Proposed Rework | Rivens and Kuva

[Jax_Cavalera]

Proposed Rework | Rivens and Kuva

TL:DR
Proposed Changes

• A player unveils the riven mod and is shown a list of stat combination presets to choose from (as set out and balanced  by DE)
• If the player wants to change their stat combo preset, they use the Re-Forge Riven Mod screen (previously Re-Roll Riven Mod screen)
• On this screen the player can select a new stat combo preset and apply it for a kuva fee (TBD)

Context

Spoiler

In a recent discussion around the subject of how Riven disposition changes are impacting the community, I got this idea for a way that the whole kuva farming and riven modding system could be improved. (see original topic for reference):

So the original idea was more specifically targeting the weapons and how lowering kuva re-roll costs could reduce the darker scene associated with all of that stuff. The ideas proposed by the community were really insightful and also helped to highlight that changes at that level were just a band-aid fix on top of something that really needs a proper do-over.

I have since participated in other riven related discussions which lead me to find a devstream snippet where [DE]Steve and [DE]Rebecca are discussing the intention of the riven system. This helped quite a bit to better understand where they were coming from and what was important to them.

See:

To further compliment this information, I put together a Poll so I could get a feel for where the community is at regarding the current Riven Mod implementation:

On 2019-08-30 at 8:09 AM, Jax_Cavalera said:

As the title says, I'm wanting to get a bit of a weigh in on where the community is at regarding our current Riven Mod system. It's difficult to have a meaningful, objective discussion without some kind of data to reference that represents the preferences of the player-base.

Vote Now !

Looking at those poll results based on a randomly selected sample size to represent the greater community, a significant majority are not happy with the current implement of the Riven / Kuva system.

At the time of writing, below are the poll figures from a total sample size of 122 players:

Improve it

38

 

Remove it

48

 

Keep it working how it does right now

36

Keeping the above in mind, it's clear that there is a minority who are happy with how the system is working right now.

Taking all of the above into consideration, I have put together a proposed solution that is the combination of various ideas from members of the community (my own included) on how we can fix things up.

 

Proposed Changes (Detailed)

• DE put together an initial collection of 5 riven stat combinations for each weapon [ over time more stat combinations can be released giving players a reason to consider re-forging ]
• When a player unveils a riven mod, they are taken to the "Riven Forge" screen [ previously used as the "re-roll riven mod" screen ]
• The Riven Forge screen presents a player with a list of riven stat combinations to choose from.
  Image shows concept for when there is a kuva cost (kuva value and mod stats are placeholders only)
  
• The player selects a combination and it is applied at no kuva cost
• Players can change the stat combo preset by selecting their riven mod in the Mods screen and clicking the Riven Forge button [ re-forging has a kuva cost TBD ]
  
   
• For existing, unveiled riven mods:
  • All roll counters will be replaced by a forge counter reset to 0
  • Players will receive 1 Legendary Forge Core for every X roll counters removed off a riven mod [ exchange rate TBD based on re-forge kuva cost ]
    • A Legendary Forge Core lets the player re-forge a riven mod at no additional cost
    • If the player owns any Legendary Forge Cores, they will see an extra button on the Riven Forge screen "Use Legendary Forge Core" and the standard "Forge For X kuva"
  • Mod ranks will remain untouched and will continue to increase the level of riven mod stats as they always have.
  • Riven mods are removed from any weapons they were installed on
    • When the player clicks Upgrade on a weapon they own an unveiled riven mod for, they are taken to the Riven Forge screen and get to select a new stat combo preset for free.
    • If they own multiple riven mods for that weapon, they will get to do this for each of riven mod associated with that weapon.

Expected Outcomes

• RNG will be significantly reduced from the whole system.
• This opens up the opportunity for players to explore a wider variety of builds on a weapon than simply following whatever meta is out there.
• There will be a stronger focus on creating balanced disposition changes
• Making disposition changes will be easier since the data can represent actual player intent VS players just using the closest stats they could get due to RNG and it taking longer for the outlier god-tier dispositions that are unbalanced to surface.
• Riven trade market will remain viable since the riven mod you get is still random like any other mod drop from enemies in the game.
• Players won't be caught in the position of having to pay more than the cost of a standard AAA game for a single riven mod or potentially spend the next few weeks grinding the same content over and over again till they burn out.
• A disposition change no longer means "Weapon X is now useless" it just means "A specific meta build on weapon X is now less effective"

That's pretty much it. If I'm overlooking anything, please let me know so it can be incorporated into the overall proposal. I have seen other ideas about locking in the buffs or curse, however this was usually based from locking in stats after a mod was rolled so RNG would determine what buffs / curse your riven mod had and ultimately leads to stale mod stats which would add more fuel onto the riven trade fire.

If you like this idea, please show support by throwing it a Like
 

Archived Proposals

Spoiler

Proposal V1

• Players can specify the 2-3 buff stats and optional curse stat - On the fence about the curse stat
• There are no more Min - Max versions of these stats
• Number of buffs / curse would be the only thing that would still impact stat strengths - On the fence about the curse stat
• DE would be able to adjust core damage boosting stats without also having to change the utility ones on a per weapon basis

What this means for the game:

• Gives players more control over what riven stats they want to best suit their weapon and playstyle.
• Gives DE better data so they can balance specific builds instead of blanket nerfing entire riven mods.
• Removes unnecessary RNG out of the system - RNG masks the user's true intent creating noise in what could otherwise be more clean data.
• Keeps the trade market alive and thriving - Players will still want to get their hands on riven mods for certain weapons.
• Enables old / unpopular weapons to become viable alternatives again.
• Prevents already powerful weapons becoming even more powerful (avoids power creep).
• Allows players to create more "interesting" builds for already powerful weapons.
• Supports the concept of gaining more power through progression -  Something DE have made clear they value over simply blanket buffing all weapons

Proposed Changes
n.b All recipe's use a combination of Kuva + underused, existing components like alloy plates, nano spores, rubedo, etc.)

• Player gets veiled riven mod (melee, secondary, primary, shotgun)
• Player does challenge to unveil it
• Up-front the player gets to select 2 buff stats
  • Player can unlock the 3rd (weaker) Support Stat Unlock recipe
  • Alternative: 3rd buff isn't weaker, but also comes with a random curse? (I'm on the fence about this one)
• Riven disposition changes kick in and player now has a mod with 1 or maybe 2 watered down stats so they need to either:
  • Trash / Trade the mod away
  • Craft a Single Stat Change recipe
    • Changes a single buff stat - Player can switch to one that wasn't nerfed in the recent disposition re-balance
  • Craft a Stat Reset recipe
    • Resets the riven mod back to only having 2 available buff stats that the player can choose
    • Player can craft the Support Stat Unlock recipe if they want a 3rd buff again
    • Works out cheaper than a Single Stat Change and slightly faster if the 3rd support stat was not unlocked before the reset
  • Transmutate the riven mod

Proposal V2 placeholder

Edited September 1, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera
Added results from Poll to context section

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

0 replies, 5h. It really makes me think about what the hell this community prioritizes, no jokes. Anyways, i really like the suggestion, i would also add another thing:  

 

- Riven Immunity boost: a system that enables you to close your Riven again (when you open it, you'll get the same one) spending a resource for it, but the challenge that the Riven will require to be opened will be something stupidly hard. If you accomplish the challenge, your Riven will be stronger, in the sense that he will be: immune to Riven disposition changes (he'll always be at full power).

Edited July 11, 2019 by (XB1)XG1anBl4derX

[(XBOX)dude1286]

The community no longer prioritizes late game systems because the players that about such things are mostly gone playing other games. The current community only wants to nerf equipment and make things easier and quicker to obtain, not have challenging and rewarding content.

OT, any change to Rivens that give players more control would be welcome, they are the closest thing to end game rewards that we have.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Intriguing...

Possibly...

Modular Rivens...

• Original Riven Mod has 2 open buff slots, and one drawback slot. (establishes the weapon it can be equipped on) Cannot be crafted.
• Crafting recipe to create a consumable that unveils a riven instantly, or changes the chore/allenge.
• Crafting recipe to change the Riven's base weapon (cannot be used once components are added.)
• Crafting recipes for components that are used to install each possible mod. (these function like the strike/grip/link)
• Crafting recipe to buff the strength of the 2 buff slots at the expense of not having the 3rd slot.
• Craftable drawback-slot limitation remover, allowing the 3rd slot to receive a buff component. (like Exilus Adapter, except this must be included in the original crafting of the riven, unless we can modify these rivens after they've been created, by use of the components)

 

• Kuva is required for each installation of a component.
• All recipes require Kuva.
• Kuva could be used to re-roll which weapon the riven applies to.

 

Just brainstorming off this concept.

[Avienas]

8 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Proposed Rework | Rivens and Kuva

Context

  Reveal hidden contents

 

In a recent discussion around the subject of how Riven disposition changes are impacting the community, I got this idea for a way that the whole kuva farming and riven modding system could be improved. (see original topic for reference):

So the original idea was more specifically targeting the weapons and how lowering kuva re-roll costs could reduce the darker scene associated with all of that stuff. The ideas proposed by the community were really insightful and also helped to highlight that changes at that level were just a band-aid fix on top of something that really needs a proper do-over.

 

Proposed Changes

• Players are able to choose 2 -> 3 buffs and 1 (optional curse) for their riven mod
• Disposition has the ability to affect individual buffs or curses vs being a blanket change to every stat on a mod card
• Players can use Kuva to re-assign the selected buffs / curse on a mod

Expected Outcomes

• RNG will be significantly reduced from the whole system
• There will be a stronger focus on creating balanced disposition changes
• Making disposition changes will be easier since the data can represent actual player intent vs players just using the closest they could get due to RNG and it taking longer for the outlier god-tier dispositions that are unbalanced to surface.
• Impact from disposition changes will be greatly reduced as players will not be engaging in platinum related activities that directly tie in with chance based gameplay mechanics (put more bluntly.. no more platinum related gambling activities)
• Riven trade market will remain strong, as there will still be those veteran players who have the means to run sorties comfortably, and those players who still struggle but have disposable platinum to trade with.
• A disposition change no longer means "Weapon X is now useless" it just means "A specific meta build on weapon X is now less effective"

That's pretty much it. If I'm overlooking anything, please let me know so it can be incorporated into the overall proposal. I have seen other ideas about locking in the buffs or curse, however this was usually based from locking in stats after a mod was rolled so RNG would determine what buffs / curse your riven mod had, the approach here would mean no more rolling the dice.

Change is always good but feels like i was seeing a bunch of complicated bits thrown about that took me time to figure out what you were trying to explain. Heres one tid bit taken from other games such as how Maplestory, where you would spend a Honor medal point thing to cycle bonus stats with other things involved, but had the ability to lock X ability lines so your not tossing all your effect out the window to pray you get something better at a chunky 3500 cost at basically 3 kuva siphon runs with a resource booster active.

• Basically the maplestory idea i feel like would make riven rerolling less of a hassle to manage with if it were to be put in, Reduce kuva costs but add in a new lock feature where one can select one particular effect line (with curses being unable to be locked and can land on either a active curse or not),where each line lock does a sizable increase in the reroll kuva cost and locking a 2nd line would make a even higher cost increase in kuva compared to just locking one, also you would not be able to lock all existing lines to try and cheese a third line or curse on or off for obvious reasons. Also you are locking the affix type, if a curse suddenly pops in or out, then it will affect the base modifier of all existing lines regardless, otherwise the lock line basically stays the same.
• Actually update transmutation for better control on chasing specific riven types. Because if i were to melt 3 of the same weapon out of 4, it should really just gurantee that X veiled weapon type.
• Might be neat if disposition was less about the popularity of a weapon deciding if the riven must be auto made garbage next cycle and maybe make certain effect types on certain weapons less useful, due to excessive presence of 2 or so particular lines being overused. Plus of course clean out what might as well be classified as trash stat lines (since how many aim for faction bonuses, ammo capacity and so on), very least some kind of tweak to disposition so chasing after god roll rivens of popular weapons becomes more of a waste of time and its more neat to switch over to a different then the meta weapons, cause you got a nice riven for it.

Honestly at how bad market chat is at the very least on the console side, it would be nice if something was done to either make the riven marketers forced to stop asking for what might as well be a prime access worth amount of platinum for a popular riven with absurdly high stat modifiers and rivens are more chased to cover particular faults of those weapons or outright replace the need of having particular mods so you can slap other mods on since you freed up the space.

Granted i think the idea of having riven mod be simply say a mutated version of point strike that can have extra stats on it but prevents you from stacking point strike on it also would be fun, since they have similar now with Amalgam mods, but likely it will just be left untouched since it acts as a good way for people to get pressured to fetch the credit card to buy enough plat to get that fancy riven mod which might become garbage by the next riven disposition change.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Avienas

[peterc3]

9 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

• Players are able to choose 2 -> 3 buffs and 1 (optional curse) for their riven mod

Players making these choices invalidates the existence of the system. DE would sooner wholesale remove the system and any references to it and pretend it never existed than allow players to do that.

The RNG is the only thing that allows the system to exist.

[Jax_Cavalera]

I'm really loving the feedback and contributions from everyone it's great to see others are passionate about making these systems better as well.
 

5 hours ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

immune to Riven disposition changes

At first glance, this strikes me like a super cool idea. For it to work, any riven unveiled using the Ultra Challenge would need to become an untradeable mod or it would just throw more fuel onto the problem. From reading, it sounds like that was the intention anyway - so a player would earn and want to keep something of value long term.

Looking at it from the perspective of the developers, it is likely to be at odds with their primary goal of bringing back old, underused weapons.. and balancing (nerfing) the newer, already powerful and popular weapons so they don't continue to be the only weapons used.
 

3 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Possibly...

Modular Rivens...

It means there would be a bit more grinding involved, but it also removes a lot of the gambling RNG responsible for the salt each time we get dispo changes from the process, keeping the fun bit (which weapon is this going to be for) in there. If this were merged into the initial concept it might look something like:

• Player gets veiled riven mod (melee, secondary, primary, shotgun)
• Player does challenge to unveil it
• Up-front the player gets to select 2 buff stats
  • Took out curses likely every player will choose the same curse anyway and they're main purpose right now is for balancing amazing RNG re-rolls which wouldn't be a thing anyway
  • Player can unlock the 3rd (weaker) Support Stat Unlock recipe (kuva + underused, existing components)
    • 3rd weaker buff maybe is not weaker but also comes with a random curse? idk.. not sure how I feel about this bit
• Riven dispo changes kick in and player now has a mod with 1 or maybe 2 watered down stats so they need to either:
  • Trash / Trade the mod away
  • Craft a Stat Change recipe using kuva and other (currently underused but already existing) components to change a single buff. This opens up the opportunity for players to explore a wider variety of builds on a weapon than simply following whatever meta is out there.
  • Craft a Stat Reset recipe (kuva and underused, existing components like alloy plates etc.)
    • Resets the riven mod back to only having 2 available buff stats that the player can choose
    • Player can craft the Support Stat Unlock recipe if they want a 3rd buff again

 

2 hours ago, Avienas said:

riven marketers forced to stop asking for what might as well be a prime access worth amount of platinum for a popular riven with absurdly high stat modifiers and rivens are more chased to cover particular faults of those weapons

I think it's ok to have a thriving riven market out there, but the reason a riven is valuable shouldn't be because it's god tier random chance gambling.. and it shouldn't be because it makes an already amazing weapon even more overpowered.  It should be driven from the point of players wanting to breathe life back into the otherwise forgotten weapons in their arsenal. A perfect scenario being something like:

• I love the way weapon X handles, but it's just not good enough to bring along to <insert mission here>
• Goes on trade chat or riven market place etc.. WTB riven for weapon X
• Some nice buff assignments out there but I know I'll want to tweak it a bit myself anyway, pays the going rate in plat
• Crafts a Stat Change / Stat Reset recipe(s)
• Weapon goes great .. keeps riven.. still not amazing.. sells it on the market again or tries different riven stat combinations

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

The RNG is the only thing that allows the system to exist.

I can agree that RNG is 100% the driving force behind the addict behavior, continued lack of balance and casino-like lucrative spending going down right now. I don't think it really aligns with the original and openly stated intention behind riven mods:

• To reach a point of balance.
• To breathe life into older underused weapons again.

Part of the reason why we keep seeing disposition changes happen is to reduce and devalue those crazy high selling mods because DE seem to also notice how toxic a 1000+ plat riven trade is to player retention when they know it needs a nerf if they are going to solve the 2 key problems rivens were made for.

3 hours ago, Avienas said:

i was seeing a bunch of complicated bits thrown about that took me time to figure out what you were trying to explain.

Thank you for this feedback too, I've tried to take it on board adding a TL:DR to the top of the post.
 

3 hours ago, Avienas said:

very least some kind of tweak to disposition so chasing after god roll rivens of popular weapons becomes more of a waste of time and its more neat to switch over to a different then the meta weapons, cause you got a nice riven for it.

Yes 100% this is the primary goal of what the rework should better support and really sums up where the current state of affairs are at with the whole riven / kuva ecosystem.

[peterc3]

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

• To reach a point of balance.

This was never the point of Rivens. They were to add something to bridge the gap between weapon balance passes. Make less used weapons more interesting, to the point you simply consider using something other than the meta setups.

1 hour ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Part of the reason why we keep seeing disposition changes happen is to reduce and devalue those crazy high selling mods because DE seem to also notice how toxic a 1000+ plat riven trade is to player retention when they know it needs a nerf if they are going to solve the 2 key problems rivens were made for.

The market is 100% player driven. The entire reason there are dispo changes is because they explicitly said there would be. The player market does not affect the development of the game.

[Avienas]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

This was never the point of Rivens. They were to add something to bridge the gap between weapon balance passes. Make less used weapons more interesting, to the point you simply consider using something other than the meta setups.

The market is 100% player driven. The entire reason there are dispo changes is because they explicitly said there would be. The player market does not affect the development of the game.

Honestly if they wanted to balance it they could of also modified it so popular weapons(aka 1 or 2 disposition) have absurdly bad chance rates to EVER get rivens for it specifically and rivens would land more on much less used weapons, but that would just up the value players could charge for uber rare weapons despite only having 50~90% of the base value modifiers due to disposition modifier. That or make it disposition 1 & 2 rivens have a good chance to get 2 curses instead of just 1 to further increase the reason to stop exploiting them as secondary serration mods for more damage cheese.

And its not that the player market affects the development of the game, it basically affects the satisfaction of players since everyone has to go thru it for all sorts of goodies, play a very secluded game without trying to spend plat at all (good luck on progressing that way) OR have plenty of money to just constantly throw at the game like a ignorant whale in any EA games in general.

Funny how this reminds me of a REVERSAL way they could have  HAD rivens work, instead of having them be for specific weapons, they act more like a serration mod, working on any weapon of its type (Rifle/Shotgun/Secondary/Melee/Archgun/etc), which would greatly remove alot of the rngsus. BUUUUT, riven mods would have the disposition modifier applied as soon as they are equipped on a weapon. Like say a Rifle has a 1/5 or .5 disposition, the stats listed on the riven immediately become half of what its base stats are when applied to that weapon. Main reason for this being to clean out alot of the market chat clutter, basically kill the reason for transmutation and especially kill most of the excuse for riven marketing whales to charge absurd amount of plat since one less line of rng-sus is purged since everyone should have a signficantly less of a hassle to get `G-Rolls`. Very least it would save D.E. alot of text clutter, even if it might crash the value of riven mods and make the reason to have say multiple primary riven mods to be more about having various configuration setups for different things, such as a riven with reload and a specific elemental to correct guns like supra, with another to have multishot and flight speed for weapons with bad fire rates but to make it a good spray hose like zhuge prime.

 

Or they could just get straight to the point and remove all Damage/Critical chance/Critical Damage/Elemental damage modifiers so rivens turn purely into utility mutli stack effect mods, to just be for correcting weapons faults and greatly improve it in its pros instead of just turn it into absurd beat stick extra mod like augur secrets/reach/message/etc. are abused to % stack higher.

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Avienas

[Jax_Cavalera]

On 2019-07-12 at 9:14 AM, peterc3 said:

They were to add something to bridge the gap between weapon balance passes.

Put another way... to reach a point of balance.

On 2019-07-12 at 9:14 AM, peterc3 said:

The player market does not affect the development of the game.

I think we're both just speculating at this point and it is unlikely a coincidence that we see consistent repeat nerfs to riven mods that are listed as the top sellers on semlar.

On 2019-07-12 at 10:20 AM, Avienas said:

but that would just up the value players could charge for uber rare weapons despite only having 50~90% of the base value modifiers due to disposition modifier.

That's how it looks to me as well, their approach to dealing with dispo changes seems to take into account the impact those changes will have on the trade market. So perhaps it's not the trade market impacting the dispo changes but the dispo changes being made so as to NOT affect the trade market. or am I just saying the same thing in a different way lol idk now ~~

Either way, I do like that riven mods are designated to individual weapons in that it gives DE the opportunity for more fine-grain control over how a disposition value will affect the Min / Max stats that a weapon can get.

I'm not a huge fan of having an RNG on what stats you get, or an RNG on what value you get for those stats. Having RNG determine the weapon you get a riven mod for would be critical to keep some market value out there in a system like the one proposed.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[Jax_Cavalera]

I've made a tweak to the OP that includes provided feedback into the original topic. Interested to hear more ideas, discussion, etc. around the topic taking these adjustments into consideration 🙂

[(XBOX)Foighne]

I like the changes recommended in this thread, but I’d personally just like to see riven mods removed completely. They feel like mandatory mods like Serration and Split Chamber, except they get worse depending on how popular that weapon is. Their instability makes me extremely hesitant to buy them from other players. Who knows, maybe that God Roll I just paid 1K for will be impotent and worthless in a couple months.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Foighne said:

I like the changes recommended in this thread, but I’d personally just like to see riven mods removed completely. They feel like mandatory mods like Serration and Split Chamber, except they get worse depending on how popular that weapon is. Their instability makes me extremely hesitant to buy them from other players. Who knows, maybe that God Roll I just paid 1K for will be impotent and worthless in a couple months.

I'm with this. Part of the reason why I think discussions on Riven mods tend to not generate that much feedback, or fall apart very quickly, is that the moment one starts asking for the ability to reliably choose our Riven mod stats (which would be a significant improvement over the current slot machine model), that in turn begs the question of why we even need Riven mods with varied stats in the first place, because the most desirable stats are almost identical across all weapons. In the end, what players look for in Riven mods is more power, not new or interesting gameplay, which is why Rivens as a system have fundamentally failed in their purported goal of diversifying weapons. While the real goal was likely to just stimulate player trading, that too is eroding over time as players are becoming increasingly aware that their multi-thousand-plat god Riven is at risk of being massively devalued at any point in time, with no forewarning or compensation. Riven mods are a poor system overall that are, at best, an overly complicated and unreliable way of balancing weapons (and DE knows approximately by how much weapons need to be buffed or nerfed, thanks to Riven Dispositions), and at worst a rather slimy method of paying for power that has tainted the market with exploitative player trading. We ought to get rid of the system entirely, undo the damage Rivens have done, and find more sustainable ways to add balance, diversity, and player interaction.

[Avienas]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I'm with this. Part of the reason why I think discussions on Riven mods tend to not generate that much feedback, or fall apart very quickly, is that the moment one starts asking for the ability to reliably choose our Riven mod stats (which would be a significant improvement over the current slot machine model), that in turn begs the question of why we even need Riven mods with varied stats in the first place, because the most desirable stats are almost identical across all weapons. In the end, what players look for in Riven mods is more power, not new or interesting gameplay, which is why Rivens as a system have fundamentally failed in their purported goal of diversifying weapons. While the real goal was likely to just stimulate player trading, that too is eroding over time as players are becoming increasingly aware that their multi-thousand-plat god Riven is at risk of being massively devalued at any point in time, with no forewarning or compensation. Riven mods are a poor system overall that are, at best, an overly complicated and unreliable way of balancing weapons (and DE knows approximately by how much weapons need to be buffed or nerfed, thanks to Riven Dispositions), and at worst a rather slimy method of paying for power that has tainted the market with exploitative player trading. We ought to get rid of the system entirely, undo the damage Rivens have done, and find more sustainable ways to add balance, diversity, and player interaction.

Sadly outright removing rivens would likely just result in too much backlash and a better & smaller backlash would just make them similar to amalgam serration and what not or generalize what each is for:

• The first idea would basically make them gurantee 1 particular stat constantly and cannot be stack with the original version sort of a Riven Serration to give a rough idea. This would at least curve the power creep a tad and make them more about getting a riven that could overwrite a particular norm mod and have the random stats be something good.
• Second idea would likely just pair with the first since making rivens the equilvency to a add line bonus to a regular mod might as well just stream line it so rivens would be categorized as Primary/Secondary/Melee/Archgun if we want to keep it as simple as possible.
• One of the major faults that helped to the over complication, was making rivens more lined up for specific weapons which with so many weapons in general, turns it into a pseudo-gambling game to roll that good weapon and preferably a good polarity to work around and that is before we even consider the stats in general. Since no REAL demerits except turning popular weapon rivens into the equilvency of what Augur secrets is compared to Intensify, just a bonus damage mod that can stack with intensify, are even present, that is why rivens just turned into bonus serration mods for the most part. You arent restricted on using them and its easy enough to stack plenty of forma to make up for the chunky cost. Players already deal with primed mods all the time, so a 18 cost mod is not really going to be that much of a difficult thing to fit into the capacity.

Semi offtopic: Honestly i wish mods like Serration, point strike, vital sense & reach were removed from the game and added as innate stats to gear so weapon modding benches had room to work with. Elemental mods, Fire rate, attack speed & multi shot are kind of a bit too unique to just be made into innate things since d.e. would have to redesign alot of stats if they just wanted to make norm mods like split chamber, Hell`s chamber & barrel diffusion to get gutted from the game, since we all know how plenty of us love to abuse the heck out of multi shot to help reach those absurd status proc spams. Very least then D.E. could maybe focus more on making creative mods to provide interesting tweaks to current guns, instead of letting trash like riven mods just be: *insert here for basically 2 to 3 mods worth of stats EZ*, clogging up the final mod slot in most build setups...

OR we could have the mod bench space to use more interesting mods like spring-loaded magazine with guns with quick reload speed and greatly benefit for simple spray playstyles like Baza used to be one of my favorite guns for a while back when it came out.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Avienas

[Teridax68]

4 minutes ago, Avienas said:

Sadly outright removing rivens would likely just result in too much backlash and a better & smaller backlash would just make them similar to amalgam serration and what not or generalize what each is for:

• The first idea would basically make them gurantee 1 particular stat constantly and cannot be stack with the original version sort of like Riven Serration. This would at least curve the power creep a tad and make them more about getting a riven that could overwrite a particular norm mod and have the random stats be something good.
• Second idea would likely just pair with the first since making rivens the equilvency to a add line bonus to a regular mod might as well just stream line it so rivens would be categorized as Primary/Secondary/Melee/Archgun if we want to keep it as simple as possible.
• One of the major faults that helped to the over complication, was making rivens more lined up for specific weapons which with so many weapons in general, turns it into a pseudo-gambling game to roll that good weapon and preferably a good polarity to work around and that is before we even consider the stats in general. Since no REAL demerits except turning popular weapon rivens into the equilvency of what Augur secrets is compared to Intensify, just a bonus damage mod that can stack with intensify, are even present, that is why rivens just turned into bonus serration mods for the most part. You arent restricted on using them and its easy enough to stack plenty of forma to make up for the chunky cost. Players already deal with primed mods all the time, so a 18 cost mod is not really going to be that much of a difficult thing to fit into the capacity.

Preventing Rivens from stacking with "baseline" mods could perhaps add a more interesting degree of choice, and honestly there would be no real difference compared to now if Rivens were condensed to just general weapon types (though that would basically just make us need only five Riven mods, or seven if you include modular weapons). I guess one means of addressing the system could be to make Rivens so undesirable in this respect that players would end up outright wanting to get rid of them, though in neither case is it really that fun a process for anyone involved.

[Avienas]

34 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Preventing Rivens from stacking with "baseline" mods could perhaps add a more interesting degree of choice, and honestly there would be no real difference compared to now if Rivens were condensed to just general weapon types (though that would basically just make us need only five Riven mods, or seven if you include modular weapons). I guess one means of addressing the system could be to make Rivens so undesirable in this respect that players would end up outright wanting to get rid of them, though in neither case is it really that fun a process for anyone involved.

Think i said it in a few other topics but i would say the main stickler of an issue is things like them becoming such a nasty trap of plat burning & likely some players have to desperate for them to be good enough in X content (such as eidolons and sometimes even the orb fights) so they can sufficiently do it at a relatively fast pace. Very least something needs to be done to make them more like a option bonus mod, not a direct stat stick bonus mod. Hence why amongst some of the suggestions i rambled about included just outright removing all direct damage effects on rivens and make it so rolling is more for getting a desirable combo of stats that improve the weapon(not just its raw stats), to save clutter or even outright change out the weapon usually works.

For example, a Lanka riven in this setup would aim more for lines for Fire rate & reload speed to speed up charge time & reduce down time while reloading which is normally solved via using Arcane momentum. In a Rubico`s case it would be nice to have sniper type rivens get an exclusive line of increasing the shot combo duration so less savy players have a better option then harkonar scope to work with, maybe also having reload speed reduction to off-set its usually chunky reload speed.

In more fun cases could be a riven that gives enough fire rate to let you enjoy using Tigris, in a way similar to a Hek. Many examples could be drawn, but at the very least, it would make rivens more desirable for improving practicality use and likely have them looked at on what they could change to the weapon, then just simply buffing its damage numbers straight up.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Avienas

[Teridax68]

4 minutes ago, Avienas said:

For example, a Lanka riven in this setup would aim more for lines for Fire rate & reload speed to speed up charge time & reduce down time while reloading which is normally solved via using Arcane momentum. In a Rubico`s case it would be nice to have sniper type rivens get an exclusive line of increasing the shot combo duration so less savy players have a better option then harkonar scope to work with, maybe also having reload speed reduction to off-set its usually chunky reload speed.

In more fun cases could be a riven that gives enough fire rate to let you enjoy using Tigris, in a way similar to a Hek. Many examples could be drawn, but at the very least, it would make rivens more desirable for improving practicality use and likely have them looked at on what they could change to the weapon, then just simply buffing its damage numbers straight up.

Adding a greater variety of stats, and perhaps also some conditional stat bonuses a la Argon Scope,could certainly diversify Riven mods, though unless a balance pass is done on current stat distributions, we are likely to fall into the same we have now, or some other meta, where only a few stats are truly desirable, especially if Riven dispositions cause Riven mods to remain superior overall in power compared to normal mods. If "meta" bonuses like damage or multishot were consistently understatted, whereas more unconventional bonuses were given a bit more of a nudge, that could certainly push players to experiment a little more.

[Avienas]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Adding a greater variety of stats, and perhaps also some conditional stat bonuses a la Argon Scope,could certainly diversify Riven mods, though unless a balance pass is done on current stat distributions, we are likely to fall into the same we have now, or some other meta, where only a few stats are truly desirable, especially if Riven dispositions cause Riven mods to remain superior overall in power compared to normal mods. If "meta" bonuses like damage or multishot were consistently understatted, whereas more unconventional bonuses were given a bit more of a nudge, that could certainly push players to experiment a little more.

Thats the issue, even if they are 30% the value of a regular mod when compared to serration/point strike/vital sense/etc, people would likely still slot in that riven for a 8th slot mod. Since most utillity based mods would be ignored on upping the overall damage per shot even if the DPS were to go up overall.

Its not an issue of riven stats being overpowered in general, but the fact they exist to give easy extra damage & combined with the multi line of free-rein damage stacking to boot to vastly boost the potential power they bring, They would need to be nerfed to very absurdly low stat values for damage stats to likely make people think otherwise, but the fact they can also cover multiple stats already raises the potential power they bring by magnitudes compared to other mods, meaning they either get nerfed to tiers as low as what Melee Prowess, that one garbo mod that only gives +15% status chance to somehow balance the fact rivens get multiple stat lines of various buffs.

Adding more variety of stats ONLY, would also just dillute it and make it more difficult for cycling too, hence why it would be a good idea to just purge direct damage stat bonuses, split up the weapon types a bit more: Rifle/Bow/Shotgun/Sniper rifle for primaries, pistol/throwing/etc. for secondary & one handed/dualwield/two-hander/etc. for melee(just as some examples). Basically this classification mostly serving to give some extra specific possible abilities on rivens for those specific types that could especially benefit them more then them being present on other weapon types, while semi-filling the gap left by the removal of direct damage potential.

P.S. Yes rivens are too strong but its more then just one reason, and till D.E. addresses them all i feel like they will continue to just ruin warframe by being basically a pester spam on market chat when people are too lazy to adhere to key terminologies when wtb and wts`ing, making it harder to have a nice market watching for things you want to sell/buy, plus them just adding into the extra speed cheese of finishing content so absurdly fast with one compared to doing it without a riven...well overall change needs to occur.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Avienas

[Jax_Cavalera]

Sorry it's taken me a bit to reply back, been hectic at work.

I love the direction the discussion has been taking, it helps emphasize some of the values a system like the one described can bring to the table (more on this later). One main take-away is the interest to push focus more towards the non-core stats (focusing on things like elemental types, weapon specs like fire rate, range, accuracy. physical types, etc.)

On 2019-07-18 at 12:00 AM, Avienas said:

Honestly i wish mods like Serration, point strike, vital sense & reach were removed from the game and added as innate stats to gear so weapon modding benches had room to work with. Elemental mods, Fire rate, attack speed & multi shot

On 2019-07-17 at 9:57 PM, Teridax68 said:

ability to reliably choose our Riven mod stats (which would be a significant improvement over the current slot machine model), that in turn begs the question of why we even need Riven mods with varied stats in the first place, because the most desirable stats are almost identical across all weapons. In the end, what players look for in Riven mods is more power, not new or interesting gameplay, which is why Rivens as a system have fundamentally failed in their purported goal of diversifying weapons.

On 2019-07-17 at 8:22 PM, (XB1)Foighne said:

Their instability makes me extremely hesitant to buy them from other players.

The proposed system would enable DE to apply a reduction to core stats on specific weapons so it would encourage players using those already powerful weapons to use a riven for tweaking the non-core functionality to generate unique and versatile builds.

I agree that rivens are too far gone now for DE to try remove them without losing a significant portion of the player-base. The best they can do is take what exists already and moving forwards change the way a player configures the stats on a riven mod, replacing the riven-rolling slot machine model with one that perhaps uses a recipe to change stats.

[Slade8ITA]

What if you build the riven mod, i mean you select your cards to put in using kuva then you have the riven mod and you unlock it with the challenge.

So you can't stack a riven mod with multyshot with a normal multyshot.

Using weapon affinity like a multyplier.

[Jax_Cavalera]

10 hours ago, Slade8ITA said:

you select your cards to put in using kuva then you have the riven mod and you unlock it with the challenge.

This is a really cool approach I hadn't considered, I really like how it would let you put together cards you already own to craft these custom combo-mods.

Thinking on it one thing that might hold it back is there not being mod cards for every stat we can currently get with a riven mod. This would reduce the chances of it encouraging as many diverse builds on already powerful weapons.

An example being +accuracy, all we have right now are mod cards that require you to first hit something before accuracy is improved which if it has terrible accuracy defeats the purpose of that kind of utility.

How would a system like this work to continue beefing up the weaker weapons that right now are nothing without +300% dmg or higher?

I agree really DE just need to buff weapons that fall into this category, and it seems their preference instead is to have Riven mods for the end game so you get to the end of everything then go back and start to experiment with those old dusty weapons that got you to top tier mastery breathing new life into them again. It just hasn't quite worked out that way yet due to how broken the current system is where they drop a weapon disposition and it cripples every single  stat by the same percentage etc.

[Jax_Cavalera]

On 2019-07-21 at 8:12 AM, Jax_Cavalera said:

I agree really DE just need to buff weapons that fall into this category

Sooo.. yeah I kind of 180 flipped on this (see point 1 below) after discussing quite a bit around the subject of how viable a riven system even is with @Teridax68 in another thread and wanted to bring some of the things I've gained a new perspective on from that discussion into this post as a result of the careful thought they have put into each of their responses.

The main points to note are (and this is still a work in progress)

1. Riven mods should support the principle of gaining power through progression
   • Giving players more options for weapons to choose from is a form of power only unlocked by obtaining a higher MR rank
2. Riven mods should not enable power creep on already powerful weapons
   • This may need more work in the OP.
3. Riven mods should still allow players a way to add some nice quality of life stats onto already powerful weapons without sacrificing or boosting the calculated DPS
4. Riven mods should allow players a way to bring the DPS of any weapon up to the exact same value.
   • This is really important as it means the trade value on a well configured riven will be higher than that of a rookie configuration
   • Getting that max DPS will require some understanding of how damage works and players may find they want a dedicated riven for each faction type

Most new players will have a preference to choose already powerful weapons vs grinding for transmutation / stat change recipes.

Veteran players can get that little bit more out of the game by selecting a weapon that best suits their playstyle regardless of what the default DPS on it would have been which in a lot of cases means they're dealing better DPS simply due to that synergy. The difference between a professional archer trying to use a single shot sniper rifle instead of their bow and arrow will come down to accuracy and flow, which combined will impact their overall DPS.
 

[Test-995]

On 2019-07-12 at 4:45 AM, peterc3 said:

Players making these choices invalidates the existence of the system.

Neat.

[Klokwerkaos]

i like the current riven system, even though i don't gamble, on rivens or otherwise.  it gets tweaked as needed and allows insanely non meta weapons to have a reason to be used.

i don't want it to change from what it is.

this also gives mid game players a way to make a decent amount of plat for people sitting on piles of 1000S plat like myself.

i don't sell rivens on any serious level, so i'm not profiting here and feeling like my source of plat will disappear.  i usually just hand them out in clan giveaways or sell them veiled because i can't be bothered to care enough to unlock them.

i've already gone through the process of earning the plat for any riven i want/need (and i mention this so everyone knows i know that struggle very clearly, because i already did it) because i don't mind paying for someone else to grind the kuva and roll something 500X  to me that's preferred over grinding kuva for 20 hours.  i even have back up rivens for when they eventually nerf my load outs into the ground.

the main reason i see people cry about rivens is because A) they don't have any good ones and want god tier power handed to them on a platter and B)... probably just A.

additionally rivens are never required for any content in the game, even though i would like to see that as part of some sort of endgame raid as a prerequisite to entry so there is actual aspirational content.

since people never need them and all they allow you to do is to be ultra lazy when farming crap, then there is no need to cry about it.

the main issue is so many people want to "beat the game" in under 100 or even 1000 hours and expect that to be how it works... but it doesn't.  in my book 1000 hours in mission is still newbie territory.  until someone is at least mr 16 and has 3000 in mission hours, there's a significantly high chance they have no clue about what they are talking about... yet everyone wants to "fix" everything in ways that directly benefit them and make a game that is functionally easier than candycrush even easier...

this isn't just rivens... but if you look at the forums you see people begging for buffs for free plat, for mesa, chroma, nidus, saryn, and other god tier gear... it's all because they want it to play like a paid game with 60 hour run time and reward them like that, but that's not how the business model works in warframe and they just refuse to accept that.

all in all, thumbs down on this rework.  since rivens are 100% optional and only serve to make players lazier, making them easier to access and thereby increasing power creep across the entire player base goes down as a flat NO in my book.  maybe one day i'd consider this if there was content that warranted having rivens, but there is not, not even close.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Klokwerkaos

[Jax_Cavalera]

On 2019-08-14 at 4:59 PM, Klokwerkaos said:

i've already gone through the process of earning the plat for any riven i want/need (and i mention this so everyone knows i know that struggle very clearly, because i already did it) because i don't mind paying for someone else to grind the kuva and roll something 500X  to me that's preferred over grinding kuva for 20 hours.  i even have back up rivens for when they eventually nerf my load outs into the ground.

So I sit in a fairly similar position to you on this point, I too have a lot of powerful rivens for various weapons, some meta some low tier whatever. I am happy grinding though for a bit of kuva here and there and also buying the occasional riven mod. That being said, my preference is to avoid DE having to keep nerfing certain riven mods into the ground simply due to the current system enabling power creep on already powerful gear. 

Getting rid of the RNG will allow DE to cap specific stats on a riven mod for individual weapons so players can either gain a little utility on already powerful weapons thanks to a riven mod, or they can boost the power of low tier weapons up to match the output on already powerful weapons if they enjoy the gameplay provided by a lower tier weapon (once it is punching at the same DPS to already powerful high tier ones).