Ghost and ghouls. Nekros and revenant rework idea.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

Here a couple reworks ideas regarding I favorite would-be summoner frames that doesn't overhaul the kit...well maybe. A little.

 V3

Nekros rework

• Blood Magic (passive) – Nekros' abilities cost health instead of energy. Enemies have a 50% chance of dropping a health orb in addition to other loot within Nekro’s presence (affinity range).
• Soul Familiar (replace Soul Punch) - Nekros casts 2 familiars to ravage enemies for a short duration. These familiars will leech health of other nearby enemies healing Nekros and nearby allies (including Nekro’s Shadows) and curing any alignments. Downed allies will have their bleed timers extended.
• Dark Command (moved from my Revenant rework concept) – Mark a target. If the target selected is an enemy, it will receive a debuff that amplifies damage target receives; if the target is an ally they will receive a buff that amplifies healing regeneration. If shadows or soul familiars are active they will concentrate attacks on target or protect the target. Charging Dark Command will cause the shadows to rush the target and explode; if the target is an ally the explosion will be a heal burst.
• Terrify – cast fear into the hearts of enemies, causing them to run away in Terror.
• Shadows of the Dead – summons shadows of vanquished foes to fight alongside Nekros.

Augment ideas-

• Waking Nightmare (Terrify) – enemies affected by terrify also receive radiation damage.

Minion AI

Shadows – will seek to engage and destroy the targets with the lowest effective health unless they are in close range to another enemy, basically fighting trash mobs first, leaving Nekros to deal with heavy hitters.

Rework thoughts:

Shadows synergies. Healed by 1. Directly controlled by 2. Effectiveness also increased by 2.

The goal of the rework is aligning Nekros towards being an effective minion master – using enemy souls to heal shadows and allies. Then command a small army to concentrate fire upon a cursed enemy.

++++

Revenant rework

• Mesmer Skin (passive) - Revenant is enveloped in sentient energy, which redirects damage and stuns all enemies who attack him. Revenant receives a charge whenever he reaves a thrall.
• Enthrall - convert a target into a Thrall for a short duration. Charging this ability will covert multiple enemies into thralls.
• Reave (move to 2 slot) – the movement ability remains the same except whenever Reave passes thru a thrall it sacrifices, granting a charge. If Reave is charged, Revenant will sacrifice all thralls leeching health and shield and disintegrating enemies killed into pillars, each Thrall sacrificed will restore Mesmer skin.
• Twisted Beast – sacrifice all thralls and summon an eidolon remnant (kubrow-like eidolon) for a short duration. The remnants power and defense will be based on the number of thralls sacrificed.

• Danse Macabre – erupt with a multitude of beams and sweep a circle of death around revenant. Remains the same.

Rework thoughts –

Revenant’s minions are now a resource gain Mesmer charges or summon a Twisted Beast. Mesmer skin is a passive, so Revenant needs to work towards becoming invincibility like Nidus’ mutation stacks.

added. 

Revenant is missing something, I could not articulate it before but with all of revenant's synergies I simply feel he is missing a big payoff. This is why I re-worked Revenant in the manner that I did in order to make thralls a more versatile resource while trying to keep his favored functionality.

Honestly I feel we should work for our immortality and not simply press 2 to get up to 14 free Mesmer charges and recast whenever we feel like. I mean what's the point of reave if I can simply recast Mesmer skin (healing is too weak for any real benefit). So my rework he loses instant immortality and has to cast enthrall first and decide whether he will sacrifice thralls for Mesmer charges via holding reave, heal via tapping reave, gain overshield via danse macabre or summon a temporary DPS companion via a new ability. 

Previous ability versions

Spoiler

Nekros

Soul Punch – a blow so powerful, it turns the enemies soul in a deadly projectile. On charge, short range 180 degree blast that affects multiple enemies.

Soul Siphon – (channeling) drain an enemy’s health to restore Nekro’s energy. If an enemy is killed they become a shadow copy of that enemy or whenever an enemy dies Nekros gain energy conversion for a short duration.

++++ 

Revenant

Mesmer Skin (passive) – Revenant is enveloped in sentient energy, each charge makes Revenant resistant to most damage. Whenever Revenant uses an ability it consumes a Mesmer charge. Mesmer charges return over a period of 10 secs.

Enthrall – convert a target into a thrall, which converts others into thralls – each thrall consumes a Mesmer charge. Charging this ability will destroy all active thralls (explode) and restore Mesmer charges.

Command – Select a target for your thralls to either attack or protect. Thralls will sacrifice themselves in order to heal a targeted ally.

 

V2

Spoiler

Nekros rework concept

• Desecrate (Passive): fallen enemies or corpses have a 25% chance of dropping support loot (health, energy, life support or ammo) in Nekro’s presence.
• Soul Familiar (replace Soul Punch) - Target an enemy and enslave their soul for a short time. Their soul will swirl around other nearby enemies draining their heath and healing Nekros and nearby allies (including Nekro’s Shadows) and curing any alignments. Downed allies will have their bleed timers extended.

>>Soul Familiar works like Mesa’s Shooting Gallery except the amount healed is based off the targeted enemy’s health

• Soul Siphon - (channeling) drain an enemy's health to restore Nekro's energy. Channeling this ability stores energy that increases his power strength for a short duration and the damage of his shadows. If an enemy is killed, they become a shadow copy of that enemy. Nekros is invulnerable when channeling this ability.
• Terrify – cast fear into the hearts of enemies, causing them to run away in Terror.
• Shadows of the Dead – summons shadows of vanquished foes to fight alongside Nekros.

Augment ideas-

• Waking Nightmare (Terrify) – enemies affected by terrify also receive radiation damage.
• Despoil (aka Blood Magic [passive augment: Exilus]) – up to 100% of your max energy capacity is converted into health; abilities now cost health instead of energy. 

Minion AI

Shadows – will seek to engage and destroy the targets with the lowest effective health unless they are in close range to another enemy, basically fighting trash mobs first, leaving Nekros to deal with heavy hitters.

My Rework thoughts:

I kept Nekros relatively the same except enhancing his energy pool. I moved desecrate to the passive slot and made soul siphon in to an energy version of Inaros’ Devour ability – truthfully it makes more sense for the shadow copy to come from Nekros than Inaros anyway, Nekros needs another summon ability. Regarding desecrate I wished Desecrate was more than simply a loot ability, I wished it did something else and increasing loot gains was an after-effect. I feel Desecrate hampers Nekros in that same manner that (old) Defy hampered Wukong – restricting him to the farmer frame. It would not be so bad if desecrate sole purpose wasn’t to gain extra loot.

add:: I went ahead and tried to add a way for Nekros to keep his shadows alive longer without having to recast.

++++

Revenant rework

• Mesmer Skin (passive) - Revenant is enveloped in sentient energy, each charge makes Revenant resistant to most damage. Revenant receive a charge for every active thrall.
• Enthrall - convert a target into a Thrall for a short duration. Charging this ability will covert multiple enemies into thralls.
• Command - Select a target for your thralls to either attack or protect. If the target selected is an enemy it will receive a debuff that amplifies damage target receives; if the target is an ally they will receive a buff that amplifies healing regeneration. Charging this ability will cause the thralls to rush the target and explode; if the target is an ally the explosion will be a heal burst. Target marking will work even if no thralls are active.
• Reave- Dash through enemies leeching shields and health.
• Danse Macabre – erupt with a multitude of beams and sweep a circle of death around revenant.

Minion AI

Thralls AI – I envision thralls as insane when left to their own vices wildly going after anything until Revenant focuses them.to a single target. For concentrated fire power.

Rework thoughts –I moved Mesmer skin has the passive as I feel it would be interesting to utilize the charges of Mesmer skin as a mechanic. Each charge of Mesmer skin increases Revenants defenses; at full charge revenant can resist up to 85% incoming damage but every thrall consumes a Mesmer charge and lowers Revenants resistance to damage. So why use enthrall? Enter the new slot 2 ability: Command. The purpose of this ability is to simply control the thralls to concentrate DPS on a single target until the targets death or until a new target is selected; If an ally is selected then the thralls will stay within 5 to 10 meters of shielding ally from enemy fire and fire back on enemies that target the ally – if the ally is low on health then thralls will sacrifice themselves in order to save restore its health. Revenants other abilities are fine as is.

Add:: tweaked to make his thralls the principle mechanic that fuels Rev's defenses and offense. Each Thrall equals a Mesmer skin charge which equals a damage resistance point.

9

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by (XB1)Nightseid
v3

[tCartmant]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

My Rework thoughts:

I kept Nekros relatively the same except enhancing his energy pool. I moved desecrate to the passive slot and made soul siphon in to an energy version of Inaros’ Devour ability – truthfully it makes more sense for the shadow copy to come from Nekros than Inaros anyway, Nekros needs another summon ability. Regarding desecrate I wished Desecrate was more than simply a loot ability, I wished it did something else and increasing loot gains was an after-effect. I feel Desecrate hampers Nekros in that same manner that (old) Defy hampered Wukong – restricting him to the farmer frame. It would be so bad if desecrate sole purpose wasn’t to gain extra loot.

Frightful presence (passive) – shadows copies have a 5% chance to cause fear in enemies they fight

So, get rid of how most people use nekros using his desecrate augment with health conversion?  Its way more then a loot ability.

Big pile of no. You completely got rid of his most useful build.

[JohnLemon123]

Does nekros really need a rework though? 

The desecrate / health conversion / equilibrium nekros tank is one of the coolest and most unique builds in the game, and losing it would be a real shame. 

However, I definitely wouldn't be against some buffs. Make his 4's Augment innate, give soul punch some percentage damage (like Reave or smite), make terrify a bit more adequate and he'd be golden. But he's already quite good, so there's no need to go overboard. 

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

@tCartmant

@JohnLemon123

Nekros' Desecrate is still there, just as a passive and wouldn't necessarily take away from those builds except maybe the despoil augment because it no longer cost energy or hp.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

36 minutes ago, JohnLemon123 said:

Does nekros really need a rework though?

Yes, all he is is his 3. His 4 and 1 need for more functionality outside of their augments.

[tCartmant]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

@tCartmant

@JohnLemon123

Nekros' Desecrate is still there, just as a passive and wouldn't necessarily take away from those builds except maybe the despoil augment because it no longer cost energy or hp.

I said that. You clearly dont understand how that augment works which is why your taking it away. I am clear on what your doing.

[tCartmant]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Yes, all he is is his 3. His 4 and 1 need for more functionality outside of their augments.

Thats not a re-work. 

His 4 was better and they nerfed it. HIs one has never been that good, least in a more recent past and that could be adjusted/changed. 

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

28 minutes ago, tCartmant said:

I said that. You clearly dont understand how that augment works which is why your taking it away. I am clear on what your doing.

Then enlighten us.

[tCartmant]

28 minutes ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Then enlighten us.

Us? Your the only one who does not understand..

Don't re-work frames you clearly don't understand and now admitting you don't understand. 

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

Why are you reworking 2 of the most popular frames? They already rock?

3 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Desecrate (Passive): fallen enemies or corpses have a 25% chance of dropping support loot (health, energy, life support or ammo) in Nekro’s presence.

Soul Punch – a blow so powerful, it turns the enemies soul in a deadly projectile. On charge, short range 180 degree blast that affects multiple enemies.

Soul Siphon – (channeling) drain an enemy’s health to restore Nekro’s energy. If an enemy is killed they become a shadow copy of that enemy or whenever an enemy dies Nekros gain energy conversion for a short duration.

Terrify – cast fear into the hearts of enemies, causing them to run away in Terror.

Shadows of the Dead – summons shadows of vanquished foes to fight alongside Nekros.

This is a painful nerf, and turns the king of looting into a second rate summoner with sub-kubrow looting passive.

3 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

moved desecrate to the passive slot and made soul siphon in to an energy version of Inaros’ Devour ability

You nerfed his best ability and copied across Inaros's most useless in its place.

3 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Regarding desecrate I wished Desecrate was more than simply a loot ability,

This game is a looter-shooter. There's no such thing as "simply a loot ability". Any loot ability immediately catapults a frame into the meta. Desecrate is the best pure loot ability in the game. If you want more utility for less loot try Hydroid or Khora.

3 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Revenant rework

Mesmer Skin (passive) – Revenant is enveloped in sentient energy, each charge makes Revenant resistant to most damage. Whenever Revenant uses an ability it consumes a Mesmer charge. Mesmer charges return over a period of 10 secs.

Enthrall – convert a target into a thrall, which converts others into thralls – each thrall consumes a Mesmer charge. Charging this ability will destroy all active thralls (explode) and restore Mesmer charges.

Command – Select a target for your thralls to either attack or protect. Thralls will sacrifice themselves in order to heal a targeted ally.

Reave- Dash through enemies leeching shields and health.

Danse Macabre – erupt with a multitude of beams and sweep a circle of death around revenant.

Have you played Revenant at all? This is vandalism.

Revenant is all about Mesmer skin. It means he's immortal. He can shrug off self damage that would gib Inaros or Rhino easily. Why would you take it away?

His thralls are fodder. Temporary CC that causes chaos and keeps enemies shooting each other rather than you. They never last long and after you've got 7 of them they don't do enough damage to other enemies to be worth keeping alive. Make 'em, sow chaos, kill 'em, collect overshields, repeat.

And this is true of Nyx and Nekros too - enemies scale armour much more than damage, past about lvl 15 no enemy you control can do much damage to any other enemies.

You don't want to control/puppet enemies, because they can't hurt each other. You want chaos and crowd control.

In the case of Revenant his 3 does scaling damage to thralled enemies - Enthrall them, Reave through them, they die (and renew your Mesmer skin). This works even at insanely high levels. His spin to win 4 is just gravy for the mobs.

So we have the king of loot and one of the best endgame CC tanks. Sorry, but neither needs a rework before Vubahn, Nyx, Titania, Ember, etc.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

1 hour ago, tCartmant said:

Us? Your the only one who does not understand..

Don't re-work frames you clearly don't understand and now admitting you don't understand. 

I didn't admit anything, simply requesting you defend your position 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 hours ago, tCartmant said:

Thats not a re-work. 

His 4 was better and they nerfed it. HIs one has never been that good, least in a more recent past and that could be adjusted/changed. 

Improve and adding functionality to abilities qualifies as a rework.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

4 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

You nerfed his best ability and copied across Inaros's most useless in its place.

I would argue that devour is pretty useful. Need to heal, eat an enemy - although inaros' sand shadows seems gimmicky. 

4 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

This game is a looter-shooter. There's no such thing as "simply a loot ability". Any loot ability immediately catapults a frame into the meta. Desecrate is the best pure loot ability in the game. If you want more utility for less loot try Hydroid or Khora.

If Warframe was more like Diablo, Destiny, borderlands or even Anthem where there is a lot of RNG common, uncommon, rare, epic and mythic samey gear we have to sift thru to find the one with the best stats then I can totally get behind having a pure loot ability.

 

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

I would argue that devour is pretty useful. Need to heal, eat an enemy - although inaros' sand shadows seems gimmicky

Inaros has insane health and rarely needs it, as a heal it's slower than just about anything else, and Nekros produces loads of health orbs and so doesn't need it.

It is good for trolling defence waves, because you can spend 30s eating an enemy, but in the meantime nobody else can hurt it and the wave won't complete, guaranteeing that their combo counters/focus burn out. That's about it.

3 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

If Warframe was more like Diablo, Destiny, borderlands or even Anthem where there is a lot of RNG common, uncommon, rare, epic and mythic samey gear we have to sift thru to find the one with the best stats then I can totally get behind having a pure loot ability

In those games all the weapons themselves are RNG - you're hoping for just the right drop and rolling each time on the stats.

Warframe mostly (it does do that sometimes) has a different mechanic - the majority of weapons you either just buy the blueprint or research it with a clan, and then you build it. I much prefer this system, but the stuff you build it out of? That's where loot abilities come in.

In this game you're not sifting through 10 versions of the same gun, you're building it once and modding it the way you want, and building and levelling mods takes guess what? Loot.

Fact is that any looter frame is always welcome on just about any team (except certain boss fights they can't affect). Nekros for max loot, Hydroid or Khora for less loot but CC.

Knock Nekros down to 25% drop chance and he becomes all about his other abilities, which are OKish CC. He loses his primary purpose, becomes a lot less survivable (¼ the health orbs) and basically lives on as a less powerful Nyx with a better passive.

It's just the wrong change for him. 

Try out some other frames, maybe one will suit your play style better. I think changing a much loved frame because you don't get why everyone else uses him is a lost cause.

[Teridax68]

14 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Then enlighten us.

That person isn't really helping with how they're expressing themselves, but I think what they're trying to say is that Nekros's Desecrate with the Despoil augment, coupled with Health Conversion, is one of his biggest current assets: thanks to Despoil, Nekros continually drains minor amounts of health, which then allows him to consume the copious number of health orbs he spawns via Desecrate, granting him armor charges via Health Conversion (which then gives Nekros a constant armor buff, as he's constantly taking health damage). Keeping the loot drop effect while removing all drains means Nekros wouldn't be able to tank as efficiently (which you might have intended). As for the reworks:

I like the intent behind the Nekros change suggestions, as I agree that his 3 needn't be an active, and the new 2 looks good, provided Nekros gets some sort of protection while channelling (otherwise he may just die to burst damage while healing). Beyond that, my criticism:

• I think Desecrate as a loot ability just needs to go, honestly. I think the concept of a loot frame in a loot-based game like Warframe is fundamentally unhealthy and prone by design to exploitative farm strats, which DE has only recently begun pushing against. Moreover, I think it also just doesn't really fit Nekros all that well thematically: sure, he's doing stuff with corpses, but making them drop loot has currently just made him the game's loot frame, rather than a proper death-themed frame.
  • If we're pulling stuff from Blizzard games, why not instead have a corpse explosion effect? Instead of making corpses drop loot, Nekros could make them explode instead to damage and weaken nearby enemies (and you could make every severed body part provide its own explosion to maintain the synergy with Slash).
• Soul Punch really needs to change, as right now the ability is really ineffectual and not all that in tune with Nekros's theme, despite the name. One common suggestion I've seen has been to have the enemy's soul actually manifest and try to return to their body, while the latter remains stunned, and killing the body before that happens would dismember it and turn the soul to Nekros's side (as one of his shadows).
• Nekros's shadows I think need a pretty significant damage multiplier, as they have the issue with most enemy-based damage, where the enemy's damage is nowhere near their health, and so is generally useless unless some massive multiplier's involved. Currently the shadows' damage scales with Power Strength, but even that's not enough, so inserting a multiplier in-between that Power Strength could itself increase would likely work better.

As for the Revenant rework, I think it might need a bit more work: moving Mesmer Skin to Revenant's passive is a good idea, but the current implementation has a risk of Revenant never using his 1 or 2, as currently his thralls are crap, and damage reduction is much more valuable. If, by contrast, he and his thralls generated Mesmer Skin charges when hitting enemies, with each charge providing total damage/status immunity while being consumed on hit, he'd be encouraged to put his full toolset to use. As with Nekros, it would likely help if Enthrall also added a large damage multiplier to its mind-controlled victims.

In both Nekros and Revenant's case, it's also worth mentioning that part of their rework will likely require a rework to ally NPC AI to take full effect, as these are both frames with lots of pets, so to speak, yet pets in Warframe are notoriously stupid and dysfunctional. Pets based on enemies are even worse, as they will retain the original enemy's inaccuracy and tendency to take cover, neither of which are necessary to the player.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

That person isn't really helping with how they're expressing themselves, but I think what they're trying to say is that Nekros's Desecrate with the Despoil augment, coupled with Health Conversion, is one of his biggest current assets: thanks to Despoil, Nekros continually drains minor amounts of health, which then allows him to consume the copious number of health orbs he spawns via Desecrate, granting him armor charges via Health Conversion (which then gives Nekros a constant armor buff, as he's constantly taking health damage). Keeping the loot drop effect while removing all drains means Nekros wouldn't be able to tank as efficiently (which you might have intended). As for the reworks:

I like the intent behind the Nekros change suggestions, as I agree that his 3 needn't be an active, and the new 2 looks good, provided Nekros gets some sort of protection while channelling (otherwise he may just die to burst damage while healing). Beyond that, my criticism:

• I think Desecrate as a loot ability just needs to go, honestly. I think the concept of a loot frame in a loot-based game like Warframe is fundamentally unhealthy and prone by design to exploitative farm strats, which DE has only recently begun pushing against. Moreover, I think it also just doesn't really fit Nekros all that well thematically: sure, he's doing stuff with corpses, but making them drop loot has currently just made him the game's loot frame, rather than a proper death-themed frame.
  • If we're pulling stuff from Blizzard games, why not instead have a corpse explosion effect? Instead of making corpses drop loot, Nekros could make them explode instead to damage and weaken nearby enemies (and you could make every severed body part provide its own explosion to maintain the synergy with Slash).
• Soul Punch really needs to change, as right now the ability is really ineffectual and not all that in tune with Nekros's theme, despite the name. One common suggestion I've seen has been to have the enemy's soul actually manifest and try to return to their body, while the latter remains stunned, and killing the body before that happens would dismember it and turn the soul to Nekros's side (as one of his shadows).
• Nekros's shadows I think need a pretty significant damage multiplier, as they have the issue with most enemy-based damage, where the enemy's damage is nowhere near their health, and so is generally useless unless some massive multiplier's involved. Currently the shadows' damage scales with Power Strength, but even that's not enough, so inserting a multiplier in-between that Power Strength could itself increase would likely work better.

As for the Revenant rework, I think it might need a bit more work: moving Mesmer Skin to Revenant's passive is a good idea, but the current implementation has a risk of Revenant never using his 1 or 2, as currently his thralls are crap, and damage reduction is much more valuable. If, by contrast, he and his thralls generated Mesmer Skin charges when hitting enemies, with each charge providing total damage/status immunity while being consumed on hit, he'd be encouraged to put his full toolset to use. As with Nekros, it would likely help if Enthrall also added a large damage multiplier to its mind-controlled victims.

In both Nekros and Revenant's case, it's also worth mentioning that part of their rework will likely require a rework to ally NPC AI to take full effect, as these are both frames with lots of pets, so to speak, yet pets in Warframe are notoriously stupid and dysfunctional. Pets based on enemies are even worse, as they will retain the original enemy's inaccuracy and tendency to take cover, neither of which are necessary to the player.

Thanks for the feedback.

I made the following changes:

Nekros

Soul Familiar (replace Soul Punch) - Target an enemy and enslave their soul for a short time. Their soul will swirl around other nearby enemies draining their heath and healing Nekros and nearby allies health and curing any alignments. Downed allies will have their bleed timers extended.

>>Soul Familiar is a callback to old school Renewal except the amount healed is based off the targeted enemies health instead draining your warframe's energy. The range would be closer to Mesa' lasso

Soul Siphon - (channeling) drain an enemy's health to restore Nekro's energy. Channeling this ability stores energy that increases his ability strength for a short duration (increasing the damage his shadows). If an enemy is killed they become a shadow copy of that enemy. Nekros is invulnerable when channeling this ability.

As for keeping the despoil/health conversion combo here is an augment change - Despoil (aka Blood Magic) - Health increased by 300%, abilities now cost health instead of energy

As for Revenant, I made the following tweaks to make his thralls the principle mechanic. More thralls he has the more invulnerable he is. Then folks can decide whether to sacrifice them to tons of burst damage to one enemy or heal allies.

Mesmer Skin (passive) - Revenant is enveloped in sentient energy, each charge makes Revenant resistant to most damage. Revenant receive a charge for every active thrall.

Enthrall - convert a target into a Thrall for a short duration. Charging this ability will covert multiple enemies into thralls.

Command - Select a target for your thralls to either attack or protect. If the target selected is an enemy it will receive a debuff that amplifies damage target receives; if the target is an ally they will receive a buff that amplifies healing regeneration. Charging this ability will cause the thralls to rush the target and explode; if the target is an ally the explosion will be a heal burst. Target marking will work even if no thralls are active.

[Teridax68]

@(XB1)Nightseid The changes look good! My thought on the proposed changes:

On 2019-06-21 at 11:12 PM, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Soul Familiar (replace Soul Punch) - Target an enemy and enslave their soul for a short time. Their soul will swirl around other nearby enemies draining their heath and healing Nekros and nearby allies health and curing any alignments. Downed allies will have their bleed timers extended.

This looks good!

On 2019-06-21 at 11:12 PM, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Soul Siphon - (channeling) drain an enemy's health to restore Nekro's energy. Channeling this ability stores energy that increases his ability strength for a short duration (increasing the damage his shadows). If an enemy is killed they become a shadow copy of that enemy. Nekros is invulnerable when channeling this ability.

This also looks good, and I like the interaction with Shadows.

On 2019-06-21 at 11:12 PM, (XB1)Nightseid said:

As for keeping the despoil/health conversion combo here is an augment change - Despoil (aka Blood Magic) - Health increased by 300%, abilities now cost health instead of energy

The idea is good, and would definitely work for Nekros. I have 2 concerns/criticisms:

• It might be better to give the player bonus health based on their Energy pool, rather than just giving them a health multiplier (e.g. "Gain X% of your max Energy as Health, abilities now cost Health instead of Energy).
• The mod seems to modify the whole warframe, when currently augments only change one specific ability. There are a few ways to go about this:
  • Change the mod to affect one ability specifically (e.g. Soul Siphon).
  • Release the augment as the first of its kind to not specifically focus on any one ability.
  • Release the mod as a replacement to Quick Thinking (the function is basically the same).

On 2019-06-21 at 11:12 PM, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Mesmer Skin (passive) - Revenant is enveloped in sentient energy, each charge makes Revenant resistant to most damage. Revenant receive a charge for every active thrall.

Enthrall - convert a target into a Thrall for a short duration. Charging this ability will covert multiple enemies into thralls.

Command - Select a target for your thralls to either attack or protect. If the target selected is an enemy it will receive a debuff that amplifies damage target receives; if the target is an ally they will receive a buff that amplifies healing regeneration. Charging this ability will cause the thralls to rush the target and explode; if the target is an ally the explosion will be a heal burst. Target marking will work even if no thralls are active.

This looks pretty alright, yes!

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

made a few adjustments.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

Bump

[DeadVoid118]

These changes don't really make sense to me.

Firstly, using enemies against themselves will never be much of anything other than CC or to deflect aggression. If they were much more, then they'd be CC+extra, or Extra+CC and outclass other frames.

Nekros is all about the desecration. He's the guy sticking his hands into corpses and pulling out loot from who knows where. I'd rather we go in the opposite direction and remove his gimmicky shadows and soul punch to focus more on desecration. But, okay, let's focus on Nekros' summoning. I grant that Soul Punch needs to go, and I don't particularly care about the replacement you have. It's fine to me. However, desecrate as a bad passive is now really, really bad. It doesn't fit or synergize with the summoning kit. It's like Frost's tacked-on passive, just there because passives exist and is a holdover of the old desecrate. Either commit and get rid of it or make it synergize better, perhaps by making it have a chance of dropping loot that somehow helps your summons. Additionally, Soul Siphon is stupid. No way around it. It's Inaros' devour, which is bad and locks you into place and reduces your DPS to zilch. I'd rather it be like a totem or something that you cast on a dead body, erecting something like Wisp's reservoirs (like, a cross with the corpse on it because Nekros), but for your shadows instead of squad, or maybe buffing both, or maybe making enemies panic and go crazy. Something better than Inaros' most useless ability.

Revenant's current kit is actually pretty good, and I don't think he needs a rework at all. Now, a few changes maybe. Revenant's casting times are a bit long. However, Revenant does exactly what he's supposed to. He's a great tank with good CC, especially at higher levels. Your changes reduce Revenant to nothing. Do you know how long thralls last? Not long enough. It's hard to get to 7 from 2 thralls when those thralls keep dying to your squad first. Does he lose a charge for Mesmer every time a thrall dies? Because, if so, he's not going to have any charges 90% of the time. Even if he doesn't lose that charge when a thrall dies, he does when he's hit, which isn't good enough for plain damage reduction. Damage nullification, on the other hand, is much better for Revenant and is the only thing keeping him alive currently. Damage reduction makes him a worse Mesa (she gets 95% DR without having to care about stupid thralls dying immediately to allies/charges and you want to limit Revenant to 85%, and Mesa is not an amazing or even close to good tank), except you replaced the amazing damage ability with... negligible CC. This is a terrible redesign that kills any sort of viable high-level build for Revenant, and would probably just kill Revenant as a frame anybody plays.

So, I think your summoning idea for Nekros is... passable, but ruins Nekros' niche. Summoning/Minions have never been nor will ever be good so long as armor scaling exists, or it will be stupidly good. There's no real way to properly balance it without tweaking the numbers super hard. Nekros has always been about defiling bodies, though, which I quite like the idea of. He's a defiler of the dead, not a necromancer. Stop trying to make him a necromancer.

I think your rework for Revenant is completely pointless and just a bad nerf for a frame that doesn't need a nerf. You changed his mesmer skin into something so horrendous that arcanes would be a practical necessity to keep Revenant alive, and mesmer skin is the best ability on Revenant, meaning you killed his kit and replaced it with nothing. Revenant already has the problem of too-long-casting-times, and all your 'charge to hold' stuff would just make it worse. That stuff should probably just be built-in to make Revenant just the slightest more viable since your rework as is makes him... not viable. Ember would be a better pick than Revenant if your rework came to pass.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

On 2019-07-10 at 12:47 PM, Keylan118 said:

These changes don't really make sense to me.

Firstly, using enemies against themselves will never be much of anything other than CC or to deflect aggression. If they were much more, then they'd be CC+extra, or Extra+CC and outclass other frames.

Nekros is all about the desecration. He's the guy sticking his hands into corpses and pulling out loot from who knows where. I'd rather we go in the opposite direction and remove his gimmicky shadows and soul punch to focus more on desecration. But, okay, let's focus on Nekros' summoning. I grant that Soul Punch needs to go, and I don't particularly care about the replacement you have. It's fine to me. However, desecrate as a bad passive is now really, really bad. It doesn't fit or synergize with the summoning kit. It's like Frost's tacked-on passive, just there because passives exist and is a holdover of the old desecrate. Either commit and get rid of it or make it synergize better, perhaps by making it have a chance of dropping loot that somehow helps your summons. Additionally, Soul Siphon is stupid. No way around it. It's Inaros' devour, which is bad and locks you into place and reduces your DPS to zilch. I'd rather it be like a totem or something that you cast on a dead body, erecting something like Wisp's reservoirs (like, a cross with the corpse on it because Nekros), but for your shadows instead of squad, or maybe buffing both, or maybe making enemies panic and go crazy. Something better than Inaros' most useless ability.

Revenant's current kit is actually pretty good, and I don't think he needs a rework at all. Now, a few changes maybe. Revenant's casting times are a bit long. However, Revenant does exactly what he's supposed to. He's a great tank with good CC, especially at higher levels. Your changes reduce Revenant to nothing. Do you know how long thralls last? Not long enough. It's hard to get to 7 from 2 thralls when those thralls keep dying to your squad first. Does he lose a charge for Mesmer every time a thrall dies? Because, if so, he's not going to have any charges 90% of the time. Even if he doesn't lose that charge when a thrall dies, he does when he's hit, which isn't good enough for plain damage reduction. Damage nullification, on the other hand, is much better for Revenant and is the only thing keeping him alive currently. Damage reduction makes him a worse Mesa (she gets 95% DR without having to care about stupid thralls dying immediately to allies/charges and you want to limit Revenant to 85%, and Mesa is not an amazing or even close to good tank), except you replaced the amazing damage ability with... negligible CC. This is a terrible redesign that kills any sort of viable high-level build for Revenant, and would probably just kill Revenant as a frame anybody plays.

So, I think your summoning idea for Nekros is... passable, but ruins Nekros' niche. Summoning/Minions have never been nor will ever be good so long as armor scaling exists, or it will be stupidly good. There's no real way to properly balance it without tweaking the numbers super hard. Nekros has always been about defiling bodies, though, which I quite like the idea of. He's a defiler of the dead, not a necromancer. Stop trying to make him a necromancer.

I think your rework for Revenant is completely pointless and just a bad nerf for a frame that doesn't need a nerf. You changed his mesmer skin into something so horrendous that arcanes would be a practical necessity to keep Revenant alive, and mesmer skin is the best ability on Revenant, meaning you killed his kit and replaced it with nothing. Revenant already has the problem of too-long-casting-times, and all your 'charge to hold' stuff would just make it worse. That stuff should probably just be built-in to make Revenant just the slightest more viable since your rework as is makes him... not viable. Ember would be a better pick than Revenant if your rework came to pass.

Thank you for your feedback.

Nekros update:

Remove Soul Siphon – I disagree that Inaros’ Devour is useless; redundant, yes but not useless. Devour is a great get out of jail free ability and simply copy pasting Inaros devour was a bit unoriginal so… removed.

Dark Command (moved from my Revenant rework concept) – Mark a target. If the target selected is an enemy, it will receive a debuff that amplifies damage target receives; if the target is an ally they will receive a buff that amplifies healing regeneration. If shadows or soul familiars are active they will concentrate attacks on target or protect the target. Charging Dark Command will cause the shadows to rush the target and explode; if the target is an ally the explosion will be a heal burst.

So now Nekros has the following synergies:

Shadows synergies. Healed by 1. Directly controlled by 2. Effectiveness also increased by 2.

++++

Revenant update:

Mesmer Skin (passive/mechanic) – revert ability back to original: redirect damage and stun enemies whenever a charge is used. A charge is gained whenever a thrall is sacrificed by revenants abilities.

Reave (move to 2 slot) – whenever Reave is charged, Revenant will sacrifice all thralls leeching health and shield and disintegrating enemies killed into pillars, each Thrall sacrificed will restore Mesmer skin.

New 3rd ability  -> Twisted Beast – sacrifice all thralls and summon an eidolon remnant (kubrow-like eidolon) for a short duration. The remnants power and defense will be based on the number of thralls sacrificed.

Now revenants’ minions are a resource instead of just fodder.

*sacrifice will need to work similar to Titania’s Tribute where enemies are detonated and survivors attacks and defenses weakened. Possible limit sacrifices enemies can not be enthralled for short duration.

[Klaleara]

Apparently being able to survive is "Cool and fun".

Man, they sure messed up reworking Monkeylord then.

Nekros needs a rework, bad.  I couldn't care less about some boring passive loot.  Hell, I'd say go ahead and remove the loot aspect from Nekros, and just keep the orbs.  That way I can stop seeing people defend a Warframe who isn't nearly reaching the fun potential it could have.  Then rework him to actually be fun!

[-Equi-]

Am 21.6.2019 um 00:36 schrieb (XB1)KayAitch:

So we have the king of loot and one of the best endgame CC tanks. Sorry, but neither needs a rework before Vauban, Nyx, Titania, Ember, etc.

Dont forget about his 1+3 Combo that deals insane Damage. 

----------

For highlevel Revenant is the Frame. 

Change my mind

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

2 hours ago, -VS-Equi said:

Dont forget about his 1+3 Combo that deals insane Damage

I didn't...

On 2019-06-20 at 11:36 PM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

In the case of Revenant his 3 does scaling damage to thralled enemies - Enthrall them, Reave through them, they die (and renew your Mesmer skin). This works even at insanely high levels. His spin to win 4 is just gravy for the mobs.

Revenant does not need a rework.

[nslay]

Revenant is not as good at easy content as other frames and so therefore he's a really bad frame. Please give him better abilities at killing the low level enemies. I want that level 30 Corrupted Heavy Gunner to die in 0.01 seconds instead of just 0.05 seconds.