Lower Kuva cost on re-rolling rivens

[Oreades]

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

DE doesn’t price any Rivens. The free trading market does. It’s a good thing. Players also invest more Kuva in Rivens that have high dispositions in general so the rolled stats should be kept if DE is to regularly adjust Riven dispositions. 

There are also players like me who actually spend a lot of time to farm Kuva and roll Rivens and provide the market and other players Rivens with good stats. Players’ tremendous efforts in farming and rolling Rivens should be respected. Players’ platinum spent on good Rivens with good stats should be respected.

Locking stats is good for those who roll Rivens and good for those who spend plat to buy them. It’s a win-win. When DE nerf Rivens, all players lose except those who want to pay less and get more and maybe those who don’t farm, don’t roll, but just flip Rivens. 

PS. I also support those who only flip Rivens. It’s free market. They also provide great services for other players by getting those Rivens and staying online longer to resell them at the right prices others are willing to pay. 

Translation: I have a vested interest in DE creating a rare and sought after commodity by locking in and grandfathering Rivens so therefor it is a great idea for the market. 

[George_PPS]

11 hours ago, Oreades said:

Translation: I have a vested interest in DE creating a rare and sought after commodity by locking in and grandfathering Rivens so therefor it is a great idea for the market. 

Translation: Good Rivens are too expensive. I want the market to crash so I can buy them cheap. And I am lazy to spend tons of time to farm Kuva myself. 

[Oreades]

4 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Translation: Good Rivens are too expensive. I want the market to crash so I can buy them cheap. And I am lazy to spend tons of time to farm Kuva myself. 

Soooo you're saying I want a free market. I guess you're not far off especially compared to the government sanction monopoly you're after 

Also given that I'm not for locking in Riven stats, I'd be farming more Kuva to get the rolls I want sooooo 0 for 2, try again..... 

[George_PPS]

2 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Soooo you're saying I want a free market. I guess you're not far off especially compared to the government sanction monopoly you're after 

Also given that I'm not for locking in Riven stats, I'd be farming more Kuva to get the rolls I want sooooo 0 for 2, try again..... 

That’s good. Everyone supports free market. Everyone is happy. 

[Oreades]

2 hours ago, George_PPS said:

That’s good. Everyone supports free market. Everyone is happy. 

Assuming you are talking about a properly (not over, not under) regulated free market then yeah everybody should.

[Jax_Cavalera]

10 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Everyone supports free market. Everyone is happy.

 

8 hours ago, Oreades said:

a properly (not over, not under) regulated free market then yeah everybody should.

What does this said free market look like though, I'm a little confused now.. does this mean people are in favour of keeping riven stats controlled by disposition changes? Do players want to get rid of RNG or do we want even more RNG in the riven system 😕

[Ikusias]

Personally I want DE to stop trashing rivens that I have no intention of reselling and costed me time too much time and kuva to roll to decent values!

In the past when they went and altered anything in players inventory they gave some form of indemnity, with the crapsack excuse that riven were "meant" to be variable according to their whims (after years of neglect), they decided not to indemnize us for their interference.

the riven market needs to be regulated because prices are out of whack to a degree that resembles a monopoly, but players inventories are and must remain sacrosanct - DE got no right to change the riven in my account - if they need balancing they can do so when/if I actually bother to trade them or if I reroll existing riven, not before.

and start investing in better servers, 90 rivens is a laughable cap considering they added archgun rivens as well!

Edited July 22, 2019 by Ikusias

[ZarTham]

Add rivens to SO & ESO drop tables.

Lower roll costs to 1/2

Increase Kuva drop amount by x2

Now everybody has rivens! You get a riven! Hey! You also get a Riven! And you too get a Riven! Now let us marvel ourselves as we watch the market crash into oblivion.

Now on a serious note, DE should increase Kuva drop amount, 200 is just....... -_-

[Oreades]

5 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

What does this said free market look like though, I'm a little confused now.. does this mean people are in favour of keeping riven stats controlled by disposition changes? Do players want to get rid of RNG or do we want even more RNG in the riven system 😕

It means people are greedy AF, they are always going to want a system that gives them (personally) an advantage. That's why we have laws and market regulation to prevent these clowns from charging $300 per gallon of gas in disaster areas and why there is an EPA, so companies can't just dump rendered hog fat directly into rivers (anymore). 

DE has taken some amount of effort to keep prices on the market in check by re-introducing "content" in cycles that to some degree mirror the market highs. Bringing those prices down somewhat to more reasonable levels. You keep the market going but at the same time you keep the market sane. They even mentioned in a Devstream some time ago that the reason they where bringing Ember back that Unvaulting cycle was because her price on the market had gotten so stupid high. 

Well we can't exactly get more RNG in the Riven system, it's pretty much at peak RNG. 

 

Right now everyone plays by the same rules. If your Riven has the "best" stats it can get even if they lower the stat cap via disposition, it still has the "best" stats you can get and if they raise them again later it should still (theoretically) have the "best" stats it can get. In a way Rivens are already locked but they're locked in a way that your Riven stays at the same level within the currently allowed tolerances. As far as I'm concerned that is adequate regulation, it keeps the board level because anyone can still roll stats that Rival those of existing Rivens. 

Being able to lock in a stat type (EG you just rolled a riven with say X, Y and OMG finally Multishot) and being able to lock in the fact that said riven will re-roll with a guarenteed shot at having (Multishot) as one of it's stats, tho not necessarily at the same range(?) (EG maybe the first roll had 54% and the next roll has 49% or 62%). That is actually beneficial to everyone across the board so as much as I'm on the fence about it, I'd be relatively OK with it. 

Pretty much as long as you keep the changes fair across the field, you've properly regulated. 

 

Now not some system that grandfathers in older Riven rolls (stats) because that just ensures that someone with a Riven from as little as one Disposition change ago has a Riven that has stats that no one else in the game can hope to attain from (insert patch number) onward. They essentially end up creating mini Primed Chambers every disposition change, except with useful stats. What these chuckleheads are also ignoring is what happens if their Rivens are locked and DE raises the disposition cap..... whelp your 123 roll absolutely perfect god tier riven is now..... completely outmoded and you will need to totally re-roll it (god knows how many times) if you want to keep up with the maximum potential stats it could have in the current disposition.

It actually goes hard counter to what the current Riven system purportedly strives to because it becomes detrimental to deal in unpopular weapon rivens because if you invest your time into those weapons and the disposition actually goes up..... whelp your riven is instantly sub-par. So now people have a reason not to use Rivens for their slated "intended purpose". So on that front DE would have not only created a monster with Grandfathering Rivens with distrobutions that drop but completely invalidated the Riven system for weapons that are poised for an increase. It would create a pretty damn toxic cycle where people won't touch anything that isn't 5 star and will then proceed to run those weapons into the ground just to be able to unload an otherwise unattainable godtier+++ Riven.

In short Greedy people want to sell their now unattainable Rivens at insane markups and you can tell that's pretty much their only motivation because they haven't considered the blatantly obvious downside or worse off they have and they just don't care how much rendered hog fat they pump unto the rivers to get what they want. They are the reason no unregulated free market system is sustainable. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Oreades

[Yamazuki]

20 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Translation: Good Rivens are too expensive. I want the market to crash so I can buy them cheap. And I am lazy to spend tons of time to farm Kuva myself. 

Generally it's better to just farm plat to buy the Riven you want rather than farming the Kuva and dealing with the process of possibly re-rolling indefinitely.

Although, it's not as if RNG is needed to keep good Rivens rare. They could just be absurdly expensive to actually get to, and this alternate method could even lock the Riven to the person's account; meaning "lazy" people will still choose to just buy expensive Rivens anyways, while people still continue gambling to make plat.

[George_PPS]

7 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Generally it's better to just farm plat to buy the Riven you want rather than farming the Kuva and dealing with the process of possibly re-rolling indefinitely.

Although, it's not as if RNG is needed to keep good Rivens rare. They could just be absurdly expensive to actually get to, and this alternate method could even lock the Riven to the person's account; meaning "lazy" people will still choose to just buy expensive Rivens anyways, while people still continue gambling to make plat.

Free market truly benefits all. Those who prefer to farm Kuva and grind that rolling RNG can spend hundreds if not thousands of hours to do that. Those who prefer to farm easy sale items for quick plat daily for top Rivens can do that. Those who have money and don’t have time to farm for either can buy plat to buy anything/Rivens of any god stats they prefer. 

[Jax_Cavalera]

On 2019-07-23 at 12:14 AM, Ikusias said:

Personally I want DE to stop trashing rivens that I have no intention of reselling and costed me time too much time and kuva to roll to decent values!

I believe that this is a valid and justified grievance though the solution isn't to simply avoid working towards balance, it needs to be making the system better so changes like this don't leave players feeling completely short-changed and out of pocket. DE need to simply state up front and in very certain terms their actual intentions for rivens, if they aren't to encourage creative and unique builds for popular weapons... and to provide a means for weaker weapons to compete with the top tier stuff.

A lot of this seems to come from a place of confusion by players who clearly trust that DE listen to the community and want to make a better game for us... and have subsequently experienced heavy loss like this as the result of disposition changes.
 

On 2019-07-23 at 1:25 AM, ZarTham said:

Now on a serious note, DE should increase Kuva drop amount, 200 is just....... -_-

Yeah it'd help for sure making kuva easier to get, though all this will result in is lowering the market trade price on god tier riven rolls. I didn't believe it when I first started this thread, but after hearing the evidence provided by the community it seem to be a fairly likely outcome. Lowering re-rolling costs or increasing kuva drop rates just isn't enough to fix the core of the broken system.

It really needs: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1109953-proposed-rework-rivens-and-kuva/ or something like this to get it there.
 

On 2019-07-23 at 1:47 AM, Oreades said:

It means people are greedy AF, they are always going to want a system that gives them (personally) an advantage.

 

On 2019-07-23 at 1:47 AM, Oreades said:

It actually goes hard counter to what the current Riven system purportedly strives to because it becomes detrimental to deal in unpopular weapon rivens because if you invest your time into those weapons and the disposition actually goes up..... whelp your riven is instantly sub-par

This was a very well written response that accurately captures what I believe to be a fundamental issue with the RNG system we have. If stats on a riven are RNG based, then rolling the slot machine simply lands us in a place where a 5% of all rivens rolled get god tier stats that surpass the expected balance DE were aiming for.. so they nerf the riven and for the other 95% of players with that same riven.. they go from good to garbage.

A system that rewards players who gamble over and over till they get into that 5% god tier will always struggle to support a free market based on my working understanding of what a free market is now.
 

On 2019-07-23 at 5:42 AM, Yamazuki said:

Generally it's better to just farm plat to buy the Riven you want rather than farming the Kuva and dealing with the process of possibly re-rolling indefinitely.

Pretty much yeah if you get  a riven right now, it works out very time expensive to try rolling it vs what you can probably earn minimum wage and spend on plat to outright buy the same thing.
 

On 2019-07-23 at 1:18 PM, George_PPS said:

Free market truly benefits all.

If DE can change the current system so it can better support a true free market then I agree it will 100% benefit all.