhaul of the whole star chart. A few simple tweaks to the way nuke frames spread their damage without touching the actual damage numbers is all that's needed. It's that simple.

Did you understand the reasoning behind the thread? It's not about making game non-trivial. It's about giving a bit of a game to play for the other three players in a squad with nuke frame. Again, it's that simple. Saryn kills everything -> nothing to shoot at for others -> kinda boring. A reworked Saryn doesn't kill everything on the whole map at once -> something to shoot at -> fun. It's also more fun for Saryn, which actually needs to move around a bit. As a player who has 45% usage stat on Saryn, I'm all for having actual gameplay for her too, not just pressing a sequence of buttons from a static position.

Need to run through ESO/Def content extra fast after such a rework? Bring an actual team composition of two or three nuke frames plus Trin to work on the whole map at once, not a single nuker plus three leechers like now. I would also argue that a half-decent team can clear an average defense map roughly as fast even without nuke frames, there just isn't much point in trying now.

Here's your OP (and yes, I've read it before): 

3 minutes ago, Seeryx said:

 

tells us the short description. Cooperative means everyone is participating to achieve the game's objective. But there are frames that make it more of a regular single-player shooter with a twist - there are three bored bystanders with you.

^{Yes, it's an obligatory "map wipe frames are not healthy" thread. I'm pretty sure it's an MR26 challenge, isn't it? I decided to prepare it beforehand.}

Map Wipe Frames or MWF for short. We all know their names too well already. Btw, I owe all of them, and two of them are my mains and favorite ones, esp. design-wise.

Maining them feels fine. You're running around, doing stuff, using abilities, killing tons of enemies, managing energy, etc. Agency and feedback, it's all there. The game loop is working, it hooks you in hard. Being on the same team as them with other frames, on the other hand, is... Not such a stellar experience. Yeah, you kinda-sorta can manage to kill some enemies before MWFs get to them, maybe revive them a pair of times when they get too overconfident or go get more coffee. Open some lockers, yeah... search for stars.

In short, cooperative shooter becomes a game of trying to find something to do other than playing the main gameplay loop of "shoot guns and use abilities to kill stuff". It destroys any interest in Warframe super-hard. Agency is lost as MWFs don't really need help in dealing with any amount of standard-content-level enemies. Feedback is lost. Sure, you gain affshare, but just like any freebies, they start to feel unrewarding real quick.

And this is the way Waframe becomes an uncooperative online shooter, pardon my stale puns. Regardless of how much you love your favorite map-wipers - and I myself love them extremely, having sunk hundreds of plat into their fashion alone - they destroy the gameplay loop for other players. It will keep affecting the health of the Warframe community and meta-game and will hurt its health as a brand in the long run. I love my Saryn, but I love playing Waframe more, and thus I'm fine with reworked MWFs.

On a more specific note, MWFs raw enemy-deleting power is fine. After all we're playing a power-fantasy horde-slaughtering shooter, not a tactical one. It is their incredible range and reach that makes them so capable of outclassing all other damage-capable frames. Like, I dunno, take Hildryn's balefire or, well, even Hydroid's tentacles. Both can shred common content too - but both can do it only one corridor or a part of the room at a time, under usual conditions. That's a good level of power. Impactful, but leaving space for others to play. Compare that to Saryn's spore, which can easily wipe the entirety of some tilesets, leaving others with nothing to do.

The range is what needs to be looked at:

Saryn. I have a hunch that the usual idea of making Saryn's spores respect Line-of-Sight would take waaay too much processing power. A lot of physical ray casts and those don't come free. But there is an easier way. Spores, when cast, will affect all enemies in a cone in front of Saryn and the spore recast is much-much cheaper in terms of accumulated damage, losing maybe 2-5% of it tops. OTOH, their own spread range is cut down to 25% of the current. This way, Saryn is quickly flying around a map, spreading waves and waves of spores in front of her to build up a good bunch of infected enemies and then wipes them out with a blast of Miasma. Pretty much the same end result, but with so much more to do and leaving a fair share of the enemies for others to toy with. I dunno about you, but smashing the exact same set of buttons from pretty much same position gets stale after a while.

Mesa. There is really little reason for Mesa to affect the entire screen at once. She'll be more than capable even with a minimal reticle - at an average distance, it still means you can just point in the general direction of the enemy and let the regulators do the work. With her near-invulnerability and excellent DPS that works well into sorties, that tame 'nerf' will leave her perfectly playable, while taking away the ability to one-spin whole rooms. Choosing positions where small reticle can be exploited becomes increasingly important, bringing more strategy into Mesa's positioning game. On the plus side, Mesa's Waltz can be incorporated into ability itself. It's good QoL, allowing Mesa to inch just a little bit over a ledge that unexpectedly blocks line-of-sight without recasting ability.

Equinox. I've never played them enough to get a really good read on their dynamics, but the easiest way to rework them seems to be changing their killing sphere to be a wave. Still capable of clearing the map one sector at a time. Wipe this part or that? Damage both quickly or wait for an ultimate wave that leaves no one alive? Just the perfect type of strategical dilemmas for Warframe: not too primitive, not too complex.

I'll recharge and think of Banshee and maybe even Ember at a later point because both pose way less problem in the current meta and I'm not too hot on applying the same cone/wave concept to all AoE abilities.

I'm telling you, that the entire mission itself (of Hydron, which is basically the content you're referencing in your OP, as those are the results of applying those nukes there), is boring.  The enemies there are weak to the point where, if I wanted to, I could kill them all efficiently with my 6-Forma Mk1-Kunai. 

Every one of your nerfs does what was done to Ember - reduces her overall effectiveness to the point of trashcanning her.  Perhaps with the exception of Equinox, and I'm not going to comment on that because I'd rather not accidentally tell you how Equinox's mechanics work so you can find a way to trashcan her, too. 

The main reason why I'm against your nerf ideas, is that it will increase the time spent in the given mission, while decreasing the rewards obtained per time spent. 
I don't want to be in that low-level content any longer than I have to be, and that's why I run a Speedva on such missions - to speed up slow enemies, increasing the rewards obtained per time spent. 
How could I possibly be in favour of ideas such as yours, that devalue the player's time?  As a player who puts my time into this game, I have a clear investment in the outcome of this. 
Map-wipe Warframes that kill enemies faster than waiting for them then killing them when they approach, inherently put more value in the player's time, as they make the player obtain the same mission rewards and enemy xp in less time. 

 

Your suggestion of what to do for ESO is pointless.  If your desired nerfs were to happen, there would be no point to bringing multiple, or even any nukers to ESO, as they would not be effective at nuking the Onslaught tiles.  The player's best bet would be running Speed Warframes to close the distance for quick melee. 
Plus, your suggestion is contrary to your ideals - bring 3 nukers and a battery.  With your suggestion with your gutted Warframes, everyone stands still spamming a few buttons, the same as they would now, with the same squad composition.  Plus, it would be adding insult to injury to hear Simaris give the player S#&amp;&#036; and adding cooldowns, for casting such garbage abilities. 

 

Firstly, for a thread titled 'Uncooperative Multiplayer Shooter', making the game 'non-trivial' seems like an unrelated purpose. 

Secondly, it's not that the game is trivial, it's that DE keeps creating content that necessitates the powerful Warfames we have now, but removing it and casualising it, leaving the players with only low-level content to do with powerful Warframes.  Every couple of months, or maybe every year or so, we get something 'difficult' enough to be called endgame for about a week, and then DE takes it away.  Two posts ago, I described how this was done to ESO, and that is the example that I would reference here. 

ESO is not difficult, and does not require nuking Warframes to complete.  However, it requires a max-level Warframe to be equipped to be allowed entry and has the greatest amount of enemy spawns per unit time of all currently existing mission types.  So, it becomes the best place for leveling weapons, which is best done through shared affinity (75% to weapons, as opposed to a kill with that weapon only yielding 50% xp).  However, killing enemies with a Warframe gives 100% of the xp to the Warframe, and none to the weapons.  Which creates another conundrum that promotes leeching (AKA either 'doing nothing' or buffing). 

 

Rhino is my most-used Warframe, from the years I spent not knowing that mods could be ranked up or that mastery rank was a thing.  So, I don't think it means terribly much, especially when most-used Warframes can be easily changed by AFK'ing in Relays, which counts as playtime for that Warframe, for some reason. 

[Buttaface]

17 hours ago, moostar95 said:

People are free to play however they want. It is you who has a damn problem. 

Thanks for the block quote, gets the word out about this glaring flaw in WF's design to more people. As for your empty reply, meh.