Ok, we gotta face it, these people are dead [Whole story spoilers]

[evilChair]

By 'these' I mean Ordis, the Operator, and the Lotus.

Ordis is dead. He has no body, not since he became basically the Orbiter's first mate. He is a set of instructions whose personality, the part that can live and develop, is suppressed quite well, despite the occassional "slips". Unless we give him a warframe to call a second body (which would be extremely dangerous to the Operator if his old hatred of the Orokin resurfaces from the time when he was Ordan Karris), he's going to be a personality kept on a mainframe bank in some kind of personality-stasis.

The Operator is sentenced to death, one way or another. After Chains of Harrow, we know that we will suffer the same fate as Rell, and that Wally is scooping out the Operators' sanities to use them as proxies. It's a slow process of corruption, starting with being a taunting apparition.

The Lotus as we knew her isn't coming back, even if we manage to get the helmet back on Natah: a lot has happened and the Natah-substrate will not be the same, and that will produce a different Lotus, one who would most likely be spiteful, cold, and alienated, even if not plotting a total Borg-style takeover. Oh, yeah, she too heard Wally (the helmet seems to have been protecting her just like the cryostasis was protecting the Operators), so she might be taking the same path as the Operators.

Basically, everyone who ever boarded the Orbiter will die or is already in some kind of state of death, and this includes Ballas (who introduced Ordis to the orbiter, inside the orbiter, got shanked by the Operator and Umbra centuries later), the Stalker (most likely), Hunhow (already "dead"; even if present as a sword).

[Genitive]

5 minutes ago, evilChair said:

Ordis is dead. He has no body, not since he became basically the Orbiter's first mate. He is a set of instructions whose personality, the part that can live and develop, is suppressed quite well, despite the occassional "slips". Unless we give him a warframe to call a second body (which would be extremely dangerous to the Operator if his old hatred of the Orokin resurfaces from the time when he was Ordan Karris), he's going to be a personality kept on a mainframe bank in some kind of personality-stasis.

So what? The ship is Ordis' body. Biological life can also be boiled down to a set of instructions with personality. If anything, in Warframe universe one's consciousness can live on after body dies (like cephalons or Silvana).

8 minutes ago, evilChair said:

The Operator is sentenced to death, one way or another. After Chains of Harrow, we know that we will suffer the same fate as Rell, and that Wally is scooping out the Operators' sanities to use them as proxies. It's a slow process of corruption, starting with being a taunting apparition.

We don't know that. We don't know what the man in the wall's endgame is or if he even driven Rell mad on purpose. Natah even says the Tenno were saved by the void. 

 

The Lotus might not be coming back, yes, but the rest is conjecture.

[i.Faust]

I only wish they would change Lotus' hologram to Ordis. It's kind of weird when Natah talks to us when farming Ropalolyst and then Lotus' voice explains to you why it's important to assassinate the target.

[evilChair]

Just now, Genitive said:

So what? The ship is Ordis' body. Biological life can also be boiled down to a set of instructions with personality. If anything, in Warframe universe one's consciousness can live on after body dies (like cephalons or Silvana).

We don't know that. We don't know what the man in the wall's endgame is or if he even driven Rell mad on purpose. Natah even says the Tenno were saved by the void. 

 

The Lotus might not be coming back, yes, but the rest is conjecture.

The problem is that Ordis has been "killed" in the sense that he lost his free will. Ballas brainwashed him when he transferred him into the Orbiter's systems, which is why I consider him "dead" - he has no personal autonomy, like a puppet. Inanimate after life, so, in a sense, dead.

I stand by what I said about the Operator, at the risk of being wrong in the future. In the same spirit, I'll also say that the endgame will be "either give up your void powers or become another one of Wally's limbs".

As for the Lotus, if she is ever put back together (she's dead if both halves aren't together) she'll probably loathe us as much as she'd love us. It would be depressing character development, but it's the best one since killoffs are cheap and trauma is king of the hill these days, especially after people got tired to death of carnage-carnivals like GoT and now prefer to have characters to take pity on. Also, having a broken family lets you play the heartstrings like fcking Paganini, and that will happen if it seems like the smartest decision to DE.

[evilChair]

3 minutes ago, i.Faust said:

I only wish they would change Lotus' hologram to Ordis. It's kind of weird when Natah talks to us when farming Ropalolyst and then Lotus' voice explains to you why it's important to assassinate the target.

I think DE introduced holo-lotus with that in mind in specific because it creates a kind of really twisted sense of irony between the detached but allied Lotus that we're used to and Natah, who is now the real thing. It's good, tight, trim writing, all used and nothing wasted.

[AugustFestival]

not all the operators are the same 

[evilChair]

2 minutes ago, AugustFestival said:

not all the operators are the same 

unfortunately, they are:

Quote

Palladino: By sacred shadow and righteous blood - Blessed Rell! Your aged Vessel is dust and your chains are broken. Be free!
Rell: Mmm. But the man in the wall. Who will... ?
Palladino: They will have to. All of them. They owe you this. We all do.

 

[FlusteredFerret]

30 minutes ago, evilChair said:

By 'these' I mean Ordis, the Operator, and the Lotus.

Ordis is dead. He has no body, not since he became basically the Orbiter's first mate. He is a set of instructions whose personality, the part that can live and develop, is suppressed quite well, despite the occassional "slips". Unless we give him a warframe to call a second body (which would be extremely dangerous to the Operator if his old hatred of the Orokin resurfaces from the time when he was Ordan Karris), he's going to be a personality kept on a mainframe bank in some kind of personality-stasis.

The Operator is sentenced to death, one way or another. After Chains of Harrow, we know that we will suffer the same fate as Rell, and that Wally is scooping out the Operators' sanities to use them as proxies. It's a slow process of corruption, starting with being a taunting apparition.

The Lotus as we knew her isn't coming back, even if we manage to get the helmet back on Natah: a lot has happened and the Natah-substrate will not be the same, and that will produce a different Lotus, one who would most likely be spiteful, cold, and alienated, even if not plotting a total Borg-style takeover. Oh, yeah, she too heard Wally (the helmet seems to have been protecting her just like the cryostasis was protecting the Operators), so she might be taking the same path as the Operators.

Basically, everyone who ever boarded the Orbiter will die or is already in some kind of state of death, and this includes Ballas (who introduced Ordis to the orbiter, inside the orbiter, got shanked by the Operator and Umbra centuries later), the Stalker (most likely), Hunhow (already "dead"; even if present as a sword).

Wow - somebody's a Gloomy Gus today. 

Since we've only ever known Ordan Karris as Ordis, thats no biggie for me. He's no different to Cortana or Andromeda (minus the holographic body), or any other ship's AI.

While somehow transferring his consciousness into another body is an intriguing thought, I don't ever see it happening, simply because there is no narrative imperative for it. He simply serves as a quirky sidekick.

Since the Operator is pretty much the focus of the entire game (without them, there are no warframes...at least ones that can be controlled) I'm pretty sure we're safe from Wally, or anyone else. We're doomed to remain edgy, mentally unstable teens...unless DE ever decide to have them reach adulthood (again, no real reason for this).

Funny, isn't it? Kids with strange, arcane powers are weird and slightly scary. Adults with similar powers are superheroes (or villians).

 

I still believe we will find a way to separate Lotus / Natah from her family, stick that big ol' helmet on her pretty head and get our SpaceMom back. Admittedly there are a few different ways DE could play this, but since I'm a bit sentimental, (and because Canadians like happy endings), I'd like to think this is how it will go.

 

[i.Faust]

2 minutes ago, evilChair said:

I think DE introduced holo-lotus with that in mind in specific because it creates a kind of really twisted sense of irony between the detached but allied Lotus that we're used to and Natah, who is now the real thing. It's good, tight, trim writing, all used and nothing wasted.

It was somewhat okay before, we were confused about why she left and we needed something to cope with our loss, we needed to feel that she was still with us.

But now that the story has progressed and from what we were told, I find it weird to hear her voice as someone who is on "our side" but that's just me. xD

[Kyoresh]

16 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

still believe we will find a way to separate Lotus / Natah from her family, stick that big ol' helmet on her pretty head and get our SpaceMom back. Admittedly there are a few different ways DE could play this, but since I'm a bit sentimental, (and because Canadians like happy endings), I'd like to think this is how it will go

honestly, that wouldnt be a Happy Ending. Seperating her from her family, brain washing her and pretending everything is like it used to be, isnt what I would Call a Happy ending

[-Temp0-]

Nothing you wrote makes any sense.

Also couldnt care if Lotus actually died but that wont happen 99% sure. Shes been annoying as hell, especially lately.

[evilChair]

Just now, Kyoresh said:

honestly, that wouldnt be a Happy Ending. Seperating her from her family, brain washing her and pretending everything is like it used to be, isnt what I would Call a Happy ending

Yeah, it's a creep move. Literally the same thing that the helmet-maker and MOTHER did. Natah has to become Lotus again with her own consent, but that will mean that we won't have a Lotus who's as nice as she used to be. Any new Lotus will be a bitter, scathing ice queen.

[Ham_Grenabe]

1 hour ago, evilChair said:

...and the Lotus.

Do you promise? It's about time we got rid of her. 

[FlusteredFerret]

3 minutes ago, Kyoresh said:

honestly, that wouldnt be a Happy Ending. Seperating her from her family, brain washing her and pretending everything is like it used to be, isnt what I would Call a Happy ending

Well something caused Natah to take pity on the Tenno kids in the first place and led her to hide us inside a moon, inside the Void. From what we know she did that of her own volition.

The "brainwashing" and her taking on the character of Lotus was due to Ballas IIRC, with the helmet being used to subdue Natah's own consciousness.

Its also clear her parents are able to exert their influence over her, making her revert to her original state...so there's been brainwashing on both sides.

Maybe the helmet could be modified, allowing her to retain her own personality and freeing her from the influence of the other Sentients?

 

In any case, I was talking about a happy ending for us, not the Sentients. 

[FlusteredFerret]

6 minutes ago, evilChair said:

Yeah, it's a creep move. Literally the same thing that the helmet-maker and MOTHER did. Natah has to become Lotus again with her own consent, but that will mean that we won't have a Lotus who's as nice as she used to be. Any new Lotus will be a bitter, scathing ice queen.

I highly doubt a "bitter, scathing ice queen" would have taken the risks she did to hide the Tenno in the first place.

I agree that her consenting to become Lotus again, of her own free will, should be shown in a cut scene, if thats the way it goes. If she becomes SpaceMom again, it has to be her choice. If not and she chooses to remain as Natah, then I guess lots of folks will get their wish.

 

[AtsiaZ]

38 minutes ago, evilChair said:

The problem is that Ordis has been "killed" in the sense that he lost his free will. Ballas brainwashed him when he transferred him into the Orbiter's systems, which is why I consider him "dead" - he has no personal autonomy, like a puppet. Inanimate after life, so, in a sense, dead. 

Maybe at first, but I disagree since by this point, Ordis chooses to be what he is and stay with us. We're shown he can return to his original personality, but he doesn't want to be that person anymore. He didn't want to be that person when he was Ordan. He HATED himself, and has grown to properly care about the Tenno, has outgrown his original programming. He could've left with Simaris, and he still rather would be with us. He may not have his original personality, but he's developed a completely new one he do much prefers. Ordis is as alive as anyone else.

[evilChair]

Just now, Ham_Grenabe said:

Do you promise? It's about time we got rid of her. 

She's already ~(dead), stop being optimistic. Natah isn't the Lotus. Without the helmet she isn't even close to being the Lotus. To have a Lotus, you need a helmet and you need Natah (since she seems to be the only creature that's compatible with it). The existences of the Lotus and Natah are mutually exclusive (only one personality can be "alive" at any given time) and that's been established ever since Hunhow first spoke.

[evilChair]

3 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

I highly doubt a "bitter, scathing ice queen" would have taken the risks she did to hide the Tenno in the first place.

I agree that her consenting to become Lotus again, of her own free will, should be shown in a cut scene, if thats the way it goes. If she becomes SpaceMom again, it has to be her choice. If not and she chooses to remain as Natah, then I guess lots of folks will get their wish.

I meant that she wouldn't be as nice and warm as she used to be like in the end of TSD. She's regained a lot of memories and even if she consents to taking up being the Lotus again, she will have become a different person. In the new boss fight she's already showing some kind of mental incoherence in her transmissions to us and snapping out of that might leave her with trauma and resentment that she didn't have before.

2 minutes ago, Atsia said:

Maybe at first, but I disagree since by this point, Ordis chooses to be what he is and stay with us. We're shown he can return to his original personality, but he doesn't want to be that person anymore. He didn't want to be that person when he was Ordan. He HATED himself, and has grown to properly care about the Tenno, has outgrown his original programming. He could've left with Simaris, and he still rather would be with us. He may not have his original personality, but he's developed a completely new one he do much prefers. Ordis is as alive as anyone else.

You're right, but somehow I still feel as if he's... not there enough. I would seriously reconsider my opinion about this if I were to see a perspective shift where Ordis takes control of a warframe to save the Operator (Steve's been writing an Ordis-focused quest, so it's entirely possible), but that's probably not happening, even though he is capable of transference himself. (It would still be interesting to see Ordis trying to learn how to walk again after having no body for so long)

[AugustFestival]

1 hour ago, evilChair said:

unfortunately, they are:

 

I dont really understand the significance of your quote? All operators are tenno and can operate warframes but rell is specifically not the same as other operators, rell is confirmed to be autistic, which is great representation, but not all operators are going to be autistic or autistic in the same way as rell.

its a significant part of the store, here look, from the page you linked

Palladino: Oh, but not Rell. Margulis cast him out, for he was different. Our foremothers took him in and studied his teachings. We became the Veil. The shroud of his blessed existence.

Palladino: The Donda! His mother gave him this. Holy Rell was not like other children. Sound, color, touch... it overwhelmed him. The Donda's hum let him focus.

so you can relax, the tenno aren't going to die because of the man in the wall, I don't even think the man in the wall is evil.

Edited May 24, 2019 by AugustFestival

[Ham_Grenabe]

17 minutes ago, evilChair said:

She's already ~(dead), stop being optimistic. Natah isn't the Lotus. Without the helmet she isn't even close to being the Lotus. To have a Lotus, you need a helmet and you need Natah (since she seems to be the only creature that's compatible with it). The existences of the Lotus and Natah are mutually exclusive (only one personality can be "alive" at any given time) and that's been established ever since Hunhow first spoke.

Can we have neither? I'm so chuffed that Ordis is on comms in the new tileset, I can't even explain it.

[evilChair]

4 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Can we have neither? I'm so chuffed that Ordis is on comms in the new tileset, I can't even explain it.

Why don't you like character development?

[Ham_Grenabe]

4 minutes ago, evilChair said:

Why don't you like character development?

I don't like the Lotus (or whoever she actually is). I have never liked either of them - I've never felt like they were actually on our side; we're just tools. The Nidus quest sealed the deal. 

Edit: and to be clear, I'm not actually a big fan of the Warframe lore in general. It's an interesting world, but the individual stories are not that engaging to me.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[DrBorris]

1 hour ago, evilChair said:

The Operator is sentenced to death, one way or another. After Chains of Harrow, we know that we will suffer the same fate as Rell, and that Wally is scooping out the Operators' sanities to use them as proxies. It's a slow process of corruption, starting with being a taunting apparition.

According to this logic I am dead, you are dead, anything that is living is also dead.

 

10/10 logic, tell me more.

[Ephemiel]

Don't just skim the lore, actually pay attention. None of us are dead nor are we sentenced to death.

[Ephemiel]

1 hour ago, evilChair said:

The problem is that Ordis has been "killed" in the sense that he lost his free will. Ballas brainwashed him when he transferred him into the Orbiter's systems, which is why I consider him "dead" - he has no personal autonomy, like a puppet. Inanimate after life, so, in a sense, dead.

Then you clearly skipped all the quests where he's given a choice between doing what Simaris says or helping and saving us.