Uncooperative Multiplayer Shooter

[Buttaface]

5 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

On the contrary, AoE spam is the only thing KEEPING players of Warframe in the game.  Experienced/High-Leveled/Veteran players are forced into low-level content because that is where DE has chosen to place endgame rewards.  Running through that low-level, boring content over and over again is only made bearable by ways to cheese it, to get it over with quickly. 

1) Incorrect. The fastest player will get to and kill every enemy with weapons before the fellow Tenno have the chance to get there.  This leaves out everyone who doesn't have mobility completely mastered, or people playing innately slow Warframes.  I play Volt on exterminate missions and kill enemies way faster with weapons than any radial nuke Warframe can, without ever casting his 4th ability. 
So, then, what's your solution?  Nerf movement?  Okay, then what?  Nerf weapons with Syndicate effects so they can't radial kill enemies? 
Where does it all become a load of crap you made up because you were undergeared either by necessity (your inventory) or choice (choosing not to use your best option), and just want other players not to be able to play without being just as undergeared as you? 

2) I would like to point out, that a player can clear the first four planets in less time (less than a day) than it takes to reach the current threshold to unlock trading (mastery rank 2, requiring two 24-hour mastery test cooldowns).  So, you're actually suggesting that trading be able to be unlocked earlier. 
Removing the taxi'ing feature until then wouldn't change anything.  Players would just be taxi'd through those first four planets first (and achieve a record time, too), if another player would be willing enough to taxi them in the first place. 
The best way for players to gain competence in mobility, is to be taught to maneuver for maximum distance with a <bullet jump/midair jump/midair roll/aim gliding while sliding> repeated combination in the default clan obstacle course, and to repeat it until they can complete it in 40 seconds forwards, and 40 seconds backwards. 
This teaches them the basics - learning the maneuvers, learning tilesets, and creating ideal routes through those tilesets with knowledge of the maneuvers. 
Of course, they should also be taught to always sprint, to bind roll to another key (preferably an extra mouse button), and to stay as low to the ground as possible while doing midair maneuvers to be able to recreate momentum through rolls/bullet jumps quickly, as there is a limit to how many of each maneuver may be repeated in the air.  In my clan, we refer to the default obstacle course as the 'git gud' course, and do not lift a finger for a new recruit until they dedicate themselves to mastering this course. 

3) So your proposed solution, is to trashcan the Warframes with those capabilities.  Well, that's not helpful - it'll make players exclusively use the best of what's left, and if everything becomes equally S#&amp;&#036;, then variety becomes vanity and each Warframe becomes merely an Excalibur reskin. 
The level of change that you're talking about, would make Warframe no longer Warframe.  And every single one of the changes that you've mentioned have been tried and trashcanned by DE. 

Yes, Warframe teaches players many things that you find to be 'undesirable', but that is not a gripe that you should have with players.  That is a gripe that you should have with Warframe's core components. 
One such example, is the xp sharing mechanic.  When a teammate gets a kill, 25% of the xp goes to the shared player's Warframe, and the other 75% is distributed evenly across the shared player's weapons (the shared player can bring only one weapon to channel that 75% xp to a singular weapon).  However, if a player was to kill an enemy with said weapon, only 50% of the xp goes to their weapon, the other 50% going to their Warframe. 
This core system has delegated roles of 'nuker' and 'leech' to players in order to obtain xp efficiently. 
This is just one example, but I hope that you understand my point. 

OG raids taught players those skills that you've mentioned.  Everyone either did their job, or everyone else S#&amp;&#036; talked the useless player in question for the entire raid (or backed out and reinvited everyone except for them) because they weren't doing their job.  You know, standard MMO things. 

"Anyone who claims "we need AOE mapclear to make the grind less painful" is a) not really enjoying the game but going through the motions, and b) in error."
Then it's a good thing that I don't make this claim.  The claim I make is that "we need AoE mapclear to make the defence and Sanctuary Onslaught grind less painful". 

"AOE mapclear is not required to efficiently do ANY content in WF."
I would like to point you to the mission types that are 'Defence' and 'Sanctuary Onslaught', as AoE mapclearing is the only efficient method to complete this content. 

1. Wrong. Players stay in WF to enjoy the content of a casual horde shooter with lots of -weapon- choices in addition to superpowers. AOE cheeze nullifies lots of the former. Addicts keep slogging through something they don't enjoy. Would wager that far more players leave WF due to boredom due to AOE cheeze than do due to the necessity of repetitive grinding/farming, which as a matter of fact and not opinion, can be done just as efficiently with weapons... just with more immersion and engagement.

2. Wrong. No weapon will clear mobs that players never see or engage in even remotely the same way that AOE cheeze does. Yes, the fastest player will engage mobs first, but this is a good thing that encourages newer players to obtain skills other than radial power button mashing.

3. Wrong. New players not being carried will not "clear the first four planets in a day." That is such an absurd claim that I'm tempted to stop reading there, but procrastinating work so will continue pointing out the errors.

4. Wrong. Reasonable LOS/range/target cap/cone/high energy AOE damage skills is not "trashcanning" anything. Spare the hyperbole.

5. Affinity gain is not the topic and I nor anyone else mentioned that. AOE cheeze is the topic. Start a thread on the affinity mechanics if you want.

6. ESO nor defense missions require AOE cheeze to complete quickly and efficiently, nor is using weapons ever "painful" to people who signed on for a hybrid -shooter- with a  vast array of interesting weapons.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Buttaface

[Seeryx]

1 час назад, shootaman777 сказал:

The main reason why I'm against your nerf ideas, is that it will increase the time spent in the given mission, while decreasing the rewards obtained per time spent.

Ok, I got your main point. You need to grind as fast as humanly possible.

You seem to postulate that player's time is only valuable in terms of rewards gained per minute. I would argue that a much better, if subjective, KPI is fun per minute. Rewards sure factor in it, because it's cool to finally get that elusive Whatisit Prime Handle. But so does the satisfaction of actually playing the game - running around, shooting dem monsters, using abilities and guns. As it stands, nuke frames can leave others out of that particular gameplay loop.

1 час назад, shootaman777 сказал:

Plus, your suggestion is contrary to your ideals - bring 3 nukers and a battery.  With your suggestion with your gutted Warframes, everyone stands still spamming a few buttons, the same as they would now, with the same squad composition.

Absolutely not contrary. The suggested rework of abilities requires a bit of movement even in a squad of 3 nukers. And see, it ends up with the whole squad spamming their abilities, not 1/4th of it. That's the aim of the suggested changes: everyone plays.

[Xepthrichros]

8 hours ago, Buttaface said:

 

6. ESO nor defense missions require AOE cheeze to complete quickly and efficiently, nor is using weapons ever "painful" to people who signed on for a hybrid -shooter- with a  vast array of interesting weapons.

Exploiter orb is bloody boring because it is weapons only. 

There. I play warframe for warframe. Not gunframe. This is not call of duty in space. Disagree? Get out, you are playing WARFRAME. Warframe is literally the name of the game and their abilities should matter in every piece of content. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[shootaman777]

2 hours ago, Seeryx said:

Ok, I got your main point. You need to grind as fast as humanly possible.

You seem to postulate that player's time is only valuable in terms of rewards gained per minute. I would argue that a much better, if subjective, KPI is fun per minute. Rewards sure factor in it, because it's cool to finally get that elusive Whatisit Prime Handle. But so does the satisfaction of actually playing the game - running around, shooting dem monsters, using abilities and guns. As it stands, nuke frames can leave others out of that particular gameplay loop.

Absolutely not contrary. The suggested rework of abilities requires a bit of movement even in a squad of 3 nukers. And see, it ends up with the whole squad spamming their abilities, not 1/4th of it. That's the aim of the suggested changes: everyone plays.

When I am progressing to definite goals (that are not RNG-based grinds, but predefined grinds), reward is a function of time spent.  Nobody wants to do 50 hours of Exploiter Orb fights, or to mine for 200 hours.  But that's the reailty for me, trying to obtain all combinations of all modular weapons - a necessary mentality.  So, speeding it up is what needs to be done - not only to lessen grind time, but also to avoid burnout from repetitive content.  The same goes for leveling weapons and Warframes, grinding credits, etc. 

You say that 'running around, shooting dem monsters' is playing the game, but I disagree.  Playing the game when the game in its entirety is a grind (a grind to get and level gear to get and level more gear) boils down to just that - grinding.  Running the grind at peak efficiency, is then the same as playing the game in its optimal forme, and I can't see anything wrong with playing the way that best works with the game's mechanics, themselves. 

4 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

ESO is not difficult, and does not require nuking Warframes to complete.  However, it requires a max-level Warframe to be equipped to be allowed entry and has the greatest amount of enemy spawns per unit time of all currently existing mission types.  So, it becomes the best place for leveling weapons, which is best done through shared affinity (75% to weapons, as opposed to a kill with that weapon only yielding 50% xp).  However, killing enemies with a Warframe gives 100% of the xp to the Warframe, and none to the weapons.  Which creates another conundrum that promotes leeching (AKA either 'doing nothing' or buffing).

Bringing 3 nukers will be wildly inefficient for the nukers, when it comes to leveling their weapons.  They can not both reliably nuke and level their weapons at the same time, due to the way xp is earned.  Which defeats the entire purpose of farming Sanctuary Onslaught.  That one, dedicated nuker is necessary to keep the farm efficient, because fewer players are looking to focus farm than are looking to level weapons, but that's fine because only 1 out of every 4 is needed to do the nuking, and it all works out in the end since everyone walks away with what they came for. 

[Xepthrichros]

Warframe has no endgame  Solution by anti-nuke players? Nerf all the frames so that they all become weak at the current content and create endgame out of the current content.

"Genius" logic. So, negate all your previous hours played, farming all these frames, running bosses until you can memorize their quotes, hoping RNG gives you the parts, farming all the endo, etc. you want that all just trashcanned and made irrelevant. The stats on the things you worked hard to obtain, turned into rubbish. While prolonging the mission length time on fighting easy fodder enemies, i.e prolonging boredom. Really smart. Truly the best suggestions by the most brilliant minds /s

 

What all of you should be asking is REAL ENDGAME where. We can bring our maxed out gear, with all our full AOE power to bear on...

1) Tanky enemies who are smart. Whose movesets change up and may adapt according to what frames and guns we bring to the battle. So that the encounters feel interesting and fresh

2) Not ability immune, so that we can do more than just point and click at enemies (which is boring, and I did not sign up for call of duty in space, I signed up for Warframe, Warframe abilities should matter).  It will actually engage the full capacity of a Warframe and it will not be enough. Saryn should be hitting her 1 and 4, and enemies covered in spore and miasma shrug these off and sneer at us, and all these did was weaken or damaged some part of their health and another phase requires shooting and meleeing. The design should result int us hitting 1, 2, 3, 4, and shoot and melee, and use operator at times, to get through these. Whether this takes the form for different health bars for different components on the enemies, some components weak to abilities, some weak to guns, or just one huge health bar that goes from green to purple to red to orange etc. colors indicating phases of health vulnerable to certain approaches in combat, well, up to the creatives at DE. 

3) It should be rewarding for all our trouble. That said, I am tempted to make these modes NOT give much XP because whenever supposedly endgame modes give a lot of XP, people bring freshly forma-ed gear into it too, and start having trouble, and ask for the mode to be nerfed, while still hoping to participate, and the result is that mode becomes another Hydron

Edited May 7, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Seeryx]

5 минут назад, Xepthrichros сказал:

 Solution by anti-nuke players? Nerf all the frames so that they all become weak at the current content

Did you even read the opening post? Because it's really worth to read it before jumping in and fighting strawmen.

OTOH, I'm all for more accessible high-level content that doesn't require sitting in a mission for an hour.

@shootaman777 So, "don't do anything about nukers because I need them for my very specific goal of getting all modular weapons as fast as possible"? Is that what your arguments boil down to? The other ways to play warframe that are not so grind-oriented be damned?

[shootaman777]

10 hours ago, Buttaface said:

1. Wrong. Players stay in WF to enjoy the content of a casual horde shooter with lots of -weapon- choices in addition to superpowers. AOE cheeze nullifies lots of the former. Addicts keep slogging through something they don't enjoy. Would wager that far more players leave WF due to boredom due to AOE cheeze than do due to the necessity of repetitive grinding/farming, which as a matter of fact and not opinion, can be done just as efficiently with weapons... just with more immersion and engagement.

2. Wrong. No weapon will clear mobs that players never see or engage in even remotely the same way that AOE cheeze does. Yes, the fastest player will engage mobs first, but this is a good thing that encourages newer players to obtain skills other than radial power button mashing.

3. Wrong. New players not being carried will not "clear the first four planets in a day." That is such an absurd claim that I'm tempted to stop reading there, but procrastinating work so will continue pointing out the errors.

4. Wrong. Reasonable LOS/range/target cap/cone/high energy AOE damage skills is not "trashcanning" anything. Spare the hyperbole.

5. Affinity gain is not the topic and I nor anyone else mentioned that. AOE cheeze is the topic. Start a thread on the affinity mechanics if you want.

6. ESO nor defense missions require AOE cheeze to complete quickly and efficiently, nor is using weapons ever "painful" to people who signed on for a hybrid -shooter- with a  vast array of interesting weapons.

1)  Incorrect.  Do tell me who enjoys playing the Exploiter Orb fight on repeat, endlessly.  Do tell me who enjoys running Hydron over 1000 times to level crap weapons, while only using mainly weapons with minor ability usage. 
Your argument basically boils down to 'Warframe content is repetitive to the point of being inadvertently boring, so players should be forced to play less efficiently so their boredom lasts longer, or leave the game behind entirely'.  Which is nonsensical.  You call it 'immersion and engagement'.  I call it devaluing the time of every player, due to forcing the same missions with the same rewards to take longer. 

2) You're incorrect in multiple ways.  It depends on the content.  If we're talking about a Capture/Exterminate/Assassinate/Rescue/Sabotage/Spy missions where the mission is not static, then mobility will be more useful than radial nuking, no matter what the case.  With speed Warframes, I can outkill radial nuke Warframes, or make them irrelevant entirely (make them unable to contribute even slightly to the objective).  That is, of course, because the enemies spawn at a distance, and the first player to cross that distance gets to kill the enemies. 
Now, if we're talking about set-piece content, duration AoE weapon spam (this can be aided by Mirage) of weapons such as the Simulor and Zenistar, can kill faster than radial nukes, if applied liberally to maps. 

3)  Incorrect.  You're missing the point, something that appears to be a habit.  The same player who has another player willing to taxi them in the first place, would likely have that same or another player willing to taxi them through those first 4 planets.  Would it screw the people who don't have friends/aren't good at making friends out of trading for a longer time?  Sure!  But those people are not the ones we're talking about, here.  You suggested this as a 'solution' to taxi'ing, but it would only intensify the taxi'ing. 

4)  Incorrect.  Here's 6 examples of you being absolutely wrong: Ember, Mirage, Ash, Mag, Nyx, and Titania. 
Ember Prime sold for 900 platinum per set back in the day when the Axi E1 relic first became vaulted.  Hell, people were trading Ember Prime sets at the time for Maiming Strike, which had an identical price.  After the unvaulting, her price went down to 500 platinum, still a respectable amount.  But all it took was one nerf for her trading price to fall under 100 platinum, because nobody wants her for anything other than mastery, anymore.  Don't believe me?  Here's a recent post that I grabbed from trade chat:

It's not hyperbole if several examples of precisely what you call 'hyperbole' exist. 

5)  Incorrect.  Affinity farming is the most efficient place to use these AoE damage abilities, and the proposed nerfs would gut affinity farming.  So, this is the exact right place for a discussion on affinity farming, in the context of AoE damage abilities (where it belongs). 

6)  That's blatantly false.  'Efficient completion' in Warframe, is when the objective is completed as well, and if there is no quality rating, then as fast as possible.  So that's exactly what AoE damage abilities enable to happen in ESO and defence missions, where killing as fast as possible is the sole mission objective. 
A '-hybrid- shooter'?  What's that?  If that's apparently what I signed on for knowingly when I installed Warframe, then how come the term is entirely unfamiliar? 
I signed up for 'Warframe'.  That's the name of the game.  That's what I'm here to play, and that's the main focus of use in-game, not weapons; Warframes. 
The majority of Warframe's weapons are uninteresting.  Most are reskins of other weapons with tweaked stats.  And it is not fun to use a mastery weapon that is a downgrade to a better weapon in the player's arsenal.  Multiply that by about 300 mastery fodder pieces of gear, and you've got a recipe for guaranteed boredom x300 missions at least.  AoE damage ability Warframes help to decrease the time spent in boredom by using affinity share mechanics.  You call that a 'bad' thing, I call that a 'godsend'. 

[Xepthrichros]

2 hours ago, Seeryx said:

Did you even read the opening post? Because it's really worth to read it before jumping in and fighting strawmen.

OTOH, I'm all for more accessible high-level content that doesn't require sitting in a mission for an hour.

@shootaman777 So, "don't do anything about nukers because I need them for my very specific goal of getting all modular weapons as fast as possible"? Is that what your arguments boil down to? The other ways to play warframe that are not so grind-oriented be damned?

Your solutions are nerfs. So I strawman nothing. I reject all of your proposed suggestions. And offer what I said in the other post. Real endgame. Not nerfing current gear to make easy levels seem "difficult".

 

If DE can add real endgame modes, and make it clear these are meant to be for all of you who don't want everything deleted in a second, players that want challenging enemies go to these levels and enjoy them. And it becomes clearer what nodes like Hydron and other relic-farming locations are meant to be - easy grinding locations accessible to newbies and veterans alike, meant for getting basic loot and XP fast, so that they have the gear then to proceed to actual difficult endgame content where there is less XP rewarded but rewards take the form of other things - maybe kuva, endo, ayatans sculptures and stars, cosmetics, forma and special formas, potatoes, ephemeras, arcanes, completed fieldrons, mutagen mass and detonite injectors, certain rare mods, maybe more amalgam mod variations etc.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Buttaface]

5 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Exploiter orb is bloody boring because it is weapons only. 

There. I play warframe for warframe. Not gunframe. This is not call of duty in space. Disagree? Get out, you are playing WARFRAME. Warframe is literally the name of the game and their abilities should matter in every piece of content. 

Nonresponsive.

[Buttaface]

3 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

...

Nonresponsive, crammed full of so many fallacies not going to bother.

[000l000]

Il y a 5 heures, Xepthrichros a dit :

Exploiter orb is bloody boring because it is weapons only. 

There. I play warframe for warframe. Not gunframe. This is not call of duty in space. Disagree? Get out, you are playing WARFRAME. Warframe is literally the name of the game and their abilities should matter in every piece of content. 

Warframe is a shooter, deal with it. I'm definitely using powers on my Chroma while fighting Orbs so i don't get your point except you seem quite salty and not much objective.

Abilities definitely matter but they aren't meant to do all the job instead of you in every piece of content.

[shootaman777]

52 minutes ago, Buttaface said:

Nonresponsive, crammed full of so many fallacies not going to bother.

Your post was crammed full of them, and I had the decency to bother, with you.  I guess you're just not in this for an actual discussion - you're here looking for people to agree with you, or idiots who are stupid enough to disagree with no logical basis for their disagreement so you can thrash them.  And when someone comes along and presents an argument, you slink away and cover your ears while shouting 'blah blah blah' so you can pretend it never happened.  Thanks for enlightening us as to the type of person that you are. 

Just an afterthought, but if there are so many fallacies that you saw at the light glance you took at the post, then wouldn't it be quite easy to mention them?  How lazy does one have to be to not even type a few small details? 

[ShortCat]

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Warframe has no endgame  Solution by anti-nuke players? Nerf all the frames so that they all become weak at the current content and create endgame out of the current content.

Warframe struggles, precisely because our powercurve escalated into infinity. Whether you like it or not, nerfs are an essential part to maintain at least some balance and create actual gameplay. Many posters fear to miss rewards or spend more time for said rewards, yet this is not why games exist in the first place. You should actually enjoy what you are doing. If you "play a game" just to fill bars, then you effectively trained yourself to enjoy a Skinner Box and turned yourself into a sad Pavlov's dog.
To your suggestions.

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

1) Tanky enemies who are smart. Whose movesets change up and may adapt according to what frames and guns we bring to the battle. So that the encounters feel interesting and fresh

Smarter AI. Won't change anything, since we can disable AI on the whole map with a single button press. Nova's MP, Limbo's bubble etc. It can be the smartest AI in the whole world, if a unit can get stunned for minutes without any counterplay, any AI is worthless.

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

2) Not ability immune, so that...

You suggest fundamentally the same solution - "enemies should not die easely", however insted of adjusting Frames, you work on enemies. In the end you get the same result, because by buffing enemies you passive nerf Frames, as their effectiveness will deminish. Balance usually requires both: nerfs to overperformers and buffs to underperformers, as with this approach you can work on few selected outliers. Working only with one lever, aka buff enemies, makes it needlesly complicated, as you have to redesign the whole game. Whereas combination of both allows precise adjustments and reduces total workload.
The "color coding" you mention is actually already in the game in form of enemy specific damage resistances and vulnerabilities. We just deal so much overkill damage and brute force our way through defences, untill enemy lvls become rediculous. A weapon like Lato, that deals 30 dmg when you recieve it can make way over 1k dmg later. This is some serious number bloat.

5 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

3) It should be rewarding for all our trouble.

What exactly is "rewarding"? Is this a new mod or weapon? So that you can trivialize the game even more after you got that power up. Is it a cosmetic to make you look cool? What will happen after you got? Play more or will you lose interest after the Skinner Box becomes empty and there are no tangible rewards?
The only thing that can be fun and rewarding for a long time is a good gameplay loop.

 

[Seeryx]

 

 

 

 

3

6 часов назад, shootaman777 сказал:

You can play solo if you want to avoid radial nuke teammates, or can requeue repeatedly in public to eventually get a squad without them.  Just because a player wants to be inefficient, doesn't mean the whole playerbase should be forced to play in the same way as them. 

Please do read my posts and address the points I've already mentioned numerous times. For all your indignation, it's me who's actually reads other's posts. I could've responded with my own quotes for the last two pages already, really.

Efficiency alone isn't a goal for everyone. There is obviously a lot of people who want a balance between running the missions fast and having a bit of fun during it. You're solely focused on rewards per minute metric - for that, radial nukers suit you but don't think that the entire player base thinks the same way.

Nukers forcing other players into extremely specific modes of behavior is also bad. I play Warframe to play Warframe, not to sit on my thumbs while nuker clears the map. Is it that bad to want to experience actual gameplay?

4 часа назад, Xepthrichros сказал:

Not nerfing current gear to make easy levels seem "difficult"

Sorry, but can you explain how exactly would the game become harder if a single nuker will clear 1/4th of the map instead of the whole map at once?

[Pizzarugi]

11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Warframe has no endgame  Solution by anti-nuke players? Nerf all the frames so that they all become weak at the current content and create endgame out of the current content.

"Genius" logic. So, negate all your previous hours played, farming all these frames, running bosses until you can memorize their quotes, hoping RNG gives you the parts, farming all the endo, etc. you want that all just trashcanned and made irrelevant. The stats on the things you worked hard to obtain, turned into rubbish. While prolonging the mission length time on fighting easy fodder enemies, i.e prolonging boredom. Really smart. Truly the best suggestions by the most brilliant minds /s

It's silly to think that, somehow, adding an endgame will make the nuke frames go away. Endgame and endgame-worthy rewards suddenly won't make high-efficiency meta frames like Saryn disappear from the star chart, because they are still the absolute best for trivializing the game in pursuit of resources and finishing missions in as little time as possible. What you wish DE would do is an example of having your cake and eating it, too. You get to have your endgame, meanwhile, everyone else is having their regular game trivialized by people who only know how to press 4 over and over again.

Secondly, I doubt DE is ever going to give us a real endgame. Many players have reached that point a long time ago, yet nothing has been done. You'd think if DE really cared about veterans and people who went through the effort to do it all, they'd have prioritized giving them something to keep them playing. They haven't, they probably will not ever, and so you might be stuck spending the rest of your endgame days farming eidolon for arcanes to rake in that platinum. 😛

I said this on another thread, but if nerfing nuke frames turns the game into "gunframe" for you, that's entirely on you. The frames we want nerfed for turning the game into a walking simulator/AFK tally up to 4, in a roster of 39 frames. I main Nidus, a frame who's gimmick is entirely about spamming abilities to get stronger, but I'd still have several others I can fall back on if he got nerfed into the ground the next day.

11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

1) Tanky enemies who are smart. Whose movesets change up and may adapt according to what frames and guns we bring to the battle. So that the encounters feel interesting and fresh

Nobody likes health sponges, just look at the Wolf of Saturn Six. I personally like him, he's an assassin that you can't just laugh at to death, but there's plenty of people on the forums saying he's absurdly tanky and 1shotty. Hell, people are also complaining about the difficulty of enemies in Orb Vallis, who have fresh and interesting new abilities, and can actually take a few hits.

And then there's intelligent AI. Do you really think that's gonna happen any time soon? The game's been using simplistic horde AI for ages with no improvements in sight. And besides, you know how pointless intelligent AI would be in your ideal game where you can continue to spam 4 to make everything you don't like go away, right? All that effort to make the game "interesting and fresh", converted into clouds of miasma and spores, because damn it, nothing's gonna slow you down  from getting that rare mod at the end of a mission.

11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

2) Not ability immune, so that we can do more than just point and click at enemies (which is boring, and I did not sign up for call of duty in space, I signed up for Warframe, Warframe abilities should matter).

Again, having your cake and eating it too. That's not going to happen, no game lets players have absurd levels of power without some kind of speed bump added that keeps you from trivializing the game. The very fact that nullifiers, combas/scrambuses, ancient disruptors/healers, and energy leech eximus exist is proof of this. And if this game continues going down the path of ignoring glaringly obvious problems such as frames who can single-handedly perform what a full team should be doing, there will be more mechanics in the game that will be added to reduce or outright nullify your abilities. Corpus have that pretty much squared away, but there's nothing stopping DE from adding more to them before expanding to Grineer and Infested. Grineer are already getting new units that are resistant to your powers (nox and thumpers), it's already begun.

I'll bet you that if we didn't have balance skewed absurdly in the player's favor, DE wouldn't be adding more enemies designed to interfere with your gameplay.

And here's the problem with that inevitability: This is supposed to curb outrageous frames like the ones we want nerfed, but this has the added consequence of making the game more needlessly difficult for other frames that are nowhere near as bad.

11 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

3) It should be rewarding for all our trouble. That said, I am tempted to make these modes NOT give much XP because whenever supposedly endgame modes give a lot of XP, people bring freshly forma-ed gear into it too, and start having trouble, and ask for the mode to be nerfed, while still hoping to participate, and the result is that mode becomes another Hydron

Gameplay is just as important as rewards when it comes to the endgame, and Warframe is lacking in the former. Once you get your rewards, you're back to the same problem where the game has nothing left for you to do, so you get bored and quit. The endgame would need something that keeps the player engaged, constantly driving them to push themselves.

In my ideal endgame, I'd like to see something akin to Path of Exile's Atlas of Worlds be applied to Warframe via the Tau system. You start in the outer terminus of the Sentient-modified system by first acquiring modifiable rail keys, they're a rare drop, and each mission has its own boss you have to kill regardless of what mission type it is. As you progress deeper into the system, the rail keys get harder to run and bosses become more difficult to fight. And to make the mechanic more fun, they could add something akin to War for the Atlas, in that the Indifference (The Man in the Wall) takes an interest in the system and attempts to occupy system nodes, prompting the Sentients to respond by occupying neighboring missions to block off its expansion. Doing missions in occupied nodes results in more enemies of that respective faction spawning, including new bosses who replace the originals.

It's never going to happen, I doubt DE has any endgame planned in the near future. And if they don't, nerfs need to happen so you're always feeling challenged in the star chart.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[shootaman777]

5 hours ago, Seeryx said:

Please do read my posts and address the points I've already mentioned numerous times. For all your indignation, it's me who's actually reads other's posts. I could've responded with my own quotes for the last two pages already.

That's rich, coming from the person who ignores the majority of my points and expresses that they clearly did not read my posts, based on their responses.  It's not indignation, so much as it is my disappointment in you, as a member of the Warframe forum community. 

I tend not to reply to conversations solely between other people - I'm not the one being addressed in them, and I generally only respond when either addressed or responding to core content such as the original post of a thread, or similar replies to said thread.  If you would like something to be addressed by me, the best ways to ensure this happens are to put it in your OP and/or address it specifically to me. 

Additionally, just because I have read your replies on this thread that mention things you would likely think to be 'counterarguments' to my arguments, does not mean that I see those points of yours to be valid in the first place.  As such, until you direct them to me as counterarguments, it would serve no purpose to address them.  Plus, what's the point in addressing every word you say, just so you can turn around and say one sentence in response and justify it by saying that 'you don't want to annoy people on this thread with a long post in response'?  You've made such things pointless, by your own words and actions.  This results in lowering the overall quality of conversations that may be had on your thread, when you practically prohibit any discussions at length. 

Could you have done so, and responded with your own quotes for that amount of posts?  Let's see it, then - respond to all of my posts on the past two pages, using only direct quotes (in context) of yourself from this thread.  I think the better question at that point would be 'why haven't you already been replying with just your quotes, if the option was available?' It would surely save you some small measure of time on the little amount of typing that you do in the first place in response to what I say, anyways. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by shootaman777
Grammer...

[Seeryx]

@shootaman777 That was a very long-winded way to say that you don't want to address the two points I've presented to you directly. Let me repeat them in a very short form for clarity:

• Rewards per minutes is not a good metric to judge the game's fun
• Radial nukers leaving other players out of main gameplay loop is not good

I would also be quite thankful if you stop attacking me and start attacking the points I raise.

[Xepthrichros]

On 2019-05-07 at 6:29 PM, Seeryx said:

Efficiency alone isn't a goal for everyone. There is obviously a lot of people who want a balance between running the missions fast and having a bit of fun during it. You're solely focused on rewards per minute metric - for that, radial nukers suit you but don't think that the entire player base thinks the same way.

Nukers forcing other players into extremely specific modes of behavior is also bad. I play Warframe to play Warframe, not to sit on my thumbs while nuker clears the map. Is it that bad to want to experience actual gameplay?

Sorry, but can you explain how exactly would the game become harder if a single nuker will clear 1/4th of the map instead of the whole map at once?

The only people asking for nerfs are the minority on the forums. Majority of the players are in the game right now, too busy to defend the game from your complaints.

I also want actual gameplay. But fighting brain dead enemies, as you will find on Hydron, for the hundred-millionth time isn't it. I don't go to grinding nodes to expect gameplay. I go there to expect efficiency. And most people do. I don't know what kind of people you run into but in my region, it is common to have  host migrations or people leaving at wave 5 whenever the entire team is completely full of freshly forma-ed warframes and gear, or there's no nuker, or there is a "nuker" warframe but turns out to be actually fake, i.e. one of your type of people who is being  so-called considerate and therefore not nuking, much to everyone's annoyance, and so there's no hope of high efficiency.

Ok, "harder" may not be the best word. But it definitely is an exercise in boredom and frustration in the sense that you know you are gonna win, but it's just taking more time, when you know that it doesn't have to, and shouldn't have to, and you are just slaughtering stupid boring enemies. Not actually smart, engaging gameplay that is fresh with each encounter because the enemies are smart, or have slightly randomized movesets, or adapt to player load outs etc. Just the same old clumsy, lumbering Grineer, that sometimes trip and fall over themselves, and act cute by taking cover when it barely delays the inevitable and does nothing to protect them from a grenade-tipped arrow that is fired from a Corpus-designed monstrosity of a bow known as the Lenz. The Corpus also have their own idiosyncrasies but I couldn't be bothered to describe them at this point.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[DiabolusUrsus]

8 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

The only people asking for nerfs are the minority on the forums. Majority of the players are in the game right now, too busy to defend the game from your complaints.

The Forums themselves are a minority, so what's your point? If the majority of players never bother to argue against balance changes or complain about them... Maybe they're not such a terrible thing after all?

8 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I also want actual gameplay. But fighting brain dead enemies, as you will find on Hydron, for the hundred-millionth time isn't it.

Then you want nerfs, whether you realize it or not. How is DE supposed to create "actual gameplay" when players can instantaneously delete enemies as fast as they spawn and completely disable the AI of anything capable of surviving for longer?

Yet you also hate "gunframe," where abilities can't be used freely. So what exactly is this mythical "actual gameplay" you are talking about?

8 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I don't go to grinding nodes to expect gameplay. I go there to expect efficiency. And most people do.

Nukers are absolutely unnecessary for efficiency. Hydron to wave 15-20 varies by +/- 1 minute whether there is a nuker on the team or not. 4 players killing waves are easily capable of achieving a kill rate equivalent to a nuker.

Obviously teams full of completely under-equipped players will be slower... But that would be less common if players didn't expect to be carried through an entire mission.

8 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I don't know what kind of people you run into but in my region, it is common to have  host migrations or people leaving at wave 5 whenever the entire team is completely full of freshly forma-ed warframes and gear, or there's no nuker, or there is a "nuker" warframe but turns out to be actually fake, i.e. one of your type of people who is being  so-called considerate and therefore not nuking, much to everyone's annoyance, and so there's no hope of high efficiency.

What region are you in? Because my experience in NA doesn't match that at all. Just yesterday I had a match go to 20 with a so-called "fake Saryn" that used Spores to help mop up the remnants of each wave, but otherwise dialed it down so everyone could have some fun (and they did).

I have a lot more confidence that a group will stick together when I see a Sonar Banshee than when I see a Saryn or Mesa, and groups are - again, in my experience - far more likely to disperse due to latency than anything else.

8 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Ok, "harder" may not be the best word. But it definitely is an exercise in boredom and frustration in the sense that you know you are gonna win, but it's just taking more time, when you know that it doesn't have to, and shouldn't have to, and you are just slaughtering stupid boring enemies. Not actually smart, engaging gameplay that is fresh with each encounter because the enemies are smart, or have slightly randomized movesets, or adapt to player load outs etc. Just the same old clumsy, lumbering Grineer, that sometimes trip and fall over themselves, and act cute by taking cover when it barely delays the inevitable and does nothing to protect them from a grenade-tipped arrow that is fired from a Corpus-designed monstrosity of a bow known as the Lenz. The Corpus also have their own idiosyncrasies but I couldn't be bothered to describe them at this point.

"The game isn't even fun anyway."

Seriously?

And again, you want nerfs whether you realize it or not. Enemies with different movesets? Enemies which respond to player loadouts?

What difference do those make when the enemy survives for less than a second? What difference do those make when the enemy spends the entirety of its existence blinded, frozen, or suspended in the air and unable to use its fancy techniques?

That's right. No difference whatsoever.

Oh, give them ability immunity? Great, now you have "gunframe."

Your suggestions here are completely nonviable and largely ignore the root causes of the issues at hand.

[MirageKnight]

18 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Majority of the players are in the game right now and can't be arsed to complain.

FTFY.

18 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I also want actual gameplay.

Then something's going to have to be nerfed, no if's and's or but's. You want REAL challenge? You going to have to give up some power. Be it nerfs to mods, abilities, and / or weapons that are just a bit too good at what they do.

Edit: Maybe even energy economy needs looking at.

No, making enemies spongier is NOT the answer and neither is buffing AI. No amount of AI can counter absurd amounts of CC and damage. For an AI buff to be meaningful, our ability to trivialize content with frightening ease needs to be addressed FIRST.

18 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

The Corpus also have their own idiosyncrasies but I couldn't be bothered to describe them at this point.

Well if you can't be bothered to support your argument, then your "argument" in nothing more than an opinion.

9 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I had a match go to 20 with a so-called "fake Saryn" that used Spores to help mop up the remnants of each wave, but otherwise dialed it down so everyone could have some fun (and they did).

I thought I was the only person that does this. Good on them 🙂

18 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

I don't know what kind of people you run into but in my region, it is common to have  host migrations or people leaving at wave 5 whenever the entire team is completely full of freshly forma-ed warframes and gear, or there's no nuker, or there is a "nuker" warframe but turns out to be actually fake

Ah yes, the classic "I saw this a couple of times so this always happens." argument. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by MirageKnight

[Pizzarugi]

I've been thinking about this meme for a while now, so I decided to just get it over with and make it real.

[ExcaliburUmbra]

5 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Then something's going to have to be nerfed, no if's and's or but's. You want REAL challenge? You going to have to give up some power. Be it nerfs to mods, abilities, and / or weapons that are just a bit too good at what they do.

No, making enemies spongier is NOT the answer and neither is buffing AI. No amount of AI can counter absurd amounts of CC and damage.

Completely agree with this. There’s so many interesting places DE could take the game design-wise if they just dialed down the insanity imho. Player and enemy scaling both play a part here, but even if DE addresses that (ideally with a total mod and damage system rework), we’re still left with abilities that can prevent enemies from even being able to engage us in combat, let alone pose a threat.

[DiabolusUrsus]

34 minutes ago, FrostPrime said:

Completely agree with this. There’s so many interesting places DE could take the game design-wise if they just dialed down the insanity imho. Player and enemy scaling both play a part here, but even if DE addresses that (ideally with a total mod and damage system rework), we’re still left with abilities that can prevent enemies from even being able to engage us in combat, let alone pose a threat.

True, but all they have to do is balance energy economy appropriately to prevent spam. There's no intrinsic problem with shutting off enemy AI until the player is able to do it without interruption.

If the AI is allowed to act MOST of the time and occasionally disabled to relieve pressure that would be fine and actually make for potentially compelling gameplay.

[ExcaliburUmbra]

1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

True, but all they have to do is balance energy economy appropriately to prevent spam. There's no intrinsic problem with shutting off enemy AI until the player is able to do it without interruption.

That’s a great point, and I did overlook that aspect. There are many abilities that are fine in a vacuum until you consider how easily they can be spammed these days.

 

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

I've been thinking about this meme for a while now, so I decided to just get it over with and make it real.


Change that to "Pressed 1 and 4" and it would be more accurate 😛

Other than that, it's pretty spot on.